User Panel
[#2]
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[#3]
Was at the range yeasterday using bcm elw bfh 14.5" middy with 62 grain fmj with a 1-6 pa scope and was getting 1.5 to 2 " 5 round groups at 100 yards , havnt had a chance to run any heavier or lighter bullets yet
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[#4]
A friend of mine brought me a 16” ELW upper two summers ago saying it shot like shit. I thought he couldn’t shoot, but I mounted a 4-16X Nightforce and went to the range.
It shot like shit. Really bad. Something like 7-8MOA with 193 and 855, 4MOA with MK262, but for grins I loaded a mag with 55gr Sierra BlitzKings and shot two ten round 1MOA groups. Barrel was a certifiable piece of shit but did shoot one obscure load very well. I documented everything and posted it on M4C to watch the shitshow. |
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[#5]
Quoted:
A friend of mine brought me a 16” ELW upper two summers ago saying it shot like shit. I thought he couldn’t shoot, but I mounted a 4-16X Nightforce and went to the range. It shot like shit. Really bad. Something like 7-8MOA with 193 and 855, 4MOA with MK262, but for grins I loaded a mag with 55gr Sierra BlitzKings and shot two ten round 1MOA groups. Barrel was a certifiable piece of shit but did shoot one obscure load very well. I documented everything and posted it on M4C to watch the shitshow. View Quote |
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[#6]
Quoted:
A friend of mine brought me a 16” ELW upper two summers ago saying it shot like shit. I thought he couldn’t shoot, but I mounted a 4-16X Nightforce and went to the range. It shot like shit. Really bad. Something like 7-8MOA with 193 and 855, 4MOA with MK262, but for grins I loaded a mag with 55gr Sierra BlitzKings and shot two ten round 1MOA groups. Barrel was a certifiable piece of shit but did shoot one obscure load very well. I documented everything and posted it on M4C to watch the shitshow. View Quote |
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[#7]
Quoted: I bet TOS had a veritable meltdown. They will hit DU levels of weird to defend BCM there. Not that BCM isn’t good, they just have hiccups like every other manufacturer. View Quote Yeah I definitely don’t intend to rag on BCM; I love a lot of their stuff. The KMR and now MCMR fit my support hand like a glove and just feels “right.” This barrel is just picky so far. All in all I would rather it shoot heavier defensive loads really well and M193 like shit than have it be a 3.5 MOA all around shooter. |
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[#8]
Attached File
Not saying this is great or anything but this is through a 14.5 mid non BFH with IMI 193 at 25y and a red dot prone off a backpack. Looks to be 2.5-4 MOA. That sucks yours isnt shooting well. |
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[#9]
You really shouldn't be testing accuracy with XM193 and an Aimpoint T2. It's a 2 MOA unmagnified optic and 3-4 MOA ammo, of course the barrel isn't shooting bugholes. Let me guess, a mil-spec trigger too?
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[#10]
Quoted:
You really shouldn't be testing accuracy with XM193 and an Aimpoint T2. It's a 2 MOA unmagnified optic and 3-4 MOA ammo, of course the barrel isn't shooting bugholes. Let me guess, a mil-spec trigger too? View Quote |
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[#11]
Quoted:
You really shouldn't be testing accuracy with XM193 and an Aimpoint T2. It's a 2 MOA unmagnified optic and 3-4 MOA ammo, of course the barrel isn't shooting bugholes. Let me guess, a mil-spec trigger too? View Quote |
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[#12]
These groups pretty much mirror my experience with with BCM barrels. I have had one that was a 6moa barrel with surplus ammo. I think 2-4moa is pretty much more the norm though for their CL barrels
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[#13]
I had the same issue. I thought I couldn’t shoot, but it liked 69 gr hpbt. 55gr wolf gold was all over the place.
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[#14]
Quoted:
These groups pretty much mirror my experience with with BCM barrels. I have had one that was a 6moa barrel with surplus ammo. I think 2-4moa is pretty much more the norm though for their CL barrels View Quote |
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[#15]
Quoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/425939/20171216_130456-629416.JPG Not saying this is great or anything but this is through a 14.5 mid non BFH with IMI 193 at 25y and a red dot prone off a backpack. Looks to be 2.5-4 MOA. That sucks yours isnt shooting well. View Quote |
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[#16]
Good group w 75gr...do you mind sharing your load data? Thx.
JP |
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[#17]
Quoted:
Good group w 75gr...do you mind sharing your load data? Thx. JP View Quote I am not a reloader. It is a speer 75 gr gold dot: Available here It has grouped well in every rifle I have shot it through. ETA you can definitely tell the .223 difference; this load has a very smooth recoil impulse. |
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[#18]
Interesting the BCM barrel shoots XM193 ( we all know that it is match ammo , Lol ) so poorly... how many rounds down the barrel ?
And what specific XM193 ?... same lot # ? ... just curious. Maybe try some of the AE223 version... barrel harmonics and what.. And , IMHO, I would try various other "M193" ammos... I have had outstanding precision with MEN 56gr FMJ ( considering the cost and M193 aspect ), also I suggest some GECO .223 and 5.56 55gr FMJ, and PMC XTAC 55gr FMJ. I also suggest some Hornady American Gunner 55gr HP, and some Hornady 75gr Steel Match/ Training. Your experience, would put me into ... " I will find cheap ammo this thing will shoot mode " Lol And just to take your firing stance out of the equation ( no offense, more of a variable removal thing ) try shooting off the bench, on stable bags... do you have a scope you could put on ? ( See.. I am already searching for a way to use cheap precise ammo ) |
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[#19]
Quoted:
Interesting the BCM barrel shoots XM193 ( we all know that it is match ammo , Lol ) so poorly... how many rounds down the barrel ? And what specific XM193 ?... same lot # ? ... just curious. Maybe try some of the AE223 version... barrel harmonics and what.. And , IMHO, I would try various other "M193" ammos... I have had outstanding precision with MEN 56gr FMJ ( considering the cost and M193 aspect ), also I suggest some GECO .223 and 5.56 55gr FMJ, and PMC XTAC 55gr FMJ. I also suggest some Hornady American Gunner 55gr HP, and some Hornady 75gr Steel Match/ Training. Your experience, would put me into ... " I will find cheap ammo this thing will shoot mode " Lol And just to take your firing stance out of the equation ( no offense, more of a variable removal thing ) try shooting off the bench, on stable bags... do you have a scope you could put on ? ( See.. I am already searching for a way to use cheap precise ammo ) View Quote I reject the notion that adequately tight groups cannot be made without magnified optics. At two separate carbine courses (not the CSAT course) I won awards for best 100 yard group. I used aimpoint PROs in both classes. In one class it was all aimpoints but in the other there were a couple 4 power ACOGS and even a random sig red dot. With a well contrasted target and holding a very consistent POA you can be very tight with a red dot if you aren’t hampered by poor eyesight or bad institutional red dot myths/techniques. I agree that testing other M193 variants, lot numbers and clones would be instructive. This is a defensive carbine and I shoot and zero it as such. I am not going to strive for a supported bench zero when I don’t shoot from the bench, ever. Mag supported prone, high prone, kneeling, standing, barricades only. So I zero mag supported. ETA: about 400 rounds through this relatively fresh barrel thus far. |
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[#20]
Quoted: Same lot number as previously stated. It is AE M193. As previously stated in another reply this was not an accuracy test, this was field shooting. However, a magnified optic will not magically shrink a 7 MOA group to 2-3 MOA. I shoot red dots and LPVs (elcan and nightforce previously now a vortex razor) a lot and it’s just not happening unless you believe this rifle will print 3/4 MOA with the Speer gold dots. I doubt it. I absolutely believe it would shrink a little but not enough to change these results in an appreciable way. Those fliers were not of my making. I reject the notion that adequately tight groups cannot be made without magnified optics. At two separate carbine courses (not the CSAT course) I won awards for best 100 yard group. I used aimpoint PROs in both classes. In one class it was all aimpoints but in the other there were a couple 4 power ACOGS and even a random sig red dot. With a well contrasted target and holding a very consistent POA you can be very tight with a red dot if you aren’t hampered by poor eyesight or bad institutional red dot myths/techniques. I agree that testing other M193 variants, lot numbers and clones would be instructive. This is a defensive carbine and I shoot and zero it as such. I am not going to strive for a supported bench zero when I don’t shoot from the bench, ever. Mag supported prone, high prone, kneeling, standing, barricades only. So I zero mag supported. ETA: about 400 rounds through this relatively fresh barrel thus far. View Quote I fully agree with your training and application procedures .... as in, do what you want and desire to train for. I am the same way... dependent on the firearm I am using at the range. I do still wonder if the barrel would shoot other 55gr ish FMJ ammo better. I will watch for any further developments , since I am very curious. |
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[#21]
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[#22]
Quoted: I agree about a scope will not magically tighten groups... I was suggesting a benched accuracy testing to set a precision potential base line.... if XM193 is going to shoot 2-3MOA off the bench, and scoped from your barrel... then IMHO your current results, might not be to terribly out of line. I fully agree with your training and application procedures .... as in, do what you want and desire to train for. I am the same way... dependent on the firearm I am using at the range. I do still wonder if the barrel would shoot other 55gr ish FMJ ammo better. I will watch for any further developments , since I am very curious. View Quote |
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[#23]
Quoted:
I've got a 14.5" bfh ELW BCM upper that i want to build in to a recce of sorts. In the meantime I just zeroed a holosun red dot on it. Once I verified zero i threw the suppressor on and some CBC made mk262 clone and this is the first 3 rounds verifying POI shift at 50yds http://i.imgur.com/ktpqBTh.jpg View Quote |
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[#25]
Xm193 is the most common 5.56 around and its the cheapest quality brass. If I had a rifle barrel that shot any worse than 3moa, I'd dump it for something else, BCM or not. My spikes optimum profile chf barrel shoots federal xm193 at 1.5-2moa. If you can afford to shoot and train with 262 then more power to ya.
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[#26]
Quoted:
You really shouldn't be testing accuracy with XM193 and an Aimpoint T2. It's a 2 MOA unmagnified optic and 3-4 MOA ammo, of course the barrel isn't shooting bugholes. Let me guess, a mil-spec trigger too? View Quote |
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[#27]
Quoted:
Xm193 is the most common 5.56 around and its the cheapest quality brass. If I had a rifle barrel that shot any worse than 3moa, I'd dump it for something else, BCM or not. My spikes optimum profile chf barrel shoots federal xm193 at 1.5-2moa. If you can afford to shoot and train with 262 then more power to ya. View Quote https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/16-511804/? |
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[#28]
I thought I was doing good with my BCM shooting 3-4 moa today. Front rested, iron sights, 100 yards, Winchester 55gr 5.56 from walmart.
Mine is a 16in LW FSB non CHF. All my guns shoot .223 better than 5.56 |
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[#30]
as an update to this i got a vortex razor 1-6 on my ELW and just went out to zero it quickly so i knew i could count on it.
Had mixed performance with 62gr green tip, 60gr and 75gr hornady tap, and ultimately finished my zero with CBC mk262. Fired a 5 round group at 100yds and thought i had pulled off a sub moa group. Got up to take my targets down and found that only two impacted the 3" sticker. Essentially a 3moa group. Guess I'll have to go back and try again |
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[#31]
I have a M&P sport 2 and a BCM LW upper with a KMR-A, both are setup almost exactly the same and the sport 2 is most certainly more accurate. I have owned a bunch of BCM uppers and I have never been wowed by the accuracy, but they have always ran very well. Admittedly I have never scoped any of them but my sport 2 groups are consistently half the size of the BCM's groups. I should also mention the BCM rifle has a SSA trigger and the sport 2 has a mil-spec trigger...
This is with wolf gold, I have never tried any really good stuff before. I used to think I needed 1:7 because of all those heavy bullets I would shoot... |
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[#32]
I’ve been relatively happy about the accuracy form my elw. What do you guys think about using bhf elw for use with the dead air Sandman S. I’m concerned that the barrel is too thin and will heat up too quickly. I would have to cut off the current muzzle device and put the Sandman flash hider on it.
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[#33]
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[#35]
Quoted:
16" BCM pencil middy, aimpoint H2, SSA-E, XM193, off the bench @ 50yds https://i.imgur.com/v3fz9GZ.jpg View Quote |
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[#36]
Quoted:
Try wolf gold? Or steel case? Maybe same results but cheaper View Quote Also no steel cased as I do not want to shoot bimetal jacketed rounds. |
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[#37]
Quoted: Negative. Geissele. Further, I am quite capable of shooting tight groups with an aimpoint. It may tighten up a tiny bit if I throw one of my magnified optics on it but it will not magically turn M193 from 7 MOA to 2 MOA through this barrel. View Quote |
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[#38]
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[#39]
I seem to remember reading that CHF barrels do better once they "burnish in" a bit. Most of my barrels are CHF and do settle into consistency after about 300 rounds. Just one dudes observations.
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[#40]
I am a BCM fanboy, but I will never buy and ELW profile. There seems to be a continuous theme of accuracy issues with these barrels, when cold, and they are only going to get worse as the barrel heats up.
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[#41]
Maybe shorten the barrel to a pistol or SBR as shorter barrels are stiffer and move less. The LW profile would make it a very light and handy gun.
I love BCM and have a 12.5 standard and a 16 LW. With M193, Wold Gold and M855 i get about 3-4 MOA. It is good enough for me though. I understand others wanting accuracy. |
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[#42]
Quoted:
I am a BCM fanboy, but I will never buy and ELW profile. There seems to be a continuous theme of accuracy issues with these barrels, when cold, and they are only going to get worse as the barrel heats up. View Quote |
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[#43]
I have a BFH 11.5” that really doesnt like 55 grain ammo. Shoots 62 grain and heavier really accurately though. Had a 16” BCM lightweight that shot 55 grain fine.
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