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Posted: 5/6/2021 4:16:35 PM EDT
I was a hairs breath away from forking over $2400 for an LWRC IC SPR.  Then I started picking up on reviews that said it’s really not as accurate as the price tag suggests.  I also am moving to a free state so I figured I’d wait.

Like a lot of people, I am really appreciating the value and build quality of Aero.  So now I’m just trying to hone in on what I should get to balance out what I already have.

I have a DDM4V7 - it’s 16”, 5.56.  I’m using a 1-4x Leupold and offsets on it.  I’m looking for my next rifle to be mid-length, to train and run urban courses with a simple red dot.  That’s why I think the AERO Precision M4E1 16” is a good, affordable move for rifle #2.  But the other argument would be to go 18”.

I only recently learned about 2.23 Wylde barrels, and I like the idea of improved accuracy with the ability to use my 5.56 ammo.  Considering I already have a 5.56, and the ammo, I’m thinking this is a good way to go.

The other option would be an AERO M5E1 18” .308,  CMV - just because I’ve heard it’s a great AR10 for the price, it’s a completely different round, and I sold my .308 bolt.  I know I won’t get the accuracy out of an AR10 as a bolt, and I’m not sure I want to get into long range again - but nice to know I could.

I am really leaning  towards going fast, cheap, and light, for short to mid-range training.  So this is why I like the 2.23 Wylde AERO.

This is a long winded way of asking: which model should I go with?  Does a 16” M4E1 in 2.23 Wylde make sense as a second rifle?  This is why I wanted the LWRC - to try a piston system and mix things up.  Now I think the barrel is what’s important to learn and “mix thing up” with.  Is 223 Wylde a good future-proof barrel?  Or, because I already have a 5.56, is it stupid to have yet another AR15 at all, and should I go AR10 for more power at those shorter ranges, with the ability to swap optics and reach out with later if I want to?  Or will 223 in 18” give me a good 300 yard engagement?  Do people run around with red dots on their AR10s just blasting the courses?  What’s the 223 vs 308 ammo shortage consideration?

So short version: What AERO would you  guys grab if you already had a good Daniel 5.56?

Thanks
Link Posted: 5/6/2021 4:46:14 PM EDT
[#1]
A backup AR15 makes a lot of sense.  Yes, I'd go for the Aero M4E1 with a .223 Wylde barrel.  
Once you have your bases covered there, then look at getting an Aero .308.  

Ammo prices are sky high right now, they're even higher for heavier calibers.  
So getting into that platform at this point is gonna cost you even more money.  

Realistically, if most of your shooting is done at short-range targets, you're gonna get the most bang for your buck with .223/5.56 anyway.
Link Posted: 5/6/2021 5:09:24 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 5/6/2021 8:09:55 PM EDT
[#3]
Probably not the "best" choice for a true second AR... but damn man... the .308 AR's rock. Hefty firepower in a not so heavy package depending on how you build.

I have several Aero M5 build that will shoot MOA if you're looking for good precision performance without going broke. The Ballistic Advantage barrels have been good to me. Below are some of my builds.

Link Posted: 5/6/2021 8:13:13 PM EDT
[#4]
I'd grab the Areo AR10 308 since you already have a AR15 5.56mm. Both are great platforms and great calibers
Link Posted: 5/6/2021 10:23:58 PM EDT
[#5]
Are you looking for a factory rifle or one you build? How long are you willing to wait?
Link Posted: 5/7/2021 10:46:49 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quote..

"I am really leaning  towards going fast, cheap, and light, for short to mid-range training."

Most Large Frame AR's are anything but, "going fast, and light". You can build light ones, but that ain't cheap.

A .223 Wylde fills your quoted needs quite well.

If you wanted... install a better quality barrel, one known to be precision oriented.



View Quote


Came here to say the same thing.

One note about the Wylde chamber:  it offers a theoretical accuracy advantage, but only theoretical, and only with match ammo.

Many companies are cutting Wylde chambers on otherwise rack grade barrels.  The Wylde chamber is "tighter" in the throat to reduce bullet yaw or upset as it jumps to the rifling, while still being able to handle 5.56 ammo.   But, if the bore and rifling are just rack grade, you may see no accuracy improvement over 5.56, even with match ammo.

IMO Wylde chambers are a very good thing on a stainless match barrel, shooting high quality match ammo..  They are tits on a boar hog otherwise - a marketing gimmick.  And, a Wylde chamber is not going to make 5.56 M193 or M855 ammo shoot more accurately.

OP: Get a rifle with a stainless true match grade barrel and Wylde chamber and shoot match ammo if more accuracy is the goal.  Or, add such a barrel to the existing rifle.

Edit:  a review of the specs on the rifle OP is considering indicates that the barrel is 1:8 twist stainless with Wylde chamber.  That may or may not be match quality.  That will depend on the straightness of bore and precision of the rifling.
Link Posted: 5/7/2021 11:06:14 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Came here to say the same thing.

One note about the Wylde chamber:  it offers a theoretical accuracy advantage, but only theoretical, and only with match ammo.

Many companies are cutting Wylde chambers on otherwise rack grade barrels.  The Wylde chamber is "tighter" in the throat to reduce bullet yaw or upset as it jumps to the rifling, while still being able to handle 5.56 ammo.   But, if the bore and rifling are just rack grade, you may see no accuracy improvement over 5.56, even with match ammo.

IMO Wylde chambers are a very good thing on a stainless match barrel, shooting high quality match ammo..  They are tits on a boar hog otherwise - a marketing gimmick.
View Quote

Achieves has scrubbed the OP, so I won't attribute this to them:

Posted By: Bill Wylde
Date: Thursday, 13 November 2003, at 8:46 a.m.

"In Response To: Re: .223 Wylde

The case dimensions of the Wylde reamer are that of one of the NATO prints. Not a thing tight about it. As I recall, there were two NATO prints in use. I don't recall the print number used, but do have it in old records somewhere.

Throating was about the only change. The decision was made to make the freebore diameter .2240" as a good bullet seal. That done, excess freebore made little difference to accuracy. One of the reasons the magazine length 69's shot so well in the chamber. It so happened that the 80 grain Sierra seated to the lands was about ideal at .2470" OAL. Simple luck.....All of it.

The initial reamer (designed in 1984) was mainly geared toward Canadian 5.56 ball, as I was experimenting with their issue ball for competitive purposes. This operation was slow in getting off the ground, and really didn't start happening until about 1990. The use of 5.56 NATO ball in Canada was a short lived affair. Handloads were allowed in about 1994.

Just prior to this time the AR's were gaining great strength in the U.S. The military finally got involved. The rest is history.

You might ask how the the 62 grain 5.56 ball worked for Canadian LR prone shooting to 1,000 yds? It was supersonic in barrels of 28", and longer. It also was very competitive with the 147 grain 7.62 ball in use there at the time. The wind drift differential at long range (7.62/5.56) was about 15% in favor of the 7.62.

Those days were very interesting."

Link Posted: 5/8/2021 11:58:33 AM EDT
[#8]
OP - I think your end use of the rifle will ultimately dictate your choice here.  I own AR10 rifles in both .308 and 6.5CM, as well as several AR15's.  The AR10's are primarily shot off a bipod from the bench, or prone/sitting.  They wear relatively high power scopes and I do nearly all of my shooting between 1-600 yards.  They are not what I would consider "run and gun" rifles.  And even if I were to swap out the scope for a red dot, the weight and recoil of the rifles do not make them well suited for multiple offhand shots at close range.  (Not saying it can't be done, I've seen people more talented than me do it, but it is definitely more challenging).  Plus, as other have pointed out, .308 ammo is pricier.  But if you think most of your shooting will be from a static position, off a bipod/bags and at distances of 300+ yards, I'd go for the .308.  Ballistics are better, it's a harder hitting round (obviously) and it's something different than what you already have.

However, if most of your shooting will be at 200 yards and in, offhand, and speed/follow up shots are important to you, I'd definitely get another AR15.  In fact, my recommendation would be to go with a shorter barrel (14.5" with a pinned muzzle brake/flash hider) or 10.5-12.5 if you go with a pistol brace/or SBR it.  The gun will be light, fast, maneuverable and a ton of fun to shoot.  And at 200 yards and in the ballistics out of even a 10.5" barrel are fine.  If you're just punching paper/shooting steel, you can take this gun out to 400 yards - assuming you posses the skill and eyesight needed.

As for brands, you have a ton of choices, depending on your budget.  Aeroprecision offer a good value.  I've personally always liked LaRue UU kits with a LaRue (or Aeroprecision) receiver.  They are reasonably priced, reliable and in my experience offer very good accuracy.  Also recently purchased a Daniel Defense 10.3" upper that I put on an Aeroprecision lower I put together myself.  Have a red dot and 3x magnifier and am really loving this set up.  But the truth is you have a ton of decent alternatives depending on your budget from PSA on the low end (you're going to sacrifice some accuracy/build quality here) to KAC/LWRC/GAP, etc. on the high end.

Finally, with respect to 5.56 vs. wylde barrel - if you're really looking for the best accuracy possible I think your probably looking at a heavy stainless barrel with a 1/7 or 1/7.7 twist from WOA/Compass Lake or some other top barrel maker and then having a quality gunsmith put together an upper for you.  Will probably be a wylde chamber, and of course you will only be shooting handholds or premium match ammo.
Link Posted: 5/8/2021 12:51:06 PM EDT
[#9]
No barrel, no matter how well made, can overcome the FMJ surplus ammo problem. Unless you think a 2.5-3.0 moa group is worth paying double for your barrel to avoid a 3.5-4.0 moa group.

Bone stock chrome lined barrels will flirt with 1 moa when fed premium ammunition. Premium barrels will shoot under moa with it. I started shooting NRA/DCM high power in 1983. I had a good quantity of M80 ball and practiced a lot. I was frustrated with my performance getting bad calls and bad shots even when everything felt perfect. By 1986 I was shooting cleans and high 90's on a regular basis. The difference was 168 grain Sierra MatchKings reloaded in my old brass.

I went from shooting 450's to shooting my personal best in 1989 of 489. Ammunition quality is the single best (and most expensive) upgrade anyone can make. Reloading is a necessity unless you are wealthy. Match ammo, assembled at home, is cheaper than FMJ's purchased in the store even in normal times. These are not normal times.
Link Posted: 5/8/2021 1:05:40 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
I was a hairs breath away from forking over $2400 for an LWRC IC SPR.  Then I started picking up on reviews that said it’s really not as accurate as the price tag suggests.  I also am moving to a free state so I figured I’d wait.

Like a lot of people, I am really appreciating the value and build quality of Aero.  So now I’m just trying to hone in on what I should get to balance out what I already have.

I have a DDM4V7 - it’s 16”, 5.56.  I’m using a 1-4x Leupold and offsets on it.  I’m looking for my next rifle to be mid-length, to train and run urban courses with a simple red dot.  That’s why I think the AERO Precision M4E1 16” is a good, affordable move for rifle #2.  But the other argument would be to go 18”.

I only recently learned about 2.23 Wylde barrels, and I like the idea of improved accuracy with the ability to use my 5.56 ammo.  Considering I already have a 5.56, and the ammo, I’m thinking this is a good way to go.

The other option would be an AERO M5E1 18” .308,  CMV - just because I’ve heard it’s a great AR10 for the price, it’s a completely different round, and I sold my .308 bolt.  I know I won’t get the accuracy out of an AR10 as a bolt, and I’m not sure I want to get into long range again - but nice to know I could.

I am really leaning  towards going fast, cheap, and light, for short to mid-range training.  So this is why I like the 2.23 Wylde AERO.

This is a long winded way of asking: which model should I go with?  Does a 16” M4E1 in 2.23 Wylde make sense as a second rifle?  This is why I wanted the LWRC - to try a piston system and mix things up.  Now I think the barrel is what’s important to learn and “mix thing up” with.  Is 223 Wylde a good future-proof barrel?  Or, because I already have a 5.56, is it stupid to have yet another AR15 at all, and should I go AR10 for more power at those shorter ranges, with the ability to swap optics and reach out with later if I want to?  Or will 223 in 18” give me a good 300 yard engagement?  Do people run around with red dots on their AR10s just blasting the courses?  What’s the 223 vs 308 ammo shortage consideration?

So short version: What AERO would you  guys grab if you already had a good Daniel 5.56?

Thanks
View Quote


I would either get a shorter AR15 like a 10.5-12.5 pistol or get the 308. You can always find some hunting Ammo for 308 and with the right optic and Ammo you can get out to 800-1000. A 18in 5.56/223 is great too. I have an 18in Noveske and 400yds in 3 gun is easy. With the 18in you can probably get out to 600/700 with the right Ammo and optic.
Link Posted: 5/9/2021 2:20:50 AM EDT
[#11]
Scrubbed the OP?

Thanks - lots of good input.  I was mistaken in terms of thinking I could just order up an Aero M5E1.  I saw them on Xtreme and thought that the buy button meant in stock.  It doesn’t.  In the meantime I saw some very good reviews on the PWS MK116 MOD 2-M RIFLE .223 WYLDE.  And despite the great info here, I do like the dual purpose of the barrel.   There’s  one MOD 2 vendor out there right now that I can grab.  Frankly a lot of this is coming from political fomo, moving to a free state, and wanting a new experience.  My DDM4V7 needs to have it’s CA-legal Juggernaut take down pin removed and have its sanity restored, but smithing is o hold.

One of you guys asked me how long I’m willing to wait, and I guess my answer would be a question: how long should I wait?  When will AR and ammo stock start to normalize?  Is this a pandemic / materials shortage, or a demand problem?  I can wait 3 months - half a year, but not 3.5 years for an election.

I’ve never regretted buying and always regretted waiting, but I also feel like I don’t know enough.  I heard such great things about the Gucci LWRC Piston platform, then heard the accuracy isn’t what it should be.  I heard Asro is the very best and the prices are great but they’re nowhere to be seen.  I saw a sick Sage Dynamics review on the PWS, and now they’re starting to go.  I see one, and wonder if it will be here in the morning.

If it were all up to me, I would buy a 223 Wylde and a 308 right now, and worry about it all later.  But my move has been pricey and it’s a bit selfish.  But watching stuff go out of stock really stings.

What online vendors are you guys seeing good restocks with?

*edit:  this may be the rifle I finally run suppressed, so 10.5-11" might actually be wise.  Does the length of the suppressor make it legal 16"?
Link Posted: 5/9/2021 2:34:39 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
No barrel, no matter how well made, can overcome the FMJ surplus ammo problem. Unless you think a 2.5-3.0 moa group is worth paying double for your barrel to avoid a 3.5-4.0 moa group.

Bone stock chrome lined barrels will flirt with 1 moa when fed premium ammunition. Premium barrels will shoot under moa with it. I started shooting NRA/DCM high power in 1983. I had a good quantity of M80 ball and practiced a lot. I was frustrated with my performance getting bad calls and bad shots even when everything felt perfect. By 1986 I was shooting cleans and high 90's on a regular basis. The difference was 168 grain Sierra MatchKings reloaded in my old brass.

I went from shooting 450's to shooting my personal best in 1989 of 489. Ammunition quality is the single best (and most expensive) upgrade anyone can make. Reloading is a necessity unless you are wealthy. Match ammo, assembled at home, is cheaper than FMJ's purchased in the store even in normal times. These are not normal times.
View Quote


I’m sorely lacking knowledge of ammo.  I have 1000rds of federal I bought instead of TP at the start of this thing.  I always wanted to reload my own ammo, but I always thought that was mostly for long range guys.  Bench making your own 556 /223 sounds fun - I’d like to look into it.  Meanwhile - yeah you’re right ammo is the bottleneck.  

You’d think I would be more relaxed about buying or building a great rifle since I’m moving to TN, but I just don’t like the trend of shortages with all these critical goods - from semi conductors to flash hiders. Full rifles seem like an investment but I’m being a bit twitchy I know.

(Someone asked me I like factory rifles or building: I love factory setups (upper and lower mated at the factory) and upgrading internals and parts.  This is why I like Aero, and now PWS.  But I think they can all use triggers and bolts.)

I am really looking forward to training and hanging out with people who have been shooting since 1989 and know ballistics and what not to worry about.
Link Posted: 5/9/2021 2:44:05 AM EDT
[#13]
Yeah my DDM4V7 is 16 and I don’t love pin and weld, so maybe 18” is the way to go.  I saw James Yeager’s 18” Midwest 308 and that made sense.

Then again I would love a Noveske 13” Infidel or other SBR.

I guess I need 3 ARs in time, purchased with my Daniel 16” in mind.

Right now I’m just on the novelty of piston system / wylde barrel.

If I had a clearer picture of the next few months I would chill out.  If this PWS Mod 2 disappears I’ll either take it as a sign to slow down, or start selling my ass.
Link Posted: 5/9/2021 3:06:20 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Scrubbed the OP?

Thanks - lots of good input.  I was mistaken in terms of thinking I could just order up an Aero M5E1.  I saw them on Xtreme and thought that the buy button meant in stock.  It doesn’t.  In the meantime I saw some very good reviews on the PWS MK116 MOD 2-M RIFLE .223 WYLDE.  And despite the great info here, I do like the dual purpose of the barrel.   There’s  one MOD 2 vendor out there right now that I can grab.  Frankly a lot of this is coming from political fomo, moving to a free state, and wanting a new experience.  My DDM4V7 needs to have it’s CA-legal Juggernaut take down pin removed and have its sanity restored, but smithing is o hold.

One of you guys asked me how long I’m willing to wait, and I guess my answer would be a question: how long should I wait?  When will AR and ammo stock start to normalize?  Is this a pandemic / materials shortage, or a demand problem?  I can wait 3 months - half a year, but not 3.5 years for an election.

I’ve never regretted buying and always regretted waiting, but I also feel like I don’t know enough.  I heard such great things about the Gucci LWRC Piston platform, then heard the accuracy isn’t what it should be.  I heard Asro is the very best and the prices are great but they’re nowhere to be seen.  I saw a sick Sage Dynamics review on the PWS, and now they’re starting to go.  I see one, and wonder if it will be here in the morning.

If it were all up to me, I would buy a 223 Wylde and a 308 right now, and worry about it all later.  But my move has been pricey and it’s a bit selfish.  But watching stuff go out of stock really stings.

What online vendors are you guys seeing good restocks with?
View Quote


I think there’s some fundamental misunderstandings here as well as some confusion about what you’re actually wanting to do.

What is it about a .223 Wylde chambered barrel that you think is “dual purpose?”

Why are you considering a 9-10lb+ gun (16”-18” .308 AR) when your stated goals are light and fast with a max engagement range of 300y?  Why the focus on an 18” barreled 5.56/.223 gun for the same thing?
Link Posted: 5/9/2021 3:30:06 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I think there’s some fundamental misunderstandings here as well as some confusion about what you’re actually wanting to do.

What is it about a .223 Wylde chambered barrel that you think is “dual purpose?”

Why are you considering a 9-10lb+ gun (16”-18” .308 AR) when your stated goals are light and fast with a max engagement range of 300y?  Why the focus on an 18” barreled 5.56/.223 gun for the same thing?
View Quote




.223 Wylde barrel takes 556 and .223.  Thats not really dual purpose - just able oto use the ammo I already have.

The PWS for example is 6lbs or so, which should be good for felt recoil.

Im not focused on any length barrel yet - that's the question for this post:  whats a good second AR considering the DDM4V7 16" I already have.  Its about mixing it up - giving the second rifle a different use.

I could go shorter, and run suppressed, or longer, for accuracy - leaving out the 308.

Its also about what I can get.  Love Aero.  Love PWS.  Love Noveske.  Only seeing a PWS MK116.

Maybe this all means "wait"
Link Posted: 5/9/2021 8:43:28 AM EDT
[#16]
I'm just a newb that just finished my first build and I'm already looking at my second.  Have similar questions as op and in my case I've determined to make a recce type second build.

My first was mostly for home defense, 12.5" barrelled 223/556.  I'm in ct so the barrel needed to be 12"+ and I didn't want to p&w a shorter barrel.  Stripped aero lower and complete aero upper.

My next build will be a 16" higher quality upper setup on another stripped aero lower.  I will part source and assemble the upper myself.  My goal is similar to op - longer range accuracy without bumping up a ton in size and weight.  Everything I've read so far says 300 yd possible with a high quality 16" setup so I'll be saving up for the better parts.
Link Posted: 5/9/2021 10:08:47 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




.223 Wylde barrel takes 556 and .223.  Thats not really dual purpose - just able oto use the ammo I already have.

The PWS for example is 6lbs or so, which should be good for felt recoil.

Im not focused on any length barrel yet - that's the question for this post:  whats a good second AR considering the DDM4V7 16" I already have.  Its about mixing it up - giving the second rifle a different use.

I could go shorter, and run suppressed, or longer, for accuracy - leaving out the 308.

Its also about what I can get.  Love Aero.  Love PWS.  Love Noveske.  Only seeing a PWS MK116.

Maybe this all means "wait"
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


I think there’s some fundamental misunderstandings here as well as some confusion about what you’re actually wanting to do.

What is it about a .223 Wylde chambered barrel that you think is “dual purpose?”

Why are you considering a 9-10lb+ gun (16”-18” .308 AR) when your stated goals are light and fast with a max engagement range of 300y?  Why the focus on an 18” barreled 5.56/.223 gun for the same thing?




.223 Wylde barrel takes 556 and .223.  Thats not really dual purpose - just able oto use the ammo I already have.

The PWS for example is 6lbs or so, which should be good for felt recoil.

Im not focused on any length barrel yet - that's the question for this post:  whats a good second AR considering the DDM4V7 16" I already have.  Its about mixing it up - giving the second rifle a different use.

I could go shorter, and run suppressed, or longer, for accuracy - leaving out the 308.

Its also about what I can get.  Love Aero.  Love PWS.  Love Noveske.  Only seeing a PWS MK116.

Maybe this all means "wait"


Gotcha.  

Any modern AR from a reputable manufacturer will be able to shoot 5.56 and .223, so there’s no need to focus on only Wylde chambered stuff.  That should hopefully help you broaden your options a bit, especially in the current market.

As for barrel length, I’d be looking at something 12.5” or under for a 300 yard and in gun, doubly so if a suppressor is in the cards, that’s going to add a significant chunk of weight and length to the gun.  I certainly wouldn’t be looking at something longer than 16” unless I’m misunderstanding what your goals/needs are.
Link Posted: 5/9/2021 11:44:15 AM EDT
[#18]
As I said before, you need to decide what is your intended use for a second AR.  This decision will then dictate caliber, barrel length, your optic and even potentially how much you should spend.  And while we can help you select a gun that matches up well with your ultimate goals, only you can decide what those goals are.   It's a lot of fun having an AR that is capable of hitting steel out to 7-800 yards (and beyond).  And if you decide to go this route an AR10 in .308 or even 6.5CM would be the way to go.  Or you could get an AR15 with an 18" barrel and certainly be able to shoot out to 4-500.

On the other hand having a light, short-barreled AR with a red dot is perfect for "run and gun"/offhand, close in shooting between 0-100 yards.  Add a LPVO or a 3x magnifier and you can extend the range to 2-400 yards.  And again you will have a useful rifle that's a ton of fun to shoot.  

Both alternatives are equally valid choices - it really just depends on what kind of shooting you want to do and what ranges/distances you have access to.

Also, have owned a number of piston guns and would say the PWS is my favorite.  You can't go wrong with this choice, if you decide to go the piston route.  However, a piston will generally be slightly heavier than a DI of similar length, and I can't say I've noticed much of a difference in reliability between my piston guns and my DI guns.  Pistons do stay cleaner and are a good choice if you plan on running suppressed.

Finally, I wouldn't worry to much on "missing out".  Don't think a new AWB is in our immediate future.  So if you stay on top of what's available and are somewhat patient you should be able to eventually find the particular brand/model of gun you are looking for.  Also, think ammo prices will eventually start coming down (although we may be a year or more out).  As for what to get now, I'm seeing IMI xm193 starting to become available and this is a decent plinking round.  Match ammo is tougher - although your starting to see some 77gr. OTM become available.  As for reloading, yes you can save money and tailor your loads to your individual guns.  But now is a tough time to start, particularly given the availability of primers.
Link Posted: 5/9/2021 9:56:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Gotcha.  

Any modern AR from a reputable manufacturer will be able to shoot 5.56 and .223, so there’s no need to focus on only Wylde chambered stuff.  That should hopefully help you broaden your options a bit, especially in the current market.

As for barrel length, I’d be looking at something 12.5” or under for a 300 yard and in gun, doubly so if a suppressor is in the cards, that’s going to add a significant chunk of weight and length to the gun.  I certainly wouldn’t be looking at something longer than 16” unless I’m misunderstanding what your goals/needs are.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


I think there’s some fundamental misunderstandings here as well as some confusion about what you’re actually wanting to do.

What is it about a .223 Wylde chambered barrel that you think is “dual purpose?”

Why are you considering a 9-10lb+ gun (16”-18” .308 AR) when your stated goals are light and fast with a max engagement range of 300y?  Why the focus on an 18” barreled 5.56/.223 gun for the same thing?




.223 Wylde barrel takes 556 and .223.  Thats not really dual purpose - just able oto use the ammo I already have.

The PWS for example is 6lbs or so, which should be good for felt recoil.

Im not focused on any length barrel yet - that's the question for this post:  whats a good second AR considering the DDM4V7 16" I already have.  Its about mixing it up - giving the second rifle a different use.

I could go shorter, and run suppressed, or longer, for accuracy - leaving out the 308.

Its also about what I can get.  Love Aero.  Love PWS.  Love Noveske.  Only seeing a PWS MK116.

Maybe this all means "wait"


Gotcha.  

Any modern AR from a reputable manufacturer will be able to shoot 5.56 and .223, so there’s no need to focus on only Wylde chambered stuff.  That should hopefully help you broaden your options a bit, especially in the current market.

As for barrel length, I’d be looking at something 12.5” or under for a 300 yard and in gun, doubly so if a suppressor is in the cards, that’s going to add a significant chunk of weight and length to the gun.  I certainly wouldn’t be looking at something longer than 16” unless I’m misunderstanding what your goals/needs are.


No you’re not misunderstanding my goal.  The more time I spend ont he is there's the more I knew toward 12.5” or under barrel.

Does adding a suppressor that. Rings the rifle to 16” keep
It out of SBR tax stamp territory?  

This is also all about supply and fomo.  I want a PWS or Aero but Like India’s I’m only seeing 16” right now, and dearest.
Link Posted: 5/9/2021 10:13:51 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
As I said before, you need to decide what is your intended use for a second AR.  This decision will then dictate caliber, barrel length, your optic and even potentially how much you should spend.  And while we can help you select a gun that matches up well with your ultimate goals, only you can decide what those goals are.   It's a lot of fun having an AR that is capable of hitting steel out to 7-800 yards (and beyond).  And if you decide to go this route an AR10 in .308 or even 6.5CM would be the way to go.  Or you could get an AR15 with an 18" barrel and certainly be able to shoot out to 4-500.

On the other hand having a light, short-barreled AR with a red dot is perfect for "run and gun"/offhand, close in shooting between 0-100 yards.  Add a LPVO or a 3x magnifier and you can extend the range to 2-400 yards.  And again you will have a useful rifle that's a ton of fun to shoot.  

Both alternatives are equally valid choices - it really just depends on what kind of shooting you want to do and what ranges/distances you have access to.

Also, have owned a number of piston guns and would say the PWS is my favorite.  You can't go wrong with this choice, if you decide to go the piston route.  However, a piston will generally be slightly heavier than a DI of similar length, and I can't say I've noticed much of a difference in reliability between my piston guns and my DI guns.  Pistons do stay cleaner and are a good choice if you plan on running suppressed.

Finally, I wouldn't worry to much on "missing out".  Don't think a new AWB is in our immediate future.  So if you stay on top of what's available and are somewhat patient you should be able to eventually find the particular brand/model of gun you are looking for.  Also, think ammo prices will eventually start coming down (although we may be a year or more out).  As for what to get now, I'm seeing IMI xm193 starting to become available and this is a decent plinking round.  Match ammo is tougher - although your starting to see some 77gr. OTM become available.  As for reloading, yes you can save money and tailor your loads to your individual guns.  But now is a tough time to start, particularly given the availability of primers.
View Quote


Intended use really now depends on what I can expect to do with my current DDM4V7 distance / accuracy wise.  It’s 16” and has a good 1-4x Leupold.  For some train it seems very log with the UBR stock.   I feel I could up that scope power to 8x or 10x with a vortex and get out to 600+.  I’m not currently as interested in distance shooting as learning practical entanglement scenarios, mechanics, “run + gun”and a lot do what I’m seeing is actually -25yrd scenarios.  So going shorter barrel with a RDS and 3x magnifier, and earmarking a suppressor for exactly the scenario you’re describing sounds right.

I have never had a shorter rifle - does anything under 16 have to be pinned?  Is it worth it to pay tax in an SBR?  Does a suppressor being a 10 or 12.5 to legal “long gun” 16” length?

I am going to stay stubborn about Piston, and probably PWS too.  I understand the weight consideration but again I think with a basic Red Dot and light It should I still be fast and fun.

I appreciate what you’re saying about being patient.  If I’m in TN and ordering FFL or going local, what’s your recommendation for vendors?  Rainier is my current go to, and they had PWSs for quite a while.  I’ll sign up for restocks
On PWS 114s, 112s everywhere I can think of and see what happens.

Seems now like getting a second 16” Isn’t really taking advantage of my move to a free state where I can go short, suppressed, and high cap.

Then I’ll come back Tor he AR10 question.  Aero seems like a great way to keep cost down there and just go balls out 18-20”.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 5/9/2021 10:36:55 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I’m sorely lacking knowledge of ammo.  I have 1000rds of federal I bought instead of TP at the start of this thing.  I always wanted to reload my own ammo, but I always thought that was mostly for long range guys.  Bench making your own 556 /223 sounds fun - I’d like to look into it.  Meanwhile - yeah you’re right ammo is the bottleneck.  

You’d think I would be more relaxed about buying or building a great rifle since I’m moving to TN, but I just don’t like the trend of shortages with all these critical goods - from semi conductors to flash hiders. Full rifles seem like an investment but I’m being a bit twitchy I know.

(Someone asked me I like factory rifles or building: I love factory setups (upper and lower mated at the factory) and upgrading internals and parts.  This is why I like Aero, and now PWS.  But I think they can all use triggers and bolts.)

I am really looking forward to training and hanging out with people who have been shooting since 1989 and know ballistics and what not to worry about.
View Quote


What "Federal" did you buy 1,000 rounds of?  If that is bulk 5.56 55gr or 62gr, that will be 2-1/2 to 3 MOA from even the best match barrels,  just as with rack grade barrels, as has been pointed out.

And, handloading is NOT just for long range.  Try a Berger 52 grain flat base Target bullet in Lapua cases, with Federal Gold Metal Match primers and a carefully worked up charge of H4895, LT-32, or IMR 8208 XBR.  This combination is capable of producing sub 1/2 MOA  groups at 100 and 200 yards from bench if the rifle and shooter skills are up to the task.  That bullet is specifically designed for 100-200 yard benchrest.

Try loading Barnes TSX or TTSX bullets in reused LC stamped 5.56 brass for outstanding hunting and personal defense,

Most reloading is not for long range shooting, although it can be.
Link Posted: 5/9/2021 10:38:51 PM EDT
[#22]
I have an Aero and Larue in 7.62 that both shoot lights out. Good hits on steel at 800 with boring regularity. However, if you have to buy ammo or reload for them right now will be expensive.  If you only have one 5.56 AR I'd get a backup 5.56 first.

800 yard target.

Attachment Attached File


Larue

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 5/9/2021 11:48:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Intended use really now depends on what I can expect to do with my current DDM4V7 distance / accuracy wise.  It’s 16” and has a good 1-4x Leupold.  For some train it seems very log with the UBR stock.   I feel I could up that scope power to 8x or 10x with a vortex and get out to 600+.  I’m not currently as interested in distance shooting as learning practical entanglement scenarios, mechanics, “run + gun”and a lot do what I’m seeing is actually -25yrd scenarios.  So going shorter barrel with a RDS and 3x magnifier, and earmarking a suppressor for exactly the scenario you’re describing sounds right.

I have never had a shorter rifle - does anything under 16 have to be pinned?  Is it worth it to pay tax in an SBR?  Does a suppressor being a 10 or 12.5 to legal “long gun” 16” length?



Then I’ll come back Tor he AR10 question.  Aero seems like a great way to keep cost down there and just go balls out 18-20”.

Thanks.
View Quote


It may take some trial and error with quailty ammo, but 600 yards with a decent optic should be doable with what you have, at least on man size targets. Just keep in mind a chrome lined barrel wasn't made specifically for accuracy (not that they can't be accurate)

In order for a barrel/suppressor to circumvent the 16" rule the suppressor needs to be permanently attatched/welded to bring the overall length to 16 inches. Its not something I would personally consider doing. SBRs are the bees knees but braces have came a long way and there are some nice options

For me, the 6.5 Grendel offers all the extra power needed without the disadvantages of the heavier, bulkier AR10 frame. Of course its a personal preference, but it may be worth your time to look into
Link Posted: 5/10/2021 12:29:22 AM EDT
[#24]
So let’s say I get the 11.85" PRIMARY WEAPONS SYSTEMS .223 WYLDE MK1 MOD 2 PISTOL. Can I use the brace while I wait for my SBR tax stamp to come in, and then convert that to a regular buttstock?  While I don’t have experience with braces, I really don’t care for them.  Maybe in the time I use it I’ll change my mind.

11.85 seems like a good length for my first suppressed rifle, and takes in to account a lot of the above conversation about purpose.  I can throw a better barrel on my DDM4V7 (though Daniel barrels are supposed to be great) learn to reach out better, and see if I even get the long range AR10 a 6.5 / Grendel bug.

What do you guys think of this particular pistol, length, and plan considering all the above?  How do you properly convert a pistol / brace platform to SBR?
Link Posted: 5/10/2021 12:31:50 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So let’s say I get the 11.85" PRIMARY WEAPONS SYSTEMS .223 WYLDE MK1 MOD 2 PISTOL.  I do not like braces.  I just don’t.  But that’s aesthetics - I’m sure there are good ones.  Can I use the brace while I wait for my SBR tax stamp to come in, and then convert that to a regular buttstock?  That seems like a good length for my first suppressed rifle, and takes in to account a lot of the above conversation about purpose.  I can then throw a better barrel into the he DDM4V7 and learn to reach out better, and see if I even get the long range AR10 a 6.5 / Grendel bug.

What do you guys think of this particular pistol, length, and plan considering all the above?  How do you properly convert a pistol brace platform to SBR?
View Quote


Yep, that’s fine.  All it takes is submitting a Form 1 to SBR the gun and swapping out the brace for a buttstock once approved.
Link Posted: 5/10/2021 12:37:18 AM EDT
[#26]
What about the brake?  Does it have to be pinned if it’s a pistol?

MK111 Muzzle Device: PWS Triad 556

Does that mean “Pinned Welded Stuck / Suck”?

Link Posted: 5/10/2021 1:03:58 AM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What about the brake?  Does it have to be likened if it’s a pistol?

MK111 Muzzle Device: PWS Triad 556

Does that mean “Pinned Welded Stuck / Suck”?

View Quote


No, pistols don’t require pinned muzzle devices (unless you’re in one of those states with the weird “no flash hider” laws).
Link Posted: 5/10/2021 1:25:20 AM EDT
[#28]
I have a BA Hanson/Arro Precision stainless 16” barrel with a .223 Wylde chamber.  

It shoots bulk ammo like pretty much every other barrel on a rifle I own.  It does show more promise with better quality handloads, and I’ll be trying out loads with various flavors of SMK bullets to see what it can do.

Bottom line, IMO if you’re just shooting bulk ammo the Wylde chamber isn’t going to be of much difference accuracy wise.

Link Posted: 5/10/2021 4:30:50 PM EDT
[#29]
I’m sold on 223 Wylde and PWS.

This is happening like today.

MK111, or MK116?

I have the stock ready to go for the SBR.  The tax stamp ain’t a big deal, and I love the idea of running suppressed when I’m ready.  Cost of 11” is same as 16”.  When I think about pistol braces coming under political direction I feel this so the way to go.  And also, why have two 16”?

Unless I’m missing something, MK111 is the right choice foe this thread.

Final thoughts?

You guys have been all-pros.  Thank you.
Link Posted: 5/10/2021 9:38:55 PM EDT
[#30]
I love the PWS MK111. Ive wanted one for a while. Does it still come with the adjustable gas block?
If a 16" AR is your only rifle I would go SBR or AR10. The PWS is an awesome gun. I think a 300 blackout might be an option too.
I saw all this coming 18 months ago and bought pretty much everything I wanted. I also put together a nice loading setup, so I can crank out 9mm, 45, 556, 300 blackout, 308, and 50BMG. I knew I'd feel better having the resources than having the money with no resources to purchase. Be honest with yourself about what you are "preparing" for. In my opinion, the future is bleak. Do you think these Communists care what the people want? They stole an election right in front of us!
I think you have a nice 16" 556
A 10" 300blkout will allow you to shoot supers or subs, both of which are better suppressed than 556.
The 30 cal bullets can be used for 300blk and 308 if you get set up to load your own. The sense of peace I get from the equipment I've purchased in the last 2 years has given me immense gratification
I'd personally go with the PWS MK111 with plans for a suppressor.
I would then go for the AR 10 in 6.5 Creedmoor. if you get a 30 cal suppressor it will work on your 556, 300 blackout, and AR10.  Don't kid yourself. The world is headed in a very bad direction. Take this seriously.
I just built an Aero 8" 300 blackout. Went with a Seekins select adjustable gas block and a Griffin Paladin as a mount. With the suppressor its very balanced. All I do is flip a switch on the gas block to shoot 190 grain Sub-X loads. Ive got a Steiner PX4I. I absolutely love it.
Link Posted: 5/10/2021 10:31:06 PM EDT
[#31]
Attachment Attached File


I love .308. It is a great all purpose round.
Link Posted: 5/10/2021 10:39:30 PM EDT
[#32]
My PWS is 14.5" with a pinned muzzle brake to get it to 16" and avoid having to SBR it. However, don't think you can really go wrong with a 11.5" PWS, particularly since you've decided to go the piston route.   It's just a great choice, particularly if you think you might one day want to add a suppressor.  Get a pistol brace for now (they're really not that bad) and then do paperwork for SBR if you want to go that route.  The application process is a little bit of a PITA and wait times are not great.  I'm still waiting for two to come through and I filed in mid-November.  

As for the political situation, I do think pistol braces are on the Dems. hit list and may eventually be treated like stocks by the ATF.  However, my hope is that even if you have to register gun with ATF, guns that have pistol braces before rules are changed will be grandfathered to the extent that $200 fee will be waived.  Time will tell.

As far as ammo, I think things are getting slightly better at least as far as availability, but ammo is still far too pricey.  There are a couple of places you can buy IMI XM193 now for about .75/rd., which is about the best you're going to do.  This is not match ammo, but is reliable and is fine for plinking particularly if you need ammo now.  Doubt prices will ever come back down to .28-30 per round, but maybe we'll see .40-45/rd eventually.

Also, while I do agree with another poster that .300BO is the bees knees, particularly if you are shooting out of a short barrel or plan to shoot suppressed, given the current availability and price of ammo probably not the best option right now.
Link Posted: 5/12/2021 7:36:39 PM EDT
[#33]
I did go MK111 though I got the 223 Wylde / 556, not 300 Blackout.  I really need to do y homework on 300 and subsonic.  I don't even know if there is such a thing as a subsonic 223/556 round.

So anyway I puled the trigger on the PWS from Rainier, if anyone wants to know.  I had been going nuts looking for rifles, and didn't realize that "pistols" are still gettable -   for now.

My next rifle will be an AR10 in 308 or 6.5, and I'm sure Ill learn about 300.  It will almost certainly be a complete Aero, or built from the comments above.

*Edit:  Why do they cal the Mod 1 the MK111, and the Mod2 the MK1?
Link Posted: 5/12/2021 7:41:11 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
... It's just a great choice, particularly if you think you might one day want to add a suppressor.  Get a pistol brace for now (they're really not that bad) and then do paperwork for SBR if you want to go that route.  The application process is a little bit of a PITA and wait times are not great.  I'm still waiting for two to come through and I filed in mid-November...
View Quote


BTW - can you put a regular buttock on your pistol while you wait for the SBR stamp, as long as you don't "use" the (now) rifle, or is it automatically a legal issue once you modify?  Would a Gunsmith ask for the stamp, for example?
Link Posted: 5/12/2021 9:20:31 PM EDT
[#35]
Only just now learning of Wylde??

The Wylde is a compromise.

Shoot 556nato ammo in a 556(nato) cut chamber, shoot 223rem ammo in a 223rem(SAAMI) cut chamber, is the best way.

Shooting 223 in 556 chamber works, shooting both in a Wylde works, doing either is not ideal in terms of shooting a specified ammo via some other chamber cut.

In some form of battle situation where your team uses 556 chambers/ammo and your allies are using 223 chambers/ammo, I would rather pickup a Wylde and battle on vs perhaps being limited by a chamber. Although most barrels will work/live firing 556 in 223 chamber.

So, it's basically choose to match ammo to chamber, or select a compromise.

If you find the better accuracy studies firing 223rem in Wylde cut vs 556nato cut, please post the links to the data. Most general duty rifles & ammo have many other factors that throw off their precision/accuracy, more than swapping to Wylde and expecting better.


308 vs Wylde, in these times, I would choose the Wylde.
Link Posted: 5/12/2021 9:33:40 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




.223 Wylde barrel takes 556 and .223.  Thats not really dual purpose - just able oto use the ammo I already have.

View Quote

556nato cut takes 556 and .223

And not all reamer cuts are made equally the same. Some top makers of reamers will have tighter tolerances than others.
Maybe a Rem Match cut is better?

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/REAMER6.png
Link Posted: 5/12/2021 9:38:54 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


BTW - can you put a regular buttock on your pistol while you wait for the SBR stamp, as long as you don't "use" the (now) rifle, or is it automatically a legal issue once you modify?  Would a Gunsmith ask for the stamp, for example?
View Quote

Until it’s a done deal on the registration, you can’t put a stock on it.
Link Posted: 5/13/2021 12:02:07 PM EDT
[#38]
Not to belabor the point, but what happens if you order the SBR to FFL?  Do they have to hold it until you get your stamp, or do you have to store it as "awaiting repairs".

Also naming convention Q, I think MK1 is the pistol.  MK111 is the rifle.
Link Posted: 5/13/2021 1:26:33 PM EDT
[#39]
Its held until the stamp is received
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