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Posted: 4/19/2021 8:25:17 PM EDT
I've been watching Colt SMG parts for a while on the EE and Gunbroker, hoping to do a clone of a 6450 that I sold years ago (they cost too much now to have a real one). I quickly learned that the parts are plenty pricey too, then I spotted the perfect starter in the EE and eventually had the funds to scoop it up:
 Attached FileI know it looks awful, but you have to look past all the tacticool stuff. It has a legit Colt upper, well, most of it (minus the Noveske charging handle, ugh). I can work with this. So I went to dismantling it, separating parts I can use and parts that I need to ditch. Here is all the useful stuff I got from the little carbine:  Attached FileAnd here is all the crap I had to take off (ewww). Thankfully I have a friend that wants most of this stuff. Anywhoo, I don't know what kind of buffer spring it is, so I figure I'm better off going with a new one. The buffer is standard carbine; weighed in at just over three ounces, so that's gotta go too. I've since ordered a proper 5.4 oz 9mm carbine buffer and a new spring.  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/19/2021 8:33:50 PM EDT
[#1]
Cool, are you going with a full port door or the partial with the smoke deflector? I have a early one 3400 serial number range that has the full port door.
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Posted: 4/19/2021 8:34:14 PM EDT
[#2]
Here are some parts I ordered preemptively in anticipation for the carbine's arrival. Included is a Brownells 2 position buffer tube, Brownells CAR stock, AR15 Sport repro lock ring, a Spikes 9mm buffer spacer, some stainless hammer and trigger pins, and a set of knock-off six hole hand guards that I already had, as well as an A2 grip, buffer end plate, and a standard trigger guard.
 Attached FileI was really excited to see the legit parts on the upper. Notice the lack of a gas tube hole in the front of the receiver, the 50M sight aperture, and the ball detent for the sight wheel (the way Colt set them up).  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/19/2021 8:36:02 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cool, are you going with a full port door or the partial with the smoke deflector? I have a early one 3400 serial number range that has the full port door. 
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Posted: 4/19/2021 8:42:23 PM EDT
[#4]
The lower seems pretty cool too. It is a CMMG Mk 9, I diddn't know about these but they are set up for Colt magazines, and they don't have any fire safe marks on the right side. I still have five mags left over from the Colt, so this will work out perfect.
Gonna have to do something about the logo though, I can't go around with an M4 on my 80's Colt clone.  Attached FileI just finished gooping up the logo with some JB weld. I'll let this cure overnight and bake it in the oven to shrink it before I sand it down. Then a coat of grayish black flat should be just what the doctor ordered!  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/19/2021 8:46:03 PM EDT
[#5]
I'm on vacation time this week so hopefully I'll have this wrapped up and shooting by the weekend. I post pics as I make more progress.
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Posted: 4/20/2021 12:17:15 AM EDT
[#6]
The Colt SMG /6450 is the unsung AR shorty,
while the CAR-15's and XM177's get all the glory, from Vietnam pics. That said, there are lots of Colt SMG's in Miami Vice from the 80's Great effort, hope it turns out well. |
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Posted: 4/20/2021 2:45:45 AM EDT
[#7]
That looks like a fun project! I never thought about JB weld for filling unwanted receiver fodder. Will it withstand the 300 degrees required if using Norrels?
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Posted: 4/20/2021 5:42:25 AM EDT
[#8]
I got big into picking up Colt 9mm stuff when I saw it and ended up with a rather large pile of it when it was all said and done. I’ve sold most of it off now other than a DOE clone and one of the weird Colt tigers stripe ones I built up.
Who am I kidding though, I would still pick up 9mm stuff if I saw it for a decent price. 
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Posted: 4/20/2021 1:42:37 PM EDT
[#9]
Hey, thanks for the encouragement
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Posted: 4/20/2021 1:46:03 PM EDT
[#10]
"That looks like a fun project! I never thought about JB weld for filling unwanted receiver fodder. Will it withstand the 300 degrees required if using Norrels?"
It works out pretty well. The key part with the heat is to bake the JB for an hour at 300 deg F before sanding it. It will undergo some shrinkage, something you want out of the way before sanding and applying the moly resin (ask me how i know ). |
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Posted: 4/20/2021 1:54:47 PM EDT
[#11]
This brings up another point about the receiver markings; earlier I received an IM from a concerned fellow enthusiast about obscuring factory marks:
DO NOT remove the makers markings, by this I mean the ones there to satisfy the requirements of federal law; this includes the maker as well as the city, state, and country of orgin:  Attached FileAlso left alone is the model, caliber markings, and of course the serial number. The only thing I am removing is the company logo. We used to have to do this kind of stuff all the time to try and make our clones a bit more retro, along with some re-profile work. I definitely appreciate the message of concern though, it's great how the community looks out for each other! |
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Posted: 4/20/2021 10:08:47 PM EDT
[#12]
Post up pictures of the lower receiver when it is finished. Love to see the outcome of the JB Weld treatment.
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Posted: 4/24/2021 11:46:47 AM EDT
[#13]
Well I finally got back to work on this one. I started by sanding with 120 grit to knock down the majority of it:
 Attached FileThen 220 grit to smooth it out:  Attached FileRight here is where I should have decided to add a skim coat to the logo. You can also see two air bubbles in the JB weld; one on the left side and one on the right side. A light coat, baking in the oven, and some light sanding with 220 would have taken care of this... But my impatience got the best of me. I went ahead and sprayed it:  Attached FileNot too bad overall though. I you look really closely you can still see some of the logo, but it's still and improvement. For the most part it looks okay  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/24/2021 12:02:26 PM EDT
[#14]
The parts I ordered also came in yesterday (whoohoo). And this is a good opportunity to talk about the 9mm carbine.
Buffer weight is essential. The buffer must be heavier than a regular carbine buffer. The one that was in the carbine when I got it was a 3oz; not good:  Attached FileThe blowback system of the 9mm setup requires a heavier mass to keep things closed a bit longer, and to slow the cyclic rate. Here is a proper 9mm buffer:  Attached File5.5 ounces would be better, but this CMMG made one should do the trick. Another important part of the 9mm system is the spring spacer. It reduces the travel of the bolt, which helps lessen the load on the bolt catch as well as keeping the fire control group covered by the bolt body (keeping spent casings out of the lower receiver). Here is a proper setup for the carbine, spacer is made by Spikes Tactical (it is the only one I found that resembles the original style):  Attached FileAnd finally come the hammer and trigger pins. Stainless pins are a good idea, they hold up well to the hammer continually getting struck by the extra mass of the bolt/buffer combo. |
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Posted: 4/24/2021 1:33:50 PM EDT
[#15]
So have you test fired it yet?
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Posted: 4/24/2021 2:20:56 PM EDT
[#16]
You can also use quarters as spacers for your over travel. Once you find that measure the quarters and cut a 7/8" wooden dowel rod to replace the quarters.
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Posted: 4/24/2021 4:04:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So have you test fired it yet? Not yet. I just finished assembly, and I hope to have a chance to go to the range tomorrow. I think it'll run good. The old colt I had was a bit of a basket case when I got it. I had to do a lot of the same things to it before it ran properly. I'll get some good pics of the completed carbine soon. |
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Posted: 4/24/2021 4:05:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can also use quarters as spacers for your over travel. Once you find that measure the quarters and cut a 7/8" wooden dowel rod to replace the quarters. I heard about this trick from Mr. Bartocci. I believe he said about $1.50 ought to do it
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Posted: 4/24/2021 5:02:41 PM EDT
[#19]
Got some pics of the finished carbine:
 Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 4/24/2021 8:02:01 PM EDT
[#20]
That looks great! A big improvement over the way it was. Ok, only thing I would change is the grip, needs an A1 style.
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Posted: 4/24/2021 8:11:59 PM EDT
[#21]
Man that looks great!
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Posted: 4/24/2021 10:08:03 PM EDT
[#22]
I'm curious. I'm assuming the barrel you used is a factory Colt 9mm? If so did it have a thick shim/washer between the barrel nut and shoulder on the barrel that tightens against the upper receiver?
I just built a 9mm pistol out of a Colt smg parts kit I got off gunbroker last year and the barrel nut came loose at the range today. When I took the barrel off to check for damage I found the barrel itself has a very thin shoulder with a smaller outer diameter than you would see on a standard barrel extension and there is a thick shim/washer between that and the barrel nut to make it so everything tightens up. I asked about this over in the rimfire AR section (not sure if that's the right place to have asked) but maybe you or someone who knows about the Colt 9mm smg can enlighten me. My upper is 100% original Colt parts and looks like it left the factory and spent many years on a rack somewhere. Sorry to come into your thread asking questions. I just figured this may be a place people who know about the 9mm Colt smg and carbines might be right now. Your build looks awesome by the way. I love my little Colt 9mm smg build. Shoots great. Since it has the 10.3 inch barrel I used a stripped lower and built it as a pistol. Mine has the later black finish and an A1 upper on an A2 lower. The original lower was cut into 3 pieces but the mag adaptor was undamaged so I reused it. I used a spacer in the buffer tube just like you to save my bolt stop and Im running the no ramped bolt with a Rock River "DPMS" style trigger group. So far nothing is battered. I left the beat up black finish on mine and used as many of the original Colt parts I could to keep it looking legit. "Aged" my lower to match the upper too. In any case if anyone has any info about the Colt 9mm smg barrel with a thick washer please let me know. I'm just going to reassemble it and keep shooting but I'm super curious why the barrel is made this way. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 12:05:11 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That looks great! A big improvement over the way it was. Ok, only thing I would change is the grip, needs an A1 style. Why the A1 grip? The 9mm SMG was an 80s baby, AKA A2 era. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 1:24:33 AM EDT
[#24]
I just prefer the looks and feel of them over the A2.
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Posted: 4/25/2021 9:01:17 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just prefer the looks and feel of them over the A2. +1 |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 10:59:10 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm curious. I'm assuming the barrel you used is a factory Colt 9mm? If so did it have a thick shim/washer between the barrel nut and shoulder on the barrel that tightens against the upper receiver? I just built a 9mm pistol out of a Colt smg parts kit I got off gunbroker last year and the barrel nut came loose at the range today. When I took the barrel off to check for damage I found the barrel itself has a very thin shoulder with a smaller outer diameter than you would see on a standard barrel extension and there is a thick shim/washer between that and the barrel nut to make it so everything tightens up. I asked about this over in the rimfire AR section (not sure if that's the right place to have asked) but maybe you or someone who knows about the Colt 9mm smg can enlighten me. My upper is 100% original Colt parts and looks like it left the factory and spent many years on a rack somewhere. Sorry to come into your thread asking questions. I just figured this may be a place people who know about the 9mm Colt smg and carbines might be right now. Your build looks awesome by the way. I love my little Colt 9mm smg build. Shoots great. Since it has the 10.3 inch barrel I used a stripped lower and built it as a pistol. Mine has the later black finish and an A1 upper on an A2 lower. The original lower was cut into 3 pieces but the mag adaptor was undamaged so I reused it. I used a spacer in the buffer tube just like you to save my bolt stop and Im running the no ramped bolt with a Rock River "DPMS" style trigger group. So far nothing is battered. I left the beat up black finish on mine and used as many of the original Colt parts I could to keep it looking legit. "Aged" my lower to match the upper too. In any case if anyone has any info about the Colt 9mm smg barrel with a thick washer please let me know. I'm just going to reassemble it and keep shooting but I'm super curious why the barrel is made this way. My barrel has the same short shoulder/washer combo. I don't know for sure, but I believe this is to be used as a crush washer or a crush sleeve. Since the barrel nut does not have the advantage of a gas tube acting as a capture feature (kinda like lock wire, or a cotter pin), I think the idea was to use compression of the shim/washer as the capture feature. But this is just my guess, anybody else with more info please chime in! Oh, and I've also had a barrel nut come loose on a Colt 9mm carbine. All the sudden while shooting the handguards started rotating about the barrel, ugh. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 11:01:16 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That looks great! A big improvement over the way it was. Ok, only thing I would change is the grip, needs an A1 style. It's the whole idea of keeping the aesthetic of the original Colt 9mm carbine. You must embrace the 80's awesomeness 
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Posted: 4/25/2021 11:06:28 AM EDT
[#28]
And thanks a lot for the compliments y'all!
Now I hope it functions as it should. One thing that concerns me is the ejector; I removed it to do the MolyResin, hopefully it went back where it needs to be. The interface with the receiver is a bit different than the Colt magwell adapter, although the ejector itself is the same shape/design. I'll post a range report when I shoot it. |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 7:56:03 PM EDT
[#29]
the 9mm's are known for the barrel nuts coming lose because they don't have the gas tube to keep them from rotating loose you just have to use lock tight on the barrel nut and torque them
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Posted: 4/26/2021 12:20:48 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just prefer the looks and feel of them over the A2. I definitely agree when it comes to looks and feel. |
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Posted: 4/27/2021 7:50:32 AM EDT
[#31]
Well played!! I have nothing but love for MagPul, but there is something to be said about the beauty of the original look... Plus, the 1980s were kick-@ss!!
Was issued a Colt SMG back in the 90s and those plastic gas deflectors are a must... Even in semi mode. At the academy, I had to qualify on one without the gas deflector, which was very distracting, plus some of the powder residue would also hit you in the faced... only had it for 2 years before going to the HK MP5. I preferred the Colt SMG, but you had to be careful not to drop the magazines during timed reloads!! I like the Colt SMG so much that I bought a then “restricted” Colt AR-15 9mm carbine. In the Retro World, these Colt and clone 9mm carbines don’t get much love since they sit on the line between the Retro crowd and the A2 crowd... IMHO, the A2s are now Retro since they’re moving into their 40th year of service in the next 2 years since they were first issue to the US Military around 1983. Btw, keep it classy and keep the A2 grip on it!! |
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Posted: 4/27/2021 8:59:31 AM EDT
[#32]
WOW! What an improvement.
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Posted: 4/27/2021 9:22:02 AM EDT
[#33]
That looks great, nice work!
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Posted: 5/2/2021 11:04:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Just did some myself... very nice work by the way.
 
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Posted: 5/2/2021 11:35:18 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I like the Colt SMG so much that I bought a then “restricted” Colt AR-15 9mm carbine. Me too.  Attached FileAlthough these days thanks to Colt using large pin I had to change the lower with another for testing the RBT trigger system and needed better heat shielding it can go back to OEM in a few minutes. |
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Posted: 5/3/2021 12:17:59 AM EDT
[#36]
Great looking project. A great save from tacti-cool to Retro right.
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Posted: 5/3/2021 1:29:51 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the 9mm's are known for the barrel nuts coming lose because they don't have the gas tube to keep them from rotating loose you just have to use lock tight on the barrel nut and torque them I built a Colt type 9mm a while back, and used a different method to lock the barrel nut.  I turned down the head on a long cap screw and made a threaded insert that goes inside the receiver. This was a 5.56 upper, so it had the hole for the gas tube, and a recess on the inside for the insert to press into. |
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Posted: 5/3/2021 1:34:06 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryThe only thing I am removing is the company logo. We used to have to do this kind of stuff all the time to try and make our clones a bit more retro, along with some re-profile work. I just noticed you have the "right" lower forging. You could have re-profiled it to look like an A1 lower. That would have been a little more retro. |
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Posted: 5/3/2021 7:12:15 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the 9mm's are known for the barrel nuts coming lose because they don't have the gas tube to keep them from rotating loose you just have to use lock tight on the barrel nut and torque them OP, great thread, thanks for posting about your project! I too gathered the parts for a Colt-based flattop 16" carbine and a 10.5" carry handle pistol. I haven't assembled the 16" carbine because I haven't had time, but built the pistol using an RRA barrel, Fulton Arms slick carry handle upper, Black Creek Precision 9mm lower, Spinta Precision Colt style bolt, and Foxtrot Mike extended, heavy, 9mm buffer. Buffer spring is a DPMS .308 carbine spring, and the buffer, spring, and bolt ran fine on another 10.5" 9mm upper (Aero slick upper receiver with a Ballistic Advantage 10.5" 9mm barrel). I wasn't aware that the barrel nuts on the Colt barrels unscrew themselves with use! I'm sure Colt must've used a simple solution, as it doesn't make sense to have to keep retightening them. I do know that RRA used a spring pin through the front handguard retainer and into the FSB to keep the handguards in place, but I forgot to measure it's diameter. Unfortunately, everything's stored due to remodeling. Thank you too for the idea to fill in ugly manufacturer's logos. I have used JB Weld to even out dings on metal clad front doors and after priming and painting they have held up just fine, even in Mid-Atlantic winters. Maybe I'll use it on that poverty pony! Though it was cheap at the time, at least the Olympic Arms' Lion looked good! Congrats on your build; it looks legit! |
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Posted: 5/5/2021 8:31:19 PM EDT
[#40]
Thanks a bunch everyone for the compliments, and sharing you own experiences. This is a great community!
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Posted: 5/10/2021 7:39:22 PM EDT
[#41]
After getting a KP15 monolithic polymer lower, I wound up with a spare complete lower and my first thought was to build a 635/6450.
Is the best way to get parts still to haunt the EE and other sale/auction pages? I'll need an upper with partial port door, barrel, magazine adaptor, and maybe a few other odds and ends. I'm definitely going to try your JB Weld trick on the lower logo. Thanks. David |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 9:09:56 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: After getting a KP15 monolithic polymer lower, I wound up with a spare complete lower and my first thought was to build a 635/6450. Is the best way to get parts still to haunt the EE and other sale/auction pages? I'll need an upper with partial port door, barrel, magazine adaptor, and maybe a few other odds and ends. I'm definitely going to try your JB Weld trick on the lower logo. Thanks. David Apex has Colt mag adapters but they are the ones without the last round BHO piece. Colt AR-15 / SMG Magwell Conversion Adapter, for 9mm *NEW* On left/front is the one taken out of my R0639 parts kit with the last round BHO piece. 
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Posted: 5/13/2021 6:21:09 PM EDT
[#43]
The crush washer between barrel and receiver is very interested. I’ve built 3 Colt clones using all Colt parts on upper and I’ve never installed or for that matter, knew that the item existed.
Has anyone ever seen this washer for sale or possibly where I could pick a couple up? |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:30:22 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The crush washer between barrel and receiver is very interested. I’ve built 3 Colt clones using all Colt parts on upper and I’ve never installed or for that matter, knew that the item existed. Has anyone ever seen this washer for sale or possibly where I could pick a couple up? They do exist. The split (lock washer) washer is used for A1 flash hiders where the crush washer is used to index the A2 flash hiders. I would check AR15 Sport. He has the peel washer, it's the some principle. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 5:30:49 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here are some parts I ordered preemptively in anticipation for the carbine's arrival. Included is a Brownells 2 position buffer tube, Brownells CAR stock, AR15 Sport repro lock ring, a Spikes 9mm buffer spacer, some stainless hammer and trigger pins, and a set of knock-off six hole hand guards that I already had, as well as an A2 grip, buffer end plate, and a standard trigger guard. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/410604/20210419_121541_HDR_jpg-1911422.JPG I was really excited to see the legit parts on the upper. Notice the lack of a gas tube hole in the front of the receiver, the 50M sight aperture, and the ball detent for the sight wheel (the way Colt set them up). https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/410604/20210419_134435_HDR_jpg-1911425.JPG Is the Brownells two position stock tube that you purchased Gray (Grey for UK ??) ? I can only see it as black anodized on the Brownells website. TIA. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 10:51:12 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the Brownells two position stock tube that you purchased Gray (Grey for UK ) ? I can only see it as black anodized on the Brownells website. TIA. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 10:53:54 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The crush washer between barrel and receiver is very interested. I've built 3 Colt clones using all Colt parts on upper and I've never installed or for that matter, knew that the item existed. Has anyone ever seen this washer for sale or possibly where I could pick a couple up? |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 10:58:42 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They do exist. The split (lock washer) washer is used for A1 flash hiders where the crush washer is used to index the A2 flash hiders. I would check AR15 Sport. He has the peel washer, it's the some principle. |
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