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Posted: 10/20/2003 9:09:23 PM EDT
[#1]
Jesus guys, ya all need to relax. If this guy only likes to go to the range with his AR and this guy likes to use his AR for hunting and this other guy would never use his AR for anything that couldn't be consider "tactical" then so be it. Don't diss someone because they disagree with your point of view. I really don't see the point of telling someone it's not OK to have FUN with your AR. Why NOT? It's a tool, but it's a FUN tool. But hey, if you have to be serious ALL the time then that's fine to. I wouldn't hang out with you but I'm sure there would be other like minded people that would. We are all in the same boat here people. We all like/need firearms for one reason or another and there are people that want to take those rights from us. Fighting among ourselves is not the solution.
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Posted: 10/20/2003 9:12:27 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Dev, I don't know much about handguns, but I know that there is a plethora of calibers (including 5.56mm), and many hollow-point bullets which are designed for maximum tissue damage, so I am confused why you say that the 5.56 from the AR15 is more devastating than any handgun round. now im going to go on a small non-emotional rant explaining myself: if the ar15 were the perfect close range weapon, why did they design SMG's? A rifle round will always be more devastating than a pistol round. See the ammo faq for starters. Why did they design SMG? Why did they design .22 long rifle? If they can make it they will. MP5's and the like are being replaced by short bbl'd ar 5.56mm weapons for this role more and more as people understand wound ballistics more. 5.56mm fragments! No pistol round expanding or not will perform as well. It is far easier to aim a 10.5" AR accurately than any pistol. Especially with training on both. Longer sight frame=better aim! |
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Posted: 10/20/2003 9:17:47 PM EDT
[#3]
[/quote] There are plenty of justifications for gun rights - plenty - without reference to the 2nd Amendment. Besides, only Americans have the 2nd Amendment; does this mean only Americans have the right to bear arms? [/quote] Only Americans, as you call us, are governed by the Constitution so whats your point? |
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Posted: 10/20/2003 9:27:49 PM EDT
[#4]
Stuh, the 5.56 is a good choice for CQB because it exhibits better terminal performance (wound potential) than any handgun or subgun.
The icing on the cake is that it does this with far less risk of overpenetration through interior walls than a handgun or subgun. At the moment I rely on a handgun and a shotgun for defensive use in my home. As soon as I'm satisfied with my proficiency I will use my Colt M4 carbine instead of the shotgun. If I lived alone or didn't have neighbors in the line of my most likely fire lane I would probably stick to the shotgun. My shotgun is loaded with a neutered round due to my fear of overpenetration. if you have an opponent in your house, you are going to be able to aim faster, be more limber, and have a better chance of getting a shot off if they are really close to you than you will with a heavy long rifle that was designed for outdoor use. My seven pound M4 carbine is just as handy as my seven pound Benelli shotgun. It has much better sights too. If I remember correctly don't you have a fullsized 20" Bushmaster? For what it's worth I wouldn't task my fullsize ARs in a home defensive role either, but my carbine is much smaller and handier. |
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Posted: 10/20/2003 9:41:49 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: yeah, what he said. skip the crane, go Vltor or Magpul. They are making stocks with spare battery storage like the Crane? |
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Posted: 10/20/2003 9:43:11 PM EDT
[#6]
CJan_NH: what about 5.56 makes it more wounding? if this is true, then why don't they use it in handguns? and off the top of my head, doesn't the five-seven use 5.7mm...which is about the same...but that is made for penetration of body armor, which is the opposite purpose?
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Posted: 10/20/2003 10:23:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Quoted: yeah, what he said. skip the crane, go Vltor or Magpul. They are making stocks with spare battery storage like the Crane? Not yet but its on the "things to do list" We wont have all the accessories and add on stocks for at least 2 more years. |
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Posted: 10/20/2003 10:24:20 PM EDT
[#8]
Just to stay on topic, I would not put anything made for an airsoft on my carbine. Airsoft parts are not made for a firearm and therefore have no usefullness on a weapon.
I do enjoy shooting my AR so I can see why someone would call it thier toy. The first thing I was told by my family when they tought my about firearms was "A gun is not a toy." It was a poor chioce of word to call it a toy, also, I keep my AR as a personal protection carbine, not simply as a killing machine. I am not living an NWA song. Although a firearm may not serve as much more than a weapon, people like myself keep it for more that that. All and all, every firearm is a machine that has the potential for ending one's life. The firearm commands much respect for whatever your use for it is. |
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Posted: 10/20/2003 10:30:02 PM EDT
[#9]
I have fun with my firearms too but some people seem to have an aversion to what stopping people with a firearm means. I guess I can get abbrasive when I see people take firearms so lightly and for that, I am sorry. But make no mistake whether we are talking defense of family, property or stopping tyranny that means killing people. You dont pull a gun on an intruder to scare them when your not willing to use it, for example. I know people who own guns for the sole purpose of "scarring away" bad people. Better to not own a firearm at that point as far as I am concerned.
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Posted: 10/21/2003 4:12:50 AM EDT
[#10]
Stuh
5.56 is a little large for your average pistol... The five seven is not an effective man stopper as the ammunition is too underpowered to even represent 1/3 of what the 5.56 is capable of. |
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Posted: 10/21/2003 6:40:16 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Quoted: yeah, what he said. skip the crane, go Vltor or Magpul. They are making stocks with spare battery storage like the Crane? The Vltors have battery compartments but the Magpuls do not...YET. |
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Posted: 10/21/2003 5:50:35 PM EDT
[#12]
Man it took a while, but this thread sure has taken off! As a "for the record" type post, yeah, the Vltor stocks have battery sotrage just like the Crane. It also has the same type cheek weld. Im wondering what it was about the Crane the original poster liked that he did not find in the Vltor?
Also, 5.56 in a handgun will not produce sufficient volocity for the ammo to do what it has to do. The 5.5 is an AWESOME round, even in CQB, for all the reasons stated by those who are promoting it. BUT(!) it requires sufficient volocity to do that. An AR handgun, or other handgun that fires 5.56 ammo will not allow the round to build up sufficient volocity for it to be a good choice as a handgun round. Without velocity, you are making .22 cal holes. No good. Put it in a rifle, even a short barrel rifle, with say a 10.5" or 11.5" barrel, and you have sufficient volocity to have the round do what it does best at least for common indoor distances. Put it in a 14.5" or 16" carbine and it will do it out to common urban distances indoor or out. |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 9:20:56 AM EDT
[#13]
New-AR-Guy, I can't speak for the other guy, but I know what I don't like about the Crane stock...
You have to pay $500 for a stock that's about as durable as most of these Airsoft stocks, and is proven to be prone to breakage. Like I mentioned in the other post about this, APEX makes a copy that's identical in all respects except for the workmanship. In that aspect, it is very superior to the original. -Cap'n |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 11:59:19 AM EDT
[#14]
I've seen pictures taken less than a month ago and it shows SEALS still using the real Crane stock. If they are so prone to breakage, why are SPEC Ops Operators still in combat with them? Where did the "prone to breakage" story come from? Mine actually looks MORE robust than any regular collapsing stock that I've seen.
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Posted: 10/22/2003 12:20:17 PM EDT
[#15]
I am NOT trying to be a smart-ass. But are there many on this site who have these "airsofts"? What is an "airsoft"? Is it the air driven toy gun? And why would you spend money on these?
Honestly, I am NOT trying to piss anyone off. Just looking for a rational explaination. I saw on the picture thread a "SMGLee" with a beautiful M4 with the ARMS SIR and then I read its an "airsoft"? I don't get it... |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 1:47:16 PM EDT
[#16]
Ok where can you buy a APEX crane copy??
FREE Quoted: New-AR-Guy, I can't speak for the other guy, but I know what I don't like about the Crane stock... You have to pay $500 for a stock that's about as durable as most of these Airsoft stocks, and is proven to be prone to breakage. Like I mentioned in the other post about this, APEX makes a copy that's identical in all respects except for the workmanship. In that aspect, it is very superior to the original. -Cap'n |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 2:10:40 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: I have fun with my firearms too but some people seem to have an aversion to what stopping people with a firearm means. I guess I can get abbrasive when I see people take firearms so lightly and for that, I am sorry. But make no mistake whether we are talking defense of family, property or stopping tyranny that means killing people. You dont pull a gun on an intruder to scare them when your not willing to use it, for example. I know people who own guns for the sole purpose of "scarring away" bad people. Better to not own a firearm at that point as far as I am concerned. I couldn't of said it better myself.[banana] |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 5:32:05 PM EDT
[#18]
Dinger, ask around, I'm sure there are several people around here that will give you firsthand knowledge.
The locking area on my stock failed in short order after I made the $500 purchase... And yes, I'm sure it was the real deal, as this was before all of these copies even came close to hitting the market. I've been trying to locate another one for my "pretty" gun that doesn't see much usage, but I'm not going to dump another $500 on one, and I'm sure as hell never going to trust my life on one. I'm back to using a VLTOR on my working gun, and I might end up getting one of the APEX copies after I get some other parts that I need. A friend of mine got one last Friday, I think he paid $250 or so for it... I'll ask him where he got it. Honestly, I can say that comparing it to my old E-Stock, the Crane paled in comparison. I'd much prefer a VLTOR or a MagPul stock to the "real-deal" at this time. -Cap'n |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 5:49:03 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: New-AR-Guy, I can't speak for the other guy, but I know what I don't like about the Crane stock... You have to pay $500 for a stock that's about as durable as most of these Airsoft stocks, and is proven to be prone to breakage. Like I mentioned in the other post about this, APEX makes a copy that's identical in all respects except for the workmanship. In that aspect, it is very superior to the original. -Cap'n I didnt mean to ask what he didnt like about the Crane. If I read correctly, he stated he wants the real Crane and when people suggested the Vltor, he said he saw a Vltor and found it didnt meet his needs. I was wondering what he saw in the Crane stock that he did not see in the Vltor. Im still wondering? |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 6:14:49 PM EDT
[#20]
So was there that much difference between thr Apex and the real crane stock?
Thanks FREE Quoted: Dinger, ask around, I'm sure there are several people around here that will give you firsthand knowledge. The locking area on my stock failed in short order after I made the $500 purchase... And yes, I'm sure it was the real deal, as this was before all of these copies even came close to hitting the market. I've been trying to locate another one for my "pretty" gun that doesn't see much usage, but I'm not going to dump another $500 on one, and I'm sure as hell never going to trust my life on one. I'm back to using a VLTOR on my working gun, and I might end up getting one of the APEX copies after I get some other parts that I need. A friend of mine got one last Friday, I think he paid $250 or so for it... I'll ask him where he got it. Honestly, I can say that comparing it to my old E-Stock, the Crane paled in comparison. I'd much prefer a VLTOR or a MagPul stock to the "real-deal" at this time. -Cap'n |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 6:22:32 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: I am NOT trying to be a smart-ass. But are there many on this site who have these "airsofts"? What is an "airsoft"? Is it the air driven toy gun? And why would you spend money on these? Honestly, I am NOT trying to piss anyone off. Just looking for a rational explaination. I saw on the picture thread a "SMGLee" with a beautiful M4 with the ARMS SIR and then I read its an "airsoft"? I don't get it... Some people use them for training, some use them as toys and all SMGLees stuff is real, that was a joke about it being airsoft. I will admit I wanted to give my nephew a pair of fullauto Mac10 Airsofts just so I could borrow one to shoot stray cats that meow outside my door at night. [devil] |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 6:56:09 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: If I read correctly, he stated he wants the real Crane and when people suggested the Vltor, he said he saw a Vltor and found it didnt meet his needs. I was wondering what he saw in the Crane stock that he did not see in the Vltor. Im still wondering? I was wondering that also. In my not so honest opinion, the Vltor can do everything a Crane can do but ten times better, and at a fraction of the cost. you could almost have two magpul's at the cost of one crane |
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Posted: 10/22/2003 9:38:09 PM EDT
[#23]
New-AR-guy, sorry I didn't read into that very well, hehe.
FreeFall, the latch assembly wasn't loose, as with the crane, and the molding was way better done. My crane looked like the mold was almost dead by the time my stock was turned out. The Apex unit was very clean, tight fitting, and has held up fine. We did a 3' drop test 5 or 6 times, and the latch held up really well. I still prefer the VLTOR, but I have to admit, I like the look and feel of the crane. I'll probably wait for the improved LMT unit to debut to the public before I buy another one. -Cap'n |
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Posted: 10/23/2003 1:34:54 PM EDT
[#24]
Well it sounds good but where can you buy this Apex Crane repro stock??
FREE Quoted: New-AR-guy, sorry I didn't read into that very well, hehe. FreeFall, the latch assembly wasn't loose, as with the crane, and the molding was way better done. My crane looked like the mold was almost dead by the time my stock was turned out. The Apex unit was very clean, tight fitting, and has held up fine. We did a 3' drop test 5 or 6 times, and the latch held up really well. I still prefer the VLTOR, but I have to admit, I like the look and feel of the crane. I'll probably wait for the improved LMT unit to debut to the public before I buy another one. -Cap'n |
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Posted: 10/23/2003 2:47:01 PM EDT
[#25]
if it ain't real its is memorex!
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Posted: 10/23/2003 6:07:20 PM EDT
[#26]
Freefall, I'll get the info very soon, promise :-) The friend that has it is out of town until tomorrow night, so I'll ask him them. I'll toss it your way in a PM. You'll understand why when you get it, hehe.
-Cap'n |
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Posted: 10/23/2003 6:08:46 PM EDT
[#27]
Thanks, FREE
Quoted: Freefall, I'll get the info very soon, promise :-) The friend that has it is out of town until tomorrow night, so I'll ask him them. I'll toss it your way in a PM. You'll understand why when you get it, hehe. -Cap'n |
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