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Posted: 4/25/2021 9:19:00 PM EDT
Building a 12" 45ACP AR with a pistol brace. I will be mounting a Vortex Razor Micro Red Dot for now (have one on-hand). It will eventually be replaced with a Trijicon MRO. Optic / mount is the same as the one pictured below.
Intended use for this set-up is primarily HD, with range use / toy secondary. I was throwing around the idea of BUIS, and if I really need them. I was thinking if I did, it would probably be best if they were fixed, as I wouldn't want to waste time trying to fiddle with them if I ever needed them. The mount im using with the Razor is a lower 1/3 cowitness height (in case that matters) and is a lever-throw QD. I really like the Daniel Defense fixed sights (have used them before on a 15-22). Not only do they look really nice, but are really nice quality. Now sure if this would be money well spent, or if this is just a waste. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks  
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Posted: 4/25/2021 9:35:12 PM EDT
[#1]
Depends. On scoped guns I don't bother as I don't use QD mounts (simply because I don't trust them returning to zero) and have never had a scope failure. On RDS guns I do simply because I am conditioned to due to batteries, but with today's technology and 50k hours even that is questionable. Now, if I were "operating" I would likely have redundancies, but I am not nor to I pretend to be on message boards.
With RDS and BUIS I prefer flip up sights and co-witness so my cheek weld and head position is consistent. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 9:40:04 PM EDT
[#2]
I like having a fixed front sight and folding rear sight when using HWS or red dots, even if I have it paired with a magnifier. But when using a strictly magnified optic, flip ups for both front and rear. I have BUIS as often as I can.
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Posted: 4/25/2021 9:53:04 PM EDT
[#3]
For your purposes I’d put a higher quality optic on it and forget the irons.
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Posted: 4/25/2021 9:59:37 PM EDT
[#4]
No BUIS
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Posted: 4/25/2021 10:06:14 PM EDT
[#5]
Buis are irrelevant. Sure people can come up with hypothetical situations in which the arm chair operator is going to take a round to the scope and then fling it off to deploy the buis or something absurd, but that's all make believe.
If it makes you feel cozy then sure, knock yourself out. For anyone who has actually deployed in the last ten years, no one uses buis. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 10:06:55 PM EDT
[#6]
For a magnified optic I say offset dot or offset irons, for a red dot I say irons are a must. If it’s a HD gun they’re mandatory because you may forget to turn your optic on, it may run out, but at least leave your front sight fixed or have it flipped up for a worst case scenario.
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Posted: 4/25/2021 10:12:08 PM EDT
[#7]
I dunno. Good buis only and you have a weapon dead accurate out to as far as you want to take it.
You going to engage targets 50 plus yards? A good iron sight will take you a long way. Shit lots of dead critters on my 30-30 iron only, and BB/pellet guns from when I was a kid. I dunno you could build a hell or a rifle with iron sights and have it be lethal as shit to 50yards. Reliable as hell too. What do I know though |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 10:30:27 PM EDT
[#8]
On eye relief optics, no. On Red dot, yes, at least fixed front sight, fixed both if I'm never planning to run a magnifier, lower third mount. I'm actually all about FSB now, given that I've got all the magnified optics I want, wish there were more barrels already setup for it for sale.
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Posted: 4/25/2021 10:32:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Depends on it's use. Range toy/competition gun naw. Home Defense/Personal Defense Yes! If it could be pushed into HD/PD yes (thinking of a really nice AR pistol or the PCC).
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Posted: 4/25/2021 11:14:11 PM EDT
[#10]
High end RDS like an Aimpoint? Not 100% necessary.
That said, I have them on everything |
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Posted: 4/26/2021 12:07:08 AM EDT
[#11]
Range toys? Not necessary. Duty or HD guns? Mandatory. It's cheap insurance.
I've seen plenty of electronic sights die during training courses, especially battery-hungry Eotechs. |
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Posted: 4/26/2021 3:49:57 AM EDT
[#12]
I would have no issues running an Aimpoint without backup sights. You know when it’s time to change the battery when the highest setting isn’t bright enough for daylight. Plenty of warning if you check it regularly.
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Posted: 4/26/2021 7:14:44 AM EDT
[#13]
Thanks all for the input. I think I'm going to have to bump the MRO up the priority list.
I just remembered this sight has an auto-shut-off, so I cannot leave it on while it's in the safe. The MRO I want to upgrade to has a 5-year claimed battery life, and does not have the auto-shut-off. |
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Posted: 4/26/2021 7:30:48 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Buis are irrelevant. Sure people can come up with hypothetical situations in which the arm chair operator is going to take a round to the scope and then fling it off to deploy the buis or something absurd, but that's all make believe. If it makes you feel cozy then sure, knock yourself out. For anyone who has actually deployed in the last ten years, no one uses buis. I HAVE deployed in the last ten years, and yes, I had BUIS. I have used BUIS in combat, twice, because the optic failed (EoTech), and when the glass became caked with dirt and blood after an explosion. I’ve also arrived in theater on short TDYs and been loaned a rifle that ONLY had iron sights (other times, been handed a 416 with all the bells and whistles). That’s not “hypothetical.” There is no downside to BUIS. That said, I don’t have BUIS on all my rifles, for many of the various, sound reasons already mentioned. “BUIS are irrelevant” is not a sound reason. |
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Posted: 4/26/2021 2:51:25 PM EDT
[#15]
All my stuff is Day/Night (NODs) so I have (full power) Viz/IR LASER, Offset Solar RDS' and various Optics, on everything. I have no irons due to no place to put them, primarily. I don't feel under equipped, but it's Big Boy Rules - do what your rank can handle.
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Posted: 4/26/2021 3:05:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Used to have BUIS. No longer feel that theyre needed. But I do believe in having backups.
So currently, my "BUIS" is just a an Aimpont T2 on a Scalarworks mount, pre-zeroed for my rifle, and thrown into my pack. If my primary goes down, ive got a second optic that can take it's place in a matter of 15 seconds. The reasoning is: -A free float handgaurd can be knocked hard enough to ruin a BUIS zero, even under regular use. Sure some hadgaurds are more sturdy than others, but no matter how strong they are, they will lose zero WAY before a T2 on the upper will. -Secondly, its some weight and bulk I can take off my arms and put on my pack instead, and less snag points. Yeah its a very minor benefit, BUIS arent very big. But it's still a benefit to me. I get a streamlined profile, and my flashlight gets to go right where I want it. 12oclock! -Lastly, my T2 is the BUIS for multiple guns. So instead of having 3 sets of Magpul Pro sights and placing them on each rifle only to collect dust, my backup red dot serves backup duty to all of my carbines. The zero is similar between the rifles, after recording the zero, all I need to do is adjust it a couple clicks and it's ready to go on whichever rifle I want. If i'm in a hurry, the poi is still well within minute of man no matter which rifle it's on, and I can adjust the knobs when I get time. I think the whole "oh no! My optic went down! I have 5 seconds to switch to my buis or else i'll get shot!" Scenario doesnt really exist. When my military buddies tell me about when they had to use their BUIS, it's usually more in the ballpark of "Yeah my dot stopped working in the middle of the fight, so I hunkered down behind a rock and took it off. Switched to the Irons and got it fixed later". But that's just what works for me. Saved my bacon during a few multi-day competitions, and used it once during a camping trip. Worked out well for me! |
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Posted: 4/26/2021 5:32:42 PM EDT
[#17]
On anything to be used for HD, I would encourage the use of BUIS - especially if you're stuck with a "cheap" red dot for now. A high quality red dot sight like the MRO, Aimpoint, or similar would diminish the need for BUIS, but I still like the option. My Aimpoint H1 has backup iron sights in case my primary optic fails for any reason. I like standard cowitness on my rifles that have flip up sights, but prefer a lower 1/3 cowitness with fixed irons like the Daniel Defense. It may take some swapping & horse trading to find what works best for you. Hopefully the responses here give you enough info to make an informed decision.
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Posted: 4/26/2021 7:11:33 PM EDT
[#18]
Depends. For a gun with a primary optic only, I run backups (most are A2 FSB and flip up rear, but have a few CCH as well).
The two builds in working on with be the modern, long FF tube style. I'm planning on Vortex razor 1-6x primary and an T/H 1/2 backup on an offset mount. Modern red dots are so reliable, I have faith that they'll be ready to go when I need them. The odds of 2 quality optics failing simultaneously is so low as to not be worth worrying about, to me. |
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Posted: 4/26/2021 9:24:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I HAVE deployed in the last ten years, and yes, I had BUIS. I have used BUIS in combat, twice, because the optic failed (EoTech), and when the glass became caked with dirt and blood after an explosion. I’ve also arrived in theater on short TDYs and been loaned a rifle that ONLY had iron sights (other times, been handed a 416 with all the bells and whistles). That’s not “hypothetical.” There is no downside to BUIS. That said, I don’t have BUIS on all my rifles, for many of the various, sound reasons already mentioned. “BUIS are irrelevant” is not a sound reason. This. There's no downside to having them, so why not? There are also applications that make them unnecessary. You could go with a prismatic red dot. The reticle is etched in the glass, so it doesn't matter if the electronics fail. That said, I have a prismatic with BUIS. Not for backup, just for the old feel of using A2 sights for distance. |
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Posted: 4/26/2021 10:37:14 PM EDT
[#20]
On a good day, you can pick up a pair of MBUS of eBay for $30-$50. They weigh very little and can get the job done if your primary goes down for whatever reason.
What could be the cost of not having them? |
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Posted: 4/27/2021 9:12:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Always have BUIS.
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Posted: 4/28/2021 2:22:50 AM EDT
[#22]
Fixed irons and a 1/3d co-witness red dot is my jam. Minimum of fixed front and folding rear for all my ARs.
For where I live, that is all I need. If a dot fails, while having at least a fixed front, it acts as a large ghost ring till a folding rear can be deployed. But fixed and 1/3d you just slightly adjust your cheek weld. All my firearms are tools. With tools I prefer redundancy. That's why I have multiple 18mm and 10mm sockets  . In my rifles I have multiple sighting systems. One goes down, the other is there.It sucks loosing your dot while at the range. Especially if the rifle is unique in your collection and you have to grab a completely different gun. It will suck more if it goes down in a defense scenario. |
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Posted: 4/28/2021 2:25:27 AM EDT
[#23]
Why not have back ups?
That said, optic failures are incredibly rare. Even a lot of Chinese optics these days will hold up better than the person shooting it will. But why not be ready for it in case you’re one of the few? |
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Posted: 4/28/2021 5:37:05 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Buis are irrelevant. Sure people can come up with hypothetical situations in which the arm chair operator is going to take a round to the scope and then fling it off to deploy the buis or something absurd, but that's all make believe. If it makes you feel cozy then sure, knock yourself out. For anyone who has actually deployed in the last ten years, no one uses buis. So I was once serving a high risk felony warrant with 3 other detectives, got near the address, and after 12 years my optic illumination knob on my Meopta LPVO just crapped, out on the spot. I used my Larue SPR mount to remove the scope and deployed iron sights, just as we exited the vehicle. If I had no BUIS, I would have been using my pistol as the Meopta reticle was not really usable without the illumination. Scope had to be replaced. Switched to Aimpoint. Never NEEDED my BUIS since, but they sure were nice to have that one time. MBUS are only 2.5oz and $75. Why not get a set if the irons allow it to still fulfill its role. I don't put BUIS on long range guns because it can not still fulfill its role with irons. |
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Posted: 4/28/2021 9:51:22 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Buis are irrelevant. Sure people can come up with hypothetical situations in which the arm chair operator is going to take a round to the scope and then fling it off to deploy the buis or something absurd, but that's all make believe. If it makes you feel cozy then sure, knock yourself out. For anyone who has actually deployed in the last ten years, no one uses buis. Two people in this very thread just proved that you're wrong. Two people that were in harms way. One of whom deployed, the other in law enforcement who's constant operating environment still counts as a "deployment." Their experiences proved that things can happen at the worst moments and least expected. Pretty much tosses your inflated opinions on this subject out the door. |
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Posted: 4/28/2021 10:19:25 AM EDT
[#26]
I spent some money on some Troy BUIS.
Problem is I can't see them. |
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Posted: 4/28/2021 10:40:17 AM EDT
[#27]
I'll bet that in a decade or two, if possession of ARs haven't been banned outright, you'll be hard pressed to find any equipped with a set of BUIS.
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Posted: 4/28/2021 1:10:22 PM EDT
[#28]
I have BUIS on my rifle. I have them zeroed and will likely never use them again as my primary optic on it is a ACOG. That said... I am of the belief that it is better to have them and not need them than need them and not have them.
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Posted: 4/28/2021 1:55:35 PM EDT
[#29]
I don't consider a rifle complete without BUIS.
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Posted: 4/28/2021 2:12:58 PM EDT
[#30]
Aimpoint or Eotech as the primary get a set of BUIS because batteries\electronics. Most of my prism etched or LPVOs get an offset RDS. Or nothing if ACOG.
Anything I'm using with a battery needs a backup that doesn't. |
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Posted: 4/28/2021 2:18:47 PM EDT
[#31]
I add BUIS on most, unless it's a hunting/target gun.
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Posted: 4/28/2021 2:48:21 PM EDT
[#32]
JMHO, but I don't believe a rifle/carbine/sbr/pistol is complete without some type of iron sights.
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Posted: 4/28/2021 2:50:14 PM EDT
[#33]
I use Prisms or LPVOs, so I avoid BUIS. Only rifle that has them is my Dissipator built off a 604 upper and has an FSB, but that still has an optic on top with a Brownells Retro 4x.
I have difficulties with irons too. The only modification that has worked with me was the Blitzkrieg Chevron front sight post in green. |
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Posted: 4/28/2021 2:54:03 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For your purposes I’d put a higher quality optic on it and forget the irons. This |
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Posted: 4/28/2021 3:01:51 PM EDT
[#35]
Curious (cuz I just don't know) - has anyone torture tested various BUIS Aaron Cowan drop style, to see how they hold up/zero? We know RMR's and Holosuns (ACRO?) can take the beating (offset mount could come into play - stouter the better).
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Posted: 4/28/2021 3:06:11 PM EDT
[#36]
I have a carbine with irons and no easy way for a scope.
My other AR has a scope and no irons. Flip-up or otherwise. |
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Posted: 4/28/2021 3:27:00 PM EDT
[#37]
Dots and LPVO's get them.
Higher magnified guns do not. I would be more apt to throw a rds on a high magnified gun over a set of back up irons. My 2 cents. Bev 
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Posted: 4/28/2021 3:42:50 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Curious (cuz I just don't know) - has anyone torture tested various BUIS Aaron Cowan drop style, to see how they hold up/zero? We know RMR's and Holosuns (ACRO?) can take the beating (offset mount could come into play - stouter the better). I forgot who did it, but there was a test a while back where they tortured 3 different BUIS: Magpul MBUS (polymer), Troy battlesights, and I think YHM was the third. The MBUS performed the best. The Troy and THM both had issues, but I can't recall exactly what they were. They beat the absolute fuck out of all of them in the test, though. So I wouldn't hold it against Troy or YHM. I'd still feel comfortable with Troy BUIS. I personally use Magpul MBUS Pro BUIS. I like that they they're steel, and they flip up and down without a physical locking mechanism which I appreciate. |
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Posted: 4/29/2021 4:31:58 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I forgot who did it, but there was a test a while back where they tortured 3 different BUIS: Magpul MBUS (polymer), Troy battlesights, and I think YHM was the third. The MBUS performed the best. The Troy and THM both had issues, but I can't recall exactly what they were. They beat the absolute fuck out of all of them in the test, though. So I wouldn't hold it against Troy or YHM. I'd still feel comfortable with Troy BUIS. I personally use Magpul MBUS Pro BUIS. I like that they they're steel, and they flip up and down without a physical locking mechanism which I appreciate. Thank you. Polymer Magpuls huh? I'd have thought the opposite - but it just goes to show that a lot of "message board lore" is bass ackwards 
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Posted: 4/29/2021 4:51:11 AM EDT
[#40]
I’ve never understood the controversy of putting back ups on any gun you’d be using for defensive purposes....
They are cheap and light (Magpul polymer) Personally I prefer steel using either Troy or Magpul pro for the last 20+ years (Arms before that) I use QD mounts (LaRue) on most guns and occasionally pull the optics off to knock rust on my iron sight skills off. If you prefer a fixed mount then go with 45 degree offset sights or red dot. Range toys or hunting guns are the flexible part of this rule for me but generally add irons My agency (large city) requires a yearly qualification with BOTH red dot and Co-witnessed irons with dot turned off. |
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Posted: 4/29/2021 8:07:28 AM EDT
[#41]
Just doesn't look right without them.
But I don't really need them on my varmint gun |
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Posted: 4/29/2021 9:23:40 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve never understood the controversy of putting back ups on any gun you’d be using for defensive purposes.... They are cheap and light (Magpul polymer) Personally I prefer steel using either Troy or Magpul pro for the last 20+ years (Arms before that) I use QD mounts (LaRue) on most guns and occasionally pull the optics off to knock rust on my iron sight skills off. If you prefer a fixed mount then go with 45 degree offset sights or red dot. Range toys or hunting guns are the flexible part of this rule for me but generally add irons My agency (large city) requires a yearly qualification with BOTH red dot and Co-witnessed irons with dot turned off. I agree on the backup part - these days though, at least for me, Rail Offset or Scope Tube (45 Degree or Top Mounted) RDS are better. No deploying/removing, so instant/faster (although fixed BUIS is the same - but annoying in the optic FOV, to me) and first focal plane beats all others. No one will say RMRs can't take abuse, and if you want enclosed, the HS 509T has been beaten on too. No room on a 9" Rail with a LASER and Pressure Pad, and Night Vision height mounts generally obstruct BUIS, unless you want to spend big bucks on Unity (built in) or limit yourself to a LASER that accepts a LEAF (still need to figure out a rear), etc... Backup? Yes...Type of backup - let the debate continue 
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Posted: 4/29/2021 11:19:22 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I forgot who did it, but there was a test a while back where they tortured 3 different BUIS: Magpul MBUS (polymer), Troy battlesights, and I think YHM was the third. The MBUS performed the best. The Troy and THM both had issues, but I can't recall exactly what they were. They beat the absolute fuck out of all of them in the test, though. So I wouldn't hold it against Troy or YHM. I'd still feel comfortable with Troy BUIS. I personally use Magpul MBUS Pro BUIS. I like that they they're steel, and they flip up and down without a physical locking mechanism which I appreciate. It's partly because the Magpuls fold when hit and don't lock |
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Posted: 4/29/2021 11:25:53 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's partly because the Magpuls fold when hit and don't lock I figured that to be somewhat the case as well. That's why I like the MBUS Pros. They're all steel, but they'll fold down themselves without resistance depending on where the impact would occur. |
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Posted: 4/30/2021 1:09:36 AM EDT
[#45]
BUIS are not mandatory for recreational shooting, but I think they're worth having. When we go shooting up north, having a red dot go down could ruin the whole day because we're miles from civilization.
For a SHTF gun, I consider BUIS absolutely mandatory. |
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Posted: 4/30/2021 10:16:19 AM EDT
[#46]
HD/SHTF yes, range toy no.
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Posted: 4/30/2021 10:25:42 AM EDT
[#47]
I run Troy BUIS on every AR I own. All my optics ride in Larue quick release mounts.
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Posted: 4/30/2021 11:10:31 AM EDT
[#48]
When I went to a rifle instructor course I was told, we'll only shoot in bad weather if there is bad weather. I had a rifle with a fixed front sight, a folding rear sight, and an Aimpoint RDS. It was dark and the Aimpoint was better in the dark then the sights. Then it started raining. It was raining sideways. My Aimpoint lens got so wet I could not see through it. The Aimpoint was in a QD mount. I took it off and went to my sights. I was able to shoot fine. Other students not so much.
On two of my work guns I have fixed sights behind an RDS. I don't have to fumble with them or try to get them up when I need them. The sight picture can be a little busy that way, but with practice its fine. This is all personal preference and there is no right answer. I just prefer having them because experience taught me that they are good to have. |
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Posted: 4/30/2021 7:26:39 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks all for the input. I think I'm going to have to bump the MRO up the priority list. I just remembered this sight has an auto-shut-off, so I cannot leave it on while it's in the safe. The MRO I want to upgrade to has a 5-year claimed battery life, and does not have the auto-shut-off. I considered the MRO for my HD rifle until this. Just about the worst in a comparison test of commonly used red dots. Unless its been fixed, might want to rethink the choice unless you are happy with over 13 MOA parallax error. FWIW, the Vortex Razor mini reflex was worse!  And, yes, irons or folding backups on HD use. Even duty grade electronics can fail. Doesn't matter if the chance is only 1 percent. Someone is that 1 percent. I don't want it to be me. Go Magpul MBUS, MBUS Pro, or KAC Micro. They all deflect if struck, preventing or greatly reducing impact damage. |
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Posted: 4/30/2021 7:51:37 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I forgot who did it, but there was a test a while back where they tortured 3 different BUIS: Magpul MBUS (polymer), Troy battlesights, and I think YHM was the third. The MBUS performed the best. The Troy and THM both had issues, but I can't recall exactly what they were. They beat the absolute fuck out of all of them in the test, though. So I wouldn't hold it against Troy or YHM. I'd still feel comfortable with Troy BUIS. I personally use Magpul MBUS Pro BUIS. I like that they they're steel, and they flip up and down without a physical locking mechanism which I appreciate. Here you go. Only the Magpul MBUS held zero. It was only a single three foot fall sight down on a concrete floor. The other two, Troy (Spikes logo) and Diamondhead, were the rigid lock upright style and each had a major POI shift. Afterward, the guy used the Magpul equipped rifle like a maul swinging it overhead and repeatedly striking it. Only 1 MOA shift. This was published in Kit Up.  |
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