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Posted: 6/26/2021 8:45:29 PM EDT
I have what I thought was an easy problem to fix. I have a bolt that will not disengage (at all) from the breech. I'm looking for some ideas on how to unlock it besides the usual tactics (mortaring, rods, brass punch trying to move the bolt rearward, even tried to remove the barrel). The barrel will move off the upper but its only moving as much as the travel on the bolt will let it. I'm out of ideas and would appreciate any advice. The bcg moves slightly but is also limited to the travel allowed by the bolt. Thanks.
Update: The prying method has limited success. The bolt lugs are almost completely visible but it is also looking like there is something putting pressure downwards on it (lugs are rubbing on the feed ramps). However, it's now stuck to the point that the screwdrivers bent trying to get it back further. I can't see the casing but I'm thinking that it maybe popped a primer and that is wedged in the lugs near the top of the receiver.  Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached FileTried to take decent pics. |
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Posted: 6/26/2021 8:54:19 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: I have what I thought was an easy problem to fix. I have a bolt that will not disengage (at all) from the breech. I'm looking for some ideas on how to unlock it besides the usual tactics (mortaring, rods, brass punch trying to move the bolt rearward, even tried to remove the barrel). The barrel will move off the upper but its only moving as much as the travel on the bolt will let it. I'm out of ideas and would appreciate any advice. The bcg moves slightly but is also limited to the travel allowed by the bolt. Thanks. Is it the cam pin out of alignment and causing it where the bcg was installed without a firing pin? |
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Posted: 6/26/2021 8:56:54 PM EDT
[#2]
Is it loaded or empty? Tried firing?
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Posted: 6/26/2021 8:58:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is it loaded or empty? Tried firing? Empty casing in the chamber. |
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Posted: 6/26/2021 8:59:56 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is it the cam pin out of alignment and causing it where the bcg was installed without a firing pin? No. Kinda wish it was something like that. Bcg is (was) gtg. |
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Posted: 6/26/2021 9:02:08 PM EDT
[#5]
I'm wondering if something broke (extractor or popped primer?) and there's something wedged in there holding it in place.
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Posted: 6/26/2021 9:03:04 PM EDT
[#6]
It's not camming. Think why that would happen. Are you sure the firing pin is in there?
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Posted: 6/26/2021 9:16:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not camming. Think why that would happen. Are you sure the firing pin is in there? Visually confirmed. Current status: Upper removed from lower Hand guard removed Comp removed Gas system removed Barrel nut removed Bolt will move within what seems to be its normal travel in the bcg Barrel will pull from and rotate in the upper similarly Visual on bcg from below and ejection port show no visable damage and no missing parts. Failure occured on rd 10 of the mag. Just started to zero a new optic. Prior rd functioned normally <4 sec earlier. |
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Posted: 6/26/2021 9:17:44 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:...The barrel will move off the upper but its only moving as much as the travel on the bolt will let it.. this sentence makes no sense did you assemble it without the firing pin ? |
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Posted: 6/26/2021 9:28:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: this sentence makes no sense did you assemble it without the firing pin ? Agreed. Let me try again. Pulling the barrel away from the upper as if you are removing it. Imagine the bcg is connected to the barrel without the upper being there and the bolt is in battery. You can only move the barrel as much as the bolt can move within the bcg before it becomes out of battery. I need it to be out of battery but it will not turn loose. |
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Posted: 6/26/2021 9:37:46 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:... Pulling the barrel away from the upper as if you are removing it. ... the barrel and the upper should be solidly tightened together with the barrel nut torqued to 30-80ft/lbs. there should be no movement of the barrel in the upper receiver. I think what you're trying to say is - the bolt is locked in the barrel extension, and the carrier pin is not camming the bolt enough to allow it to twist, unlock, and move rearward ? is that what you are trying to say ? I'll ask again...did you assemble it without the firing pin ? Asking because the firing pin holds the cam pin in the correct position. |
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Posted: 6/26/2021 9:41:57 PM EDT
[#11]
Verify that the barrel extension pin is still in the upper channel and that the barrel is properly attached to the barrel extension. Snug the barrel nut back down on the upper. Slide the carrier as far back as you can get it, spray the inside of the barrel extension with a light lube/ oil, then slide a flat head screw driver in the gap of each side of the carrier so that you have two flat blades in the upper, touching the back face of the barrel extension. Use the two screw drivers to leverage the carrier to the fully unlocked position and then remove the BCG.
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Posted: 6/26/2021 9:45:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Verify that the barrel extension pin is still in the upper channel and that the barrel is properly attached to the barrel extension. Snug the barrel nut back down on the upper. Slide the carrier as far back as you can get it, spray with a light lube/ oil, then slide a flat head screw driver in the gap of each side of the carrier so that you have two flat blades in the upper, touching the back face of the barrel extension. Use the two screw drivers to leverage the carrier to the fully unlocked position and then remove the BCG. Will try this in the morning when get back to the shop. Thank you. Will update tomorrow night when I get home. |
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Posted: 6/26/2021 9:50:46 PM EDT
[#13]
If the BCG is properly assembled, I am going with a broken bolt or extractor. Most likely a broken lug that is jamming the rotation of the bolt. I got nothing for fixing that...
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Posted: 6/26/2021 9:54:34 PM EDT
[#14]
Yeah, i am wondering if the extension rotated
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Posted: 6/26/2021 10:01:47 PM EDT
[#15]
You can’t try pushing the bolt back from the barrel. The whole idea of the camming is to lock the bolt into the extension to prevent its movement. You’d have to apply force to the BCG, not the bolt. I don’t think removing the gas tube and trying to hit the gas key is a great idea though.
I’m thinking you have a stuck case and the extractor is holding on tight to the rim. Do you have a freezer chest? Maybe chilling it will shrink it enough to free it up. Maybe getting some penetrating oil in there. Liberally applied brake cleaner might chill it as well, but I’d worry what it would do to your finish. |
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Posted: 6/26/2021 10:12:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Could pour or spray penetrating oil down the barrel let it stand and soak overnight then brass solid rod and tap it back or get a bigger hammer.
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Posted: 6/26/2021 10:14:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Could pour or spray penetrating oil down the barrel let it stand and soak overnight then brass solid rod and tap it back or get a bigger hammer. WIth the lugs still locked, you can't hammer that thing out. |
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Posted: 6/26/2021 10:28:22 PM EDT
[#18]
Might not be able to run a rod down the barrel and hammer it out but there is still a chance that tapping it lightly might break loose what ever is jamming it so might be worth a try if other efforts fail.
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Posted: 6/26/2021 10:39:50 PM EDT
[#19]
Sounds like you need this tool.
https://www.ustoolanddesign.com/products/manual-bolt-extraction-device?variant=18467151239 |
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Posted: 6/26/2021 10:51:50 PM EDT
[#20]
I had a stray primer get into the cam slot once and jam the bolt, but i had some movement of the carrier. Working on it inverted freed the primer to fall out. If it isn't some exotic upper, I'm tempted to start hack sawing to hopefully save the BCG and barrel.
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Posted: 6/26/2021 11:01:15 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a stray primer get into the cam slot once and jam the bolt, but i had some movement of the carrier. Working on it inverted freed the primer to fall out. If it isn't some exotic upper, I'm tempted to start hack sawing to hopefully save the BCG and barrel. That seems rather drastic! I’d say pay a gunsmith before you bust out the sawzall! |
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Posted: 6/27/2021 12:46:00 AM EDT
[#22]
is the empty case in the chamber because you fired the round? or did you try to close the bolt on a previously fired case? if the latter you have an oversize case wedged partly in the chamber. they can really wedge in tight(don't ask how i know). yes the pry with a screwdriver should work, though you might end up with a scratch on the finish.
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Posted: 6/27/2021 10:29:32 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like you need this tool. https://www.ustoolanddesign.com/products/manual-bolt-extraction-device?variant=18467151239 Those things do work. And they are hefty..... Provided the extractor isn't Fubar'd.  |
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Posted: 6/27/2021 10:36:42 AM EDT
[#24]
Update in OP
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Posted: 6/27/2021 10:41:55 AM EDT
[#25]
Sometimes a popped primer can drop it the cam pin area of the carrier and stop it from full movement in the slot. Turning the upper so the slot in the carrier is down to see if it will drop out if there is one in that area.
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Posted: 6/27/2021 11:05:57 AM EDT
[#26]
I had a similar situation in the recent past. I ended up tapping on the charging handle with a hammer and it eventually came loose. My problem was a damaged gas tube and the lack of gas did not allow the bolt to disengage from the barrel extension lugs.
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Posted: 6/28/2021 7:22:07 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: I have what I thought was an easy problem to fix. I have a bolt that will not disengage (at all) from the breech. I'm looking for some ideas on how to unlock it besides the usual tactics (mortaring, rods, brass punch trying to move the bolt rearward, even tried to remove the barrel). The barrel will move off the upper but its only moving as much as the travel on the bolt will let it. I'm out of ideas and would appreciate any advice. The bcg moves slightly but is also limited to the travel allowed by the bolt. Thanks. Update: The prying method has limited success. The bolt lugs are almost completely visible but it is also looking like there is something putting pressure downwards on it (lugs are rubbing on the feed ramps). However, it's now stuck to the point that the screwdrivers bent trying to get it back further. I can't see the casing but I'm thinking that it maybe popped a primer and that is wedged in the lugs near the top of the receiver. @OP With the extra slack in there now, can you remove the barrel nut and get the barrel extension index pin out of the upper? If so you can try a strap wrench on the barrel(or use the m203 flats for a wrench with a strap of thin leather to protect the barrel) to rotate the barrel with more force and back and forth to see if you can break it free. |
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Posted: 6/28/2021 7:33:22 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a similar situation in the recent past. I ended up tapping on the charging handle with a hammer and it eventually came loose. My problem was a damaged gas tube and the lack of gas did not allow the bolt to disengage from the barrel extension lugs. An adjustable gas block can be turned off and the bolt will still manually rotate out of battery - unless something is jamming it in place. |
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Posted: 6/28/2021 7:36:51 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That seems rather drastic! I'd say pay a gunsmith before you bust out the sawzall! |
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Posted: 6/28/2021 12:29:07 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @OP With the extra slack in there now, can you remove the barrel nut and get the barrel extension index pin out of the upper? If so you can try a strap wrench on the barrel(or use the m203 flats for a wrench with a strap of thin leather to protect the barrel) to rotate the barrel with more force and back and forth to see if you can break it free. Yes but all it did was pull the bcg with it or the barrel will move back into the index slot when prying the bcg rearward. I was hoping that I could get it back far enough that whatever is jammed in the lugs will release and fall out. I don't have the equipment at home and I only work at the range on weekends so I get to wait until Sat to try again. Either way we could not get enough leverage to hold the bcg in place and move the barrel. |
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Posted: 6/28/2021 2:50:55 PM EDT
[#31]
@OP
Are these a value line of parts or do you have something like V7/Colt/BCM/Noveske ect that you are working on? Who assembled the parts? What ammo was being shot? (Winchester by chance?) |
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Posted: 6/28/2021 7:12:17 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes but all it did was pull the bcg with it or the barrel will move back into the index slot when prying the bcg rearward. I was hoping that I could get it back far enough that whatever is jammed in the lugs will release and fall out. I don't have the equipment at home and I only work at the range on weekends so I get to wait until Sat to try again. Either way we could not get enough leverage to hold the bcg in place and move the barrel. One extra on this, if the index pin is clear, you don't need to rotate in a way that cams the bolt in. Just rotate until it starts to spin. At that point you will have released the bind and the bolt lugs will be rotating in the open channel between the barrel face and the rear face of the extension lugs.(there's a complete gap there to allow locking and unlocking if the lugs) |
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Posted: 6/28/2021 10:37:12 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @OP Are these a value line of parts or do you have something like V7/Colt/BCM/Noveske ect that you are working on? Who assembled the parts? What ammo was being shot? (Winchester by chance?) It's a mutt. Wilson combat upper, rise arm bcg, ballistic advantage barrel, black river tac custom tube. Pandemic special. That would be myself and our armorer. It was working fine until it wasn't. Unknown on ammo. It was pulled from our shop stash. The biggest chance is frontier but there have been some other busted boxes added into the mix but no reload/reman. I don't know for certain which brand this was so I'm not going to venture a guess and be wrong on a public forum. |
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Posted: 6/28/2021 10:44:14 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One extra on this, if the index pin is clear, you don't need to rotate in a way that cams the bolt in. Just rotate until it starts to spin. At that point you will have released the bind and the bolt lugs will be rotating in the open channel between the barrel face and the rear face of the extension lugs.(there's a complete gap there to allow locking and unlocking if the lugs) There is a foreign body that is putting downward pressure on the bolt to the point the it is rubbing the feed ramps. The bolt is in the open channel now (prying with two acrewdrivers) but it is stuck in place to the point that the screwdrivers are visibly flexing and the bcg will not move any further rearward. |
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Posted: 6/29/2021 8:24:24 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is a foreign body that is putting downward pressure on the bolt to the point the it is rubbing the feed ramps. The bolt is in the open channel now (prying with two acrewdrivers) but it is stuck in place to the point that the screwdrivers are visibly flexing and the bcg will not move any further rearward. A few photos may help. Any indication that the extractor is deformed or out of position? |
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Posted: 6/29/2021 11:34:26 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A few photos may help. Any indication that the extractor is deformed or out of position? Forgot to take some Sunday. None yet but don't have a visual of it and whatever is binding the bcg is still there. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 1:30:41 PM EDT
[#37]
Pics in OP
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Posted: 7/3/2021 1:43:23 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: I have what I thought was an easy problem to fix. I have a bolt that will not disengage (at all) from the breech. I'm looking for some ideas on how to unlock it besides the usual tactics (mortaring, rods, brass punch trying to move the bolt rearward, even tried to remove the barrel). The barrel will move off the upper but its only moving as much as the travel on the bolt will let it. I'm out of ideas and would appreciate any advice. The bcg moves slightly but is also limited to the travel allowed by the bolt. Thanks. Update: The prying method has limited success. The bolt lugs are almost completely visible but it is also looking like there is something putting pressure downwards on it (lugs are rubbing on the feed ramps). However, it's now stuck to the point that the screwdrivers bent trying to get it back further. I can't see the casing but I'm thinking that it maybe popped a primer and that is wedged in the lugs near the top of the receiver.https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/518633/20210703_130658_jpg-2000262.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/518633/20210703_130546_jpg-2000263.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/518633/20210703_130753_jpg-2000264.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/518633/20210703_130541_jpg-2000265.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/518633/20210703_130532_jpg-2000266.JPG Tried to take decent pics. You should have pried through the magwell end and not the ejection port. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 2:44:52 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You should have pried through the magwell end and not the ejection port. We tried magwell and then removed the lower to see if we could get in there more. Ejection port was a brass punch at the same time that it was being mag well pried. I think someone may have tried to pry through the port this past week but I wasn't there. The pic showing the visible lugs is literally as far back as we can get it. I tried moving it back and forth again but it still stops at the same point so whatever is in there must be stuck in place and not moving forward with the bcg. |
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Posted: 9/19/2021 1:59:56 PM EDT
[#40]
So, after 2 months, what ever became of this ?
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:08:58 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So, after 2 months, what ever became of this ? Since the rifle was technically being serviced, the shop is going for replacement cost of the barrel, upper, and bcg from the ammo manufacturer (contracted local company). So it's sitting in a cage waiting on that to happen. I've already replaced everything and completed the build so whatever I get off this is seed money for the next one. If the ammo guys balk, the shop will pick up the tab. |
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