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Posted: 10/26/2004 7:17:55 PM EDT
[#1]
Thread here from the past.
Pecos It aint about hanging a bayonet on it(although theres nothing wrong with that). Its about weither he recieved a substandard product and will it fail in the future? |
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Posted: 10/26/2004 7:31:22 PM EDT
[#2]
Sure it's about being able to hang a bayo. WTF is the matter with you guys? I am also concerned about the vortex and am aware of the problem with the version mentioned. Thanks alot for the link Fro. Very helpful. I'm sure that if I decide to sell it and tell potential buyers that a bayo won't fit over it, that they'll gladly pay full price. Yeah, right. Geez. 
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Posted: 10/26/2004 7:47:46 PM EDT
[#3]
What is the ID of your bayo ring and the OD of the Vortex? The bad Vortex's were from many years ago I seriously doubt that is the problem.
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Posted: 10/26/2004 8:08:22 PM EDT
[#4]
Roughly 22mm for both bayo ring and OD vortex. I have to eyeball it with a metric ruler but I'd say that is real close for both and that is with 2 different bayos. Colt Eickhorn-Solingen and an M9. It is close and I expect I could force it on but don't want to. Thanks Tweak. I was just thinking about IM'ing you about this. 
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Posted: 10/26/2004 9:25:01 PM EDT
[#5]
roughly isn't going to work man, if you work on enough ARs you gotta get a set of calipers.
 Bayo ring ID on my USGI (they'll never miss just one) M9 is .875. The OD of both my A2 and 3rd Gen (spiral cut) Vortex is 0.860 for .0075" a side. 22mm=.866" |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 3:11:09 AM EDT
[#6]
How did I know you were going to say that? Best I could do on short notice. I will get a mic and some calipers one fo these days. Where I live there is not a great selection of anything but I was just reading here a couple of days ago and people rec Starrets and Mitayumo(something like that).
Fact is it is very close and as I said I could get it on but I would have to apply a fair amount of force. I'd be tempted to just do that but it will damage the finish pretty quickly I expect. SAW already told me that they are wider at the prongs(they checked and all of them were) and that it will not fit a bayo. Of course when I ordered they told me it would 
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Posted: 10/27/2004 3:35:51 AM EDT
[#7]
Maybe cuz I say it a lot? Yeah, odd about SAW, they may have just been repeating what they were told by the manuf. Doubt that their LE clients use the bayo feature often. |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 4:11:47 AM EDT
[#8]
OT- I got lucky. Boeing has a surplus sales, I got a set of mics for 10 bucks!
They have weird hours, but if I make it down there again, I will pick up an extra set or 3 and let ya know. |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 4:25:40 AM EDT
[#9]
Just send it back and go to your CC company. This is SAW's problem not yours. I'd call SAW and tell them what you are doing and then send the upper back with insurance and make them sign for it. Then call your CC company and report it.
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Posted: 10/27/2004 4:53:29 AM EDT
[#10]
-------------------- Absolutely correct! That was indeed a small lot from several years ago that had this problem. With the advent of the G6A1 and now, the G6A2 design there have been absolutely no reports of tines openning up. With the consgtant and incfreasing level of military orders, both US and FMS for the latest suppressor-capable design, to include orders for the M-14 OEM/M-14SE and M-240 and M-249, it is quite clear that Smith Ent has a very successful design. I've them on 9.5" uppers, M-14s and SAWs for quite some time and their functionaility is beyond reproach. |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 5:58:24 AM EDT
[#11]
Pix of drjarhead's issue
#1  #2  #3  #4  and #5 
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Posted: 10/27/2004 6:45:46 AM EDT
[#12]
I read a little bit of this tread but I need some info on a 14.5 with the new 5 port phantom FH. What bayonets will fit on them? M9?
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Posted: 10/27/2004 7:11:25 AM EDT
[#13]
Are you sure that's really a Vortex? The ports are straight and there are no flats for a wrench to tighten it. Also it looks like the rear of the ports was drilled our and is slightly larger than the port is wide...maybe it's a knock off, which is why it doesn't fit. I've never heard of a bayonet NOT fitting a real Vortex.
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Posted: 10/27/2004 8:09:56 AM EDT
[#14]
That does NOT look like any recent Vortex I know of. It does look like some gun show knock-offs I've seen. All current Vortex FH's have flats on them. Check HERE on the Smith Enterprise web site for pictures of their current models. BTW, Smith recommends the FH be mounted with NO crush or peel washer of any kind. Looks like you have one on yours. Your problem is you have a bogus FH. Get your money back. |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 8:11:26 AM EDT
[#15]
Yes it will. Get one with the comp bottom to eliminate dust sig, is my advice. Phantom 5C2? Go to the Yankee hill web site. They sell them. |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 8:13:13 AM EDT
[#16]
Wondered about the authenticity of this one myself but they advertise it as a vortex. I will get back on that...
Also told me it is the same one the .mil uses....  Smith Enterprises emailed me back and said that they would take care of it whether it is a vortex or not. Incredible if true but if it is not a vortex I don't want to unload it on them. Very impressive, IMO. |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 1:30:58 PM EDT
[#17]
Spoke with someone at Smith Enterprise. Pretty damn interesting. Doesn't sound like a vortex as some of you have already stated. I was suspicious also due to the lack of flats but hey, design changes occur all the time . We'll see though. I will talk to Ron Smith tomorrow about it and see what they can do to help me out. If they can pull the FH and replace without damage I will ship it to them I imagine. Also waiting on ADCO to get back with the email I sent them last night.
Pretty damn irritating all the way around and I expected better from SAW but maybe that is just a lesson hard earned. They haven't even called back or contacted me so I expect it is just the big blow off. I've spent a fair sum with them in the last year or two. Guess they have so many people beating down the door that they don't need return biz. What can I say, I am a Colt junkie. Will have to find somewhere else to get parts. It is rather astounding who Colt is using for distribution, I wish they'd let me in on the action, I'd keep you guys supplied with a minmal mark up just to do it but it doesn't really seem like Colt is too interested in us lowly civilians anyhow. Maybe that'll change in time. Anyway, thanks for all the input and help guys. Even you proban Marines  .I'll keep you guys posted on how this all goes down. FWIW, Smith Enterprise will perm attrach FHs for you if you ship them your uppers and I know some of the rest of you are looking at that option. Semper Fi ETA: THANKS REDFISHER!!!! |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 1:40:45 PM EDT
[#18]
Im assuming this comment was aimed at me. Couldn't be further from the truth, but you certainly can't teach old dogs new tricks.  Glad you got it figured out though.SAW is not our friend. |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 2:11:54 PM EDT
[#19]
Hell yeah, you and a couple of others, I think! If you are really an ex-jarhead you should've gottn used to a little crap now and then.
Well, I guess maybe I am an old dog thugh I don't think of myself that way. 
That would seem to be the case but why do you say so? |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 2:17:26 PM EDT
[#20]
DR, do a search of SAW. He basically told everyone here that he could care less about AR15.com or our business. Here's a video Im sure you've seen before. All in fun.
www.fuserservices.com/bayonet.wmv |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 2:31:17 PM EDT
[#21]
LOL! Always wondered what a drive by bayoneting looked like. Heard some pretty interesting things today but I ain't repeating them... |
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Posted: 10/27/2004 11:04:27 PM EDT
[#22]
drjarhead, It took them nearly a month to get me an electonic invoice for a part not listed on their site. This with multiple phone calls and emails. They had the best price, I wsn't in a hurry, and I knew they were good for it. It got done. When Tina replied she told me that their correspondence has quadrupled since the ban went down. Give them some time to sort it out. |
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Posted: 10/28/2004 12:23:36 AM EDT
[#23]
I would expect that if that is not really a Vortex the people who make the Vortex should be pissed to learn that a company is making money on their name.
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Posted: 10/28/2004 2:38:11 AM EDT
[#24]
That is not a vortex, and it looks like a poor copy too boot. Send the fucking thing back and deal with the CC company. SAW deserves this for false advertising!
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Posted: 10/28/2004 3:18:23 AM EDT
[#25]
drjarhead-
I've been watching your thread for quite a while. Thanks, a lot of good info has come to light. Unfortunately it has brought upon some doubts about my own vortex FH. I bought one from Bushmaster about seven years ago. Is it one of the bad ones? The tines do bend somewhat easily. I remember letting my rifle fall resting against a wall where it slid down and smacked against the wainscoting (kickboard) on the way down. That was enough to bend one of the times to the point where it almost touched the other three. At the time I just cussed at myself bent it back and assumed it was normal. Been extra careful not to drop it anymore. I know for sure that a bayo will not fit over the tines on mine, I'll have to remove it to try and see if one fits over the base. I guess it's time to contact the folks at Smith Enterprises. Please keep us posted on your results. |
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Posted: 10/28/2004 7:51:14 AM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 10/28/2004 7:52:47 AM EDT
[#27]
I agree |
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Posted: 10/28/2004 7:57:28 AM EDT
[#28]
We've had a couple of emails, a phone ocnverstaion and I had a message last night saying they would take it back for 25%. I wish I could make $300 everytime I sent the same piece around the country. What a money making proposition that would be. I will either have someone else redo or go thru my CC Co. They clearly have no intent of making this right. I even asked for a price to redo with a new bbl and phantom if I sent it. Apparently they just want to be done with this and collect their money. I really have to wonder, though, why ANYONE would perm affix one of these without first seeing if a bayo would slide over. WTF? |
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Posted: 10/28/2004 7:59:11 AM EDT
[#29]
Sounds like junk to me. Sorry. Is it perm? If not, it is an easy fix. ETA: Okay, sounds like yours is not permanent. I'd just call Smith Enterprise and order one. Or do a 5C2 Phantom. I'll keep you guys posted on what Smith enterprises says and the resto f the saga. |
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Posted: 10/28/2004 8:03:15 AM EDT
[#30]
Did you already get yours?? Okay, I read your other thread. No you didn't. Run Forest, run! 
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Posted: 10/28/2004 8:33:42 AM EDT
[#31]
Actually they seemed relatively amused and I go the impression there have been similar, if not the same, issues ongoing. |
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Posted: 10/28/2004 8:38:58 AM EDT
[#32]
It seems to me that SAW did not purchase these "Vortex" hiders from Smith Industries. At the very least, they've falsely advertised the product.
Personally, I'd shove it up their third point of contact sideways and get my money back through my CC company. So this is how Colt allows their dealers to behave huh? I'm glad I ain't into Colts. |
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Posted: 10/28/2004 8:53:27 AM EDT
[#33]
I hear ya. I am into Colts, though. Like I said, RGUNS or them? WTF? You'd think Colt would expect a little more integrity, and require customer service standards, from their distributors. |
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Posted: 10/28/2004 9:32:38 AM EDT
[#34]
Frankly, the attitude of SAW, and the amount of $$ at stake would lead me to dig my heels in and say no fucking way are you going to do this. You stated that this item would perform as promised, it did not, fix it NOW, or take it back with no 25% charge. If they refuse, let the CC company deal with it. They (whoever they have an acct with) will not like a charge back on them. SAW has a real shitty attitude and you should give it back to them. I would, and not being a smartass, I just don't have that kind of money laying around to allow me to take a hit like that laying down. I feel your pain, and hope you can get this worked out.
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Posted: 10/28/2004 9:48:39 AM EDT
[#35]
I agree. I've got the money but I didn't get to where I am by letting people fuck me over. I'm waiting to see what Ron Smith from Smith Enterprise has to say. I've mellowed a little over the years and have learned to develop a modicum of patience and pragmatism. We'll see. They really do deserve it though, don't they? 
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Posted: 10/28/2004 10:42:03 AM EDT
[#36]
Return it ASAP and get your credit card co. involved. Ken Elmore won't do shit for you once he hears your your experience and how it was posted on ARFCOM.
He selling cheap ass knockoffs at above premium prices. This is what you get for being a colt snob.
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Posted: 10/28/2004 10:47:59 AM EDT
[#37]
LMAO. Guilty as charged, officer! Hey, I've got a bushy and had a RRA which I sold. Colt is a better rifle, period. I do like my bushy but it had a few issues...I'd go with a RRA if they built what I wanted but they don't. Colts are top notch rifles, simple as that. |
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Posted: 10/28/2004 11:52:38 AM EDT
[#38]
Comparison pics of a vortex with what drjarhead has - not even close....  and even if it were a real vortex, I'd send it back for him screwing up the installation - you don't put a crush washer behind a vortex - aisde from the fact that there is nothing to time, it reduces the effectiveness of the vortex as a flash hider. |
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Posted: 10/28/2004 2:09:02 PM EDT
[#39]
Nice pics, Engineer.
I also wondered about the washer when I saw it but figured while unnecessary (at that point I still took at face value that it was a "real" Vortex) it was probably ok. The lack of flats bothered me also but at that point I figured it was a design change. Haven't heard back from Ron Smith.... CC charge back is looking like my only option. Not so bad I guess. If there is some other little surprise then I'd be screwed and couldn't get my money back. |
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Posted: 10/28/2004 7:18:21 PM EDT
[#40]
Off the topic, but still...
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Posted: 10/28/2004 8:19:33 PM EDT
[#41]
It's pretty easy to deduce they stuck something in the tines and cranked down on it. Are there round/flat spots on the flash hider that corroborate this?
Talk to you CC company first and see what they say. There is no way I would keep it with what is seemingly more and more likey a knock-off vortex along with the half-ass installation job. |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 12:30:13 AM EDT
[#42]
That sucks. I'm surprised SAW would do that kind of work; It sounds like the problems you hear about on the AK Discussions board. At least you got your stuff back. But I'm NOT at all surprised about their response to you afterwards. Would he pull this on a LE/Govt. customer?
I'm surprised even more that Smith Enterprises is interested in the part you received. Maybe they want to examine a possible counterfeit item, or maybe it really was a bad part they sent to SAW by mistake (which would get SAW off the hook). I've seen crazy Camelbak hybrids that came in a group govt. purchase, and their customer service insisted that they sent us what we saw on their website. When photos were emailed to them of what their factory sent us, the rep was shocked and admitted, "Oh no, not again! Those ones weren't supposed to be shipped out- our mistake, ship them back at our cost." Do keep us posted. |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 5:50:17 AM EDT
[#43]
Actually, I wish I hadn't
Well, they are in for a surprise...
No, I think they are interested in protecting their reputation. I think. I called several times yesterday and tried to talk to Ron, as he asked me to in his email, and eventually left my phone number. Nothing so far. We'll see. Today is my personal deadline for calling my CC Co. |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 7:23:54 AM EDT
[#44]
You guys have got to understand that Smith Enterprise is extremely busy with government work at this time and as much as it may hurt, individual retail convedrnes are not the priority -- support to Warfighters are what takes priority.
BTW, the interest Smith has in the flash hider depicted above has everything to do with protecting their patents, controlling counterfeiters and Smith's solid reputation. The flash hider depictd on the left is clearly neither a G4, G5 unit. The unit on the right is the newest G6A2. |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 8:09:17 AM EDT
[#45]
I understand completely. No slam on Smith Enterprise or Ron smith at all. If I get another upper I will try to send it to them for perm vortex attach. Actually I've got a spare LMT 14.5" upper here but I picked up 3 Colt lowers and want it to be all Colt. I do really like Colt gear. Wish they made it a little easier for us to get and made sure that their distributors provided better service. |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 8:17:13 AM EDT
[#46]
I talked to Tina at SAW yest- she said she "wasn't sure" if the vortexes they sell are REAL vortexes fron smith's or not but they had theirs made "special for premanent attachment to 14.5" barrels with the tines straight". Supposedly they are as efficient at supressing flash as the "real" ones. What else would she say though, eh?
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Posted: 10/29/2004 8:46:53 AM EDT
[#47]
Whoever produced them for SAW made a little mistake then, didn't they? So did SAW when they failed to check them before or during installation. Thusly, they left themselves and their customers in a predicament. There really is no other reason to go with a perm FH on a 14.5" bbl than to be able to utilize a bayo. The 1" difference is of no consequence other than that. Plain and simple. I know it, you know it, they know it, everyone here knows it. Run tomesd, run!
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Posted: 10/29/2004 9:24:13 AM EDT
[#48]
That whole line of reasoning would make me want to run far, far away. How can you not know if the product you are selling is a real or not? Sounds like they know but just don't want to admit it. There's a reason most of us don't go to the local gunshows to buy one of those $10 "made special" vortexes with the straight tines that are "just as good" as the real ones. |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 11:44:26 AM EDT
[#49]
Unfortunately I can't run. The only thing I can hope for is the FS to be the greatest POS ever made.
Holding on to all hope- Are we totally screwed or is there slight hope that SAW has a decent FS here and it won't suck complete ass, only a little ass? |
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Posted: 10/29/2004 12:03:54 PM EDT
[#50]
Well, if you don't know what I know about that set up, you might be in a big surprise some day. |
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