I have had 2 AKs that were jamming peices of shit. One was a WASR, the other was a VERY nice looking bulgie 74.


If the SHTF, I will be avoiding a gunfight at all cost. My AR will do just fine.

Both systems have their place.  But like someone said, use commie block calibers in your AK, 'cause it wasn't designed for the straight sided 5.56.

I have a WASR10 that is my camping gun.  With folding stock it fits in a camp chair bag and fits in around the campsite.  In 7.62X39 with hunting ammo, it's a decent bear stopper, and good for goblins too.  Extremely reliable, but so-so accuracy.  I wouldn't trust it for a head shot past 50 yards, but I could really scare someone at 200!  If it falls down, or I accidentally drive over it, who cares - it's an AK!

For shtf, I prefer an AR in 5.56.  Very reliable if properly maintained. MUCH more accurate than the AK.  Better/quicker handling.  Lighter ammo.  Enough power to take down game with well placed shots.  Flat shooting making hits at 300+ yards doable.  What's not to like?  

And, what's so hard about learning to seat a mag?

Quoted: The AK shooter that hasn't had a jam hasn't shot an AK enough.

Too true.

There has been WAY too many anecdotal reportings of AKs failing in Iraq and Afghanistan. And guess what? Almost every malfunction comes from the 'superior' magazines of the AK system!

It always comes down to training, the weapons system has about 10% to do with the whole equation. If you can't seat your mags properly, then you need to practice changing magazines more. Push it in, then pull to make sure it's seated. Do it until it's muscle memory.

Let's define what a true SHTF situation is?

In America, your going to be at a disadvantage if you are relying on BLOC ammo.

Your options for obtaining more ammo would be from scavenging the local gun store and hoping it hasn't been cleaned out. 0dds are good though it will be, and you will be SOL.

Maybe you might find a police HQ that was abandoned. 20 pesos says they won't have any cases of BLOC ammo there. Maybe you'll get lucky and find a bit of 5.56.

5.56 is the caliber of america's rifle. So is .308 to a lesser degree.

Those are your best bets for availability.

Going out on raids with your buddies to take someone else's ammo stash would be a really bad idea. 100 pesos says they'll be on alert for something like that. Just like you would be.

Scavenging is the best choice for resupply and it will be slim pickings. You'd have better odds of finding widely used ammo which is the standard issue caliber of your country's government. In the USA, that is 5.56/.223.

Another consideration is parts availability. You won't find too many AK parts laying around at an abandoned police HQ or military base. You might however be lucky enough to find a few spare M16 parts though.

The AK has a reputation as rugged and reliable and mostly that reputation is true. But it is made of metal and the rules of metal fatigue still apply. Abuse it enough and put enough rounds through it and something WILL break or wear out eventually.

A lot of good responses. I have actually reconsidered my original premise that the AR is a shitty weapon for shtf. That easymag demo was most impressive. I'd imagine easymags are on par with hk mags(also steel) in terms of durability. But they take it to a whole new level obviously in terms of ease of use.

Maybe I need to think twice before I abandon the AR altogether; all I need is a bit more training with how to seat a mag properly, etc. And I need to use easy mags apparently!!! (I'm a sucker for advertising). Obviously both have their place in war, hunting, other applications etc.

I think some of you really need to lighten up here. The purpose of the forum should be to have a pleasant conversation and bandy about ideas. If my ideas seem stupid to you, then don't dignify them with a response. We don't all know as much as you, and when you act like a know it all middle school bully you don't demonstrate your brilliance, you only reveal what an angry jackass you are.

This is a not peer reviewed scientific journal where we submit our finely crafted theses backed up by loads of "empirical data." Sure, there are serious threads with serious technical discussions, but clearly this was not meant to be one of them.

To answer some of your ruder questions, such as have I ever fired some of these weapons outside of my xbox? Yes. Do I even own an xbox? No. Have I ever had military training and qualified with an m16 on a live fire range? Yes, but it was a long time ago, so no I don't know every little thing about clearing malfunctions, but I do know from occasional shooting there are slight differences in clearing a problem with an ak because it does have a nice big charging handle. Did I recognize the guy in the video had a carbon 15 and not an ar15? Yes, but I didn't think at the time it would ruin the fun of the discussion. It was just a fun video I came across.

And no, I am not a producer or promoter of this stupid camera video. Do I know everything about all weapons? Absolutely not. I think that's why we're here, to learn. So stop being so rude to people just because they are posting something to start a lively discussion. Even though the topic has been beat to death, I know I for one learned something useful from this, and that is, in addition to what I learned above, that someone here who at least sounds like they know what they're talking about thinks 5.56 is not a natural caliber for aks,  so I should stick with the other calibers I'll probably be ok. Good to know!

Quoted: Quoted: The AK shooter that hasn't had a jam hasn't shot an AK enough. Too true. There has been WAY too many anecdotal reportings of AKs failing in Iraq and Afghanistan. And guess what? Almost every malfunction comes from the 'superior' magazines of the AK system! It always comes down to training, the weapons system has about 10% to do with the whole equation. If you can't seat your mags properly, then you need to practice changing magazines more. Push it in, then pull to make sure it's seated. Do it until it's muscle memory.

See? This is what we call good advice and discussion. It's so simple but I never knew or somehow forgot about pulling to verify it's locked in there. Plus, I think people are right, the AR take a little more training than the ak, you have to remember to be rough, force the mag in there nice and tight, slap it, pull it to test. If you train and use it right it can be just as reliable as the Ak.

So I think I actually have been "persuaded" through the course of this, to some degree. I still like my collectible Aks and I still like a lot of design aspects of the aks, but I think I was jumping to conclusions about the ar.

Quoted: Let's define what a true SHTF situation is? In America, your going to be at a disadvantage if you are relying on BLOC ammo. Your options for obtaining more ammo would be from scavenging the local gun store and hoping it hasn't been cleaned out. 0dds are good though it will be, and you will be SOL. Maybe you might find a police HQ that was abandoned. 20 pesos says they won't have any cases of BLOC ammo there. Maybe you'll get lucky and find a bit of 5.56. 5.56 is the caliber of america's rifle. So is .308 to a lesser degree. Those are your best bets for availability. Going out on raids with your buddies to take someone else's ammo stash would be a really bad idea. 100 pesos says they'll be on alert for something like that. Just like you would be. Scavenging is the best choice for resupply and it will be slim pickings. You'd have better odds of finding widely used ammo which is the standard issue caliber of your country's government. In the USA, that is 5.56/.223. Another consideration is parts availability. You won't find too many AK parts laying around at an abandoned police HQ or military base. You might however be lucky enough to find a few spare M16 parts though. The AK has a reputation as rugged and reliable and mostly that reputation is true. But it is made of metal and the rules of metal fatigue still apply. Abuse it enough and put enough rounds through it and something WILL break or wear out eventually.

Well said.

I'll stick with my suppressed AR for my SHTF rifle.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCsvyPRVgQ0&feature=related

(drunken, spitting slur) How's THISH for your scientific TEST?!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNAohtjG14c&feature=related

And no, I am not a producer or promoter of this stupid camera video. Do I know everything about all weapons? Absolutely not. I think that's why we're here, to learn. So stop being so rude to people just because they are posting something to start a lively discussion. Even though the topic has been beat to death, I know I for one learned something useful from this, and that is, in addition to what I learned above, that someone here who at least sounds like they know what they're talking about thinks 5.56 is not a natural caliber for aks,  so I should stick with the other calibers I'll probably be ok. Good to know!

Well if you absolutely must have a 5.56 AK, your best IMO are the following:

Robinson Arms' VEPR (but I don't believe they make them any more) - The VEPR is/was actually an RPK variant, as it was made on an RPK receiver. The RPK is Russia's light machine gun basically. It's a stamped receiver but substantially thicker sheet steel which means it's even more rugged than your standard AK and more accurate. The VEPR was/is made for Robinson Arms by Molot in Russia.

Bulgaria's Arsenal Inc. - VERY high quality AK's, made in USA under license from the parent company in Bulgaria. If you can, get a milled receiver. It's much more rugged and stable than a stamped sheet metal receiver and you can gain some accuracy from that.

Polish Tantal - again, very quality.

Saiga - true russian receiver but do not take standard AK mags. The Saiga guns are kalashnikov-based but are not exactly AK's.

Now, it's my understanding "true" AK's are banned from importation now so you'd have to find a parts kit for the Tantal and have someone put it together for you on a US-made receiver (and they do exist). Also you are limited to the amount of imported parts you can use. Too many foreign parts is a naughty idea and by BATF logic, they make the gun more likely to be used to commit crimes or acts of terrierism.


5.56 AK mags are a bit scarce. Some folks use 5.45x39 AK74 mags and modify them but they are still very touchy and require varying degrees of tweaking to get them GTG.

5.56 Chinese AK mags generally are not compatible with european 5.56 AK's, and vice versa.


All of this information is true to the best of my knowledge.



Again, is the AR15 all that bad? It's more expensive than an average AK (Arsenal's AK's are almost as expensive as a "basic" AR (Bushmaster, RRA, DPMS Stag, etc) but good luck with your magazines.

I think the AR is plenty reliable enough. Most of the bad rumors about the AR15/M16 are echoes from the Vietnam War and now, four decades later, most of those problems have been rectified. We right now are in the Golden Age of the AR platform. There are many makes and models to choose from. You can get all sorts of groovy aftermarket upgrades to modify it to any need you have, or transform a good AR into an incredible AR. Mags are cheap, plentiful, and diverse. And the AR has more accessories than a high-class call girl.

AK > AR = Stooge

Drop the gun rags and pick up a rifle.

IBTL

Everything has it's pro's and con's but that argument is just plain stupid.

BTW, I think you meant "rocking mag lock?"

What kind of mag fed weapons don't have a locking mag?

Quoted: Let's define what a true SHTF situation is? In America, your going to be at a disadvantage if you are relying on BLOC ammo. Your options for obtaining more ammo would be from scavenging the local gun store and hoping it hasn't been cleaned out. 0dds are good though it will be, and you will be SOL. Maybe you might find a police HQ that was abandoned. 20 pesos says they won't have any cases of BLOC ammo there. Maybe you'll get lucky and find a bit of 5.56. 5.56 is the caliber of america's rifle. So is .308 to a lesser degree. Those are your best bets for availability. Going out on raids with your buddies to take someone else's ammo stash would be a really bad idea. 100 pesos says they'll be on alert for something like that. Just like you would be. Scavenging is the best choice for resupply and it will be slim pickings. You'd have better odds of finding widely used ammo which is the standard issue caliber of your country's government. In the USA, that is 5.56/.223. Another consideration is parts availability. You won't find too many AK parts laying around at an abandoned police HQ or military base. You might however be lucky enough to find a few spare M16 parts though. The AK has a reputation as rugged and reliable and mostly that reputation is true. But it is made of metal and the rules of metal fatigue still apply. Abuse it enough and put enough rounds through it and something WILL break or wear out eventually.

America's true calibers are 30.06, .22 LR, and 12 Ga. If the SHTF, Any house that hunts will have ammo for you especially in remote areas. I agree the AR wins because it is the ammo your adversary will be using. Occasionally you will run into AK vermin.
But in all , they are on opposite sides of the rainbow.

I'm thinking the way to go, based on what you're suggesting, might be a custom build from an RPK receiver and some bulgarian 5.56 parts. But those are kind of hard to come by, so I would feel bad about actually making that build my "training" rifle and beating it up and really just having fun with it.

I think the second best course of action is a .223 saiga conversion, with krebs peep site, kns front site (crosshairs), and get rid of the "here I am" muzzle flash inducing break.

That's the sort of relatively cheap, I don't care if I muck this up version.

Then there's the KTR-08 from kreb's which looks absolutely awesome, it has a semi free floated barrel, etc.

The only problem with saiga builds is I'm losing the RPK receiver.

Why are 5.56 aks so bad again compared to 7.62 ones?

Quoted: Everything has it's pro's and con's but that argument is just plain stupid. BTW, I think you meant "rocking mag lock?" What kind of mag fed weapons don't have a locking mag?

Yes I meant rocking mag lock.

AK mags NEVER maalfunction....

Quoted: Why are 5.56 aks so bad again compared to 7.62 ones?

It's because of the differences in the geometry of calibers.

The 7.62x39 has an almost triangular look to it. The walls of the cartridge are very steep.

It's also much fatter on the rim end than 5.56.

This makes it easy for the bolt to strip the round from the mag and it makes feeding the round into the chamber & extracting the round from the chamber relatively easy.

And also, as a result, the AK doesnt need to be built for very tight tolerances.

With the 5.45x39, the same is pretty much true; steeply angled walls on the case with a fat ass.

The 5.56/.223 on the other hand has almost parallel walls by comparison. Tolerances must be more exact. On a precision instrument like the AR, that's great. On something built a bit looser, such as the AK, not so great.

Quoted: AK mags NEVER maalfunction.... i79.photobucket.com/albums/j151/charliedontsurf_photos/i6flg0.jpg

What this whole conversation reminds me of is a political debate...

Both parties dig up the worst s#!t they can find on the other party and defend against any s#!t used against them simply by digging up even MORE s#!t on the other guy.

If I want a gun that I can feed corrosive combloc s#!t as well as commercial grade ammo, doesn't mind a handful of dirt/sand/mud in the receiver, I can use as a baseball bat, a shovel, a walking cane, to cross a zipline, and can find a plentiful quantity of cheap replacement parts... I'd go AK...

If I want a precision rifle, that will function reliably as long as it's kept free internally of foreign grit, will allow me to hit centermass reliably at 500 yards, have plenty of commercial and military available in the US, not have to necessarily clean (unlike the AK after you shoot corrosive if you dont want a rust bucket in few days), and is considerably LIGHTER than most military firearms, I'll go AR.

Both guns have their pros/cons...

if I was in a third world country, I'd go AK because I may not be able to find many replacement parts for my AR there, I may not find a lot of AMMO for my AR there... but I can find plenty of AK's and parts for AK's and ammo for AK's...

if I was in America, I'd likely go AR seeing as it's a better performer, and I can find replacement parts easily enough if needed, and ammo is available at most any supermarket.

Also, that AK mag spring pic made me lol.

Actually watched the video that the OP linked.

That was a shitty mag change. I've seen vids of airsofters doing better than that.

And, suprise, the minute he puts the mag in properly he's back in action.

Quoted: Actually watched the video that the OP linked. That was a shitty mag change. I've seen vids of airsofters doing better than that. And, suprise, the minute he puts the mag in properly he's back in action.

Good point, I was probably a little fast to assume that guy knew what he was doing. But the ar definitely does take a bit more training to do it right.

That's all fine and dandy that the AK functioned with that muddy mag.  Wonder how accurate it was?  If it's any thing like most of the AK's I have fired, I'll stick with my AR!  I'm not all that impressed with the accuracy of the AK, it's reliable, and that's about all I can say for it.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=717866