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Posted: 2/7/2021 6:50:39 PM EDT
[#1]
If they were necessary, military M16 and M4 rifles would have them. But it's not, so they don't.
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Posted: 2/7/2021 6:51:50 PM EDT
[#2]
Only necessary with certain aftermarket triggers that state they are a requirement.
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Posted: 2/7/2021 7:02:14 PM EDT
[#3]
10s of thousands of rounds here and no special parts.
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Posted: 2/7/2021 7:09:39 PM EDT
[#4]
1st and 2nd posts nailed it.
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Posted: 2/7/2021 7:20:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Like the title says how important are "Anti-Walk Pins" in a AR? I got a factory standard Colt AR15A4 that has regular pins with no issues that I have seen in the 1000 or so rounds I have managed to put through it since I bought it and I'm about to start going down the path of building up my first ground up AR and want to try and get the most useful parts the first time rather than go back and add them later. I usually deal with WWI bolt actions so I apologize if this seems a bit noobish. Not needed! |
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Posted: 2/7/2021 7:24:51 PM EDT
[#6]
I would use them on the box type drop in triggers like timney, cmc and those type. Never needed antiwalk pins with geissele or the larue mbt triggers.
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Posted: 2/7/2021 7:40:58 PM EDT
[#7]
There are piles of American troop bodies littering battlefields from Vietnam to Afghanistan - all of them have an AR trigger pin lying on the ground alongside them.
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Posted: 2/7/2021 7:46:52 PM EDT
[#8]
Not needed. But nothing wrong with them.
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Posted: 2/7/2021 7:48:20 PM EDT
[#9]
Recommended for direct blowback AR9s.
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Posted: 2/7/2021 8:08:01 PM EDT
[#10]
There all but what 25 bucks?
Cheap insurance if you ask me |
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Posted: 2/7/2021 8:10:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There all but what 25 bucks? Cheap insurance if you ask me They are unnecessary and can actually create reliability issues. |
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Posted: 2/7/2021 8:11:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There all but what 25 bucks? Cheap insurance if you ask me If your FCG is properly installed, insurance against nothing. |
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Posted: 2/7/2021 8:11:43 PM EDT
[#13]
Like others, I've never needed them.
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Posted: 2/7/2021 8:11:53 PM EDT
[#14]
I had some KNS pins back when because I have to mess with stuff....got rid of them and none since....
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Posted: 2/7/2021 9:43:23 PM EDT
[#15]
Do you have a clapped out m16 lower that seen millions of rounds or a cartridge trigger?
For cartridge triggers I have heard they help because there is next to nothing to help hold the pins in the lower. |
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Posted: 2/7/2021 9:54:55 PM EDT
[#16]
I have a sbr lower with egged out pin holes and a 9mm setup that I use them on.
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Posted: 2/7/2021 10:00:34 PM EDT
[#17]
Not needed if you install the parts correctly.
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Posted: 2/7/2021 10:30:36 PM EDT
[#18]
Registered M16 receiver or something rare I want to shoot? I'd buy 2. I can always reverse the modification and I'd hate to lose tens of thousands of dollars on a less than $50 kit.
For the most part, no matter how many rounds you shoot, AR's are not shitting their pins out because of how the factory springs retain them. Are they sloppy over time with round counts most of us can't afford and messing up trigger pull? Big maybe. Do they make sense on drop in triggers? Another big maybe. Especially if they can't mechanically retain the pins correctly. They're not a huge expense so if you want your AR to live forever, why not? On SP1's, M16's, or other auto conversions why not just throw them on for insurance? |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 7:49:14 PM EDT
[#19]
they are kind of reversible. I put some on my Noveski with a Geissele trigger in it. I decided to put the Geissele pins back in. Well when i took the bars off they had left a impression in the anodizing so i put them back on. they are not needed though.
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Posted: 2/9/2021 12:38:39 AM EDT
[#20]
Three instances where I would consider using them.
-Cartridge aftermarket triggers. -6061 billet lowers. Softer aluminum than 7075. Probably not needed, but cheap insurance -80% lowers. Drilled holes, no anodizing. Probably not needed, but cheap insurance |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 7:59:37 PM EDT
[#21]
For function, they aren't. If you want to look cool with kids on the interwebz, they are 100% required.
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Posted: 2/10/2021 8:02:26 PM EDT
[#22]
The only triggers that need them will either come with them or something similar.... I have a drop in CMC and it came with Chicago screws that serve the same purpose
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Posted: 2/17/2021 10:33:02 AM EDT
[#23]
The only time I feel they are truly needed is in a 9mm or using a Poly lower. I built a poly lower for a guy about 10 years ago. After a 100 rds or so the poly began to slam fire and would empty the magazine. Trigger pin holes had become egged shaped....A set of KNS anti walk brought them back into spec and saved the lower.
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Posted: 2/17/2021 10:59:16 AM EDT
[#24]
I want my expensive Anderson lowers to be in tip-top condition when I bequeath them to my son thirty years from now.
Those lowers were $38 a piece! The $35 I invested for each pair of KNS pins was simply sound decision making. |
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Posted: 2/21/2021 12:15:26 AM EDT
[#25]
Never needed a set of them except when I installed a CMC trigger in a large pin Colt
CMC includes them with the box style trigger and they perform as designed without issue |
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Posted: 2/21/2021 12:43:19 AM EDT
[#26]
I got a New Frontier complete lower and needed the anti walk pins to keep them from coming out during cycling. When I contacted them about it they recommended them. I've never needed to use the anti walk pins on anything else.
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Posted: 3/4/2021 4:36:24 AM EDT
[#27]
In 17 years in the army using a few lowers that were completely beat to crap, I’ve had or seen/heard of exactly zero pins walk-in a milspec rifle (or a personal civilian rifle that used military sized pins)
The pins are held in place internally with the trigger springs (which is why there are notches carved into each pin). Anti-walk pins are a solution looking for a problem, and are a great investment if you want to impress people on IG. |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 6:51:44 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: -80% lowers. Drilled holes, no anodizing. Probably not needed, but cheap insurance |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 7:00:19 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Three instances where I would consider using them. -Cartridge aftermarket triggers. -6061 billet lowers. Softer aluminum than 7075. Probably not needed, but cheap insurance -80% lowers. Drilled holes, no anodizing. Probably not needed, but cheap insurance Good points, have 2/3 in one lower. |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 2:49:26 PM EDT
[#30]
Iirc they were made for m16 lowers that were hot garbage and kept losing pins.
If you have a good lower I don't see the need and even then if the trigger company says to use them then use them. G$ says no dice but cassette triggers for the most part yes. |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 2:52:38 PM EDT
[#31]
I have one crappy lower that I had to install them in because it was constantly walking out the trigger pin. POS BCI shit lower.
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Posted: 3/5/2021 12:04:10 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If they were necessary, military M16 and M4 rifles would have them. But it's not, so they don't. Could you do me a solid and tell me exactly the oldest and youngest m16 lower still in use by the military? Even their clapped out ones get turned to door stops and they seem to get new ones every year. |
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Posted: 3/8/2021 11:27:31 PM EDT
[#33]
If all lowers and trigger components were quality and Milspec, Anti-Walk pins would not exist lol
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Posted: 3/9/2021 3:00:19 AM EDT
[#34]
I wont use them, but then again, I dont use contained firing control groups held in metal housings.
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Posted: 3/9/2021 9:37:45 AM EDT
[#35]
I did see a pin starting to walk out. Years ago. Not my rifle. I do remember helping get it "fixed" but don't remember exactly what I found. Far as I know that rifle hasn't had an issue since.
I do have some rifles/carbines with those locking pins, because they have aftermarket trigger assemblies in them and the pins are needed. |
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Posted: 3/9/2021 10:11:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If they were necessary, military M16 and M4 rifles would have them. But it's not, so they don't. That's totally faulty logic. Current military standard for a acceptable barrel is 5inch group at 100yds. If I purchased a AR and got that I would be sending that back. Military only took 20 years from M16A1 to add a brass deflector with the A2 so lefties don't have to eat brass. It also took 12 years (1994 to 2006) to figure out, the M4 needed a H2 not H buffer to run at optimum. Military standard still phosphate coatings on numerous parts (1965 tech there) as opposed better treatments like DLC, melonite others I could go on.. Does this apply to anti-walk pins? Perhaps not but..... The military is by no means a good standard to measure things buy. |
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Posted: 3/10/2021 5:03:23 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If they were necessary, military M16 and M4 rifles would have them. But it's not, so they don't. mod's are mostly not necessary. JPE anti-walk pins are great. I usually red loctite one screw and blue the other. |
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Posted: 3/22/2021 11:10:24 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's totally faulty logic. Current military standard for a acceptable barrel is 5inch group at 100yds. If I purchased a AR and got that I would be sending that back. Military only took 20 years from M16A1 to add a brass deflector with the A2 so lefties don't have to eat brass. It also took 12 years (1994 to 2006) to figure out, the M4 needed a H2 not H buffer to run at optimum. Military standard still phosphate coatings on numerous parts (1965 tech there) as opposed better treatments like DLC, melonite others I could go on.. Does this apply to anti-walk pins? Perhaps not but..... The military is by no means a good standard to measure things buy. Flawed logic, too. Two fallacies do not make truth. Good "mil spec" trigger pins do not degrade accuracy and have nothing to do with "5 inch groups at 100 yards." I have a Lilja match barreled precision build with a Geissele SSA-E trigger group that is sub 1/2 MOA capable with hand-loaded match component ammo. The Geissele trigger and hammer pins are hardened and perhaps .001" larger, .155" rather than .154" (not sure about the latter). But, the pins are grooved and held in place (captured) by the legs on the springs, just as with mil-spec components. Of course, Geissele has improved two stage geometry, vastly more precise machining, and different spring material and rates. I do not use anti-walk pins. They may well be a step backward for me. I do agree that just because US military does something does not necessarily make it the best way. But, the system used in its trigger group to keep the pins in place does not benefit materially from "anti-walk" pins. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 8:05:59 PM EDT
[#39]
In an in-spec lower with in-spec FCG parts, you don’t need anti-walk pins because the FCG parts themselves retain the pins.
The hammer spring legs (the parts that stick back) sit in the cut outs in the trigger. Standard trigger and hammer pins have a groove at one end that the hammer spring sits in, retaining the trigger pin. The hammer has, inside it, a “J spring.” It sticks into the hammer pin bore and when the center groove of the hammer pin goes all the way in, the J spring snaps into it, retaining it. When I build a lower, I make sure both the hammer and trigger pins go in the same way. This basically tells me which direction to remove the pins. You see, if you start or remove the hammer pin in the wrong direction, that J spring will catch the end groove on the pin and make you use substantial amounts of foul language. Now anti-ROTATION pins are a different matter. Standard hammer and trigger pins CAN and often do rotate with the parts, particularly the hammer (because the J spring is really good at holding the pin). With 80% lowers, collectible, registered or heirloom lowers, anti-rotation pins may be indicated. And blowback lowers (like almost every 9mm lower) don’t “egg out” because pins walk, but rather from having the hammer pins rotate HEAVILY and SHARPLY. Again these lowers could benefit from anti0rotation pins. And just for grins, M60 Joe used to do a mod for registered lowers; he’d insert steel bushings (from the inside) to protect the lower from wear. Sadly, Joe got out of the business, and one amazing resource for the NFA community is gone. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:10:36 PM EDT
[#40]
Frankly I think the entire argument over anti-walk pins is a bit silly. What I mean is, if you don't use them and you never have a problem with pins backing out, then your good. If you do use them, and you never have a problem with pins backing out, then your good.
That's the whole point, not having your trigger or hammer pins coming out on their own, isn't it?? I seen no evidence that using them (KNS non rotating pins for example) on any trigger system and them causing a problem of any sort. After all we are talking about a part that cost $30. or less. I wasted far more money on stuff that didn't give me near the piece of mind that the simple addition of KNS Non Rotating have done. It's your money, spend or not how you like...... IMHO and YMMV |
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Posted: 3/28/2021 4:18:38 PM EDT
[#41]
Completely unnecessary. Anyone who says otherwise spends time on the internet and not on the gun.
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Posted: 3/30/2021 6:29:56 PM EDT
[#42]
For 80% lowers the over sized anti rotate pins from KNS are a must . Other wise no but them they are mot bad,,especially the oversized pins. Gisele triggers used over sized pins.
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Posted: 3/30/2021 9:28:38 PM EDT
[#43]
Bill’s pins are 0.155” diameter, versus the standard 0.154” pins. They are “oversized,” but only nominally. The nominal size of the trigger and hammer pin holes in a lower is 0.1560”, so this +.001 “over” size is really just minimizing slop.
AR Lower Blueprint |
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Posted: 3/30/2021 9:49:27 PM EDT
[#44]
Gimmicks. I have been around ARs since the mid 80s and have NEVER seen pins walk out of any of them.
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Posted: 3/31/2021 6:17:38 PM EDT
[#45]
I like them, have them but don't need them. I have lots of things I don't need.
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Posted: 4/3/2021 7:56:58 PM EDT
[#46]
Not Essential.
But 3 of my AR’s have them. |
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Posted: 4/3/2021 8:41:50 PM EDT
[#47]
Never had a pin walk in decades of ar shooting.
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Posted: 5/27/2021 1:28:52 AM EDT
[#48]
Anti-WALK pins are only useful for the drop in triggers that don't have any other way to hold them in place.
Anti-ROTATION pins might be useful to help keep the hammer pin holes from getting worn on a full auto. If you have a registered machinegun that is going for... what like 20k now?... a $40 part is cheap peace of mind. The KNS pins are this type. They don't allow the hammer and trigger pins to rotate in the receiver when firing. Otherwise the hammer pin turns a little every time the hammer is cocked and fired. The anti walk pins just keep the pins from coming out if there is nothing else to hold them in. Usually because the trigger doesn't use springs or set screws to hold the pins in place. Sometimes because the receiver or parts are out of spec. |
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Posted: 5/27/2021 10:13:47 AM EDT
[#49]
I have one lower I have to use anti walk pins on. ASA lower from the 90s. Was fine for years and started walking the trigger pin out.
Tried a new pin, tried new springs. Double and triple checked everything was installed correctly. This was back when Bushmaster had the only anti walk pins around with the C clips. Fixed the problem. |
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Posted: 5/27/2021 11:12:48 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bill’s pins are 0.155” diameter, versus the standard 0.154” pins. They are “oversized,” but only nominally. The nominal size of the trigger and hammer pin holes in a lower is 0.1560”, so this +.001 “over” size is really just minimizing slop. AR Lower Blueprint You are forgetting the 0.001" +/- 0.0002" thick anodizing, half of which goes into the surface, and half of which builds up on top. "NOTE: 1. ALL DIMENSIONS APPLY BEFORE FINISH EXCEPT AS NOTED." That can reduce the diameter of the hole by 0.0005 to 0.0006" on each side, or 0.001" to 0.0012" total. The minimum finished hole diameter is 0.1548", and aN interference fit is not, in my opinion, a good thing. |
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