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Posted: 11/25/2018 2:35:14 PM EDT
[#1]
No offense... but, welcome to the world of NO Mil-Spec Large frame AR's.
From Andersons webpage , and their lower AM-10 discription. "Must Be used With An Anderson MFG Upper"... and vice versa... "****This 308 Upper has to be used on an ANDERSON 308 Lower****" Numerous manufacturers have this Large Frame issue. Maybe you could measure some of the more critical points and I could compare them to my PSA's... ( Not that it would answer all the needed info.. but it is a start ) IE... distance between the front and rear pivot pins, depth of the lugs, pivot pin hole depth's on the lugs... odd stuff like that. |
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Posted: 11/25/2018 3:01:55 PM EDT
[#2]
None taken. I am well aware of the maze in the 308 ar types. That is why I went the Aero M5 route for my 7mm-08 build. Can get all the AP parts I need and will just have to have the barrel made.
Early 2000's I looked at the Bushmaster fal mag rifles, G3 mags lowers and modified M14 mag types. Didn't see the need or expense for it and went the Grendel route. I just traded a complete ar-15 for the complete AM-10 lower. Good deal for me and another build. With what Anderson puts on their website, and an email I sent them about the availability of just their upper, I thought maybe someone has been here before, or knows of someplace to get just an AM-10 upper. |
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Posted: 11/26/2018 11:59:55 AM EDT
[#3]
Frankly, I'd give Anderson a phone call... tell them your situation and see if they would sell you the needed parts. IMHO , you have nothing to lose by calling them.
Which may require their barrel nut and FF Tube. |
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Posted: 11/26/2018 12:50:37 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No offense... but, welcome to the world of NO Mil-Spec Large frame AR's. From Andersons webpage , and their lower AM-10 discription. "Must Be used With An Anderson MFG Upper"... and vice versa... "****This 308 Upper has to be used on an ANDERSON 308 Lower****" Numerous manufacturers have this Large Frame issue. Maybe you could measure some of the more critical points and I could compare them to my PSA's... ( Not that it would answer all the needed info.. but it is a start ) IE... distance between the front and rear pivot pins, depth of the lugs, pivot pin hole depth's on the lugs... odd stuff like that. What they find out, is during testing and making their own stuff, they get everything to work really well. During batch testing, nothing works quite well unless they use all of their own parts. So they have to throw that disclaimer out. Us end users have muchd ifferent experiences, ranging across the board. Alot of these receivers DO mix and match, but there is no one testing all this out. Measurements help alot, but not always. Most of these things can also be made to work for each other after midifying it slightly, with a file or hammer for instance. 
It sucks there is no standard, but I dont trust anything Anderson, took me a long time to even consider PSA. So, youll also have varying recommendations as well. I dont like to shop the bargain bins, I personally always have bad luck doing that with anything. I shop for firearms like I shop for tools. How hard can I be on this before replacing it? Usually, I always end up on the mid grade stuff. Best bang for the dollar in my opinion. Cheap stuff doesnt work as good, takes more effort to get it to work good, more expensive stuff doesnt always work better, and usually takes more technique to truly see any benefit if there is any present. Goldilocks man, applies to everything. Anyways, good luck in the quest. Thats part of the fun for me. Now im too the point where I want to force things to work together. Or make my own. |
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Posted: 11/26/2018 1:27:55 PM EDT
[#5]
I sent an email over the weekend since I figured nobody would answer the phone. Received a reply back this morning from Chris VanCleave.
"We do not sell stripped AM10 uppers and lowers as we cannot guarantee that another manufacturers receivers and forearms will match ours. There is no standard on receivers in the industry for AR10 style receivers so each manufacturers will fit differently and can cause issues. All available AM10 components can be found here. (On their website) " I can buy a stripped upper and lower with the handguard and separate LPK from the website contrary to what Mr. VanCleave said. I just don't want to buy another stripped lower or complete upper and pay for parts I'll never use unless I am left with no other choice. If Anderson made a 7mm-08 barrel I would be good to go. That is why I posted hoping someone might know of where to get an Anderson AM-10 upper with or without handguards, or know if another upper would fit. I'm in no hurry as I am going with Aero Precision M5 parts too and that looks a lot easier to finish up. I knew the AM-10 might be a problem trying to piece something together but figured worst case scenario is buy a complete upper and then buy a new barrel. Would be nice if Anderson offered just the upper and handguard. Short version, I would love to buy the Anderson upper and handguard. Can't find them outside a complete upper or with the lower. One lower is all i need. |
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Posted: 11/29/2018 12:16:06 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I sent an email over the weekend since I figured nobody would answer the phone. Received a reply back this morning from Chris VanCleave. "We do not sell stripped AM10 uppers and lowers as we cannot guarantee that another manufacturers receivers and forearms will match ours. There is no standard on receivers in the industry for AR10 style receivers so each manufacturers will fit differently and can cause issues. All available AM10 components can be found here. (On their website) " I can buy a stripped upper and lower with the handguard and separate LPK from the website contrary to what Mr. VanCleave said. I just don't want to buy another stripped lower or complete upper and pay for parts I'll never use unless I am left with no other choice. If Anderson made a 7mm-08 barrel I would be good to go. That is why I posted hoping someone might know of where to get an Anderson AM-10 upper with or without handguards, or know if another upper would fit. I'm in no hurry as I am going with Aero Precision M5 parts too and that looks a lot easier to finish up. I knew the AM-10 might be a problem trying to piece something together but figured worst case scenario is buy a complete upper and then buy a new barrel. Would be nice if Anderson offered just the upper and handguard. Short version, I would love to buy the Anderson upper and handguard. Can't find them outside a complete upper or with the lower. One lower is all i need. Sadly, that might doom AM10's I briefly looked at various GunBroker type search results.. looking for used ( or anything ) to no avail. Maybe search places like that frequently. |
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Posted: 12/5/2018 2:56:10 PM EDT
[#7]
I've been doing a lot of looking. Sent Guntec an email about their upper that says it will fit any lower. They replied they thought it should but didn't know Anderson was was making a 308 lower. Wasn't to inspired about the "think it should" but they sent a link to one of their dealers that had the stripped upper on sale for $69. That made it an easier decision to experiment with.
Got the upper and complete lower, which was missing the buffer and spring, and they didn't fit. Pins looked like they would line up so I took the files to the lower since it had a lot more aluminum. Relieved inside the lower in front of the receiver extension where the upper was making contact with the lower. File, check fit, file and repeat untill just enough was removed to let the upper close. Pins locked the receivers just fine. There is a small, equal gap front to back between the two. Profiles are a bit different but not to bad. Still need to put the finishing touch on the lower to make it look nice and will use Birchwood aluminum black to make it look better. Upper parts kit and BCG are ordered and Anderson said they would send the buffer and spring. Once everything gets here hopefully next week I can see if there are going to be any other issues. One step at a time. Still researching the 7mm-08 barrel situation so I put regular snap on handguards on it. |
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Posted: 12/5/2018 6:16:45 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been doing a lot of looking. Sent Guntec an email about their upper that says it will fit any lower. They replied they thought it should but didn't know Anderson was was making a 308 lower. Wasn't to inspired about the "think it should" but they sent a link to one of their dealers that had the stripped upper on sale for $69. That made it an easier decision to experiment with. Got the upper and complete lower, which was missing the buffer and spring, and they didn't fit. Pins looked like they would line up so I took the files to the lower since it had a lot more aluminum. Relieved inside the lower in front of the receiver extension where the upper was making contact with the lower. File, check fit, file and repeat untill just enough was removed to let the upper close. Pins locked the receivers just fine. There is a small, equal gap front to back between the two. Profiles are a bit different but not to bad. Still need to put the finishing touch on the lower to make it look nice and will use Birchwood aluminum black to make it look better. Upper parts kit and BCG are ordered and Anderson said they would send the buffer and spring. Once everything gets here hopefully next week I can see if there are going to be any other issues. One step at a time. Still researching the 7mm-08 barrel situation so I put regular snap on handguards on it. |
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Posted: 12/6/2018 10:38:56 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote from @mindfogg
"First picture is of the fit as new between the guntec upper and AM-10 lower. #2 is the fit after file work. #3-4 show where I relieved the lower to get the upper to close. This was just rough file work and no finishing has been done to clean up the lower." 
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Posted: 12/6/2018 10:40:51 PM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 12/11/2018 6:57:56 AM EDT
[#11]
Anderson sent the missing buffer and spring. I'm really surprised by the customer service from Anderson, first class! Got the upper parts kit from Guntec and a Toolcraft 6.5 BCG. Everything seems to be playing nice. Trying to get in touch with McGowan about building a 7mm-08 barrel. Want to put standard a2 handguards on. Thinking about a YHM rail gas block and their QD flash hider so I can mount my can. Any thoughts on barrel length? Not sure so I'm thinking 18 inches.
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Posted: 12/11/2018 12:18:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anderson sent the missing buffer and spring. I'm really surprised by the customer service from Anderson, first class! Got the upper parts kit from Guntec and a Toolcraft 6.5 BCG. Everything seems to be playing nice. Trying to get in touch with McGowan about building a 7mm-08 barrel. Want to put standard a2 handguards on. Thinking about a YHM rail gas block and their QD flash hider so I can mount my can. Any thoughts on barrel length? Not sure so I'm thinking 18 inches. Or you would have to do a dissipator setup of somekind. |
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Posted: 12/11/2018 3:47:59 PM EDT
[#13]
That is exactly whag I have realized after lots of reading here and other places. Wilson combat barrels gas block seat are too short for what I want to do. X-Caliber doesn't make the Armalite length gas system from what I can see. McGowan is about the only one I can readily find that will do a 7mm-08 barrel like I'm looking for. Sure there are plenty of others who can make the barrel but they don't pop up as easily when doing a search. I've got my DPMS barrel nuts and the 308 delta ring assemblies are on the way. Looks like barrel nut torque is 65 ft. lbs. and with no need to index, I may have to remove the little notches inside the rear of the handguard that engages the teeth on the barrel nut. I'll probably do up this Anderson first and then will know even better on what to do with the Aero Precision stuff.
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Posted: 12/11/2018 5:33:53 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I dont recall exact dimensions, but youll need to make your gas tube Armalite AR10 length to be able to use the Handguards. The delta assembly on the AR10s and other AR308s are bigger in every way compared tot he AR15, so the gas port has to slide a bit further. Or you would have to do a dissipator setup of somekind. |
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Posted: 12/11/2018 8:00:44 PM EDT
[#15]
From what I've been able to learn is if you want to use snap in handguards you need the Armalite length. Dpms pattern is about 0.2 inches shorter and the handguards wont fit. If I was going to use a free float tube or some other system it wouldn't matter.
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Posted: 12/11/2018 10:10:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I've been able to learn is if you want to use snap in handguards you need the Armalite length. Dpms pattern is about 0.2 inches shorter and the handguards wont fit. If I was going to use a free float tube or some other system it wouldn't matter. 
https://www.dpmsinc.com/308-Classic_ep_100-1.html |
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Posted: 12/12/2018 10:23:30 AM EDT
[#17]
Again, I am not sure if this is a Anderson thing...But DPMS shows this...
"Gas Tube Standard, this is the same for all our 223 small caliber style rifles and Barrel Assemblies and 308 large caliber style rifles and barrel assemblies. 15 1/4 inch Length https://www.dpmsinc.com/Gas-Tube-Standard-Length_p_2056.html |
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Posted: 12/12/2018 12:21:21 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Again, I am not sure if this is a Anderson thing...But DPMS shows this... "Gas Tube Standard, this is the same for all our 223 small caliber style rifles and Barrel Assemblies and 308 large caliber style rifles and barrel assemblies. 15 1/4 inch Length https://www.dpmsinc.com/Gas-Tube-Standard-Length_p_2056.html Unless you do a dissipator setup. This is not really mfg based as much as physics based. Something has to be done to use standard handguards on the large frame ARs. Armalite moved the gas port, i think PSA does the same. Dpms did on the classic, i think the others had different Delta assemblies. Need to research more into that, because my focus has mainly been Armalite. You can get a barrel made no problem from Krieger, compass lake, maybe white oak? You give them dimensions.... |
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Posted: 12/12/2018 2:48:25 PM EDT
[#19]
What about the barrel extensions? I have the Guntec upper on the Anderson lower now and will need to get the Aero M5 upper for their lower. Are the two extensions the same, almost the same or not interchangeable? At the moment I am looking at getting the dpms extension with the Armalite gas length. The DPMS classic is pretty much what I'm going for, just a few different changes.
I didn't see the 7mm-08 as an option from White Oak, or a lot of the others. Kreiger I didn't look too hard at but I didn't think they made a lightweight profile. Maybe they will and I just needed to dig deeper. I could always visit family and order in person from Kreiger. Another question to the knowledgeable. How much blank is needed to make a barrel? I just found that Mike Rock, or Rock Creek barrels are just around the hill from the kids place. Will buying their blak, think I can get it in 33 inches, be enough to make an 18 and 16 inch barrel? That way I can have my two barrels. The Rock 5R used for my 300 Whisper has brought me satisfaction. |
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Posted: 12/13/2018 12:51:28 AM EDT
[#20]
Some more food for thought. I was just looking at the Windham site. It looks like their lowers are real similar to the Anderson. Looks like both are using the same forgings (keyhole) and the Windham upper looks like it has a profile that would match the AM-10. I just found that out so it's to late for me. Big question is the final machine work, are they compatible?
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Posted: 12/13/2018 9:17:31 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What about the barrel extensions? I have the Guntec upper on the Anderson lower now and will need to get the Aero M5 upper for their lower. Are the two extensions the same, almost the same or not interchangeable? At the moment I am looking at getting the dpms extension with the Armalite gas length. The DPMS classic is pretty much what I'm going for, just a few different changes. I didn't see the 7mm-08 as an option from White Oak, or a lot of the others. Kreiger I didn't look too hard at but I didn't think they made a lightweight profile. Maybe they will and I just needed to dig deeper. I could always visit family and order in person from Kreiger. Another question to the knowledgeable. How much blank is needed to make a barrel? I just found that Mike Rock, or Rock Creek barrels are just around the hill from the kids place. Will buying their blak, think I can get it in 33 inches, be enough to make an 18 and 16 inch barrel? That way I can have my two barrels. The Rock 5R used for my 300 Whisper has brought me satisfaction. Krieger will make anything you want it you got the patience and money. Rock Creek are great barrels and blanks. It's my understanding you could get a blank in atleast 24" to make and profile a 20" barrel. You don't need 33" to make a 16" barrel. Windham i don't think interchanges very well. I don't know for sure, but i think they've done something a little different so you can't mix and match receivers. But you should be able to mix and match parts. |
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Posted: 12/13/2018 9:24:34 PM EDT
[#22]
Since I have to get a barrel made it should be easy to get the right extension. I didn't know how much blank was needed for turning a barrel. Thought maybe I could squeeze a 16 and 18 inch barrel out of a 34 inch blank. Now the next questions are about mid length gas systems and handguard compatibility.
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Posted: 12/13/2018 11:50:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Length doesn't matter gas block size does.
A shaved down FSB is what i use for lopro gas blocks. Will either get it pinned while still whole, then remove to profile, or just tap the bottom flats for set screws before profiling, then run the tap again just to clean it up. That's gonna be a research deal or trial and error if you can't get dimensions. |
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Posted: 12/14/2018 1:02:18 AM EDT
[#24]
I'm not going for low profile. Handguards won't go past the cap at the gas block shoulder. My goal is to use standard snap on handguards. Was just reading elsewhere on the forum that Armalite's 308 carbine length gas tube is a bit longer than an ar-15 mid length. Said Armalite only make two lengths for the 308, rifle and carbine. In Ar-15 speak that would be rifle and mid length, with both being a bit longer. With the Guntec upper fitting nicely on the Anderson lower it looks like I might be in business. Wait for a bit of cash and then wait for the barrel to be made.
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Posted: 12/14/2018 4:53:05 AM EDT
[#25]
Derp, forgot the topic at hand for a moment.
Armalite AR10 carbines are mid length. But the gas tube itself is longer than mid length ar15 tubes, handguards are the same. There might be some plastic handguards out there that have a thinner channel at the rear that snaps over the barrel nut. These don't fit the AR10 barrel nut. But majority have the wider channel, if I'm not mistaken. |
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Posted: 12/14/2018 8:33:46 PM EDT
[#26]
Thanks for the confirmation info. Not a problem on the the oversight. Guess I'm just one of the odd ducks at the moment wanting a none freefloat standard handguard 7mm-08 AR.
Been sending emails to see about a BHW barrel. Not a lot of confidence there. Seems they can't really grasp someone wanting a barrel for something other than tube or rail use. They did suggest sending in my barrel, that I don't have, so they can use that to duplicate one in 7mm-08. Have read nothing but good about BHW barrels but at $85 an hour to set up and make/ duplicate I think McGowan looks like a lot better option. The handguards I took off one of the 15's work fine on the dpms barrel nut and delta assembly I have. Only issue might be the molded in tabs in the rear channel that engages the splines on the nut. Those would be easy to deal with. Now I just wish McGowan would get back to me. Guess a phone call is easy to do too. |
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Posted: 12/17/2018 12:22:55 AM EDT
[#27]
Here is a link to the nuances concerning gas tube length's .. Armalite v. DPMS.
IMHO, it explains it very well... ( I stubbled across it looking for barrel extension dimensions, of all things. ) Basically, Armalite scaled up things... DPMS choose to use as many AR15 parts a possible. ( for good or bad ) ... actually it is quite informative. Be aware, there is differences between the two patterns... so don't just randomly swap different pattern parts. It might work, it might not. And Ironically, I still find the same barrel nut to AR15 gas tube angled issue today... even in newer designed DPMS patterned Large Frame AR's... while all my Semi-autos run fine with that shorter gas tube.. that angled AR15 gas tube issue doesn't help accuracy. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Are_the_gas_tubes_the_same_for_AR_15andapos_s_and_AR__308andapos_s_/121-683619/ |
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Posted: 12/17/2018 9:54:58 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is a link to the nuances concerning gas tube length's .. Armalite v. DPMS. IMHO, it explains it very well... ( I stubbled across it looking for barrel extension dimensions, of all things. ) Basically, Armalite scaled up things... DPMS choose to use as many AR15 parts a possible. ( for good or bad ) ... actually it is quite informative. Be aware, there is differences between the two patterns... so don't just randomly swap different pattern parts. It might work, it might not. And Ironically, I still find the same barrel nut to AR15 gas tube angled issue today... even in newer designed DPMS patterned Large Frame AR's... while all my Semi-autos run fine with that shorter gas tube.. that angled AR15 gas tube issue doesn't help accuracy. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Are_the_gas_tubes_the_same_for_AR_15andapos_s_and_AR__308andapos_s_/121-683619/
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Posted: 12/18/2018 2:00:43 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Loved that thread. I learned something
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Posted: 12/26/2018 12:26:32 AM EDT
[#30]
I did run across that post in my searches. That's were I figured I would need the Armalite length gas system to make use of standard handguards. Going to get one each of the Armalite gas tubes. I have read where people order the Armalite tubes and are sent regular ar-15 length tubes. Armalite only has rifle length in stock last time I looked.
Since the Anderson is farther along than the Aero build I'm going to order a 16" barrel first. Will take a few weeks to get it made so I have time to decide on which glass I want to use. |
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Posted: 1/7/2019 4:07:05 PM EDT
[#31]
Some more information for any who care. The Aero Precision m5 upper won't fit on the Anderson lower. The work I did to fit the Guntec upper let the takedown pin go through, but the spacing between the two lugs is off. A person could work the front lug for the pivot pin to close, but you would still have to do work on the lower too. If you put the pivot pin in first, the upper won't close down on the AM-10 lower. I personally don't think I would oblong the M5 front lug (on the back side) but it doesn't look like it would take much. The lines for both uppers don't match, but I think the Guntec upper's line blend a bit better. Just my findings.
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Posted: 1/9/2019 8:48:02 AM EDT
[#32]
I have to disagree with the aero upper. This thread inspired me to do. Some of my own testing. I have a complete Anderson AM10 rifle. It’s pretty heavy so I thought it might be a fun project. Delta Team Tactical had some pretty good deals around Christmas so I bought an upper kit for $269. Nice fluted stainless steel barrel, aero upper and a nice keymod forearm.
Because of this thread I knew I would have to do some grinding. I also knew I wanted to keep my original upper usable so I didn’t want to modify the lower. So my plan was to modify the aero upper. You are correct that the aero upper doesn’t fit quite right out of the box however with some grinding to the rear of the upper and a little grinding to the front pivot pin hole lug ( needed to do this so the upper could swing open) it upper fit like a champ. I just finished assembly this past weekend. I will take some pictures of my work and post if I can figure out how. |
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Posted: 1/9/2019 11:13:37 PM EDT
[#33]
Watching this thread with keen interest! I'm wanting to get into the 308 AR game also. Impulse bought a Noreen BN 308 complete lower (brand new) at a Wyoming gunshow over the weekend. Billet lower, and a new Brownels alum. Mag fits, so bought that. Now watching for a 308 upper. My sons PSA Gen 2 6.5 Creed upper will fit on, pins aligned okay, but bolt carrier drags bad, have to work it shut with forward assist. No harm, no foul..keep looking. Gunshow in Post falls Idaho in two weeks where there is a dealer for Areo Presision. Will check with him.
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Posted: 1/10/2019 9:01:50 PM EDT
[#34]
BaldnHarry, I would have done the exact same thing you are doing if the Anderson lower was all I had on hand. From the sound of it you didn't have to go to crazy on fitting the aero upper. I got my Aero lower when it was on sale for $90. Then a week later I got the trade deal on the Anderson. I only planned on doing one large frame AR in 7mm-08 but now it's two. My situation was reversed from you, didn't want to alter the upper so I did the lower. Now I'm waiting on barrels.
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Posted: 1/10/2019 9:23:46 PM EDT
[#35]
LesStaley, if you like projects I think your looking in the right direction. My original goal was to just use Aero parts when I saw the sale on the lower. The Anderson put me in a good mood when I couldn't find any useful info on it. A real project since I want a 7mm-08 with standard handguards. As everyone has said before me, do your research! I read it so much I took it to heart and so far it has worked without buying anything I couldn't use. Lots knowledgable people here and they have made my journey into the unknown a lot less painful on the mind and wallet.
One question, is the carrier dragging on the hammer or the receiver extension (buffer tube)? I thought my toolcraft carrier was dragging on the extension, but I was playing with parts when I changed out the factory Anderson trigger parts and found no drag with the hammer out. Put the hammer back in and the drag was back. |
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Posted: 1/15/2019 11:02:59 PM EDT
[#36]
Have to update since I think was wrong about the Aero M5 upper. Finally picked up my Aero lower over the weekend. Got home and put all the Aero lower parts in it. Was playing with Guntec upper on the Aero lower. No problems! Got me wondering why it would fit but the Aero upper didn't fit on the Anderson lower. Put the M5 upper back on the AM-10 lower and the pins almost went in. Just put the pivot in and was able to close it with slight drag between the rear of the front lug and the front side of the lower. Closed it completely and the takedown pin just slid in. With the aluminum removal I did to the Anderson lower the Aero upper fit nicely. Now i also have to change my opinion as I think the Aero upper looks better on the Anderson lower than the guntec does.
The charging handle does sit higher off the Anderson lower with either upper. Hope it helps. |
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Posted: 1/20/2019 9:09:40 AM EDT
[#37]
So I finally found a image hosting site.
Here is what I did to my aero upper to make it fit to my Anderson lower 
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Posted: 1/20/2019 9:15:28 AM EDT
[#38]
Well the links work but evidently I didn’t post right to have the images show.
Haven’t taken it out yet to test but everything seems to fit nicely and cycle correctly with a snap cap/dummy round |
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Posted: 1/20/2019 10:19:13 AM EDT
[#39]
Forgot the side view showing the upper and lower together.
Gives me an excuse to try to embed the photo a few different ways https://i.postimg.cc/Dwb9Qxp1/9-B2-F0-F46-C997-46-E3-9-AA2-923-E15-B3-D47-C.jpg 
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Posted: 1/29/2019 12:01:01 AM EDT
[#40]
Update time! Had a table at the gun show this weekend, took the Noreen lower along to try some uppers on for size. All the dealers had were unknown name brands in uppers, over priced in my opinion, like a carbon steel (as in not stainless) with no bolt/carrier or charging handle for $400 and another $150 for b/c and ch, so I passed on these. Sold some stuff, and a guy twisted my arm and bought the Noreen Lower, and saved my $ for an online shopping spree at PSA. Found some great deals on a blem 18" SS 308 upper with carrier, bolt and Ch for $399, and a complete lower with 2 stage enhanced trigger (1-3/4#/1-3/4#), the nice Magpul 6 position stock for $249. Got a couple P mags coming from Cheaper than Durt. Should be good to go! Will keep you posted!
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