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Posted: 1/16/2021 7:35:49 PM EST
This is in regards to SD Ammo, if you had 75gr Gold Dots, would you drop them for 77gr IMI OTM rounds ?
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 7:37:15 PM EST
Just bought a case of 77gr IMI so hopefully I picked right haha
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 7:50:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 9:56:12 PM EST
One reliably expands to low velocities, the other will fragment sometimes at high velocity. Easy choice.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 11:29:03 PM EST
Depends on your personal needs and situation.
I selected 77gr IMI for my 5.56 "good" ammo.

I'm a total .300blk fanboi, and this question seems like a slightly different version of "110gr Tac-tx vs 110gr V-max"

I loaded up on V-max because I prefer fragmentation over expansion and these are also HD rounds and I live in the burbs.  
But I do have Tac-Tx as well because they are terrific rounds and they serve a different purpose.

So basically...get both.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 11:55:06 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cheekibreeki:
One reliably expands to low velocities, the other will fragment sometimes at high velocity. Easy choice.
View Quote


Which is which?
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 1:26:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2021 2:01:58 PM EST by swampvol]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By minion42:


Which is which?
View Quote

Gold dot expands and the OTM typically frags, but ive seen it do a little of both in gel tests at certain lower-mid velocities.

Link Posted: 1/17/2021 1:39:12 PM EST
Just as an FYI: My rifles are 14.5.  I do have a 11.5 but that is feed GD's.  The GD vs MK262 debate is what has gotten my attention, especially for a 14.5 the effective range.

-Bryan
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 3:20:07 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By broberts001:
Just as an FYI: My rifles are 14.5.  I do have a 11.5 but that is feed GD's.  The GD vs MK262 debate is what has gotten my attention, especially for a 14.5 the effective range.

-Bryan
View Quote

I guess I would put it this way.

The benefit of "heavy" fragmenting rounds is that when it works correctly you can often end up with fragmentation plus an expanded core....although technically MK262 isn't really a fragmenting round.  It just happens to do it when pushed fast enough...similar to M193.  

But modern expanding ammo isn't nearly as velocity dependent and is more consistent in performance that fragmenting rounds (especially those not originally designed to fragment).  There isn't really a right or wrong......just depends on how you intend on using it.

IMI 77gr
Home Defense 5.56mm Ammo: IMI's Mk 262 Clone 77gr OTM gel test


Link Posted: 1/17/2021 9:03:16 PM EST
The Gold Dot would perform very nicely at 5.56 pressures :D

5.56x45mm, 75gr GDSP, Pine Valley Munitions Review

Link Posted: 1/17/2021 9:17:51 PM EST
Gold Dots, easy choice. It will have considerably more reliable performance, and out to significantly lower MV. A better comparison would be the 75gr GD to 77gr TMK, in which case you’d be comparing rounds that will absolutely consistently perform, but one is less damaging but barrier blind while the other is more damaging but non-barrier blind.

^ That’s not to say the 77SMK won’t work too. It’ll probably work great. It just won’t work *as well as* (consistently), or with as short of a neck within the wound track.
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 10:13:32 PM EST
We recently did some testing to replace and/or augment our current issue duty load.

My Agency issues 55gr Federal Tactical for all patrol rifles.

It’s a great round with a proven track record but a lot of guys are using SBRs now

We tested the 55gr Fed Tac against the 62gr Fed Tac and 75gr Speer Gold Dot

All three rounds performed well in our FBI protocol testing

The 75gr Gold Dot did do best... specifically in shorter barreled guns.
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 10:20:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2021 10:21:20 PM EST by panthermark]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doty_soty:
Gold Dots, easy choice. It will have considerably more reliable performance, and out to significantly lower MV. A better comparison would be the 75gr GD to 77gr TMK, in which case you’d be comparing rounds that will absolutely consistently perform, but one is less damaging but barrier blind while the other is more damaging but non-barrier blind.

^ That’s not to say the 77SMK won’t work too. It’ll probably work great. It just won’t work *as well as* (consistently), or with as short of a neck within the wound track.
View Quote

TMK > SMK
I've described it as this:  If someone else is paying for the ammo, TMK's.  If I have to pay for it, SMK's.   It is why I'm loaded up with 77gr IMI....."gud enuff"  
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 4:55:16 PM EST
In a perfect world, I'd say try both and see how your guns like them.

Now, if I had to choose only one, I'd go with the Gold Dot. The 77gr MK262 may be better longer range and likely more accurate but the Gold Dot would be much more consistent terminally.

And I chose the MK262 and clones as my deep stack years ago...before the 75 Gold Dot came out.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 10:01:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By broberts001:
This is in regards to SD Ammo, if you had 75gr Gold Dots, would you drop them for 77gr IMI OTM rounds ?
View Quote


No. I have 1200 rounds of 75gr GD because... reasons. As SD ammo, it is far superior to the IMI, and accuracy is about the same.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 10:03:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2021 10:09:19 PM EST by akethan]
The 77gr is more accurate at range. Not much difference up close.

I would not drop one over the other right now. Stock up on what you can.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 10:56:33 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MONGO45:
We recently did some testing to replace and/or augment our current issue duty load.

My Agency issues 55gr Federal Tactical for all patrol rifles.

It’s a great round with a proven track record but a lot of guys are using SBRs now

We tested the 55gr Fed Tac against the 62gr Fed Tac and 75gr Speer Gold Dot

All three rounds performed well in our FBI protocol testing

The 75gr Gold Dot did do best... specifically in shorter barreled guns.
View Quote


Those 75gr Gold Dots are awesome. Probably one of the best along with the 62gr T3/TBBC.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 11:06:08 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MONGO45:
We recently did some testing to replace and/or augment our current issue duty load.

My Agency issues 55gr Federal Tactical for all patrol rifles.

It’s a great round with a proven track record but a lot of guys are using SBRs now

We tested the 55gr Fed Tac against the 62gr Fed Tac and 75gr Speer Gold Dot

All three rounds performed well in our FBI protocol testing

The 75gr Gold Dot did do best... specifically in shorter barreled guns.
View Quote


For us we were considering the 62/64gr ended up with the  Hornady GMX 55 as it seemed to perform a bit better in one of the tests at the time I don’t recall which I feel like auto glass though. That said the Gold dot was no slouch and is far easier to locate or was. The GMX 5.56 was since discontinued and replaced with a 53gr gmx patrol which had a rubber filler like the critical duty line. Not sure what we will do when it’s time to get more and vary possible Ill be switching to gold dots.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 8:37:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 10:07:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By broberts001:
This is in regards to SD Ammo, if you had 75gr Gold Dots, would you drop them for 77gr IMI OTM rounds ?
View Quote

I have both. Gold dots for penetration and mushroom. IMI for speed.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 10:31:53 AM EST
If given the choice for SD, I would pick the GD.

And at this point, if you don't have much to keep shooting, I'd get whatever is available, including M193.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 10:31:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/20/2021 10:36:22 AM EST by doty_soty]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By panthermark:

TMK > SMK
I've described it as this:  If someone else is paying for the ammo, TMK's.  If I have to pay for it, SMK's.   It is why I'm loaded up with 77gr IMI....."gud enuff"  
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Originally Posted By panthermark:
Originally Posted By doty_soty:
Gold Dots, easy choice. It will have considerably more reliable performance, and out to significantly lower MV. A better comparison would be the 75gr GD to 77gr TMK, in which case you’d be comparing rounds that will absolutely consistently perform, but one is less damaging but barrier blind while the other is more damaging but non-barrier blind.

^ That’s not to say the 77SMK won’t work too. It’ll probably work great. It just won’t work *as well as* (consistently), or with as short of a neck within the wound track.

TMK > SMK
I've described it as this:  If someone else is paying for the ammo, TMK's.  If I have to pay for it, SMK's.   It is why I'm loaded up with 77gr IMI....."gud enuff"  


Yeah all things equal, I personally prefer the TMK to the GD. I find the TMK penetrates “enough” but is more brutal within that shorter (but still long enough) penetration depth. This is my preference, because I’m not shooting through car doors or whatever. If I were, then yeah, but I don’t. But yes, BH TMKs were over $1/round even back in the good times. Precise, supremely lethal, excellent BC, and great MV, but that didn’t come cheap. I only have a few hundred left and don’t plan on buying any more until things chill back out...whenever that is.

I stock up on the GD though, because while I don’t prefer it, it still works great and is usually half the price. I bought my case of 55gr GDs for barely $500 shipped IIRC. They shoot barely over MOA, and have done quite a number on the whitetails I’ve tested them on. They’re not as catastrophic on tissue as the TMK, but they do just fine and the overall effective terminal performance looks about the same, at least from such a simple anecdotal measure.

I’m always going to be leery of the SMK. That’s my personal bias. I’m sure it usually works fine, but sometimes it doesn’t. One ice picked on a doe for me. Knocked her shit in the dirt from a chest hit, but got up and ran off like nothing happened. Near as I can tell it just zipped through. I’ve never had that happen with any other round. I’m not saying that’s empirical evidence that the SMK sucks, but rather that’s why I’m going to choose better options that don’t afford the possibility of said ice picking. SMK usually works fine, it’s just that it doesn’t work *as well as* newer options that are on the market today that do the same thing better and more consistently like the TMK. It’s like a beefier 193 for me, which I also eschew in favor of the 55 GD.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 12:15:09 PM EST
77 gr SMK is honestly one of the poorer performing heavyweight rounds out there - doesn't mean it's bad by any measure, but I'm convinced half the people who use it do so because they don't know about what else is out there.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 9:39:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 10:44:08 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45custom:
77 gr SMK is honestly one of the poorer performing heavyweight rounds out there - doesn't mean it's bad by any measure, but I'm convinced half the people who use it do so because they don't know about what else is out there.
View Quote

It gets worse. Ask this same question in GD. The people recommending reputable SD rounds will be shouted over by the peanut gallery extolling the superiority of 193.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 1:38:10 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45custom:
77 gr SMK is honestly one of the poorer performing heavyweight rounds out there - doesn't mean it's bad by any measure, but I'm convinced half the people who use it do so because they don't know about what else is out there.
View Quote


I agree. I've always found the nosler 77gr custom competition to fragment more reliably at the same velocity when compared with the SMK. And Nosler offers a 77gr CC with a cannelure so thats what I load in my "stack deep" mk262 loads. And my defensive rifles are loaded with BH 77tmks, and my "out of the house"rifle is loaded with BH 50gr optimized tsx
Link Posted: 1/22/2021 11:41:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/22/2021 11:43:11 PM EST by 45custom]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doty_soty:

It gets worse. Ask this same question in GD. The people recommending reputable SD rounds will be shouted over by the peanut gallery extolling the superiority of 193.
View Quote

Terminal ballistics discussions are indeed often pointless, often degenerating into luckygunner linking (oh I've never seen that article before!!! my savior!), overused and under-useful axioms, a refusal to acknowledge dissenting arguments, and simple irrelevancies (shot placement shot placement shot placement etc. ad nauseam).
Link Posted: 1/24/2021 9:27:18 AM EST
What about Hornady 75gr T2, how does it compare to 75gr Gold Dots?
Link Posted: 1/24/2021 10:22:56 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gtsteve03:
What about Hornady 75gr T2, how does it compare to 75gr Gold Dots?
View Quote


The T2 is more like your typical OTM so it’s going to perform similar to them. They make a 75gr loading that’s comparable to the gold dot it’s called TAP SBR it’s a expanding bullet that’s supposed to give good weight retention. I’ve not personally used any but according to there testing it’ll give anywhere from 99% in bare to 40% in glass.

That said IMO the best in the TAP line are the GMX being solid construction it stays together and penetrates well. The down side of the GMX is the velocities it needs are higher then that of the TSX so the expansion threshold will be closer. The new 53gr has a polymer tip that’s supposed to allow more reliable expansion so it may bridge the gap.
Link Posted: 1/26/2021 9:16:41 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/26/2021 9:41:01 AM EST
Gold Dots every day and twice on Sunday. Honestly before the chaos they were the same price and I wouldn't have any use for 77gr SMK unless it was more accurate or I was pushing the distance. The BC on the GD is slightly inflated from the factory but it's no slouch either. Arguably the 75gr GD is the best all purpose bullet available for magazine fed 223/556. The 77gr TMK does more tissue damage but lacks the barrier penetration of the GD
Link Posted: 1/26/2021 10:11:30 AM EST
Get both and some XM556SBCT3
Link Posted: 2/17/2021 6:12:17 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ARK_Ginger:
Gold Dots every day and twice on Sunday. Honestly before the chaos they were the same price and I wouldn't have any use for 77gr SMK unless it was more accurate or I was pushing the distance. The BC on the GD is slightly inflated from the factory but it's no slouch either. Arguably the 75gr GD is the best all purpose bullet available for magazine fed 223/556. The 77gr TMK does more tissue damage but lacks the barrier penetration of the GD
View Quote


55grain GD too?
Link Posted: 2/17/2021 6:27:15 PM EST
I’m a really big fan of the Gold Dot/Fusion/Fusion MSR bullet.

I’ve used 62gr GDSP on a half dozen deer and countless hogs.

I like that it will expand down to 1700fps. So no problem out of short guns and at longer ranges.
Link Posted: 2/17/2021 9:39:06 PM EST
The 75gr GDSP is a bullet that was engineered within the last 5 or so years that was specifically designed to have barrier-blind performance out of barrels down to 7.5”.  It was designed to punch through barriers up to and including construction materials, auto glass and steel, and still maintain appropriate penetration depths with reduced risk of over-penetration.  It was a round that was engineered to shoot human beings from the start.  

The 77gr OTM is a match bullet designed for precision target shooting.  It happens to work sufficiently in a number of platforms, but it was not engineered the same way the Speer 75gr was.  There is no design guarantee of the performance of the 77gr OTM when it hits meat.  The 75gr is a far more predictable round, mainly because it was designed to be.
Link Posted: 2/17/2021 9:57:59 PM EST
262 unless you have windshields to go through.
Link Posted: 2/18/2021 12:53:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/18/2021 12:55:10 PM EST by ArmyofHelaman]
It seems by an overwhelming margin that 75gr GD ≥ 77 TMK > 77 SMK.

How does the 75gr GD compare to XM556FBIT3? MK318 MOD-0?

Is there any downside to the lower pressure 223?
Link Posted: 2/18/2021 3:34:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Gunnie357:

They make a 75gr loading that’s comparable to the gold dot it’s called TAP SBR

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The bullet used in the Hornady 75 grain TAP SBR load is not a bonded projectile. It does however utilize an array of cannelures intended to lock the lead core of the bullet to the gilding metal jacket.














...


Link Posted: 2/18/2021 4:18:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/18/2021 4:18:55 PM EST by Dogue]
Nice to see a post from you again Molon!

Do you have any comparison of the SBR T2 vs the 8126N T2, and maybe the 75gr BTHP w/cann projectile for reloading?
Link Posted: 2/18/2021 4:25:02 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ArmyofHelaman:
It seems by an overwhelming margin that 75gr GD ≥ 77 TMK > 77 SMK.

How does the 75gr GD compare to XM556FBIT3? MK318 MOD-0?

Is there any downside to the lower pressure 223?
View Quote


I would say that this is true:
77 TMK > 77 SMK.....BUT.....TMK are $$$$ compared to SMK's.

As far as Gold Dots/expanding ammo goes....depends on how you are using it and personal preference.   As I mentioned earlier, it is the exact same scenario in the .300blk world.  110gr Tac-tx vs 110gr varmint round.   I have both.  Varmint rounds for HD for me.
Link Posted: 2/18/2021 4:57:45 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ErikS:
262 unless you have windshields to go through.
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262 has mediocre terminal effect though.
Link Posted: 2/18/2021 5:22:30 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dogue:


Do you have any comparison of the TAP SBR T2 vs the 8126N T2,

View Quote



















...
Link Posted: 2/19/2021 3:16:04 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ArmyofHelaman:
It seems by an overwhelming margin that 75gr GD ≥ 77 TMK > 77 SMK.
View Quote


Not necessarily. 75gr gold dot > SMK by an overwhelming margin, due to consistency alone, but TMK is another beast entirely. Gold dot is more barrier blind and messes up soft tissue pretty badly, but the TMK still does alright on lighter barriers and makes absolutely horrific wounds. Gold dot is a great all around, general purpose bullet, but there's really nothing in this caliber that is as devastating as the TMK in terms of pure terminal performance. For that reason as well as a few others (comes in a 5.56 loading, outstanding accuracy, best ballistic coefficient of any mag length .224" projectile, 300-500 yard frag range depending on barrel length, etc.), it's a step above the gold dot.
IMO: 77gr TMK = M855A1 > gold dot/fusion ≥ TBBC > TSX/GMX > SMK/OTM > everything else.

Between the gold dot and regular SMK though, gold dot takes the cake for sure.
Link Posted: 2/19/2021 3:16:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2021 3:17:34 AM EST by cod0396]
Accidental double post; please delete.
Link Posted: 2/19/2021 5:30:51 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cone256:
Just bought a case of 77gr IMI so hopefully I picked right haha
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I couldn't afford a case, but I did buy 100 rounds.  10 to sight in, 90 to fill up three mags.
Link Posted: 2/19/2021 6:41:59 AM EST
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Originally Posted By fadedsun:


55grain GD too?
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Originally Posted By fadedsun:
Originally Posted By ARK_Ginger:
Gold Dots every day and twice on Sunday. Honestly before the chaos they were the same price and I wouldn't have any use for 77gr SMK unless it was more accurate or I was pushing the distance. The BC on the GD is slightly inflated from the factory but it's no slouch either. Arguably the 75gr GD is the best all purpose bullet available for magazine fed 223/556. The 77gr TMK does more tissue damage but lacks the barrier penetration of the GD


55grain GD too?


Yup.

I got a case of all three weights when PSA clearanced them out at 50CPR. I prefer the 75s for hunting because my Larue particularly likes them and they have performed beyond expectations on large whitetail for me, but i see similar expansion and penetration with all three weights.
Link Posted: 2/19/2021 11:33:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2021 11:38:15 AM EST by ArmyofHelaman]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cod0396:


IMO: 77gr TMK = M855A1 > gold dot/fusion ≥ TBBC > TSX/GMX > SMK/OTM > everything else.

Between the gold dot and regular SMK though, gold dot takes the cake for sure.
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Originally Posted By cod0396:
Originally Posted By ArmyofHelaman:
It seems by an overwhelming margin that 75gr GD ≥ 77 TMK > 77 SMK.


IMO: 77gr TMK = M855A1 > gold dot/fusion ≥ TBBC > TSX/GMX > SMK/OTM > everything else.

Between the gold dot and regular SMK though, gold dot takes the cake for sure.


IMO: 77gr TMK = M855A1 > gold dot/fusion ≥ TBBC > TSX/GMX > SMK/OTM > everything else.

You would put the MK318 three levels below the gold dot? Or were you just referencing the MK262?
Link Posted: 2/19/2021 12:29:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/19/2021 12:31:29 PM EST by cod0396]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ArmyofHelaman:


IMO: 77gr TMK = M855A1 > gold dot/fusion ≥ TBBC > TSX/GMX > SMK/OTM > everything else.

You would put the MK318 three levels below the gold dot? Or were you just referencing the MK262?
View Quote


I was just referencing MK262 and other heavy OTMs like Hornady TAP. 318 slipped my mind tbh. I’d say it is about on par with gold dot/fusion. It reliably frags early on and gets crazy penetration. Great round.
Link Posted: 2/19/2021 1:50:36 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ArmyofHelaman:


IMO: 77gr TMK = M855A1 > gold dot/fusion ≥ TBBC > TSX/GMX > SMK/OTM > everything else.

You would put the MK318 three levels below the gold dot? Or were you just referencing the MK262?
View Quote



Knowing the damage 855a1 does to rifles without the proper mags I wouldn't touch it at all, especially when it shortens the life of a rifle so much.

Great for other peoples rifles and terrific affects on target however
Link Posted: 2/23/2021 3:55:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2021 4:22:56 PM EST by MS556]
Originally Posted By broberts001:
This is in regards to SD Ammo, if you had 75gr Gold Dots, would you drop them for 77gr IMI OTM rounds ?
View Quote


No.  Gold Dots are bonded soft point jacketed bullets that expand rapidly to about 2x diameter and still retain close to 100% of their weight.  They are extremely reliable and are FBI barrier blind test compliant.  The 62 grain loading is also excellent. See also the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bonded 62 grain loading, XM556FBIT3.  Hotter full 5.56 loading and ideal if you can find some.  Only downside to the Gold Dots is that they are slower, .223 velocity.  That does not matter for self defense.  Terminal ballistics are superb at those distances.

OTM bullets are thin jacketed hollow points that were originally designed as accurate target bullets and for varmints.  On human size targets or large game hey are unreliable in expansion and penetration. They rely on fragmentation which may be violent and impressive but shallow, might or might not penetrate, and if they don't yaw, can just make an icepick hole.  They are in use by military primarily because of outdated Hague Convention nonsense.

TMK (Sierra Tipped Match King) bullets are better than 77 SMK in long range application match/target work, but are still a thin jacketed varmint style bullet design.  Better terminal performance than SMKs, but not barrier blind compliant and not suitable IMO for serious hunting of large game or self-defense.

For non-mil applications such as self-defense and LE, bonded soft point jacketed bullets and monolithic copper expanding hollow points like Barnes TAC/TSX are the way to go.

Don't throw out 77 OTM or M193/M855.  Use the 77 OTM for long range target shooting (the 77 grain SMK bullet upon which the load was developed is a match target bullet), and M193/M855 for reserve when you deplete the "good stuff", or for practice, range or drills.

Link Posted: 2/23/2021 4:16:51 PM EST
In my Mk12 at 600 yards, the IMI.
In my 11.5 at 300 yards, the Gold Dots.
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