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Page AR-15 » Rimfire and Pistol Calibers
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Posted: 11/24/2018 1:17:05 AM EDT
Toying with the idea of tossing together a 45acp upper receiver to go with my HK45C and since I'll be putting together an 80% pistol lower with a tailhook. Never bothered looking into the AR in 45 before and barely in 9mm. I've read the few threads I could find on here, and so I think my plans are solid, but wanted to see what y'all thought:



I'd like to be between the 9-11in range for the barrel both for handling and ballistics, but I would like to feed hollowpoints if possible. Running the MVB adapter because 1) it looks cool as heck, and 2) #HKallthethings. I have an HK pistol, seems right to match it with an "HK pistol." I'd like to run hollowpoints because while I'll have other guns for home defense, this may end up being a bit of a loaner gun, and I just on principal don't much care for guns that only run FMJ/Ball ammo.

Am I right in my parts selection for whenever I get to this project, or what do I need to swap out?
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 2:32:19 AM EDT
[#1]
I would strongly consider a DI 45 setup. Much softer shooting and more reliable.

Give Rudy a call @ Macon Armory and he'll setup you up!

That rail should play nice with a DI 45 since it has a short barrel nut.
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 3:06:36 AM EDT
[#2]
I think you have made good choices. I like the fact that you can use the USC mags, I just wish they made USC mags in 10mm. .

I am running a 45 acp upper with a KVP buffer and spring, KAW valley 8.5 barrel, a new frontier armory bolt with their side charging upper. I have lost track of all the rounds I have fired through it. Very accurate with little to no recoil and has run flawlessly    I use it on an MGI lower with a glock magwell, that I sbr'ed. I don't have a dedicated lower for it but I am going to build up and form 1 a lower for it.
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 10:56:21 AM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
I would strongly consider a DI 45 setup. ...  and more reliable.
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This sounds like DI fonboyism to me.  Which reliability issues do blowback ones have again?  My PSA blowback one (pretty much the cheapest one you can possible get) has been 100% reliable, even using crappy steel cased ammo and korean mags.
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 11:26:30 AM EDT
[#4]
another vote for macon armory DI    much better than blow back
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 12:06:06 PM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:

This sounds like DI fonboyism to me.  Which reliability issues do blowback ones have again?  My PSA blowback one (pretty much the cheapest one you can possible get) has been 100% reliable, even using crappy steel cased ammo and korean mags.
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nope no fanboyism. it's pretty simple physics If bolt velocity is high as is wear and tear on the components. The AR just doesn't have enough room to get proper bolt mass for a blowback 45. good enough to work? yup.  Ideal? nope
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 12:27:45 PM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:

nope no fanboyism. it's pretty simple physics If bolt velocity is high as is wear and tear on the components. The AR just doesn't have enough room to get proper bolt mass for a blowback 45. good enough to work? yup.  Ideal? nope
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So would you say step up the buffer weight then? The bolt is 15.3oz, KVP makes a 10.4oz buffer, so that'd put my reciprocating mass to 25.7oz with the ability to try out the full range of springco spring powers.

I wouldn't mind a Macon setup someday, but for this build I'm not worrying about making it perfect and optimal like I do with my defensive ar's. More than anything it'll be a fun gun, and it's already sitting at $800 which is a bit more than I was hoping for. An extra $100+ for just the upper and then still needing a few bits like the magwell adapter is just more than I'm able or willing to put into this.
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 2:11:26 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:

So would you say step up the buffer weight then? The bolt is 15.3oz, KVP makes a 10.4oz buffer, so that'd put my reciprocating mass to 25.7oz with the ability to try out the full range of springco spring powers.

I wouldn't mind a Macon setup someday, but for this build I'm not worrying about making it perfect and optimal like I do with my defensive ar's. More than anything it'll be a fun gun, and it's already sitting at $800 which is a bit more than I was hoping for. An extra $100+ for just the upper and then still needing a few bits like the magwell adapter is just more than I'm able or willing to put into this.
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In an Ideal blowback design bolt speed should be regulated to 4 m/s. So for 45 acp using 230gr ball this translates into a reciprocating mass of 36.8 oz's

However lets check a real world example. The Thompson machine gun had a bolt mass of 28.2oz for the M1 and the M1A1 29.1oz's respectively. Remember with all of this mass your going to feel it more both during recoil and returning to battery.
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 4:26:39 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:

In an Ideal blowback design bolt speed should be regulated to 4 m/s. So for 45 acp using 230gr ball this translates into a reciprocating mass of 36.8 oz's

However lets check a real world example. The Thompson machine gun had a bolt mass of 28.2oz for the M1 and the M1A1 29.1oz's respectively. Remember with all of this mass your going to feel it more both during recoil and returning to battery.
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So what about upping the spring pressure as well? It seems like you could compensate at least in part for the missing 11.1oz of weight with something like a Springco Orange or red to help slow it down.
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 4:49:54 PM EDT
[#9]
from what was explained to me spring pressure only delays the time in which the bolt begins to move but it has minimal influence on bolt velocity in comparison to weight.

Obviously there are plenty of blowback 45 uppers out there running fine. Just stating that DI is a more efficient way to go and rumored to be much softer shooting. I should be finishing up mine here in the near future(then i'll attempt a di 9mm ). I had a 9mm BB once and while it went bang everytime it was a choppy SOB.
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 4:53:49 PM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:
It seems like you could compensate at least in part for the missing 11.1oz of weight with something like a Springco Orange or red to help slow it down.
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Or as in his example gun, The Thompson, make the gun heavier.  11lb gun with the steel receiver and a 5lb 100 round drum.  Mine doesn't recoil at all.

As far as felt recoil, my blowback 45ACP AR jumped around a little bit shooting it with just a buffer tube.  Would not advise that.  But honestly, any 45acp pistol you have where the bore axis is 3" over the top of the grip will do that.  As soon as I put on a pistol brace (and eventually a shoulder stock), the recoil is a non issue.  It doesn't beat you up and the red dot doesn't bounce around while shooting.

Regarding "ideal" weight, look at a baby glock 36.  The entire gun weighs 29oz.  Slide is probably only half that.  Glock 21 slide weighs 16oz.  Those things aren't beating theirselves to death.  You can't just look at the weight of the reciprocating mass and declare a gun will be unreliable.
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 5:15:04 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:

Regarding "ideal" weight, look at a baby glock 36.  The entire gun weighs 29oz.  Slide is probably only half that.  Glock 21 slide weighs 16oz.  Those things aren't beating theirselves to death.  You can't just look at the weight of the reciprocating mass and declare a gun will be unreliable.
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apples and oranges comparison. Those are locked breached weapons. different animal all together.
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 6:40:59 PM EDT
[#12]
I'm pretty sure Macon Armory did a USC mag conversion too, but switched to their own magazine to get more bullets in it.  He also does a straight blowback, so I don't think he'd tell you they're junk, but the DI obviously has massive advantages to it.
Link Posted: 11/24/2018 9:12:48 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:
I'm pretty sure Macon Armory did a USC mag conversion too, but switched to their own magazine to get more bullets in it.  He also does a straight blowback, so I don't think he'd tell you they're junk, but the DI obviously has massive advantages to it.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm pretty sure Macon Armory did a USC mag conversion too, but switched to their own magazine to get more bullets in it.  He also does a straight blowback, so I don't think he'd tell you they're junk, but the DI obviously has massive advantages to it.
Oh I certainly understand it has advantages - but after dropping about $1100 on a rifle for a friend and being in the process of a $3k and change SBR/Suppressor build, I'm just not up for spending DI money on this project, if I ever even get to this.

Quoted:

Or as in his example gun, The Thompson, make the gun heavier.  11lb gun with the steel receiver and a 5lb 100 round drum.  Mine doesn't recoil at all.

As far as felt recoil, my blowback 45ACP AR jumped around a little bit shooting it with just a buffer tube.  Would not advise that.  But honestly, any 45acp pistol you have where the bore axis is 3" over the top of the grip will do that.  As soon as I put on a pistol brace (and eventually a shoulder stock), the recoil is a non issue.  It doesn't beat you up and the red dot doesn't bounce around while shooting.

Regarding "ideal" weight, look at a baby glock 36.  The entire gun weighs 29oz.  Slide is probably only half that.  Glock 21 slide weighs 16oz.  Those things aren't beating theirselves to death.  You can't just look at the weight of the reciprocating mass and declare a gun will be unreliable.
It'll have a tailhook on a PWS pistol tube. If it jumps around a bit we'll just consider it recoil control practice.
Link Posted: 11/25/2018 12:50:34 AM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 11/25/2018 12:53:18 AM EDT
[#15]
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