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Page AR-15 » Troubleshooting
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Posted: 12/2/2018 11:16:00 PM EDT
So I have 2 PSA complete uppers that are both suffering the same symptoms. Bolt won't lock back after the last round and failure to eject 95% of the time. I was using Winchester 55g 5.56 and tried a couple different magazines.

1st upper I picked up last year but didn't finish until a couple weeks ago is a PSA 18" rifle length gas with FSB. I've had this apart to to install a MI rail and used HB aligning pins so I'm pretty confident its lined up correctly. I can also tell you that the gas port is between .085 and .090. I also added a vg6 brake.

2nd upper I picked up for my father in law during the black friday sale is a PSA 18" rifle length gas with fixed gas block and 15" rail. Haven't touched this one.

Both have PSA nickel boron bolts and are on Anderson lowers with PSA carbine build kits.

I've spent the last 2 days doing my research and will be borrowing a rifle lower and a H buffer from a buddy next weekend to give those a try. I've already broken them down and cleaned/oiled with clp. I'll also be breaking into a can of Federal 62g 5.56.

If that doesn't help I'm stumped and thinking of trying:

1 - a lightweight bcg under the assumption that low gas might move a lighter bcg better?
2 - punching out the gas port as a last ditch before just buying a new barrel

Any other suggestions? Its been 30 deg both times I've had them out fwiw
Link Posted: 12/3/2018 12:30:06 AM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 12/3/2018 1:37:05 PM EDT
[#2]
Would I be better off swapping to a 20” barrel as far as reliability goes?
Link Posted: 12/3/2018 3:45:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Check for leaks and blockages

Rubber tube on the end of the gas tube will allow you to check for leaks of the gas block to barrel/block to gas tube, and holding the bolt inwards will also allow you to check the key to top of carrier for leaks through the front of the key.   Normally CLP around the edges of everything that your checking for leaks will show the bubbles when the two are compressed with about 100lbs of air via compressor gun nozzle if you do have leakage, but you can use some soapy water that will bubble up better if desired.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=https://youtu.be/ZNAF1nM_g1c

As for blockages, pretty easy to see if the gas block passage is not indexed correctly on barrel gas port, since the fouling ring will not be centered on the barrel gas port.

Next on the list, and make sure that the upper has been cleaned of all storage grease, including using a chamber brush with CLP by hand to scrub the chamber.  Also, since the uppers have been pulled apart, check to make sure that the carrier still moves freely in the upper receiver, and the gas tube is tweaked correctly to align with the carrier key.  Hence gas block passage has to be centered on the barrel gas port, so we tweak the gas tube over the middle of the barrel to correctly index it with the carrier key.

And no, not a fan of light weight B/C's.  Hence the math of the bolt unlock timing is gas port size, recoil spring tension, and then weight of B/C and buffer.  
If the bolt unlocks too fast, then this cause short stroking since the residual pressure in the bore is too high at unlock, and the spent case is too pressure bound to the chamber for a clean pull.  So by going to a light weight B/C, you have to go to a heaver buffer to bring the math back in check, and resolved/helped nothing since you still have the same reciprocating weight over all in the end.
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"Video unavailable" Looks like the last part of the youtube video url got "hijacked". Looks like a FU msg. Check out the partial url in bold: https%2F%2Fyout
Link Posted: 12/3/2018 7:17:54 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
Would I be better off swapping to a 20” barrel as far as reliability goes?
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18'' rifle length barrels can run reliably. I would not blame the barrel length.
I am betting the gas ports are undersized.
Link Posted: 12/4/2018 12:32:39 AM EDT
[#5]
I’ve had one apart and it measured about .085. The other I’ve had only a couple days and have already emailed psa about. Haven’t heard anything back yet so I’m going to make a phone call tokorrow
Link Posted: 12/4/2018 9:16:50 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I’ve had one apart and it measured about .085. The other I’ve had only a couple days and have already emailed psa about. Haven’t heard anything back yet so I’m going to make a phone call tokorrow
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~.093 is the correct size for a 20'' rifle length barrel. An 18'' will have the same gas pressure but shorter dwell time/gas volume so the port should be a bit larger than a 20''. My 20'' PSA barrel originally had the same .085 port as your 18'' and short stroked just like your 18''. I drilled the port to the correct .093 size and it now runs great.
The average gas tube I.D. is around ~.110 so we are getting close to the maximum gas that is able to be delivered from the port for an 18'' to function correctly, IMO. I'm not sure what the spec is for the gas port on an 18'' rifle length but I would guess it to be around .095?
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 12:17:57 AM EDT
[#7]
How’d you go about drilling it yourself?

Here’s my plan. I ordered a #41 and #43 bit to open it up slow and with only about .005 a pass being removed, it shouldn’t wander from the pilot hole. Plan to take it slow and use lots of cutting oil.
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 9:45:02 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
How’d you go about drilling it yourself?

Here’s my plan. I ordered a #41 and #43 bit to open it up slow and with only about .005 a pass being removed, it shouldn’t wander from the pilot hole. Plan to take it slow and use lots of cutting oil.
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Your plan sounds good. Be careful not to drill into the opposing rifling. Clean up any debris/shavings from the barrel before shooting it. Enlarging the port is super simple.
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 10:03:06 AM EDT
[#9]
Honestly I would call CS first and give PSA an opportunity to inspect them first. You could also send an IM to @PalmettoStateArmory. Josiah will definitely take care of you.
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 1:00:44 PM EDT
[#10]
More times than not, failure to cycle reliably on a new build is a misaligned gas block.

Make sure the rifle is well lubed.

Rifle stock or carbine? What weight carbine buffer?

Run a standard carbine buffer to start, go heavier if it runs too fast. Don't be afraid to run really heavy buffers provided the rifle continues to lock open on an empty magazine.

I have never had to open the gas port of a 5.56mm rifle to get them running reliably. I have opened up one 7.62x39mm rifle gassed and one 6.8spc rifle gassed. That should be your last option.
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 2:51:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
More times than not, failure to cycle reliably on a new build is a misaligned gas block.

Make sure the rifle is well lubed.

Rifle stock or carbine? What weight carbine buffer?

Run a standard carbine buffer to start, go heavier if it runs too fast. Don't be afraid to run really heavy buffers provided the rifle continues to lock open on an empty magazine.

I have never had to open the gas port of a 5.56mm rifle to get them running reliably. I have opened up one 7.62x39mm rifle gassed and one 6.8spc rifle gassed. That should be your last option.
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I agree that opening the port is the final option after making sure no other problems exist but sometimes it is necessary. In the OP's case, he has 18'' rifle length barrels with ports that are known to be undersized. I seriously doubt that over pressure/early extraction is causing cases to weld to the chamber in his case.
Besides stuck cases from early extraction, short stroking is going to be from too little gas or too much friction, (or a faulty carrier).

For the OP to check
Possible reasons for too little gas=
Too small of a gas port.
Gas leaking at the gas block/barrel connection.
Gas leaking at the gas block/gas tube connection.
Loose gas key.
Gas block not aligned with the gas port.

Possible reasons of added friction=
Rough/tight chamber
Buffer or buffer spring too heavy.
bolt/barrel extension not timed correctly.
Gas key/gas tube not aligned correctly.
Overly tight gas rings.
Receiver extension not aligned with the receiver.
Receiver misshapen.
Rough surface inside receiver or extension.
Foreign material loose in the carriers path.
Friction from the mag or the next round in the mag on the carrier.

If everything is checked and no other problems exist the port is simply not giving enough gas to cycle.

Since the OP has two of the same barrels and both are short stroking, combined with the known undersized port, combined with it being 18'' rifle length, combined with the issue happening with multiple lowers and carriers, the problem is likely the small port size, IMO.
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 3:09:17 PM EDT
[#12]
Got an email from psa to generate a return for the newer barrel. I didn’t touch it because I didn’t want to void any warranty. The other I’ve had apart a couple times to install a rail. I measured the port and used port aligners on it so I know the fsb is in the right spot. I doubt that one would be warrantied at this point so I’m just going to open it up. Visual inspection is fine for both. Also both already have carbine buffers and springs.
Link Posted: 12/5/2018 4:33:40 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Got an email from psa to generate a return for the newer barrel. I didn't touch it because I didn't want to void any warranty. The other I've had apart a couple times to install a rail. I measured the port and used port aligners on it so I know the fsb is in the right spot. I doubt that one would be warrantied at this point so I'm just going to open it up. Visual inspection is fine for both. Also both already have carbine buffers and springs.
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Send it back, they'll inspect it.
Link Posted: 12/7/2018 6:53:57 PM EDT
[#14]
I suspect it is a matter of matching the buffer spring to his rifle length gas system. The carbine spring is too stiff, IMO causing the short stroking.
Link Posted: 12/9/2018 1:07:39 AM EDT
[#15]
What spring would you recommend?
Link Posted: 12/9/2018 11:44:24 AM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 12/9/2018 2:19:40 PM EDT
[#17]
With a rifle gas system, the bolt travels to the rear a little slower than with shorter gas systems. This results in less force as it impacts the buffer. Using a carbine spring/buffer may be keeping the bolt from going to the rear as far as it should since it is designed for the higher speed and force of the shorter gas system. A rifle system will cycle slower slower than a mid-length and it in turn slower than a carbine, etc...

I have AR lowers with pistol, carbine, and rifle buffer systems. When I put an upper on them, I make sure the gas system matches the recoil buffer and spring system. Since I have been doing this, everything seems to run as it should when I go to the range.

Take a look at the information here and it may explain what I am trying to express:

https://www.at3tactical.com/blogs/news/9298047-carbine-mid-or-rifle-a-beginner-s-guide-to-ar15-gas-systems
Link Posted: 12/9/2018 3:35:39 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 12/11/2018 6:16:36 PM EDT
[#19]
Did the OP try these uppers on a rifle lower setup yet?
Link Posted: 12/12/2018 12:04:04 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Did the OP try these uppers on a rifle lower setup yet?
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Haven’t had a chance yet. I will this weekend before I drill the gas port. PSA sent a return label for the other.
Link Posted: 12/14/2018 10:04:26 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Haven’t had a chance yet. I will this weekend before I drill the gas port. PSA sent a return label for the other.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Did the OP try these uppers on a rifle lower setup yet?
Haven’t had a chance yet. I will this weekend before I drill the gas port. PSA sent a return label for the other.
There is a slight difference in spring tension vs. buffer weight and cycle speed between carbine and rifle systems, as was explained earlier. It's possible that an AR may function with a rifle system and not function with a carbine or vise versa. I would question reliability with either if only one allows function though.
Either recoil system should work reliably with any gas system and barrel length. The difference between carbine and rifle is small enough that either should work reliably, otherwise the other is only borderline functioning, in my opinion.
If a rifle system did manage to function, I would still question reliability when dirt, different loads or different temperatures are introduced.
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