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Posted: 1/13/2021 9:51:12 PM EST
If you had to stock up on one, regardless of availability, which would it be? Possibilities could be mk262, m855A1, or others. I’m leaning towards A1 because of lethality/penetration options. Interested to hear others’ input.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 10:01:58 PM EST
If price and availability are moot then many would consider m855A1 to be the best, but mk262, mk318 are all effective rounds. Then there are the commercial loads like FBIT3/TBBC, Speer gold dot, TMK which are also proven to be great performers. A1 is likely best, but its margin of victory is slight, and some bullets have their own niches.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 10:16:38 PM EST
For Law Enforcement Duty use  you want expansion you do not want military type ammo which is designed to penetrate body armor. Overpenetration is not desirable in urban areas.  

223 REM 62GR Federal Tactical Bonded (LE223T3)  Would be a good choice.    

Having said that you are at the mercy of your Chief or dept range officer so ask them  before you purchase.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 10:20:10 PM EST
I was thinking about more of a SHTF type situation. Home defense rounds are different than SHTF. Perhaps I should’ve been more clear.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 9:12:32 AM EST
MK318
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 3:09:54 PM EST
Browntip
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 4:02:08 PM EST
Home defense?
Someone else paying?  77gr TMK's.
My money?  77gr SMK (MK262 clones)


I have a lot of IMI 77gr SMK's for my 5.56 as that is what I initially used for HD.
But there are better barrier blind rounds out there if you need them.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 4:38:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/14/2021 4:39:15 PM EST by Static17]
Barnes Varmint Grenades at 3100 fps?
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 8:30:41 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By panthermark:
Home defense?
Someone else paying?  77gr TMK's.
My money?  77gr SMK (MK262 clones)


I have a lot of IMI 77gr SMK's for my 5.56 as that is what I initially used for HD.
But there are better barrier blind rounds out there if you need them.
View Quote


I agree with this post. I have been stocking up on IMI 77gr SMK's for my SBR for home defense. It is one of the few rounds out there that is still available in these crazy times, although its pricing is getting absurd.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 8:34:54 PM EST
I'm stuck with this.
Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 10:02:05 PM EST
Yeah I use the 64gr win psp rangers for home defense.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 11:10:09 PM EST
Whenever the archived threads come back online, you'll find a wealth of information on this subject. There's tons of options and the reality is they'll all do very well on soft tissue. The real question is to what extent you value (or do not want) a barrier blind loading.

Non barrier bullets: pick any of the proven, heavy OTMs. 77SMK, 77TMK (even better), Nosler, 75gr T2, etc

Barrier defeating: Gold Dot, Fusion, Partition, TSX, TBBC (imo, the overall king of defensive bullets).

855a1 is a tremendous bullet but is almost prohibitively expensive, extremely difficult to source, and obliterates feedramps if you aren't using the epm magazine.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 11:40:14 PM EST
My choice would be:

1- M855a1
1b- Mk318
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 8:50:57 AM EST
M855a1 is good for its effects but it’s not something you want to shoot a lot of. It’s been tearing up our guns, busted locking lugs, gas rings wearing quicker, and it’s not that accurate. If you’re worried about armor then yeah it’s good but it’s that type of ammo that if you have it’s not blasting stuff. The mk318 stuff is supposed to be solid but I have no experience with it. Mk262 is accurate and good terminal ballistics.
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 10:50:46 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 135Patriots:
855a1 is a tremendous bullet but is almost prohibitively expensive, extremely difficult to source, and obliterates feedramps if you aren't using the epm magazine.
View Quote
Or M3 pmags.

And while the cost of M885A1 is high for civilian buyers, for the govt it costs about the same as M855
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 12:18:08 PM EST
For general LE use I'd recommend Speer GD or Federal TBBC T3s.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 6:48:00 PM EST
Yeah for some reason, my KACs (duty rifles) don’t like gen 3 pmags
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 12:25:19 AM EST
I'm curious why people are saying TMKs are better than regular SMK?
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 3:16:24 PM EST
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Originally Posted By RockyMountainDave:
I'm curious why people are saying TMKs are better than regular SMK?
View Quote
TMK frags very reliably and tends to do so very early in the wound track. Both bullets are long/heavy enough to have the core penetrate despite the massive early fragmentation.

77 SMK is a good bullet that has been proven the world over. TMK is even better and probably as good as it gets if we're talking about pure terminal performance. If you don't care about barrier performance, that's the bullet I'd go with. It goes off like a bomb.
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 10:34:39 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RockyMountainDave:
I'm curious why people are saying TMKs are better than regular SMK?
View Quote

A TMK is basically a heavy varmint round.
An SMK is an accuracy round that just happens to fragment when driven fast enough.

Because the TMK is meant to fragment from jump, it typically has a wider fragmentation threshold (lower velocity threshold) and shorter neck.  
Military can't use TMK (well they can, but that is a different story), but SMK's are OK because they are not designed to expand or fragment.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 11:12:43 PM EST
I carry both Federal XM556SBCT3 and M855a1.  I keep the Federal in the magwell and carry a mag of M855a1 on my duty belt in the event I need armor penetration.  With body armor being so available I never know if I get an active shooter situation and I might need something that can address armor.  I also have 100 rounds of Black Hills 77gr TMK I picked up from my local gun store.  I'm curious if I should carry that instead of the Federal.  But with the Federal and M855a1 both being 62 gr and I'm zeroed for 62gr I'm hesitant to mix it up.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 9:19:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/21/2021 9:26:17 AM EST by TGH456E]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By panthermark:

A TMK is basically a heavy varmint round.
An SMK is an accuracy round that just happens to fragment when driven fast enough.

Because the TMK is meant to fragment from jump, it typically has a wider fragmentation threshold (lower velocity threshold) and shorter neck.  
Military can't use TMK (well they can, but that is a different story), but SMK's are OK because they are not designed to expand or fragment.
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Originally Posted By panthermark:
Originally Posted By RockyMountainDave:
I'm curious why people are saying TMKs are better than regular SMK?

A TMK is basically a heavy varmint round.
An SMK is an accuracy round that just happens to fragment when driven fast enough.

Because the TMK is meant to fragment from jump, it typically has a wider fragmentation threshold (lower velocity threshold) and shorter neck.  
Military can't use TMK (well they can, but that is a different story), but SMK's are OK because they are not designed to expand or fragment.


I'm going to split hairs alittle with you, since this is a technical forum.

The TMK bullet, like the SMK, was designed and marketed as a long range accuracy bullet.
The "tipped" part of the TMK was put there to increase the BC of the bullet and compete with the Hornady offerings.  


The Army in trying to increase the effective range of the M16 series went with the mk262.

Now in practice, Shooters have found that the TMK acts more like a Ballistic Tip, but it wasn't designed to such.
Same thing, the SMK wasn't designed to expand but in use, at high enough velocities, it will....  
 

Sierra:
"....Sierra has enhanced a segment of the MatchKing line by adding the acetal resin tip, thus crowning the Tipped MatchKing (TMK) bullet line. The major advantage of adding a tip to the bullet is the reduction of drag, producing a more favorable ballistic coefficient. ……..
While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts...."
Link Posted: 1/22/2021 9:26:15 PM EST
Lets pretend all the rounds cost the same.

In order for my SHTF options in order. M855a1 - MK318 - Black Hills 50gr TSX - FBI3BIT.

Honestly what every realistically you can get a hold off, your looking at the top contenders. All have amazing performance in both short and long barrels. Exceptional barrier penetration while maintaining enough energy to put the hurt on the bad guys beyond.
Link Posted: 1/26/2021 5:55:06 PM EST
223 Federal Fusion 62 grain or 5.56 Barnes 62 grain TSX.
Link Posted: 1/26/2021 6:27:09 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tnaaron81:
223 Federal Fusion 62 grain
View Quote

Works for pigs and deer and I stocked up on it.
Link Posted: 1/26/2021 9:23:26 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TGH456E:


I'm going to split hairs alittle with you, since this is a technical forum.

The TMK bullet, like the SMK, was designed and marketed as a long range accuracy bullet.
The "tipped" part of the TMK was put there to increase the BC of the bullet and compete with the Hornady offerings.  


The Army in trying to increase the effective range of the M16 series went with the mk262.

Now in practice, Shooters have found that the TMK acts more like a Ballistic Tip, but it wasn't designed to such.
Same thing, the SMK wasn't designed to expand but in use, at high enough velocities, it will....  
 

Sierra:
"....Sierra has enhanced a segment of the MatchKing line by adding the acetal resin tip, thus crowning the Tipped MatchKing (TMK) bullet line. The major advantage of adding a tip to the bullet is the reduction of drag, producing a more favorable ballistic coefficient. ……..
While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts...."
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Fair enough, although I think they are pretty similar when you start to compare their BlitzKing vs their MatchKing vs their Tipped Matchking.

BlitzKing - For rifles, this bullet is designed for explosive expansion in varmints and small game and with accuracy characteristic of the MatchKing bullets. The nose tips of the bullets are made of a proprietary acetyl resin compound, and the sharp tips improve the ballistic coefficient over the traditional flat-base Spitzer bullet design. This bullet has a boat tail to further increase ballistic coefficient compared to a flat-base design in these bullet weights. All the BlitzKing bullets in 22 caliber are designed to be fired at muzzle velocities up to 4400 fps.
BlitzKing (.224) is only available in 45, 50, and 55gr while the Tipped MatchKing is only available in 60, 69, and 77grs.

The TMK appears to be thicker jacketed versions in heavier weights (compared to the BlitzKing), but you are correct in pointing out that there is a difference.
Link Posted: 1/26/2021 10:16:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/26/2021 11:05:24 PM EST by vet14tango10]
I have the following in my stock. Le223T1. Ra556b. Fusion MSR. Barnes 5.56 70gr Tsx. Barnes 5.56 62gr Tsx. Winchester pdx1 60gr. Forgot I have some 64gr gold dot palmetto $9.99 special from several years ago also.
Link Posted: 1/26/2021 10:52:37 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Dirtymoe21:
MK318
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Link Posted: 1/27/2021 11:55:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/27/2021 11:56:40 AM EST by Blain]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TGH456E:


I'm going to split hairs alittle with you, since this is a technical forum.

The TMK bullet, like the SMK, was designed and marketed as a long range accuracy bullet.
The "tipped" part of the TMK was put there to increase the BC of the bullet and compete with the Hornady offerings.  


The Army in trying to increase the effective range of the M16 series went with the mk262.

Now in practice, Shooters have found that the TMK acts more like a Ballistic Tip, but it wasn't designed to such.
Same thing, the SMK wasn't designed to expand but in use, at high enough velocities, it will....  
 

Sierra:
"....Sierra has enhanced a segment of the MatchKing line by adding the acetal resin tip, thus crowning the Tipped MatchKing (TMK) bullet line. The major advantage of adding a tip to the bullet is the reduction of drag, producing a more favorable ballistic coefficient. ……..
While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts...."
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Originally Posted By TGH456E:
Originally Posted By panthermark:
Originally Posted By RockyMountainDave:
I'm curious why people are saying TMKs are better than regular SMK?

A TMK is basically a heavy varmint round.
An SMK is an accuracy round that just happens to fragment when driven fast enough.

Because the TMK is meant to fragment from jump, it typically has a wider fragmentation threshold (lower velocity threshold) and shorter neck.  
Military can't use TMK (well they can, but that is a different story), but SMK's are OK because they are not designed to expand or fragment.


I'm going to split hairs alittle with you, since this is a technical forum.

The TMK bullet, like the SMK, was designed and marketed as a long range accuracy bullet.
The "tipped" part of the TMK was put there to increase the BC of the bullet and compete with the Hornady offerings.  


The Army in trying to increase the effective range of the M16 series went with the mk262.

Now in practice, Shooters have found that the TMK acts more like a Ballistic Tip, but it wasn't designed to such.
Same thing, the SMK wasn't designed to expand but in use, at high enough velocities, it will....  
 

Sierra:
"....Sierra has enhanced a segment of the MatchKing line by adding the acetal resin tip, thus crowning the Tipped MatchKing (TMK) bullet line. The major advantage of adding a tip to the bullet is the reduction of drag, producing a more favorable ballistic coefficient. ……..
While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts...."


That's not actually entirely accurate.  A cannelure was added to the 77 grain bullet upon request (against the bullet makers wishes as it would impede accuracy) for the specific purpose of it being more likely to fragment when yawing.
Link Posted: 1/30/2021 11:04:23 AM EST
Federal Fusion or Gold Dot, Mk318 or TSX. Gold dot used to be easy to come by and inexpensive compared to the rest.
Link Posted: 1/30/2021 11:22:07 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Blain:


That's not actually entirely accurate.  A cannelure was added to the 77 grain bullet upon request (against the bullet makers wishes as it would impede accuracy) for the specific purpose of it being more likely to fragment when yawing.
View Quote

As I recall, the cannelure was added for bullet setback, as per military preference. It probably does aid in fragmentation at lower velocities, but I don't believe that was why they pressured Sierra into adding it. Many military departments probably weren't even all that aware of the importance of fragmentation in the first place, it's telling how long they stuck to concepts like "energy dump" & PI/H and what not.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sierra's claim that the TMK is "not designed for expansion" were meant more to circumvent Hague than anything - stuff a giant hollowpoint in a heavyweight, thin jacketed, soft lead bullet and plug it with a polymer tip, well, you're really playing dumb if you claim to expect anything else. It's telling that Black Hills Ammo, the first vendor that actually had access to the bullet (and probably, Sierra's main source for military/LEO sales), explicitly mentioned improved terminal performance in their advertising from the very beginning.
Link Posted: 2/3/2021 4:50:00 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 0311mattp:
I was thinking about more of a SHTF type situation. Home defense rounds are different than SHTF. Perhaps I should’ve been more clear.
View Quote

I'd use some kind of a hollow point in either situation.
In a SHTF situation anything you can sling downrange at the bad guys is good ammo.
Link Posted: 2/3/2021 10:42:43 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By panthermark:
Home defense?
Someone else paying?  77gr TMK's.
My money?  77gr SMK (MK262 clones)


I have a lot of IMI 77gr SMK's for my 5.56 as that is what I initially used for HD.
But there are better barrier blind rounds out there if you need them.
View Quote

Ironically while this isn’t what I did, it’s what I’d recommend. My bedside rifle is loaded with a mag of 77 TMKs, but my “go mags” are loaded with 55gr GDs just because that’s what most of my rifles are zeroed for and I picked up a ton of them for .50 cpr.
Link Posted: 2/3/2021 10:52:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/3/2021 11:09:40 PM EST by doty_soty]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RockyMountainDave:
I'm curious why people are saying TMKs are better than regular SMK?
View Quote

TMKs are basically SMKs with a higher BC, shorter wound neck, far more consistent fragmentation, and lower fragmentation velocity. TMKs kick ass. Everything I’ve shot with them got royally messed up. The tip gives it a lot more aerodynamic efficiency, but it also makes it act like a heavy-duty varmint bullet. Like, it performs like a varmint bullet but on things more the size of a person. It’s pretty brutal.
Link Posted: 2/3/2021 11:51:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/3/2021 11:51:43 PM EST by TGH456E]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45custom:

As I recall, the cannelure was added for bullet setback, as per military preference. It probably does aid in fragmentation at lower velocities, but I don't believe that was why they pressured Sierra into adding it. Many military departments probably weren't even all that aware of the importance of fragmentation in the first place, it's telling how long they stuck to concepts like "energy dump" & PI/H and what not.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sierra's claim that the TMK is "not designed for expansion" were meant more to circumvent Hague than anything - stuff a giant hollowpoint in a heavyweight, thin jacketed, soft lead bullet and plug it with a polymer tip, well, you're really playing dumb if you claim to expect anything else. It's telling that Black Hills Ammo, the first vendor that actually had access to the bullet (and probably, Sierra's main source for military/LEO sales), explicitly mentioned improved terminal performance in their advertising from the very beginning.
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Originally Posted By 45custom:
Originally Posted By Blain:


That's not actually entirely accurate.  A cannelure was added to the 77 grain bullet upon request (against the bullet makers wishes as it would impede accuracy) for the specific purpose of it being more likely to fragment when yawing.

As I recall, the cannelure was added for bullet setback, as per military preference. It probably does aid in fragmentation at lower velocities, but I don't believe that was why they pressured Sierra into adding it. Many military departments probably weren't even all that aware of the importance of fragmentation in the first place, it's telling how long they stuck to concepts like "energy dump" & PI/H and what not.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sierra's claim that the TMK is "not designed for expansion" were meant more to circumvent Hague than anything - stuff a giant hollowpoint in a heavyweight, thin jacketed, soft lead bullet and plug it with a polymer tip, well, you're really playing dumb if you claim to expect anything else. It's telling that Black Hills Ammo, the first vendor that actually had access to the bullet (and probably, Sierra's main source for military/LEO sales), explicitly mentioned improved terminal performance in their advertising from the very beginning.


FWIW Blain:
I'm with 45 on part of this........ the cannelure was for bullet set back.  Not for yaw/fragmentation.

But not with 45 on the whole "Hague convention" comment............  the question of the SMK's and their legality with the Military was settled with the 175 SMK's about 20yrs ago........in the M118LR loading.    
So there is no need to hide it (the OTM design of the bullet)...........with a tipped bullet now.
Link Posted: 2/4/2021 12:00:44 AM EST
I'm stocked up on Hornaday 75gr T2
Link Posted: 2/4/2021 3:16:16 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doty_soty:

TMKs are basically SMKs with a higher BC, shorter wound neck, far more consistent fragmentation, and lower fragmentation velocity. TMKs kick ass. Everything I've shot with them got royally messed up. The tip gives it a lot more aerodynamic efficiency, but it also makes it act like a heavy-duty varmint bullet. Like, it performs like a varmint bullet but on things more the size of a person. It's pretty brutal.
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What he said. For sheer effect on target, I'm not sure if there's a better bullet out there in the caliber. Whether you want or need a barrier blind loading is the only question - if not, 77TMK is a whale of a bullet and an exceptional choice. SMK is no slouch but TMK does everything better and more consistently.
Link Posted: 2/4/2021 11:59:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/4/2021 12:11:28 PM EST by 45custom]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TGH456E:


But not with 45 on the whole "Hague convention" comment............  the question of the SMK's and their legality with the Military was settled with the 175 SMK's about 20yrs ago........in the M118LR loading.    
So there is no need to hide it (the OTM design of the bullet)...........with a tipped bullet now.
View Quote

To rephrase it:

The SMK design never was made to expand, and passes Hague without any disingenuity. Not that the whole prohibition isn't retarded to begin with, but I digress.

There's a good chance that the TMK in fact was made to expand - in comparison to the SMK, the hollowpoint is far larger and readily allows for hydraulic expansion, and the jacket is thinner as well - but admitting as much would disqualify it for foreign military sales, so it's easier to say it totally wasn't made for expansion and any effects to the such are just a happy accident.
Link Posted: 2/4/2021 1:06:52 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 45custom:

To rephrase it:

The SMK design never was made to expand, and passes Hague without any disingenuity. Not that the whole prohibition isn't retarded to begin with, but I digress.

There's a good chance that the TMK in fact was made to expand - in comparison to the SMK, the hollowpoint is far larger and readily allows for hydraulic expansion, and the jacket is thinner as well - but admitting as much would disqualify it for foreign military sales, so it's easier to say it totally wasn't made for expansion and any effects to the such are just a happy accident.
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Originally Posted By 45custom:
Originally Posted By TGH456E:


But not with 45 on the whole "Hague convention" comment............  the question of the SMK's and their legality with the Military was settled with the 175 SMK's about 20yrs ago........in the M118LR loading.    
So there is no need to hide it (the OTM design of the bullet)...........with a tipped bullet now.

To rephrase it:

The SMK design never was made to expand, and passes Hague without any disingenuity. Not that the whole prohibition isn't retarded to begin with, but I digress.

There's a good chance that the TMK in fact was made to expand - in comparison to the SMK, the hollowpoint is far larger and readily allows for hydraulic expansion, and the jacket is thinner as well - but admitting as much would disqualify it for foreign military sales, so it's easier to say it totally wasn't made for expansion and any effects to the such are just a happy accident.


I remember someone saying (how’s that for authoritative) that TMKs were in limited use with some smaller US military units. I don’t know the veracity of that, but it’s neat if so.
Link Posted: 2/4/2021 1:40:50 PM EST
For home defense, match type bullets, or varmint type bullets would reduce the problems of over penetration normally associated with military type FMJ bullets, or bullets with penetrator cores.  I know I wouldn't want to get hit with a 52 grain varmint bullet,or  68/69 grain BTHP match bullet.

I think the wisest course of action is to have access to a few different types of ammunition.  With that said, it is impossible to predict which kind of ammunition will be best for every situation before the situation presents itself.  If there is time to select ammunition type, then that would be great..otherwise, it is just a crap shoot at what might get the job done.  

I don't care what type of 5.56 ammo is in someone else's rifle, I just know I don't want to get hit by one of their bullets, regardless of which type of bullet they are using.
Link Posted: 2/4/2021 4:43:57 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doty_soty:


I remember someone saying (how’s that for authoritative) that TMKs were in limited use with some smaller US military units. I don’t know the veracity of that, but it’s neat if so.
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Wouldn't be surprised in the least, there's some sheet out there showing the DOD placed an order for some thousands of it going by the NSN.
Link Posted: 2/4/2021 6:02:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/4/2021 6:02:51 PM EST by ColtSeavers]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45custom:
The SMK design never was made to expand, and passes Hague without any disingenuity. Not that the whole prohibition isn't retarded to begin with, but I digress.

There's a good chance that the TMK in fact was made to expand - in comparison to the SMK, the hollowpoint is far larger and readily allows for hydraulic expansion, and the jacket is thinner as well - but admitting as much would disqualify it for foreign military sales, so it's easier to say it totally wasn't made for expansion and any effects to the such are just a happy accident.
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This.

Also, because people have forgotten, the US never signed that part of The Hague Convention (no expanding ammo). We just decide to adhear to it regardless, for some retarded reason.

The U.S. ratified the first three articles of the 1899 Hague Convention but never signed Article IV. Additionally, Article IV, Section 3 states that the prohibition on the use of hollow points applies only in a conflict between two signatories. Even if the U.S.A. signed Article IV, the provisions wouldn’t apply to the United States unless fighting another signatory state.
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https://sofrep.com/gear/u-s-army-adopts-hollow-point-ammo/
Link Posted: 2/4/2021 7:30:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/4/2021 7:38:05 PM EST by TGH456E]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45custom:

To rephrase it:

The SMK design never was made to expand, and passes Hague without any disingenuity. Not that the whole prohibition isn't retarded to begin with, but I digress.

There's a good chance that the TMK in fact was made to expand - in comparison to the SMK, the hollowpoint is far larger and readily allows for hydraulic expansion, and the jacket is thinner as well - but admitting as much would disqualify it for foreign military sales, so it's easier to say it totally wasn't made for expansion and any effects to the such are just a happy accident.
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Originally Posted By 45custom:
Originally Posted By TGH456E:


But not with 45 on the whole "Hague convention" comment............  the question of the SMK's and their legality with the Military was settled with the 175 SMK's about 20yrs ago........in the M118LR loading.    
So there is no need to hide it (the OTM design of the bullet)...........with a tipped bullet now.

To rephrase it:

The SMK design never was made to expand, and passes Hague without any disingenuity. Not that the whole prohibition isn't retarded to begin with, but I digress.

There's a good chance that the TMK in fact was made to expand - in comparison to the SMK, the hollowpoint is far larger and readily allows for hydraulic expansion, and the jacket is thinner as well - but admitting as much would disqualify it for foreign military sales, so it's easier to say it totally wasn't made for expansion and any effects to the such are just a happy accident.


I'll go with Sierra and what they say............. it's pretty straight forward...................  
Sierra:
"....Sierra has enhanced a segment of the MatchKing line by adding the acetal resin tip, thus crowning the Tipped MatchKing (TMK) bullet line. The major advantage of adding a tip to the bullet is the reduction of drag, producing a more favorable ballistic coefficient. ……..
While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts...."

It's right there on the website.............  

And by all means ........... I'd like to see the NSN on these bullets..........
Also you seem to have some insight in some military contracts for these bullets, care to share?  

In the mean time, Sierra designed these for accuracy, sells them for accuracy and thats it.  
Now others have realized that the tip causes them, sometimes, to open up and act like say a Ballistic Tip.

Lastly, on your thoughts that a "military" would use these:
If they wanted to, they would just use them.....
if they needed approval they would get it (Just like the US Military and the SMK) .........
What they would not need to do is have Sierra lie about it...........  

Noone except the US/Europe cares about the "Hague" criteria..........  
So they would just buy the bullets and be done with this.              
Link Posted: 2/4/2021 9:16:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/4/2021 9:23:56 PM EST by ColtSeavers]
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Originally Posted By TGH456E:


I'll go with Sierra and what they say............. it's pretty straight forward...................  
Sierra:
"....Sierra has enhanced a segment of the MatchKing line by adding the acetal resin tip, thus crowning the Tipped MatchKing (TMK) bullet line. The major advantage of adding a tip to the bullet is the reduction of drag, producing a more favorable ballistic coefficient. ……..
While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts...."

It's right there on the website.............  

And by all means ........... I'd like to see the NSN on these bullets..........
Also you seem to have some insight in some military contracts for these bullets, care to share?  

In the mean time, Sierra designed these for accuracy, sells them for accuracy and thats it.  
Now others have realized that the tip causes them, sometimes, to open up and act like say a Ballistic Tip.

Lastly, on your thoughts that a "military" would use these:
If they wanted to, they would just use them.....
if they needed approval they would get it (Just like the US Military and the SMK) .........
What they would not need to do is have Sierra lie about it...........  

Noone except the US/Europe cares about the "Hague" criteria..........  
So they would just buy the bullets and be done with this.              
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Originally Posted By TGH456E:
Originally Posted By 45custom:
Originally Posted By TGH456E:


But not with 45 on the whole "Hague convention" comment............  the question of the SMK's and their legality with the Military was settled with the 175 SMK's about 20yrs ago........in the M118LR loading.    
So there is no need to hide it (the OTM design of the bullet)...........with a tipped bullet now.

To rephrase it:

The SMK design never was made to expand, and passes Hague without any disingenuity. Not that the whole prohibition isn't retarded to begin with, but I digress.

There's a good chance that the TMK in fact was made to expand - in comparison to the SMK, the hollowpoint is far larger and readily allows for hydraulic expansion, and the jacket is thinner as well - but admitting as much would disqualify it for foreign military sales, so it's easier to say it totally wasn't made for expansion and any effects to the such are just a happy accident.


I'll go with Sierra and what they say............. it's pretty straight forward...................  
Sierra:
"....Sierra has enhanced a segment of the MatchKing line by adding the acetal resin tip, thus crowning the Tipped MatchKing (TMK) bullet line. The major advantage of adding a tip to the bullet is the reduction of drag, producing a more favorable ballistic coefficient. ……..
While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts...."

It's right there on the website.............  

And by all means ........... I'd like to see the NSN on these bullets..........
Also you seem to have some insight in some military contracts for these bullets, care to share?  

In the mean time, Sierra designed these for accuracy, sells them for accuracy and thats it.  
Now others have realized that the tip causes them, sometimes, to open up and act like say a Ballistic Tip.

Lastly, on your thoughts that a "military" would use these:
If they wanted to, they would just use them.....
if they needed approval they would get it (Just like the US Military and the SMK) .........
What they would not need to do is have Sierra lie about it...........  

Noone except the US/Europe cares about the "Hague" criteria..........  
So they would just buy the bullets and be done with this.              

Link Posted: 2/4/2021 9:20:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/4/2021 9:23:20 PM EST by 45custom]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TGH456E:

It's right there on the website.............  

And by all means ........... I'd like to see the NSN on these bullets..........
Also you seem to have some insight in some military contracts for these bullets, care to share?  
           
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Originally Posted By TGH456E:

It's right there on the website.............  

And by all means ........... I'd like to see the NSN on these bullets..........
Also you seem to have some insight in some military contracts for these bullets, care to share?  
           

My mistake, I should've said manufacturer SKU (D556N19), the listing is found on this page:

https://gov.data2www.com/vendor/USA/601449515

Upon investigation it would appear this was probably for an AMU competition team rather than combat usage, so it looks like these are not the droids we're looking for.

if they needed approval they would get it (Just like the US Military and the SMK) .........

SMK is however not an expanding design, hence why it requires no disingenuity on anyone's part to justify. The nose cavity is too small to facilitate expansion, as can be seen in this comparison:

The fragmentation is induced by yawing, which breaks the bullet apart, much like M193 or M855. Sometimes the exposed lead core then begins expanding, but this can't honestly be said to have been engineered and doesn't always happen.

This is in contrast to TMK where the polymer tip is forced into a very large hollowpoint cavity that causes the bullet to begin mushrooming. The effect is highly consistent - between my own and others' ballistic gelatin testing, and tens of hunting reports, including someone who claims to have killed hundreds of game animals with 77 gr TMKs, I have never seen a case where it has not expanded at reasonable velocities.

Black Hills, the primary military vendor for Sierra projectiles and the sole source for cannelured 77 gr TMK bullets, began selling its TMK loading before the reloading component even became available on the market. Improved terminal performance as both described in their wording and as displayed in their associated gelatin testing has been part of their advertising from the very beginning.
Link Posted: 2/5/2021 12:07:13 PM EST
Does it really matter if SMK or TMK was designed to fragment at all when SOCOM guys have been known to use 70gr Brown Tip? Which is designed to expand as it is a Barnes TSX solid copper hollow point, which is designed to specifically expand.
Link Posted: 2/5/2021 3:32:27 PM EST
I think this is over thought. If a bullet is good at killing deer, it's going to be good for defense.
Link Posted: 2/6/2021 4:56:33 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45custom:

My mistake, I should've said manufacturer SKU (D556N19), the listing is found on this page:

https://gov.data2www.com/vendor/USA/601449515

Upon investigation it would appear this was probably for an AMU competition team rather than combat usage, so it looks like these are not the droids we're looking for.


SMK is however not an expanding design, hence why it requires no disingenuity on anyone's part to justify. The nose cavity is too small to facilitate expansion, as can be seen in this comparison:https://www.m14forum.com/attachments/77gr-20tmk20vs2077gr-20smk20otm_zps9q471eki-jpg.386028/

The fragmentation is induced by yawing, which breaks the bullet apart, much like M193 or M855. Sometimes the exposed lead core then begins expanding, but this can't honestly be said to have been engineered and doesn't always happen.

This is in contrast to TMK where the polymer tip is forced into a very large hollowpoint cavity that causes the bullet to begin mushrooming. The effect is highly consistent - between my own and others' ballistic gelatin testing, and tens of hunting reports, including someone who claims to have killed hundreds of game animals with 77 gr TMKs, I have never seen a case where it has not expanded at reasonable velocities.

Black Hills, the primary military vendor for Sierra projectiles and the sole source for cannelured 77 gr TMK bullets, began selling its TMK loading before the reloading component even became available on the market. Improved terminal performance as both described in their wording and as displayed in their associated gelatin testing has been part of their advertising from the very beginning.
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45 Custom:
The contract sheet you linked has in it the BHA's contract for the MK262........  
There are no contracts listed for the 77TMK.  
So where are the Military contracts for the 77TMK you spoke of?  

Link Posted: 2/6/2021 4:58:03 PM EST
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Originally Posted By deer6837:
I think this is over thought. If a bullet is good at killing deer, it's going to be good for defense.
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Yes.  
Link Posted: 2/6/2021 11:42:36 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TGH456E:


Yes.  
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Originally Posted By TGH456E:
Originally Posted By deer6837:
I think this is over thought. If a bullet is good at killing deer, it's going to be good for defense.


Yes.  

Accurate. I don’t know why some people act like the results aren’t transferable. They’re both thin skinned mammals of approximately the same size. Their hide even approximates clothing. Once you’ve shot enough deer with a round to get a good feel for it’s performance, I’ll take that over gel any day. For what it’s worth, I have access to and experience with gel as well.
Link Posted: 2/9/2021 1:42:19 PM EST
mk262 if $ isn't a question, super easy choice. Any 77gr soft point good too.

m855a1 is just too hot for a SHTF round, you don't want to risk a total rifle failure when spare parts aren't cheap and easy to acquire. Now if someone made a rifle specific to this round that was designed for the extra pressures, maybe, but then we're talking closer to ar10 weights I'm guessing.

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