Better quality end mill than 5D Tactical?

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Posted: 9/6/2018 11:48:33 AM EDT

I was working on my 2nd lower a few minutes ago and after the 2nd pass the end mill tip snapped off. I sprayed plenty of WD40, had vacuumed out all the splinters, measured to the right notch, etc. And a few seconds into the pass the tip snapped off. It was 5D Tactical's end/finishing mill. I haven't contacted them about it because I don't expect they'll warranty it. Even though the jig is lifetime, it's pretty clear the end mill isn't. Has anyone else had this happen and 5D replaced it?

If looking at other brands, are any built more sturdy than 5D's? Or is 5D's top of the line?

EDIT: I can see it's causing some confusion, but I am also using my 5D Tactical Jig for 80% lowers.

Thanks!

Posted: 9/6/2018 11:57:10 AM EDT

[#1]

The problem, in this case, is (in my opinion) the depth of the cuts as indicated on the jig is too deep.

I have has a similar problem but it is usually problematic in the deeper cuts and when making the final cut to the trigger opening.

The best way to deal with this is to make all your cuts shallower than the jig increments.

The tines on the mill are less likely to "bite in" and "kick back" (breaking cutting times) if the cuts are shallower.

Posted: 9/6/2018 12:02:08 PM EDT

[#2]

Look up fruity lowers. but in answer to your question any carbide bit = top choice look for a roughing bit then get a finishing. Aaaaaand cant pass up solid gutter advice. Go slower with shallow strokes working your way deeper the machine will thank you.

double flutes will cut slower but wont get bogged down with the aluminum.

https://www.amazon.com/HUHAO-Aluminum-Milling-Spiral-Cutting/dp/B07CN8W72P/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1536249823&sr=8-15&keywords=carbide+2+flute+milling+bits

https://www.amazon.com/JERRAY-Carbide-Coated-Overall-Diameter/dp/B07D64T1V8/ref=sr_1_34?ie=UTF8&qid=1536249902&sr=8-34&keywords=carbide+2+flute+milling+bits

Posted: 9/6/2018 12:03:09 PM EDT

[#3]

There are end mills out there that are compatible with the 5D jig and better quality.

Shallow up your cuts as suggested and lose the WD40, all that is is a cleaner. Use a quality cutting oil.

Posted: 9/6/2018 12:26:38 PM EDT

[#4]

The cutting oil vs WD40 is one hundred percent right - it needs to be thicker to help move the chips out of the way and prevent the binding up. This is a big thing in metalwork - cooling and lubricating aluminum while machining is important for cutting tool life. I've actually had aluminum melt on to the cutting tool on hole cutters with 1/8 inch sheet. (Which sounds like it should be impossible).

Posted: 9/6/2018 12:28:55 PM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:
The cutting oil vs WD40 is one hundred percent right - it needs to be thicker to help move the chips out of the way and prevent the binding up. This is a big thing in metalwork - cooling and lubricating aluminum while machining is important for cutting tool life. I've actually had aluminum melt on to the cutting tool on hole cutters with 1/8 inch sheet. (Which sounds like it should be impossible).

View Quote

What's a good make/model for cutting oil?

Thanks

Posted: 9/6/2018 12:30:50 PM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:
Look up fruity lowers. but in answer to your question any carbide bit = top choice look for a roughing bit then get a finishing. Aaaaaand cant pass up solid gutter advice. Go slower with shallow strokes working your way deeper the machine will thank you.

double flutes will cut slower but wont get bogged down with the aluminum.

https://www.amazon.com/HUHAO-Aluminum-Milling-Spiral-Cutting/dp/B07CN8W72P/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1536249823&sr=8-15&keywords=carbide+2+flute+milling+bits

https://www.amazon.com/JERRAY-Carbide-Coated-Overall-Diameter/dp/B07D64T1V8/ref=sr_1_34?ie=UTF8&qid=1536249902&sr=8-34&keywords=carbide+2+flute+milling+bits

View Quote

I'm confused, not only by the fuck-ton of fractions in the ads and the technicality of the part, but also by the whole roughing bit/finishing bit. Are you actually suggesting that I swap bits for EVERY PASS to use one and then the other? If not, what are you advising?

Thanks!

Posted: 9/6/2018 12:39:49 PM EDT

[#7]

Speed (RPM of spindle), feed (in. per min., or how fast your cutting along your path), depth of cut (how much material is removed), will all help to prolong or shorten the life of the endmill.

WD40 is fine. I've worked in machine shops for years. WD40 on aluminum is more common than overpriced A9 cutting oil (the green stuff).

Are you using a drill press or an actual milling machine? Also, high speed steel is what you want for aluminum. If will deflect (bend) before it breaks, like carbide.

Posted: 9/6/2018 12:44:43 PM EDT

[#8]

Quote History

Quoted:

I'm confused, not only by the fuck-ton of fractions in the ads and the technicality of the part, but also by the whole roughing bit/finishing bit. Are you actually suggesting that I swap bits for EVERY PASS to use one and then the other? If not, what are you advising?

Thanks!

View Quote

there are ENDLESS types of endmills. But typically, a roughing endmill will have small ridges or reliefs along the cutting edge. This will aid in longer tool life when "hogging" or removing larger amounts of material. Make your first few passes with a roughing cutter, then your finish passes with a "Normal" type endmill.

Posted: 9/6/2018 1:08:55 PM EDT

[#9]

CRC HD True Tap cutting oil will work and is CHEAP

Posted: 9/6/2018 1:12:22 PM EDT

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:

there are ENDLESS types of endmills. But typically, a roughing endmill will have small ridges or reliefs along the cutting edge. This will aid in longer tool life when "hogging" or removing larger amounts of material. Make your first few passes with a roughing cutter, then your finish passes with a "Normal" type endmill.

View Quote

So maybe the first 3-4 passes with the rough then switch to the finishing for everything down to the trigger hole?

I don't understand why this would help anything but I just want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying.

Thanks

Posted: 9/6/2018 1:21:04 PM EDT

[#11]

When I did mine I cut dry and used air to evacuate chips.

I don't know what comes with these kits but use the biggest mill you have as long as you can.

If I recall I used a half inch mill for roughing everything I could. Then step down where need be to finish cut radii. Then shallow cuts (.010") for the trigger slot and that is all that smallest mill did.

Posted: 9/6/2018 1:29:49 PM EDT

[#12]

One of the best cutting fluids for AL is plain white (un-dyed) Kerosene. I use it often when doing turning work.

I would use a soluble oil coolant for deep pocket milling in a pump sprayer. I use Rustlick WS5050 which is high dollar when bandsawing tool steels. It is also what is in the tanks on the CNC machines.

Posted: 9/6/2018 1:46:30 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
One of the best cutting fluids for AL is plain white (un-dyed) Kerosene. I use it often when doing turning work.

I would use a soluble oil coolant for deep pocket milling in a pump sprayer. I use Rustlick WS5050 which is high dollar when bandsawing tool steels. It is also what is in the tanks on the CNC machines.

View Quote

True ^^^

Also:

Posted: 9/6/2018 2:02:56 PM EDT

[#14]

Well one thing is for sure, your mill didn't break because of the type of coolant/cutting fluid you used.

Your feed was too fast or your cut was too deep or the part moved or the cutter flexed. Or you could have recut chips if they weren't cleared out but it sounds like this was before you made many chips.

Posted: 9/6/2018 2:03:40 PM EDT

[#15]

When I am doing them, I use a 3/8" two flute mill on my milling machine, gives a good cut and does not break as easy as some of the 4 flutes I have used, I also have used 3 flutes that work well.

One thing you need to remember on router milling speed plays a very important part, to slow or to fast, you will snap a bit or break a cutting tooth.

One thng I have seen a lot of guys do with a router set up is they don't keep the bottom plate 100% level and that binds the milling bit and blewy, snapped bit. Keep your movement steady, don't jerk and keep the router level.

I use all kinds of different oils when cutting, I have used transmission oil, WD, brown cutting oil and now on aluminum I use lard and kerosene mixed and it works good for anything I have milled or turned on the lathe, albeit it does smoke and smell terrible.

You just need to keep a firm steady repeatable motion when doing your lowers and you will learn the right way for your equipment which leads to less broken bits. But remember even expensive bits break, my partner has machines that he uses to mill 2" and 3" slots with in one pass and still breaks bits.

The only constant in milling operations is you will break bits.

Posted: 9/6/2018 2:04:59 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:

So maybe the first 3-4 passes with the rough then switch to the finishing for everything down to the trigger hole?

I don't understand why this would help anything but I just want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying.

Thanks

View Quote

The amount of passes does not matter. The depth of cut and how fast you are moving along does. I only use a roughing endmill when removing A LOT of material to speed things up.

Also, how rigid is your machine and work holding fixture? This also matters.

This can not be explained in a few words. Machining takes many many years to be skillfull at. But for something as simple as milling an 80% lower, you can get away with a lot.

I can recommend speeds, tooling, etc... but I will need to know what machine you are using and how you are holding the part. A picture is best.

Posted: 9/6/2018 2:31:37 PM EDT

[#17]

Mine broke on the second pass... I ordered 2 replacements... I plan to cut at least half of the indicated hash marks this time around

Posted: 9/6/2018 3:07:07 PM EDT

[#18]

Carbide won't flex much before it breaks. Binding, flexing, loading, shock and chatter will cause it to break. Having snapped carbide in milling machines with very minimal stress, I'm amazed it works at all in a hand held router. Obviously thousands can and have made it work with great results, but care and precautions must be made.

Posted: 9/6/2018 3:26:12 PM EDT

[#19]

sen2two, he’s using a hand held Router.

That’s how you cut a lower using the 5D Tactical Pro jig.

And yes, I’ve blown carbide bits. It’s usually because I wasn’t FIRMLY holding the router and keeping it FLAT against the jig.

Posted: 9/6/2018 4:35:44 PM EDT

[#20]

I'm using the DeWalt 661 and was able to finish number 1 cut with the new mill at half the gauge marks.... I did start at the shelf instead of the trigger hole

Posted: 9/6/2018 4:44:44 PM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:

I'm confused, not only by the fuck-ton of fractions in the ads and the technicality of the part, but also by the whole roughing bit/finishing bit. Are you actually suggesting that I swap bits for EVERY PASS to use one and then the other? If not, what are you advising?

Thanks!

View Quote

Roughing bits cut faster but leave a unpolished rough edge. finishing bits do just that finish and leave a clean smooth cut. use rough first the final pass with finishing. if speed is your goal remember slow is smooth and smooth is fast

oh and get some tap magic like everyone else is saying WD inst for cutting it works but not well.

Posted: 9/6/2018 5:01:40 PM EDT

[#22]

well this is obviously not a machinist thread, and I have no idea of what you're trying to mill,
but I will say this. WD40 is fine for Aluminum....its just a bit expensive to use on an industrial scale.
if you're pocketing a hole, and you can drill out a bulk of the center mass, do it. less work for the endmill.
watch your feeds&speeds along with your depth of cut.

Posted: 9/6/2018 5:43:35 PM EDT

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:
well this is obviously not a machinist thread, and I have no idea of what you're trying to mill,
but I will say this. WD40 is fine for Aluminum....its just a bit expensive to use on an industrial scale.
if you're pocketing a hole, and you can drill out a bulk of the center mass, do it. less work for the endmill.
watch your feeds&speeds along with your depth of cut.

View Quote

99% of those that cut 80% lowers are not machinists..

Posted: 9/6/2018 6:16:13 PM EDT

[#24]

It’s obvious from several responses that some members aren’t aware of what a router jig is, so here is a video showing one being used...

You CAN’T use a roughing mill bit then switch to a finish mill bit.

Failed To Load Title

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=791_LafOw4A

Posted: 9/6/2018 7:40:25 PM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:

99% of those that cut 80% lowers are not machinists..

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And DaveP1 is dead on that most of us who cut out “80%” lowers aren’t machinists.

Most use a jig and a router or a drill press, some have even cut them using a Dremel tool.

Hell the only thing I use my mini mill for anymore is cutting out Polymer80 Glock frames..

I can cut out an AR-15 lower quicker with my 5D Tactical Pro jig than I can using my mini mill.

Posted: 9/7/2018 6:46:13 AM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:
It’s obvious from several responses that some members aren’t aware of what a router jig is, so here is a video showing one being used...

You CAN’T use a roughing mill bit then switch to a finish mill bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=791_LafOw4A

View Quote

Thanks for chiming in.

You said you busted end mills.....what did/do you replace with? I need to buy one ASAP because I have an awesome pistol kit en route from PSA and now no lower to build it with.

If you aren't able to provide a direct link to it, please let me know what specs I should be searching for on ebay/amazon.

Thanks!

Posted: 9/7/2018 6:59:35 AM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:

Thanks for chiming in.

You said you busted end mills.....what did/do you replace with? I need to buy one ASAP because I have an awesome pistol kit en route from PSA and now no lower to build it with.

If you aren't able to provide a direct link to it, please let me know what specs I should be searching for on ebay/amazon.

Thanks!

View Quote

You can find them on both ebay as well as amazon, use the search terms 5 D mill bit and you can even find Modulus mill bits on both, don't believe they are the actual brands, but you will find others that are compatible, I have bought a lot of them over the last couple of years.

Posted: 9/7/2018 7:00:48 AM EDT

[#28]

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Quoted:

You can find them on both ebay as well as amazon, use the search terms 5 D mill bit and you can even find Modulus mill bits on both, don't believe they are the actual brands, but you will find others that are compatible, I have bought a lot of them over the last couple of years.

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Ok will do thanks!

Posted: 9/7/2018 8:22:51 AM EDT

[#29]

I see in this thread PursuitSS talked about just replacing the bit inside the special housing. The vid shows a torch being used to heat it up (expand) and then when it cools off (contracts) it holds the bit. Is this the right bit to fit inside the housing? Seems way too long. If not, please share the type that I should get.

I see on 5D Tactical's site it says "Please Note: ReadyMILL 5D Tactical end mill requires the use of our custom end mill. This end mill is custom designed and manufactured for 5D Tactical, and is not available for sale elsewhere by any tooling supplier or manufacturer." What's the difference between theirs and the others I'm seeing on ebay?

Thanks!

Posted: 9/7/2018 11:48:39 AM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
I see in this thread PursuitSS talked about just replacing the bit inside the special housing. The vid shows a torch being used to heat it up (expand) and then when it cools off (contracts) it holds the bit. Is this the right bit to fit inside the housing? Seems way too long. If not, please share the type that I should get.

I see on 5D Tactical's site it says "Please Note: ReadyMILL 5D Tactical end mill requires the use of our custom end mill. This end mill is custom designed and manufactured for 5D Tactical, and is not available for sale elsewhere by any tooling supplier or manufacturer." What's the difference between theirs and the others I'm seeing on ebay?

Thanks!

View Quote

Pretty sure the others do not have the ability to attach directly to the router

Posted: 9/7/2018 11:55:31 AM EDT

[#31]

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Quoted:

Pretty sure the others do not have the ability to attach directly to the router

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Did you click the second link? It shows how to replace it....but yes, the housing/holder is specific to 5D Tactical.

At this point I need to find out what is so unique about their end mill that other end mills don't have.

Posted: 9/7/2018 12:43:31 PM EDT

[#32]

Cheap ebay end mills. A good one will cost you more than the jig itself and you don't want to bust one of them.

I thought you drill out the majority of the metal with a regular drill bit first?

Posted: 9/7/2018 12:57:42 PM EDT

[#33]

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Quoted:
Cheap ebay end mills. A good one will cost you more than the jig itself and you don't want to bust one of them.

I thought you drill out the majority of the metal with a regular drill bit first?

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Not with the 5D jig. You use a drill for a starter hole and the pins/selector switch. Other than that it's router/end mill.

I have seen other jigs with dozens of guide holes where, yes, you use a trill to remove material but that's not how this one works.

Posted: 9/7/2018 1:27:54 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
Cheap ebay end mills. A good one will cost you more than the jig itself and you don't want to bust one of them.

I thought you drill out the majority of the metal with a regular drill bit first?

View Quote

Not in the sizes we are talking about. Also not all of the sellers are selling "cheap" mill bits. My partner who is a machinist by trade and has been over 50 years now, but a lot of closeout lots from distributors and other shops that have closed.

Not everything on ebay is cheap or for that matter junk.

Posted: 9/7/2018 1:31:52 PM EDT

[#35]

Quote History

Quoted:

Not in the sizes we are talking about. Also not all of the sellers are selling "cheap" mill bits. My partner who is a machinist by trade and has been over 50 years now, but a lot of closeout lots from distributors and other shops that have closed.

Not everything on ebay is cheap or for that matter junk.

View Quote

These two would seem to be options and neither appear to be junk...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-16-3-FLUTE-SINGLE-END-STUB-LENGTH-TiAlN-CARBIDE-END-MILL/222224354329?hash=item33bd9a8c19:g:6IIAAOSw-itXt2GX

and

http://www.atlascuttingtools.com/products/5%7B47%7D16%22-Carbide-End-Mill-3-Flute-Stub-Uncoated.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjww8jcBRDZARIsAJGCSGs0SIzqjOLB5tT9E1R850PvwNoK-F3JZ6jBTFe-0YJlHa-pcu-z45YaAspeEALw_wcB

EDIT: Here's another one.

EDIT2: ...and another.

EDIT3: Best deal so far

Only question with the 2nd one is if the 3/8 "shank size" would fit as a direct replacement in the holder since it's not matching exactly the 5/16" diameter talked about on 5D's site.

Thanks

Posted: 9/7/2018 1:44:49 PM EDT

[#36]

I would think if it will fit the collet and is the same diameter at the cutting end of the 5d it would work... trouble I see is that none I found would fit the collet... you could turn it on a lathe but it think the reason they make it thread onto the router is to eliminate the mill from coming out of a collet that could loosen up.

I was almost finished with step 2 with the new end mill when it started raining... so this time around I've been adjusting half the indicated marks working slowly in a clockwise pattern and being careful that the end mill is not touching the trigger hole when I start the router...
Also I'm now keeping one hand on the top of the router applying light pressure and the other on the guide plate

Posted: 9/7/2018 1:52:57 PM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:
I would think if it will fit the collet and is the same diameter at the cutting end of the 5d it would work... trouble I see is that none I found would fit the collet... you could turn it on a lathe but it think the reason they make it thread onto the router is to eliminate the mill from coming out of a collet that could loosen up.

I was almost finished with step 2 with the new end mill when it started raining... so this time around I've been adjusting half the indicated marks working slowly in a clockwise pattern and being careful that the end mill is not touching the trigger hole when I start the router...
Also I'm now keeping one hand on the top of the router applying light pressure and the other on the guide plate

View Quote

Wait...are you calling the holder the collet and are responding to the post directly above yours or something different? I was asking whether the 3/8 (being larger than 5/16") would fit the holder.

Thanks

Posted: 9/7/2018 2:15:43 PM EDT

[#38]

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Quoted:

I was asking whether the 3/8 (being larger than 5/16") would fit the holder.

Thanks

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No, it will not fit. The hole is 5/16”.

It must be a straight wall 5/16” mill bit.

Posted: 9/7/2018 2:21:15 PM EDT

[#39]

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Quoted:

No, it will not fit. The hole is 5/16”.

It must be a straight wall 5/16” mill bit.

View Quote

Correct

Posted: 9/7/2018 2:21:27 PM EDT

[#40]

I can't get the second link to open, I can tell you for a fact that first one is fine as I own a half dozen of them that I use on both aluminum as well as some steel projects I work on and it is a 5/16 3 flute, which is my preferred mill bit on lowers.

Posted: 9/7/2018 2:27:11 PM EDT

[#41]

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Quoted:

No, it will not fit. The hole is 5/16”.

It must be a straight wall 5/16” mill bit.

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Thanks for that. The one I labeled "best deal so far", I talked to the seller and they will ship 3 for 5.15 first class or 7.20 priority. I'll be ordering 3 but that's a hell of a lot cheaper than $28 plus shipping each from 5D.

EDIT: Best deal so far.

Posted: 9/7/2018 2:47:41 PM EDT

[#42]

That one should work fine, just watch your router speed as well as you hand speed when milling and it should work out for ya.

Posted: 9/7/2018 2:50:23 PM EDT

[#43]

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Quoted:
That one should work fine, just watch your router speed as well as you hand speed when milling and it should work out for ya.

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Thanks. Just ordered 3 of them....under $38 shipped!

Posted: 9/7/2018 5:32:35 PM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:

Thanks. Just ordered 3 of them....under $38 shipped!

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Post up a pic when you get them .... cant get the links to work...

Posted: 9/7/2018 5:47:53 PM EDT

[#45]

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Quoted:

Post up a pic when you get them .... cant get the links to work...

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Search ".3125" 5/16" 3 FLUTE SINGLE END STUB LENGTH CARBIDE END MILL" on ebay. It's the one that's $10.92 plus shipping.

Posted: 9/7/2018 5:49:30 PM EDT

[#46]

Quote History

Quoted:
Thanks for chiming in.

You said you busted end mills.....what did/do you replace with? I need to buy one ASAP because I have an awesome pistol kit en route from PSA and now no lower to build it with.

If you aren't able to provide a direct link to it, please let me know what specs I should be searching for on ebay/amazon.

Thanks!

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
It’s obvious from several responses that some members aren’t aware of what a router jig is, so here is a video showing one being used...

You CAN’T use a roughing mill bit then switch to a finish mill bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=791_LafOw4A

Thanks for chiming in.

You said you busted end mills.....what did/do you replace with? I need to buy one ASAP because I have an awesome pistol kit en route from PSA and now no lower to build it with.

If you aren't able to provide a direct link to it, please let me know what specs I should be searching for on ebay/amazon.

Thanks!

Harbor Freight sells end mills but they probably suck and you have to buy a set.

Order from grizzly and you will have them in a few days

ETA: disregard it is a special endmill or you can buy endmills on amazon

Posted: 9/7/2018 6:12:53 PM EDT

[#47]

How many flutes on the endmills?

2, 3 or 4?

2 is okay, 3 is beter
use 4 for finish pass, not for hogging out material.

Posted: 9/7/2018 6:27:07 PM EDT

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:
How many flutes on the endmills?

2, 3 or 4?

2 is okay, 3 is beter
use 4 for finish pass, not for hogging out material.

View Quote

The ones I bought have 3 flutes.

Now should I still get a cutting oil or is WD-40 fine for aluminum?

Thanks!

Posted: 9/7/2018 6:40:51 PM EDT

[#49]

Quote History

Quoted:

Harbor Freight sells end mills but they probably suck and you have to buy a set.

Order from grizzly and you will have them in a few days

ETA: disregard it is a special endmill or you can buy endmills on amazon

View Quote

I have a set of the HF end mills and they work fine for certain things, they are the same damn mill bits that Grizzly sells as well, I know this for a fact, because the wood cases have the exact same markings on them, they cut the same, they are the same with the tin coating on them. The HF set is a larger set with more bits and you can catch them on sale and also use a coupon, so they are not that expensive.

The only reason I don't use the HF bits on my lowers is because they are very short shank mill bits, hence no flax, but they also don't allow you to fully mill a lower with them, especially if you are using a jig.

Buy the HF end mills or order a set of Grizzly and wait a few days, but they are not the ones you want to use with a router to mill a lower, neither one of them.

The 3 flute end mills you ordered will work just fine to do quite a few lowers.

WD will work just fine for what you are doing, if you are really worried about it, drop by Home Depot and pick up a bottle of brown cutting oil like is used on pipe, it works two, or go down to the local grocery store, pick up a pound of lard and mix some white gas or kerosene in it.

Milling a lower is not rocket science and when you get the hang of it, you can do one well in under an hour..