I know before you all say. "I'd never shoot that shit through my..."

That set aside, At $200 for 1000 rounds you can buy a new replacement Colt bolt and come in well under $300 as you would with 1000 rounds of Federal, AE, etc.

So, what's the difference between Tula, Brown Bear, etc. with function, etc.

Thanks for the heads up and information.

V
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The extra cost for brass cased is highly negligible compared to the extra wear and tear from using steel that effects more than just the bolt.

I see no benefits and the only gains is for maybe doing it out of spite if a pay for range won't let you get your brass back. I want my brass back, I reload. And what I won't reload, I know people that either will or will convert to 300 BO.

I  digress.

I have a cheap budget beater that I paid under 300 bucks for, so I have no problems having it shot with steel cased for when it's a loaner or for shooting at rocks because minute of barn ammunition is a waste of my time and efforts for anything but that.

I shoot steel cased for close range just so I'm not tempted to try and pick up brass.    For longer ranged shooting I can just use a brass catcher.

I hate letting brass go to waste.   You get about 40% more steel cased rounds per dollar, too, which isn't really trivial.

Exactly - so chime in on what you have dealt with in experience with Steel ammo.

V
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Barnaul makes the “Bears,” makes Acadamy Sports’ “Monarch Steel” line, and makes current (and well reviewed) Wolf steel cased ammo.  They are not in the business of making match grade ammunition, but it is reliable, consistent, and affordable.  I’ve gone through a lot of their products, in a number of calibers, and I’ve been very pleased.

With that said, if all you’re looking at is price, it is possible to get brass cased ammunition for a very small premium over what you’ll pay for Russian made steel cased rounds.  The various conflicts Russia has fingers in at the moment have also led to a tightened supply chain and raised prices, so there’s a possibility that the brass ammo premium may shrink because the steel stuff gets more expensive.

I would NOT buy Tula-made ammunition for any serious purpose.  In my experience it is not consistent enough for training or plinking.  I don’t mind finding their .40 and .45 cases at the range though, since they are Boxer primed and reload just fine.

honestly the biggest issue ive ever had with any of the steel cased ammo brands is a single bad primer. thats all i can remember.

ive had lc, mke, perfecta and federal fuck up more often than tula or barnaul ammo.

When I used to shoot a lot, I got a couple of stuck cases with wolf in a colt carbine.

I am pretty sure it was because I used dry lube that caused a little too much friction while the bolt was unlocking. I never had an issue after I started running wet, but then I also only rarely shoot steel cased ammo since then.

So lube the bolt and barrel extension and you should be free from that issue.

No problems with steel at all in x39 AKs.

I've not had any issues with Wolf in my 11.5" DD upper and oddly enough the POI is only about 1 inch different between it and 77gr Federal Match

BAD: Tulammo

GOOD: Wolf, and Bear

Only have about 2k rounds of Tula through a couple ars. No problems at all.

I've pretty much shot exclusivly steel cased ammo though all of my guns, for as long as I've shot guns, the majority of my life at this point.  Nearly all of it is Barnaul manuf.  The only steel cased ammo issues I've had over the years has been some Tula manufactured WOLF from back when they were still making it.  When Barnaul took over WOLF manuf those problems cleared up.

WIth the steel cased ammos you are going to see lower velocities, less accuracy (still good enough for most instances unless youre going for outright precision at longer ranges), and a little dirtier, but I go 1000 or more rounds between cleanings and never had a problem with it being that much more dirty than domestic brass cased ammo.  Yes they do cause more wear if they are using bimetal bullets.  There is a version of WOLF that uses regular copper jacketed projectiles if you want such a thing but it costs more.

The Lucky Gunner test everyone likes to post about proved the wear issue BUT, they shot their guns fast and hot which will greatly accelerate wear.  Most people will never put enough ammo though any gun to wear it out anyway.   The only times I've seen guns have real issues with steel case outside of that Tula Manuf WOLF, it was always something wrong with the gun, not the ammo.

Your wallet will be much heavier.  Looking on SG ammo right now a 1000 rounds of WOLF 55grn FMJ is 20 cent a round.  Some Barnaul manuf 62gr SP is 22 cents a round which is what I stack as deep as I can.  The cheapest brass case I can find on there is WOLF GOLD 55grn at 27 cents a round.  Now you may be thinking 5 to 7 cents per round extra isn't a big deal.  If you go by the Lucky Gunner data and you decide to replace your barrel at 10,000 rounds or so you would have saved 500-700 dollars in ammo costs.  That equals a lot more ammo to shoot and with the cost of AR15 barrels you could buy 4 or 5 barrels with money left over.  Even if you replaced at 5000 rounds you'd still be pretty well ahead.  But I bet with a more "normal" rate of fire than what the Lucky Gunner guys did you'd see far more than 10,000 round barrel life.

In the end you'll have to decide what you want to do, personally I'll buy extra ammo and shoot more.  And when it really comes down to it if I have a gun that wont run steel case for whatever reason I'd rather not have that in my gun safe anyway.

Barnaul plant ammo for the win here, overall it's the best bang for the buck in cheap steel ammo.
I still prefer Wolf gold overall for range use, but the Barnaul 62 gr. SP stuff is great. Wolf is available in a copper jacketed bullet as well.
Other than Tula's 154 gr. 7.62x39 SPs, I'll pass on Tula unless it's super cheap. it's worth an extra penny or two more for Barnaul.

In my experience with steel cased ammo I found that Wolf and Bear, Horniday training  ammo good. Tula, and Hertinberg(spl ?) not so good. But I have also noticed excessive barrel wear. I have a mid length barrel that key holes after only 5 years of use because I believe that the steel in the bullets from steel cased Russian ammo wears the barrel out quicker. That is the only reason that I can see for a barrel with about 10K rounds through if being shot out. The vast majority of those rounds being steel cased. Oddly enough the bolt and carrier still feel fairly tight.

Buy another barrel or two with the 4 to 500 dollars you saved over brass

As long as the chamber is chromed, and it is not my 5 yr old remaining Tula crap batch, it has been fine for 20 yrs for me.

The math says otherwise.  If you can save 5 cents a round, after 10,000 rounds you will save 500 dollars.  Replace barrel and extractor and you have a brand new barrel and an extra $250ish dollars.

Steel is softer than your bolt, the whole wear issue is way overblown.  Lots of bimetal bullets with brass too and yet no issue.  The issue is the powders and pressure curves related to heat AT RAPID FIRE.  Even then, it's over thousands of rounds.  You will not damage your rifle using steel, if you thinks so, show the emperical evidence.

I've got 10s of thousands of rounds downrange and a good portion in steel.  I love it and will use it

I'll shoot steel cased through my beater guns without hesitation.

The only time I'd be wary of it would be if I had high end barrels...but none of the rifles I shoot steel through are in that category.

If I burn a barrel out with steel, I probably saved more $ shooting steel than it cost me to rebarrel an ar.  It's not hard and cheap barrels are ubiquitous.

You can find basic barrels for $100 right now.  If you only have to replace that, you are still ahead by a good margin.

Your logic for that math sucks.

I don't buy bargain bin barrels or bolts because I am not poor so I don't have to be a peasant. I buy premium barrels. The very fact that you're trying to talj me into burning a premium barrel is pretty stupid. And when I replace barrels, i also replace the whole BCG. So math some more buddy to include a carrier that is,Toolcraft and coated by Fail Zero. Now math replacements for 100 dollar AR500 silhouettes that are 1 inch full IPSC that the bi metal jackets will make unsafe. Now we're in the thousands that I'd have to spend.

F no. That's idiotic.

And it's not even good ammunition to boot.

No gains. None.

Brass cased > steel junk

I'm glad you have such deep pockets to be able to not be poor.

And your brass cased ammo is destroying your AR500 targets more than any steel case will unless you're talking steel core which none of the ammo discussed in this thread is.  The lower velocity of the steel cased ammo is causing far less wear and tear.  Steel case damages my steel targets less with shots under 50 yards than my M193 spec ammo does at 100.

Just because YOU replace the entire BCG doesn't mean it needs to be done.  Again congrats on having deep pockets.

One big part of what keeps the “steel jacketed bullets are bad, no matter what” myth going is that it’s hard for a lot of people to get their heads around the fact that “steel” is a very broad, blanket term.  To be steel, an alloy has to have (generally) iron and carbon.  That’s it.  Steel can have so many other constituent ingredients that one alloy is basically a completely different metal from another.

Steel can be tough, hard, brittle, malleable, stiff, and of course “pretty darn soft.”  For jacket material to do its job correctly, it needs to be “pretty darn soft,” so steel jacket alloys are formulated to be about as hard and about as flexible as gilding metal, which itself is a brass alloy (95% copper, 5% zinc).

The “steel bad” crowd also ignores the fact that Uncle Sam’s specs for M80 7.62 NATO rounds allow for “bimetal” jacketed bullets, and Uncle’s M14s/M240s haven’t all caught the clap from that ammo...  But now I’m drifting from the subject.

I'm not sure why you're being so flip with the guy. No one indicated you have to "burn" a premium barrel, and suggesting all lower priced barrels are inaccurate is false. You also do not have to replace the carrier(with some expensive one yet) when you get a new barrel. You can get a nice nitrided barrel that shoots moa for $50 delivered if you wait for a sale, and a chrome lined one for $80 if you watch. Just because you want to do it that way is no reason to dump on this guy or say steel cased is crap. That's YOUR opinion and choices.

Saying that my math is off, is pretty flip enough. And you're trying to flip too, saying that cheap barrels are just as good, which is actually false. And I've replaced enough carriers before during service to know that carriers do indeed get worn at the 3rd level of maintenance. And no, I cannot get an MOA barrel for 50 to 80. And for what it's worth, I've indeed tried it your way but the narrative that you're pushing doesn't match what actually happened. I like to shoot accurate guns because they interest me more. Inaccurate PoS guns is not fun. I wasted money and lost money and pissed away good ammunition. No juice was gained because I cheaped out on the squeeze. Then one day, I had enough so I changed that. I researched and researched and spent the night kind of money and saw what premium does and it's been happy range days ever since. And I like to shoot. What you're trying to convince me to do will not make me want to shoot and have fun because minute of barn unsatisfactory!

And I don't wait a sale or for deals, that is just dumb and just why I should wait for things that I want to shoot ASAP, is derpy. I don't live in CT. I live where being able to shoot tens of thousands of rounds a year actually happens because the land is prevelant to do it in and the state is very friendly to shooters. I buy now because it's needed now. Your opinions are not good examples of facts, just opinions that are not relevant or reality based for me.

And we haven't even touched on the benefits as a reloader that brass brings. I don't do it to be cheap, I do it for getting better performance. As obvious as you made yourself out to be, being monetary concerned you of all people, should have realized that.

He was not dumped on by the way, he got treated the same. I said why I don't like steel, but someone just like you, couldn't leave what I said be. And what I said was benign enough to not be an ass to begin with.

So again, steel cased is indeed crap because the cons do exist, it's not going onto my guns. I'm not going to change POV's or concede anything. You do you and don't worry about me. One person not buying steel cased or approval of it will not effect you in any way.

...

No, he made a valid point. Saying you're math is incorrect IS valid. Steel case is good because pros do exist. "I cannot get an MOA barrel for 50 to 80"- Sorry to hear it, I have and can show others I wish to the same deals. ", saying that cheap barrels are just as good"- I didn't say that either. It's pretty evident you're behaving in a snobbish and disrespectful manner. You didn't help anyone out here, and your opinions are opinions, not facts.

Wrong and wrong again. There are no pros to me. Just because you think there are pros, does not make your opinion more relevant than mine.

And I don't care what you have gotten or think of it. Your opinions are still not facts at all. Your feelings do not trump my experiences in this matter, fact.

And you calling me disrespectful when you're being nothing but disrespectful to begin with? Go read, reread, and reread again my first post on this matter. So harmless that only the emotional would try to pick it apart.

There is not one darn thing wrong with a person choosing brass cased non magnetic reloadable cartridges over cheaper steel cased non reloadable bimetal cartridges,  no matter what reason they give or don't give. Fact. Learn to live and let live with that.

Wrong and wrong yourself sir! Stop being so emotional and get your "feelings" under control. Your opinion is just as irrelevant to me and my experience and anyone else who wishes to use steel. Stop trying to tell others what to do. We'll agree to disagree.

PSA has 62gr M855 for .26 cents shipped right now.

You can find Wold gold and Federal M193 55gr brass for that or less sometimes, but all of it is .30c and under.

I haven't shot steel in ages other than 7.62x39, but as one poster mentioned, the older Wolf had issues and one rifle had lots of stuck cases. Steel doesn't expand and contract at the same rate or at the same dimensions as brass. Once it's fired and it expands, it doesn't contract fast and there is more friction to overcome during extraction because of the excess contact surface area. The dirtier your chamber, the worse it is. Some guns with tight chambers will have issues.

The other thing is accuracy. Even at 100 yards it's bad. When I shoot, even at close range, I want accuracy better than what the steel stuff can deliver. I work on fundamentals up close, on very small targets.

I don't do a ton of tactical shooting, but even then, and up close, I would rather shoot brass, mostly because I reload, and I reuse the brass. I can reload 100rds for what 20 rounds of M193 costs, and still a lot cheaper than steel.

I can understand if you're shooting on a range or in some manner that keeps you from picking up your brass. I shoot on my own land or a friend's place for long range.

If you can recover your brass, it's still better to shoot brass. You can sell it on the EE or to someone local. There's not a ton in 5.56 / .223 brass but it will offset the cost difference between steel and brass. Normally it's about .10c a piece, so 1000 pieces is $100. $260.00 shipped PSA M855, minus $100 brass, is $160.00 bucks.

He does this in all his threads.  He's a know it all

I want to know where you are getting 10c a spent case for 223/556 brass

Look in the EE here, scroll way down for the spot to sell your reloading supplies.

I sell medium flat rates of brass for 100 shipped. I keep enough until either it's filled or given away. Filled to capacity of the stuff that I or my friends don't reload, and it's sold off. All once fired by me. It's just another pro for brass cased in my opinion.

There are several kinds of training that require different kinds of ammunition.  A marksman’s accuracy requires a number of things, which include specifically both consistent and accurate ammunition and consistent and accurate trigger management.

If I’m working on JUST trigger management, I want the holes in the paper to be pretty close to each other, but I’m not as interested in making only one hole...  So consistent function and 4+MOA is fine for that specific use.

In my experience, Barnaul’s steel cased .223 (both 55 and 62 grain) has been consistent in all aspects, including hitting the target pretty much where I point the rifle.  It is hardly something you’d call match ammunition.  But if I do my part, I can keep my hits in a 6” circle at 100 yards pretty much all day.  That’s where the utility of this inexpensive stuff really shines.

On the flip side is something like Wolf Gold, which is made to meet M193 standards.  M193 specs require an accuracy of 4 MOA or less, which is fine for mass produced combat ammunition.  When NRA’s Shooting Illustrated tested Wolf Polyformance and Wolf Gold (with a bunch of other rounds), they found that they produced similar accuracy, while only Black Hills, Remington-UMC and American Eagle produced smaller groups.  To me that says that, for JUST trigger practice ammunition, the only benefit to Wolf Gold is that it comes in Boxer primed brass cases - which is a REAL, and important benefit for me.

I will certainly shoot up my stash of Barnaul’s steel cased rounds.  But I’m not going to buy a bunch of steel cased stuff made by other arsenals, particularly Tula.

Don't forget about frangible ammunition, making 50 yards and closer actually safer to use. I won't shoot at any of my steel at nothing less than 100 yards for safety and to protect my plates.

There is no steel cased frangible ammunition. However, there is both projectiles and factory ammunition to make use of it for beass cased.

That's the verification to my theory...Thanks
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This. I have shot 25K through a couple different rifles in the last 11 years. Buy a 2 pack of the BCM extractor spring kit and change the spring every 2-3K to prevent stuck cases. I always use the o ring too. I've never ripped a case rim off even though people say you can.

Jesus Christ dude, stop being such a prick. You're not special because your pockets are deep.

It's not anybody's "feelings" we're talking about here. If you save $500 to $700 on ammunition, then that will still pay for 4 or 5 decent barrels. Or  2 or 3 nice barrels. Or 2 nice barrels and a bolt or two. Facts.

I shoot lots of steel and it's great for my purposes. If you don't want to shoot steel, wait for it........you don't have to.

But I bet you're probably one of those people who has to have the most expensive version of everything, to show to the other people at the gun club how cool and superior you are to them.

You at the range:

"Yeah, my barrel was $600 dollars bro. It would've been basically the same thing as a $300 barrel, but this one is .14 MOA more accurate when it's cloudy and looks cooler bro. It's no big deal. Now get your shitty <$600 barrel and peasant steel-cased ammo away from me before causes me develop a rash on my old shriveled up scrotum."

Do you not have anything else to do besides trying to revive a thread just so you can be that prick and pick a fight?

And you couldn't be more wrong about the entire issue. Facts, bro. You have none.

So well done, you sure did not show me anything. Good job at nothing. Outstanding. Yay for being a zero.

One more troll for the ignore.

LOL. Okay.

I didn't revive it. Someone before me did.

Also I thought this thread was about steel cased ammo? If that's the case, I am right about the money being saved if bought over brass. Though what you choose to buy with said savings is your call.

And for the record, I'm not a zero. I'm at least a 2.