So you got a 2-10 will only use at 6x max? Because that's fair? Ok...

Not buying the reticle argument, that's user preference and there're options for everyone's preference. Pretty sure we stopped doing mixed moa/mil reticles and turrets ten years ago as well if I'm reading that correctly.

Not going to argue magnification need as that's user preference as well. For the record, I am NOT against more magnification, I know full well how much space there is out West.

Still using two seperate optics with two seperate cheekwelds to do the what one can do and ignoring that a 1-6x24 LPVO in an aero mount can weigh as little as 22.24 ounces (if not less), versus MPVO+MRDS which will weigh 4 ounes more (if not minimum) easily.

So, trade-offs, which are worth more to whom?

You edited as I was typing.

No sir, that is two different cheekwelds.

Why do I need to break my weld to use the zoom function?

I'm running a Razor 1-6 on my game gun but I always find myself coming back to EOTech for my work rifles.  I've tried various 1-4/6 LPVOs and have the option of issued Aimpoints but for me nothing works as well as the holographic circle of doom.

For me at least 95% of my use is 50 yards and in and involves vehicles, building searches, and room clearing so it is somewhat "specialized" and not general purpose.  But I can easily add a QD magnifier if needed.  The eyebox limitations of the LPVOs vs. the RDS or holographic sight become apparent working while moving in and around vehicles and tight spaces.  They can be overcome but require more time and effort at a time when speed and accuracy are most important.

I don't care how strong/fit you are.  A lighter rifle is a better rifle in the long term.  There's a big difference between running a 90 second stage v. several hours/days of humping gear and still being effective.  I've already got a suppressor hanging off the end so any weight savings elsewhere is welcome.

I voted RDS and magnifier.

I've tried multiple LPVOs. With those I only ever use them on 1x or maxed out. Using scopes, you have to remember what setting you're on. Nothing like being in a hurry to take down a cougar harassing your animals, but as soon as you shoulder your rifle it was planted at 6x with the cat at maybe 30 yards... it got away

I've been digging a red dot and fixed irons so much on my SBR that I'm swapping out the LPVO on my 16" for a RD. Magnifier on a QD will be next. I have a cheapo mag that is quicker to flip to the side than adjusting the mag ring on a scope, and a good QD one will keep that rifle under 6 pounds while off, and just over when mounted.

Longest range where I live 300 yards. If SHTF or TEOTWAWKI occurs, I'm bugging out to the mountains behind my house where 100 yards is very rare.

My scope is in a Larue LT-104.  That is absolute co-witness equivalent height.

The DPP is at 45 degrees, also in a riser for absolute co-witness height.

Regardless of what magnification I have the scope at, I twist my wrist 45 degrees and the red dot comes up, directly over bore, same height.  Cheek weld is not broken.  Instant 1x.

And, yes,  I used 6x for exit pupil to compare both scopes, because you must compare at the same magnification,.  The 40mm objective absolutely smokes a 24mm objective in low light and eyebox.  It's about as good in that respect at 9x as a 24mm is at 6x, but with 50% greater magnification, when needed.

I agree that reticle choice is personal, but there is no way a BDC reticle and capped turrets on most LPVOs can do precision shooting using hold off or hold over data and expect to hit within one MOA at varying distances beyond 300;yards.  Minute-of-man may be all you need, but mid-powered mil/mil scopes can do far better if the rifle, ammo and shooter are up to it.

Shot a coyote like this. I thought I was on 2-4x, but was on 6x. Luckily I made it work, but it coulda gone poorly if he were closer. "Just look at it" "Pay attention". Okay, don't short-stroke the 870.

I've taken deer this way, but this time there was too much movement and it threw me off. Put a round in the dirt instead trying to make sure I didn't hit any of my critters.

I put my sbr with a dot by the door now. Magnification is great when you anticipate it, not so much when you're in a hurry. Lesson learned!

This guy gets it.

For me the "best jack-of-all-trades optic" depends mostly on engagement range/target type/size, and how much weight you'll tolerate.

My 16" currently wears an NX8 1-8 in a Geissele mount, with Reptillia ROF 90 and RM06 (27oz optic package).

The 11.5" I'm building will eventually get an TA-33 with a piggybacked RM06 (under 13oz).

The 7" .300BO build I have planned down the road will get the G33/Unity FTC magnifier mount (~12oz?) behind a T2 on the Unity mount (8.8oz).

I think this (3:043:05 timestamp) is the best example I've seen about why a magnified optic could be useful even during a non-shtf defensive use:



The same logic applies to hitting a partially exposed or smaller animal while hunting.

Games- LPVO

Self defense- 24/7 on red dot

TEOTWAWKI- ACOG

SHTF- Binoculars

I'm not an expert, but this is my experience so far.  I have a 1-8x LVPO FFP with offset 45-degree red-dot on one of my rifles.  The red-dot + mount is 2.5 oz.  LVPO is 17.4oz & mount is about 4oz.

Cons:  The problem is the red-dot always is a bit awkward to use.  I have to rotate my wrists, and then look for the dot.  That's a little slower, and somewhat uncomfortable.  My current setup is the red-dot offset 45-degrees to the right & I'm right-handed.  I also put my front-grip on a 45-degree mount (to the left) which seemed to help slightly.  I think I've tried everything in terms of red-dot position, including 45-left, 45-right, and (using a ring-mount) anywhere relative to the scope.  Putting it on top of the scope means I can't get good cheek-contact with the stock.  On the left-side of the scope, I have to tilt my head slightly.  In the end, I've settled for the standard 45-right offset.   A couple other cons are LVPO will never be a red-dot in terms of there's always an eye-box & very few "affordable" LVPO's can be left on for 50k hours.  When viewing the red-dot, the LVPO also somewhat obstructs your wider vision, enough that it would suck in a room-clearing scenario.

Pros: If I'm engaging 50+ yards though, it'd say it's almost perfect though.  The overall setup is relatively lightweight for what it offers.  The dual-sights mean I have a backup sight.  The 1-8x is pretty decent zoom, enough to handle ~800 yards. I can also switch between 1x and 8x (or whatever zoom) touching my scope.  It's great for sighting a target with the red-dot and then precision with the scope.  Considering this gun is better suited for range (20-inch 6.5 Grendel AR15) than close-quarters, I haven't felt motivated to change the setup.  It's lightweight for the size (I think 7.5lbs empty), but it's nowhere near as good for "room clearing" as my slightly heavier, but short-barreled rifle.

I also have a 2nd rifle, with a 1-8x SFP LVPO.  It's a lightweight 16-inch AR15, intended for 0 to 250 yards.  In hindsight, I strongly wish i had done a red-dot & magnifier combo and will probably go that route soon.  Reasons being: I don't need high magnification.  An always-on red dot with no eye-box issues would be very nice.  Being able to ditch weight would be nice.  The rifle feels like a feather, when swapping the LVPO to just a red-dot.

It is abundantly clear that a lot of members do not understand the meaning of "jack of all trades"

Too literal?
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For me, it's an LPVO with an offset dot. My current setup is a razor 1-10 with offset holosun 507. I can use it from point blank to 800yds with ease.

What is the objective lens diameter on those 1-8x LPVOs?  I'll bet the exit pupil and eye box at 8x are not very user friendly and low light performance is . . . poor.   The optical quality will need to be very high (think Kahles, Zeiss Victory, Nightforce, or similar) to have any chance of helping out the dimming image and diminishing resolving power, unless those scopes have 36-40mm objectives or larger.

There are certain basic laws of optical physics that work against low power variables that push magnification beyond 6x, or even 4x in low light with the typical 24mm objective lens (or even 28mm at 8x).   If you spend much time behind optical glass tiny exit pupils get old, especially if shooting in lower ambient light.

I agree 100%.  If you have an offset RDS there is no need for a 1x scope so why not bump the lower end up to 2x or more so you can have a 40mm+ objective?  Better light transmission, better eyebox, and you can even have a higher top end than 10x without penalty.  Even a compact 3-9 with an offset RDS would make a better, and lighter, package.

That's not necessarily correct. I treat a dot like a back up optic. For NV use, it's nice having an offset dot along with the LPVO for passive aiming. It's doable with the lpvo, but a bit easier with a dot of sorts.

I don't doubt that there are instances where it has merit, but for the most part I think that if you employ an offset RDS you are better served with a magnified primary that has a larger objective than an LPVO for the sake of low light efficiency and eyebox if nothing else.  I don't do nods so that doesn't even register for me.  LPVO's make for a shitty RDS for the most part, but for a few exceptions.

I voted LPVO but I think adding an offset red dot makes good sense for certain applications.

I would agree with that on some of the cheaper options but as far as optical quality and image resolution goes, some LPVOs give a better sight picture than a quality RDS.

I probably didn't word my post well.  My intended complaint was when looking through the red-dot, the scope to the side obstructs my field-of-view slightly.

To answer your question though, both are Atibal XP8's, one FFP, the other SFP.  Eyebox is okay, but could use room for improvement.  I agree 24mm is limiting.  I have no real complaints about the LVPO, for what I spent (about $380 FFP, $270 SFP). I had practically zero experience when I bought them.  At some point I'll probably spend $2k on an optic, but I think I made the right decision to get a "for now" optics and get some experience first.  For example, I might actually want to ditch the LVPO, and go for 3x12x40mm + offset red-dot.  Alternatively, I might ditch LVPOs, and do a reddot-maginifier-combo.

I still think the best jack of all trades would be a varible power scope like a 2-15 and an offset red dot.  The march optics 1.5-15 would be perfect if not for the $2600 price tag.

If you just want "the best optical clarity and capability possible" you could spend 25 grand on mounts and optics and have a great high power scope on top with an offset LPVOs, offset thermal, AND a piggybacked red dot.  Sure, the gun will look line an internet meme and be fragile and weigh 25lbs... but it will have the best optical capability money can buy. But then when you say "jack of all trades", you have to consider things like weight, size, ruggedness, clarity, etc.  

ACOG and Red dot on top... Dollar for dollar an ACOG with an RMR on top gives tier-1 optical clarity and great reticles, albeit at a slightly lower max magnification, while giving you just about the best of everything else you want on a combat-ready carbine.

Faster transitions to 1X and lighter than most LPVOs.
Not the size/weight of a brick like most LPVO & Dots.
Simpler and more rugged than an LPVO and Red Dot.

When that video first came out, I thought the exact thing.  It was the first time I had seen one used in a live first-contact responder role.  Solid and did the job clean.

I have a G33 and recently acquired the ADM Flik5.  So far I like it a lot.  Actually more than my G33.  Going to still thump it around a little more, but I am thinking this is going to be my go-to.  I am tempted to get a Vortex Gen III and see if can jump on a rifle and stay there with a purpose, but for right now, RDS with FTS magnifier is boss.

@MHeemeyer post some pictures through the flik5 if you can. I looked at that for awhile but there is no information on the dang thing.

A best "Jack of All Trades" optic setup has to work from muzzle to max range of cartridge. For 5.56mm, let's just say 500m. It has to work near & far and during the day, night & in IR spectrum.

I want to have 1X for close in targets and higher magnification for long range target ID/discrimination. I also want a mil scale (not a BDC) for long range holds.

An ACOG or fixed mag optic alone is just too tight IMO, and I say that after carrying one in combat. It will slow you down when trying to acquire a partially concealed target that blends into the background at close range in limited visibility. ACOGs are durable as hell, but I hate the eye relief. If I have ACOG mounted far enough to the rear to have proper eye relief, then I am banging helmet into the top mounted RMR.

It doesn't matter if you can only see a couple hundred yards in your AO. Can you tell what's at the base of that tree, if the person in that window has a weapon, or who is poking around that vehicle at 150 yards without magnification? No, you can't.

It's dark out half the time. NODs have been around for a while, are pretty common, and I can't imagine a context in which I wouldn't use them. I want a passive aiming capability. So that rules out LPVO only, irons only, and LPVO with offset irons.

For me, the LPVO with offset RDS fits the bill. I would run the LPVO as primary sighting system on a lower power (1-2 based on environment) and dial in for target ID and longer shots with hold needed. The RDS would be used passive with NODs, when I'm at high mag with primary optic and a close target appears, and as my backup sighting if the primary failed.

A RDS with magnifier could fit the bill as well, but I prefer the optical qualities of the LPVO.

LPVO’s at 1X are not created equal, so speed varies greatly. Unlike at magnification, there’s no easy formula to figure out exit pupil. It’s not always a direct comparison, so let’s use the Credo line as an example.

The 1-6 has a 1X exit pupil of 12mm, but the 1-4 is 17mm. That means there’s a (technical) reticle loss difference of 3mm on the 1-4 compared to an Aimpoint T2, versus 8mm extra loss of sight picture for the 1-6.

Zeiss is a very poor 9mm on their 1-6, and one of the best things about the Razor is they have their’s set at 16mm which is the highest I’ve seen for a 1-6.

1-4’s will usually have better 1X exit pupils, but not everything here is equal either. A Steiner P4xi is only 12mm, and the Leupold VXR is 16mm despite even being 1.25X in a 20mm lens to the Steiner’s 1X in a 24mm lens.

Case in point, some LPVO’s will be red dot quick at 1X while others will not. It’s something I don’t see mentioned often that makes a massive impact on performance. A good low mag exit pupil with a daylight bright dot will be just as fast and forgiving as a red dot, unless you shoot way outside of the eye relief.

No it doesn't. Training required to achieve that speed can vary, though. I am not at the level, nor do I train people at that level, but people who do and have quantified this will tell you that the NX8 or MK6 is just as fast as a RDS until you get into some really wonky positions. That's the thing. People keep wanting a LPVO to be a RDS. It never will. It simply cannot. They are different tools. This is neither good nor bad, just an inescapable fact.

Thank you.  You have made an important point about actual exit pupil versus calculated exit pupil.  In theory it is objective lens diameter divided by magnification.  However, in practice the usable objective lens size may  be less than stated in the manufacturer's specs, and magnification at either 1x or at full zoom may be different that specs.   This matters as the larger exit pupil will permit more lateral or off center eye positioning before losing the image.  And, at higher power, if true exit pupil gets smaller than your own exit pupil, especially in low light, the image will dim.  For most of us, thats about 5mm, maybe 6mm with really good eyes.

If you don’t think exit pupils on LPVO’s vary borderline crazy levels at 1X, try out some different models.

They can have the same exit pupil error capability as a T2, or they can be like looking through a straw at 1X.

Eye relief on the other hand is a factor. If you’re talking about an angle obstacle on a 3gun course, it might slow you down a little. Real world stuff, the right optic will not be slower and there are many documented cases of that being proven.

I believe it comes down to lens spacing and the angle of the field of view, but I’m not that smart and no one goes into that detail. There is a point at which it evens out and the formula works, but I’m not even sure that happens at 2X or that it’s even linear across different magnification ranges.

And totally agree on that last line. Extra magnification is nice but I’m a bigger fan of 1-4’s on a 5.56 all things considered, that being one of them.

Never thought about that but that does sound like it would suck.

I know for a fact they do, as you state. It was speed i was commenting on.

LPVO’s can be as fast as a red dot. Not because of training, because of how the optic is built.

I’d bet my gun collection more people have missed steel at 150 yards with a red dot than people have shot under cars 100 fold. They still have trade offs, but modern LPVO’s are inching closer and closer.

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I do not have it in front of me right now.  I will tell you I like this A LOT better than my G33.  The glass is super-clear and just like the overall package.

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"Jack of all trades" for an AR-15 typegun is an LPVO of some sort.  Modern LPVOs are getting very good and after looking at damn near everything, but "jack-of-all-trades" set up is a high quality FFP LPVO with low profile offset irons although offset RDS works very well too.  For me, the offset sights are really mostly there for redundancy.  The scope lives on 1x and gets dialed up when I have time.  I ended up settling on the Vortex Razor Gen3 1-10x24 eventually, although that gets occasionally re-evaluated as new stuff comes out.

I had a discussion of LPVOs and relevant subjects last year during one of my bi-weekly livecasts:
https://youtu.be/w2ViTDM5ypM?t=543

For offset sights, my Gen3 Razor has the Zero Bravo REOS sights.  They are perfectly capable for up close and personal distances if the scope happens to be on higher mag.

I also have a couple of sets of XS Sights' XTI2 DXT sights that turned out to be more capable than I originally expected and are really growing on me.  Offset RDS is probably faster, expecially in low light, but XTI2 is close and lower profile.

ILya

Comes in handy at times

Ive ran a lot of setups, heres my opinion.

Fixed prism (acog) - good bombproof setup, bindon aiming works well once you learn it. Slower up close, not quite enough to make precision adjustments at distance.
Acog/red dot. - closes the gap up close. Still doesn't do distance that well.
Lpvo (1-6/8) - bulkier than above but the tech of today makes it possible to have red dot like ability and capable of man-sized hits at 556 max ranges. slow to transition between distances.
lpvo/ red dot - fixes the transition speed issue, but kinda negates the need for the 1x on the lpvo,
Mid range 2-10/3-9 - capable of making precision shots at range, utilizing the bindon aiming concept its capable close in. slow to transition, however.
Mid range / red dot - allows precision adjustments at range, red dot facilitates close work. Downside is it's a little bulkier.
Red dot + magnifier - great for a <300 gun.

My setup is a USO 3-12 FFP (going to a trijicon credo 2-10 or 3-9) and an offset reddot on a 14.1 I want to be able to make hits with max standoff of my round. It also allows for observation capabilities and the red dot is fast indoors. being 6'3" a 14.1 fits me well and with decades behind a 14.5 im ok with it. Ballistics stable to 800m and optics support that.

Wives gun is a 12.5 with a red dot and mag. Her level of training doesn't facilitate longer ranges yet, and the red dot is forgiving to position.

I recently tried offset irons (again) with my lpvo setup. They did not stay.

Which irons did you try?

Conventional offset irons did not work well for me, but XTI2 express-style sights from XS worked surprisingly well.

ILya

Round 1 was troy-meant for close engagements when optic was magnified. I'm good at snap shots so this was slow and pointless for me.

Round 2 was cheapo leapers-meant to "scan" while optic is magnified, then rotate back for the shot. I could make it work but it was slower than just both eyes open into one eye closed like I'm used to.

Like many others have said, it depends on your desired use.  For my uses, it comes down to an ACOG with a piggyback RMR, or a LPVO with the same.  Allows close range use, passive NV and longer range use, in a relatively lightweight package.

I have the G45 now so I'm no longer in the market, but an image through the glass sof the flik 5 is nowhere on the internet. You could be the first. Lol.

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Yes it does.  I think I'm going to add an RMR up o the top picatinny for passive NV with my PVS14 or daytime use.

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The 3 or 4x ACOG it still works for me better than anything else as far as an all rounder. If you were to graph it's effectiveness at CQB, long range, weight, and cost it would be straight middle of the road across all of them when compared against the alternatives; Being only 4x it isn't as easy out past 300 yards as  6-10x LPVO. It's slower in closer distances than a red dot or an LPVO. It excels at mid range 50-200 yards. And it is lighter than almost any LPVO but heavier than a red dot and about the same as a red dot + magnifier. It is the true jack of all trades master of none IMO.

Everything else is a master of something and horrible at something else. Red dots by themselves are better in close but worse at longer ranges. Red Dots with a magnifier are better at longer ranges but not that much better because most don't have any kind of BDC and when you and a magnifier you are right about the same weight of an ACOG. LPVOs seem like a better compromise but it comes at the expense of weight because they are heavier (some are twice the weight of an ACOG) and how much better they are depends on quality of glass, reticle, illumination style and brightness etc so one in the same class as an ACOG is $1400+

I’m setting up a TA31 & offset H2.
For my 0-200m goals, I’m thinking (hoping) this will be the optimal setup; for me.
Ran 1-4/1-6’s in the past & currently just run the H2.