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Posted: 10/29/2020 4:17:11 PM EDT
[#1]
With a little polishing and the snip of a spring, I made my Rock River two stage trigger as good and mostly better than any high priced one I have ever tried.
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Posted: 10/29/2020 4:19:39 PM EDT
[#2]
Just cause you got it light doesn't mean it's good, reliable or safe. If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it. Try a Geissele trigger and report back.
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Posted: 10/29/2020 4:25:13 PM EDT
[#3]
A stock AR trigger is case hardened, and the hardening can be REALLY thin. Typically you're going through this before you get a good pull.
This used to happen literally all the time back in the day, and worked great until it didn't, which could be 10/100/1000 rounds later. Back before reasonably priced aftermarket triggers, High Power competitors would get things like the compass lake trigger where a piece of tool steel had been added to the trigger. They still wore out WAY faster than desirable on a serious rifle. I think I got 3k out of one of those before it started doubling, and following the bolt. Basically you'd be slung up in prone (heavy rifle too) and you'd get a 2 round burst, and a dead trigger. Interestingly, the rise was so minimal that you'd get a high 9 or low 8 on the 2nd round at 200yds. In otherwords, go put 3k rounds through the polished trigger and see what happens. Then buy a larue or G trigger. |
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Posted: 10/29/2020 4:25:52 PM EDT
[#4]
Hopefully you did not sand through the surface hardening.
Spend $80.00 and get a LaRue 2 stage and call it good. |
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Posted: 10/29/2020 4:29:35 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hopefully you did not sand through the surface hardening. Spend $80.00 and get a LaRue 2 stage and call it good. Exactly. Good triggers aren't expensive because there are so many brands available. If you think they are expensive, how can you afford ammo? My time is fairly worthless and I am a DIY guy, but I would never waste time dicking around with a milspec trigger. I save them for putting in guns that I am selling.  
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Posted: 10/29/2020 4:48:33 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hopefully you did not sand through the surface hardening. Spend $80.00 and get a LaRue 2 stage and call it good. |
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Posted: 10/29/2020 5:01:56 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hopefully you did not sand through the surface hardening. Spend $80.00 and get a LaRue 2 stage and call it good. Si Senior... |
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Posted: 10/29/2020 5:04:49 PM EDT
[#8]
Another issue you may see is ignition reliability with the softer springs, depending on what caliber and ammo you are shooting.
Budget wise... if building, get a Joe Bob's "enhanced" LPK. Awesome out of the box trigger for a cheap LPK - better than PSA EPT. Also has a really nice ambi safety. If you've already built/already got a LPK or are replacing an existing installed unit, there are a few good stand alone basic triggers in the ~$75 range (they've been mentioned). The Hiperfire series starts at $100 (love my Hiperfire 24E). |
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Posted: 10/29/2020 5:13:49 PM EDT
[#9]
I would be concerned about accidental discharges.
When I do trigger jobs, it's with a special jig, and precision hone stones to hold an exact angle on the sear surface. You can't do that by sanding. You may have a rifle that if it get's bumped at the wrong angle, will go off. Just get an aftermarket trigger..... |
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Posted: 10/29/2020 6:04:41 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hopefully you did not sand through the surface hardening. Spend $80.00 and get a LaRue 2 stage and call it good. I'd spend a little more on a Gisele G2S but a LaRue MBT2 would do the trick as well. OP, once you do some shooting with a good trigger you won't go back, especially for $80-$120. |
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Posted: 10/29/2020 6:08:26 PM EDT
[#11]
I would be more concerned about accidental Full Auto.
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Posted: 10/29/2020 7:36:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Keep an eye on the EE here. I scored a brand new, but out of package, Geissele SSA-E for $125 shipped not long ago. I also see slightly used ones from time to time for good deals also.
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Posted: 10/29/2020 11:14:02 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Hello everyone, first post here and asking why buy expensive triggers. This is my first time playing with an AR and I bought an Anderson trigger and JP reduced power spring kit. I sanded and polished the sear surface and hammer engagement surfaces, using the light Anderson stainless hammer (33.5gm vs 42.5gm), trigger is Radical stock and installed the new springs as well as a pre travel reducing set screw over the grip screw. The end result is 42oz pull weight, .070" travel to break with no real creep and .045" overtravel. Why pay $150-$300 for a competition hammer? Most triggers in that price range have a higher pull weight and same or more travel. Are most people just not willing to work on a trigger themselves? Oliver https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Trigger_work_/4-544583/? |
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Posted: 10/29/2020 11:16:59 PM EDT
[#14]
I've never regretted spending the money on an SSA or SSA-E trigger. Lately I've been broke so I tried an ALG-ACT, and a friend let me shoot his gun with a Sionics Enhanced mil spec trigger. I like both of those a lot, and will probably use one or the other for future builds. I also have a LaRue MBT 2 stage. Nothing wrong with it, but the wider, flatter trigger face doesn't really do it for me.
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Posted: 10/30/2020 12:13:07 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just cause you got it light doesn't mean it's good, reliable or safe. If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it. Try a Geissele trigger and report back. |
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Posted: 10/30/2020 12:46:17 AM EDT
[#16]
All but 2 of my ar's have aftermarket trigger packs in them. I went with Velocity Precision 3.5lb and CMC 3.5lb. Hopefully next year I can drop a Fostech in the 2 with milspec triggers.
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Posted: 10/30/2020 7:00:02 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Hello everyone, first post here and asking why buy expensive triggers. This is my first time playing with an AR and I bought an Anderson trigger and JP reduced power spring kit. I sanded and polished the sear surface and hammer engagement surfaces, using the light Anderson stainless hammer (33.5gm vs 42.5gm), trigger is Radical stock and installed the new springs as well as a pre travel reducing set screw over the grip screw. The end result is 42oz pull weight, .070" travel to break with no real creep and .045" overtravel. Why pay $150-$300 for a competition hammer? Most triggers in that price range have a higher pull weight and same or more travel. Are most people just not willing to work on a trigger themselves? Oliver This sounds like $300 worth of labor Larue MBT-2S is The best AR trigger for the $ (undisputed) and is usually $70 shipped here on the EE. |
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Posted: 10/30/2020 10:10:53 AM EDT
[#18]
Buy the ALG-ACT is you want a decent stock trigger. We learned in the 1980's that AR triggers can be polished. We also learned that the won't last very long once you do that. GI triggers are best left alone. I put my standard GI triggers in a plastic bag for future use in "an emergency".
4.5 to 5 pound triggers that don't creep, have very little overtravel and reset firmly are golden. They are light enough for great accuracy and hold enough weight for day in/day out carry and use. All NRA/CMP tournaments require a minimum of 4.5 pounds or you can get DQ'd. If you see an obvious burr or rough spot on your GI trigger I wouldn't worry too much if you just dressed it and only it. Do not polish or stone the entire sear engagement surface. |
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Posted: 10/30/2020 10:15:30 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would be more concerned about accidental Full Auto. If that's what would happen all sorts of yahoos would be filing away. A polished standard GI trigger will last a little while, depending on how much metal was removed. The usually start shooting two rounds with each pull of the trigger once they are ruined forever. One shot if fired when you squeeze the trigger, another shot is fired when you release it. The rifle is not safe from that moment forward. |
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Posted: 10/30/2020 10:52:09 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Hello everyone, first post here and asking why buy expensive triggers. This is my first time playing with an AR and I bought an Anderson trigger and JP reduced power spring kit. I sanded and polished the sear surface and hammer engagement surfaces, using the light Anderson stainless hammer (33.5gm vs 42.5gm), trigger is Radical stock and installed the new springs as well as a pre travel reducing set screw over the grip screw. The end result is 42oz pull weight, .070" travel to break with no real creep and .045" overtravel. Why pay $150-$300 for a competition hammer? Most triggers in that price range have a higher pull weight and same or more travel. Are most people just not willing to work on a trigger themselves? Oliver It is easy to change the geometry and not know it. Did you do a function check? I won’t sand/polish anything on a trigger because I learned the hard way you do can easily do more harm than good and wear surfaces that can change the geometry over time. Springs are a different story, but I would rather get an ALG ACT or Schmidt tool and change the springs. A LaRue is $80 and an SSA is 175 used. They are made of tool steel and made correctly. Those grip set screws not the most reliable and Radical is not known for producing quality anything. There is a reason the mil spec triggers are the way they are. The surfaces are hardened and finished a certain way for a reason. Just wait until you get a bang when you don’t intend to or it fails a function check. At that point it goes in the trash. I am a certified armorer and so are about 3/4 of the people here and we are all telling you the same thing |
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Posted: 10/30/2020 10:55:29 AM EDT
[#21]
I just buy a good trigger (which aren't that expensive) and keep the stock one for spare.
The only way I could see modifying a trigger like that was if I enjoyed the tinkering aspect of it. |
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Posted: 10/30/2020 11:39:37 AM EDT
[#22]
Something I have noticed over the years, most cheap triggers are not made right, well at least not made to the drawing.
The sear nose is supposed to have a 0.010" to 0.013" radius on it. Most I have seen are ground sharp. |
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Posted: 10/30/2020 11:41:57 AM EDT
[#23]
While I am a G fanboy, in your situation a LaRue MBT-2S is clearly the correct choice.
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Posted: 10/30/2020 6:58:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Many members here talk about removing metal in the process.... clearly a bad idea. Even high speed polishing might do wrong to lightly hardened engagement surfaces. How about just using the white (hardest) stone out of a Lansky knife sharpening kit?? Flat and baby ass smooth with some oil and LIGHT pressure.
Also ......On a GI set I have used Graphite paste on the surfaces and used thumb pressure to work hammer .... like shooting it 250 times. Instant break in. H |
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Posted: 10/30/2020 9:16:34 PM EDT
[#25]
Fiddling with OEM fire control parts is a total crap shoot for results. For ~$60-90 bucks, the LaRue and ALG offerings do just about anything you could ask of them.
$300 for an AR trigger just doesn't make much sense anymore, unless you really want a TriggerTech or something. |
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Posted: 10/30/2020 9:56:26 PM EDT
[#26]
Just tested my untouched BCM PNT in my 9mm build....got several hundred rnds on it almost 6lbs. Absolutely nothing to shout about. Tried a JP Reliability spring kit.... it just went click with lighter hammer spr. Re installed BCM spr 100% I hit very little things 25 and in!
Yes you get what you pay for. Then... I just installed a POF 2 stage $200 drop in trig in a friend’s build... just under 4#..... maybe me not knowing how to work a 2stage trig. But 2+2=4 H |
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Posted: 10/31/2020 6:38:38 AM EDT
[#27]
I had a trigger “polished” by a Springfield guy
It went auto about a thousand rounds after I’ve stuck with quality triggers ever since |
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Posted: 10/31/2020 10:00:59 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hopefully you did not sand through the surface hardening. Spend $80.00 and get a LaRue 2 stage and call it good. Dont mess with a trigger.....buy the $80 Larue and call it a day. In the event of an accident, $80 is small compared to the $250K lawyer fees |
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Posted: 10/31/2020 11:06:27 AM EDT
[#29]
The LaRue MBT is without a doubt the best trigger for the money you can get.
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Posted: 10/31/2020 11:58:58 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a trigger “polished” by a Springfield guy It went auto about a thousand rounds after I’ve stuck with quality triggers ever since Yeah, Goggle Bill Springfield trigger problems |
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Posted: 10/31/2020 12:24:00 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A stock AR trigger is case hardened, and the hardening can be REALLY thin. Typically you're going through this before you get a good pull. This used to happen literally all the time back in the day, and worked great until it didn't, which could be 10/100/1000 rounds later. Back before reasonably priced aftermarket triggers, High Power competitors would get things like the compass lake trigger where a piece of tool steel had been added to the trigger. They still wore out WAY faster than desirable on a serious rifle. I think I got 3k out of one of those before it started doubling, and following the bolt. Basically you'd be slung up in prone (heavy rifle too) and you'd get a 2 round burst, and a dead trigger. Interestingly, the rise was so minimal that you'd get a high 9 or low 8 on the 2nd round at 200yds. In otherwords, go put 3k rounds through the polished trigger and see what happens. Then buy a larue or G trigger. Yep. The case on the entirety of the part is, I think, .010-.015", and I believe the sear notch is finish-ground after final heat-treating, so the case is even thinner in that area. |
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Posted: 10/31/2020 12:32:19 PM EDT
[#32]
OP, you should throw that trigger in the trash now. I would consider it ruined.
Plenty of good options out there. |
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Posted: 10/31/2020 12:35:35 PM EDT
[#33]
i do an exceptional stock trigger custom job that doesnt polish or remove any case hardened contact surface. but it doesnt come close to the feel of a good dropin single stage short reset trigger in the 3lb. i love pof one.
if all yer after is better..rework stock is a option. if yer after awesome, buy a dropin. |
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Posted: 10/31/2020 12:55:55 PM EDT
[#34]
Lol!
What was old is new again. It's funny how the same BS from 20 years ago seems to be coming back around again. |
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Posted: 10/31/2020 1:31:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, Goggle Bill Springfield trigger problems Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I had a trigger “polished” by a Springfield guy It went auto about a thousand rounds after I’ve stuck with quality triggers ever since Yeah, Goggle Bill Springfield trigger problems What this guy did to triggers was a disaster....He would spot weld on them, a big no-no and then rework, file....he messed up at least four RRA triggers of mine, never again. |
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Posted: 10/31/2020 3:27:46 PM EDT
[#36]
AR15/M16 hammer and trigger are case hardened, which is not very deep. Grind the engagement surfaces and you may end up with an unsafe setup.
Just because one can WECSOG doesn’t a gunsmith make. I personally shoot almost all Geissele with one LMT 2-stage. I prefer the Geissele SSA. With that said, if you have a budget, I would first prioritize shooting the gun. Buy ammo. Seek out training. Get a good sling. Buy sufficient mags. Then add a quality light. Then add a quality optic. Then add a Geissele, LMT, or LaRue two-stage fcg. Then swap out other less important things like the stock, handguard, charging handle, pistol grip, trigger guard, etc. |
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Posted: 10/31/2020 3:58:20 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hopefully you did not sand through the surface hardening. Spend $80.00 and get a LaRue 2 stage and call it good. THIS! ^^^^^^ |
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Posted: 10/31/2020 6:58:47 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What this guy did to triggers was a disaster....He would spot weld on them, a big no-no and then rework, file....he messed up at least four RRA triggers of mine, never again. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I had a trigger “polished” by a Springfield guy It went auto about a thousand rounds after I’ve stuck with quality triggers ever since Yeah, Goggle Bill Springfield trigger problems What this guy did to triggers was a disaster....He would spot weld on them, a big no-no and then rework, file....he messed up at least four RRA triggers of mine, never again. Oh geez...hillbilly metallurgy. |
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Posted: 10/31/2020 7:26:06 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: THIS! ^^^^^^ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hopefully you did not sand through the surface hardening. Spend $80.00 and get a LaRue 2 stage and call it good. THIS! ^^^^^^ I agree with all the other posters. If you are on a budget and want a nice trigger the MBT is the trigger for you. I have 2 SSAEs and 2 MBTs. I slightly prefer the SSAE but at the cost difference every future trigger will be a MBT. |
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Posted: 10/31/2020 10:22:46 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. The case on the entirety of the part is, I think, .010-.015", and I believe the sear notch is finish-ground after final heat-treating, so the case is even thinner in that area. 0.005" minimum to 0.009" maximum. |
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Posted: 10/31/2020 11:17:36 PM EDT
[#41]
The LaRue trigger is under $100 and pretty good for an AR trigger. Geisselle triggers are of course good, and can often be found for good sale prices. I've never seen a $400 AR trigger. As others have noted, polishing a stock mil-spec trigger can lead to issues as the round count on the trigger group increases. There was a guy in Colorado Springs who polished a lot of AR triggers, and pretty much everyone who bought one and then used it a lot ran into issues, like doubling.
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Posted: 10/31/2020 11:49:22 PM EDT
[#42]
As said the larue MBT is like $80 and well worth it. When I bought my SSA I got it for $187. I thought it was pretty great. My MBT is better and at their current cost... No Brainer. Get one.
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Posted: 11/2/2020 4:33:51 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: Hello everyone, first post here and asking why buy expensive triggers. This is my first time playing with an AR and I bought an Anderson trigger and JP reduced power spring kit. I sanded and polished the sear surface and hammer engagement surfaces, using the light Anderson stainless hammer (33.5gm vs 42.5gm), trigger is Radical stock and installed the new springs as well as a pre travel reducing set screw over the grip screw. The end result is 42oz pull weight, .070" travel to break with no real creep and .045" overtravel. Why pay $150-$300 for a competition hammer? Most triggers in that price range have a higher pull weight and same or more travel. Are most people just not willing to work on a trigger themselves? Oliver Others have correctly mentioned that the surface hardening depth is very shallow in some critical areas of the sear engagement on an AR trigger group. Typically a bit less than a mere one-thousandth of an inch. You really need to know what you are doing to stay out of trouble. I raise a separate concern - light hammer strikes with the JP Reduced Power Spring Kit. JP warns about this on their website and limits that kit to ammo with known thin anvil cup primers. 5.56 NATO ammo uses harder, thicker primers. Some civilian ammo has harder primers than others. Light hammer strikes are not a good thing for many reasons, especially in competition or under duty or HD situations. Geissele uses full power hammer springs in its SSA and SSA-E, and most other triggers that may see combat or duty situations. I love having a safe strong full power hammer drop on the 1 pound second stage of an SSA-E. This is done by engineering a different geometry, not a lighter hammer spring. Yes, it costs more. |
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Posted: 11/2/2020 4:48:24 PM EDT
[#44]
Double tap.
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Posted: 11/2/2020 7:13:58 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Others have correctly mentioned that the surface hardening depth is very shallow in some critical areas of the sear engagement on an AR trigger group. Typically a bit less than a mere one-thousandth of an inch. You really need to know what you are doing to stay out of trouble. I raise a separate concern - light hammer strikes with the JP Reduced Power Spring Kit. JP warns about this on their website and limits that kit to ammo with known thin anvil cup primers. 5.56 NATO ammo uses harder, thicker primers. Some civilian ammo has harder primers than others. Light hammer strikes are not a good thing for many reasons, especially in competition or under duty or HD situations. Geissele uses full power hammer springs in its SSA and SSA-E, and most other triggers that may see combat or duty situations. I love having a safe strong full power hammer drop on the 1 pound second stage of an SSA-E. This is done by engineering a different geometry, not a lighter hammer spring. Yes, it costs more. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hello everyone, first post here and asking why buy expensive triggers. This is my first time playing with an AR and I bought an Anderson trigger and JP reduced power spring kit. I sanded and polished the sear surface and hammer engagement surfaces, using the light Anderson stainless hammer (33.5gm vs 42.5gm), trigger is Radical stock and installed the new springs as well as a pre travel reducing set screw over the grip screw. The end result is 42oz pull weight, .070" travel to break with no real creep and .045" overtravel. Why pay $150-$300 for a competition hammer? Most triggers in that price range have a higher pull weight and same or more travel. Are most people just not willing to work on a trigger themselves? Oliver Others have correctly mentioned that the surface hardening depth is very shallow in some critical areas of the sear engagement on an AR trigger group. Typically a bit less than a mere one-thousandth of an inch. You really need to know what you are doing to stay out of trouble. I raise a separate concern - light hammer strikes with the JP Reduced Power Spring Kit. JP warns about this on their website and limits that kit to ammo with known thin anvil cup primers. 5.56 NATO ammo uses harder, thicker primers. Some civilian ammo has harder primers than others. Light hammer strikes are not a good thing for many reasons, especially in competition or under duty or HD situations. Geissele uses full power hammer springs in its SSA and SSA-E, and most other triggers that may see combat or duty situations. I love having a safe strong full power hammer drop on the 1 pound second stage of an SSA-E. This is done by engineering a different geometry, not a lighter hammer spring. Yes, it costs more. Either OP won't shoot enough rounds through his trigger for it to matter, or he's eventually going to get doubling and/or a dead trigger. This was all figured out the hard way 20 years ago. |
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