So in other words you do understand that the 4150 barrel steel will better handle higher rates of full auto fire than 4140. So as miniscule as that may be when one translates it to use in a semi auto rifle, the advantage would still be there after rapid firing a semi auto AR.

Similar to what most folks say when they argue this issue, Troy (a pretty well respected member of this forum) said the following:

"About the barrel steel: the thinner the barrel is, the more important the steel becomes. 4150 retains its structural strenth at higher temperatures, meaning it allows you to put more rounds through the rifle before the barrel heats up to the point where major accuracy problems begin to occur."

Minor as that may sound, it does still place the 4150 as being a more forgiving steel when full auto or rapid firing is done.
So if someone is for fun shooting very rapid fire with their AR, and then decides to see if they can still put a few well placed shots down range, the 4150 barrel will usually fair better.  

Why choose the 4140 over the 4150? Probably because 4140 is less expensive steel, maybe it's a bit easier to mill steel, maybe it's easier to access on the market, or maybe there are other reasons. Whatever the reason, I see no gimmick with a company like Bushmaster using the same barrel material that is used to manufacture M16/M4 barrels (which the AR's are very closely based on).

LOL.......... but hey, buy what you want  


As for Bushmaster 1 turn in 7" chrome lined barrels, they did indeed offer these as a special order option, but maybe they have stopped. The 1 in 7 barrels were usually limited special order items for them, and they even offered limited batches of complete guns using these barrels. They don't need to ask an outside vendor to set-up for this, since their barrels are milled and chrome lined in house. If your interested in one of these barrels, call them and ask them if they are still offering this option. Forgive me if they no longer are  

Uh, that aircraft/canopy comparison is a bit flawed. Consider this - two F-16s approacing each other at around 750 knots ( for an energy flight/fight ). That makes for a closure rate of over 1400 knots. This precaution exists for that reason, although at 1400 knots, such an impact probably would be fatal anyways.

Anywho, this is my take on it. 4140 steel is fine. The difference is negligible. 4150 has it's advantages and its faults, as does 4140.

Pick what you wish, and you will be satisified with it. I doubt ANYONE here has ever completely ruined two of these barrels side-by-side and noticed which one failed or sagged first.

Personal preference.

WOW, did this thread ever kick off an amazing bunch of horsesh-t.

First of all, the carbon content of steel cannot be reasonably compared to flying birds hitting a windshield, or the value of gold alloy, or mom's open faced egg salad sandwiches, etc., so give it a rest already.  Hoo baby.  Talk about reaching.

Second, the carbon content of steel is very, very small.  Like 1/3 of a percent.  So a change of 1/10 of a percent is actually an increase of about one third.  Whether or not it is essential to a good barrel is something you need to actually test, as opposed to coming up with a bunch of fancy theories.  It doesn't sound like it makes much difference (but the army did spec it out  that way).

Third, the mumbo-jumbo that the sales rep quoted is typical manufacturer BS.  If they shoved a dog turd into your mouth, you can be certain that they would come up with a very sweet sounding explanation about how dog turds are actually more nutritous than ground beef.  What is the guy going to say?  That his barrels suck ass?

Fourth, ANY of the quality makes of AR15s is going to be perfectly fine for your needs.  I recently bought a 20" flattop bushmaster from AIM surplus for $770 including the handle.  It is excellent in every way.  It seemed like the best value all-around at the time.  Here's the link:  http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/XM15_E2S_20__A3_Heavy_Bbl_Rifle.html

Should I have got a different brand?  Who knows?  Nobody ever complains about the big name rifles, just the crappy off-brands.

So go buy a name brand rifle.  If you think you need to buy an Armalite for some reason, I would say you're kidding yourself.

 The barrels on my Armalite rifles are chromelined 4140 steel. Armalite states that they double lap their chrome barrels and triple lap their SS barrels. This in my opinion gives me the best blend of accuracy, corrosion resistance, reliability, and longevity in a rifle barrel of this type.  My 5 shot groups seem to support this. I also shoot IDPA 3 gun matches and I feel this gives me an edge in the accuracy dept. This is my .02, and I realize that there are more knowledgeable people on this forum than myself. I just want the potential buyer to know that the 4150, 4140 debate should not disuade them from buying a top of the line firearm from a company such as Armalite.

-99 has a point.  Sell someone the best oil in the world and prove it.  Most likely he'll be happy.  Sell it to 100 people and 10 of them are going to want to put an 'additive' snake oil in it.

My point wasn't that there are no people who'll buy 4150.  Obviously there are.

Just like I knew it would be.................... folks coming in and trying to convince the world that the military using 4150 steel for their barrels is not at all something to consider. That other countries may or may not do it with their X Y or Z weapon models, so why should "WE" need it with our "AMERICAN" designed AR's that are based on the "AMERICAN" made and designed M16. That the advantage is so small, that we should just go with the ever so slightly less than steel.

In the end, when push comes to shove, when given a choice between buying 4150 chrome lined steel or 4140 chrome lined steel, most will buy the 4150 choice. And again, Bushmasters sales numbers does not hurt that theory at all, being they hold the number 1 spot in AR sales. Maybe Armalite can learn something from that


Bushmaster goes to the lengths to use the same specified steel used in military barrels, and in doing so, they should not be considered a gimmick company. They could probably just as easily purchase 4140 barrel blanks, mill them, and chrome line all of their civilian designated barrels. This would probably save them a little bit of money per barrel, which in the long run could give a nice boost to their bottom line. Nope, they instead choose to use the proper designated US military M16 barrel steel, and still manage to sell their guns at a better price than those selling their guns using substitute barrel steeel    

Nuff said............... buy what you want, and enjoy.

 

It's true, none of the civilian AR's are true mil-spec (a clever and overly used term that "IS" commonly used as a selling ploy). However, it is also true that the military contracts call for using 4150 steel for making the M16/M4 barrels, which Bushmaster uses in making most of their civilian barrels, while Armalite does not.

What's this about Bushmaster not being a DOD supplier?............. Bushmaster "IS" a Government contractor.
I recently stumbled upon some Department of Defense website records that showed as recently as the year 2000 that Bushmaster supplied the DOD with product. The DOD document had the product heading for the US Army. This was actual US Government contract information on the actual DOD website, not just an AR company stating it on their own. With that said, Bushmaster has also stated it themselves. Here is just one way they word it on their website:
"We are a U.S. Government Defense Contractor"
I say that's a pretty clear statement, leaving no room for wiggle
And I guess you believe that Bushmaster supplying the Department of Energy (DOE) with rifles under contract was a farse as well? LOL!

Hope this clears your mistake

Since Bushmaster is the current leader in civilian AR sales, they tend to take a lot of hits. Since Colt is second in civilian AR sales (former number 1 leader), and has such a prestigous Government contract history, they also receive large blows (mostly undeserved). I guess this pattern of knocking the kings on the block is to be expected.  

Quoted: Quoted: Third, the mumbo-jumbo that the sales rep quoted is typical manufacturer BS.  If they shoved a dog turd into your mouth, you can be certain that they would come up with a very sweet sounding explanation about how dog turds are actually more nutritous than ground beef.  What is the guy going to say?  That his barrels suck ass? Except that it's not from a person in their company......just simple facts about the steels.

I'm just saying that talk is cheap, especially if it comes from a manufacturer.  The guys using Armalite barrels don't seem to be having any problems, which is a lot more valuable info than a bunch of hot air.

Whenever I buy a new product, I usually play it safe and buy a quality brand.  I don't see how you can go wrong buying an A, B, or C gun.  This bickering between the ABC owners is a little silly when you consider the ultra high quality of the products.  The cost difference between the brands also doesn't matter when you spread the difference over the life span of the gun.  

Buy ABC & you can't go wrong.  (Although I do find the Colt snobbery a little annoying).

I own an Armalite A2 20incher with chrome. I love the rifle. I also like RRA and Bushmaster. Colt is iffy because the quality of their 1911 went way down after 1996. I think poor quality is plaqing the whole company (they are going bank-rupt again). Anyway, the main reason I bought the Armalite is because of the LIFETIME WARRANTY!!!!! Warranties kick ass!!!

Nobody needs flash hiders.
Nobody needs bayonet lugs.

These are not the 'droids you're looking for.

"Milspec currently calls for 1:7 barrels....still haven't answered where Bushie offers those, in stock. You keep harping on MILSPEC, but now claim to know that is is but ANOTHER marketing ploy."

Oh come on! Your telling me that Armalite does not use marketing ploys! How about the many times they have tried to lead folks to believe that they are the same Armalite of the original AR10 and AR15 design? They get the tradename rights to some deceased firm, and then grandstand about how "THEY" were the first at this and that............. PLEASE! Talk about stretching the truth a bit......... LOL!

As for barrel rifling, we all know that more than one AR firm has chosen the 1 in 9" as their standard civilian rifle twist, but Bushmaster over the years has also offered the 1 in 7 in some of their rifles, and in some of their special order barrels. If you have never seen this, then you must be a greenhorn, since I have actually seen and held more than a few 1 in 7 inch barreled Bushmaster AR rifles. Has that offering been a limited one?...YES. But, have they made these barrels themselves and offered them?......... again....YES, they have! So go ahead and use your own little selling ploys on Armalites behalf, because as another poster mentioned, and can work both ways........... no droid here!

You want truths, what all of us definitely know (unless you have been living under a rock):

Bushmaster has made and offered (on a limited basis) 1 in 7" hard chrome lined barrels that have been used on some of their civilian AR rifles and have been sold as stand alone items.

They are a US Defense Contractor.

Their most common standard hard chromed lined civilian barrel (having a 1 in 9" twist), is manufactured by their own in house staff using raw 4150 barrel blanks.

The Department of Defense demands using 4150 steel for making M16/M4 barrels.

Armalite uses hard chromed lined 4140 steel barrels (not hard chromed lined 4150).

Bushmaster is the leading civilian AR producer in the country.

Colt is second.

Armalite is a distant third.

While you can post whatever message you want to relay, it won't change  those current facts above


I guess I will continue choosing what the first and second leading AR manufactures choose...... 4150 steel.

I will also continue to choose what the most powerful military in the world chooses........4150 steel.

Should I also consider the metal chosen by some third place AR manufacturer?.......... Ummm, don't think I will

These are civilian AR's we are talking about, which are closely based on the "AMERICAN" military issue M16/M4 design, not some foreign made AK, FAL, or Galil. When we are discussing other countries weapons, then we can consider what those guns are made of. Funny thing is, you say "I" keep off topic!

Heck with it, I'll humor you on your Honda sales pitch.......... WOW! I knew they were well known for making great vehicles, and I guess it has translated into very good sales,.....................hmmmm, seems like Bushmaster and Honda do have a lot in common  

See ya, I'm done with this, it has become exactly what I thought it would become......... a pissing match. I mean, just look at this thread, some seem to really be "SIDE STEPPING"!!! It started off with one thing, and has somehow drifted into steels used in "OTHER" countries firearms, Honda's car sales records, curse words, etc. So if you want to continue pissing......... you can piss without me, have fun........... LOL!!





 

After reading all of the argumentitive reasoning from both sides my mind still has not been changed. There was some good points made from the two opposing viewpoints, but it is a shame  that some folks feel that a hard debate by persons who strongly represent their point of view is  nothing more than a pissing contest.

Okay, I'll bite, since you insist!

My understanding is that the US military not only requires 4150 steel for their M16/M4 series barrels, but also for "ALL" of their military long gun barrels, (it may or may not hold true with their handguns).
With all the resources and testing that the military has done and contracted out for, you actually believe that them continuing to demand the 4150 steel for barrel use is just a "eeny meeny miny moe" decision for them?! You honestly believe that the continuing use of this steel is just for ha ha's.?! Do you believe that they have no merit in choosing the 4150 grade steel?! That they actually found no worth while advantage?! Do you actually believe that they went with the less common and more expensive steel because the steel's designation number looks nicer to them?! If this is what you believe, fine!............. I have a bridge over here in Brooklyn I can sell you

Minute as the advantage may be, and even if the advantage is only noticed under full auto or rapid fire, the US has consistanly chosen the 4150 steel for use in their long gun rifle barrels. They have chosen it time after time over the more commonly used and less expensive 4140.

And if Armalite ever gains a DOD M16/M4 rifle contract to supply our guys and gals serving in the US armed forces, you bet that those Armalites will have to have 4150 grade steel barrels, nothing more, nothing less

This will definitely be my last addition to what "I" consider a pissing match. The answer to your question is........ YES!

If you will take the time and read the entire thread properly, you will read where it says that when all else is equal, a difference may be noticed under full auto, and for us semi auto shooters, under some rapid fire situations. Of course you have decided to just dismiss that as a possible senerio. In my opinion, and if their is any doubt in ones mind, one should go with the DOD contract specified 4150 grade steel. Then, their will be no doubt

Nuff said  

I guess the US DOD is wrong in choosing 4150 barrel steel. The Bushmaster firm is wrong to offer it to their civilian customers. The Colt firm must also be wrong, since they also use it in their standard civilian AR barrels. "BUT"........ I guess the distant third place civilian AR manufacturer (Armalite), and fellow AR board member, Shivan, have it right. Again, you dismiss the possibility that a person may rapid fire enough out of an AR to notice a difference, and as far as I'm concerned the real is on your part. Apparently the military is able to notice a difference, but you in your infinite wisdom can see no possible way that the 4150 grade steel makes for a better AR/M16 barrel material. I mean, they can find advantages, but you can't! OK, so should we follow the US DOD decision, the Bushmaster decision, the Colt decision, "OR"......... follow Shivan and Armalite?! Ummm....... I'm thinking.......OKAY........I'll go with....... ! Come on! You know what the decision is!  

This alone proves my point, if one has even a shred of doubt, go with the 4150 steel specified for use in US military M16/M4 barrels


Best way to go is to vote with your purchases,.............."OH", that has already been done, making Bushmaster and Colt the number one and two civilian AR manufacturers in the US (both using 4150 steel barrels), and having a US DOD that only purchases M16/M4 rifles with 4150 steel barrels....LOL !

If you have no doubt that the 4140 is just as good as 4150 steel for AR barrel manufacture, more power to you
BUT........ if there is any doubt, go with the material that is being used in todays M16/M4 series barrels....... the 4150 steel

NUFF SAID........



   

Or, we can be even more naive in believing that this company that has tried all sorts of things to catch up to Colt and Bushmaster, "Armalite", is using the best material, and that the US DOD has got it all wrong. I mean we all know that the DOD never get things right?!! OH PLEASE!! Now that would be pure BS!  
Bushmaster, and Colt, and the DOD are the wrong ones here, and since fellow board member Shivan says that 4140 AR barrels are just as good as 4150 barrels, then that's the way we should all go! Armalites for everyone!!!!

Oh goody!! Glad we got that resolved!! LOL!!!

Oh, but going that route would not be naive?! OH PLEASE!!!!

And yes............... PERIOD!

You wrote:
"Since you contend that the "AVERAGE" AR shooter will notice a difference"

More on your part, since I never said such a thing! Nice try on attempting to twist what I said. Again, your reading skills must be lacking. What I said was that the consensus seems to be that it may be noticed under certain rapid fire situations, I never said by the average shooter.

You then inject totally irrelevent information about a steel not used by the companies in question.  
You wrote:
"some 4140 alloys will exceed basic 4150 alloys"
And then you go on to say that "they are cost prohibitive and not common". So what does that have to do with the comparisons between Armalites use of their 4140 steel to the 4150 steel used by Colt, Bushmaster, Fabrique National, and/or any other manufacturer that uses the DOD specified steel found in M16/M4 barrels.

Why don't you just inject some more foreign weapons and/or Honda's into the subject.
Again, drifting off topic seems to be "YOUR" major, twisting what a fellow poster states must be another .........LOL!

Let me turn the tables a bit, when someone can prove that the US DOD, Colt, Bushmaster, and others are doing wrong by choosing the specified 4150 steel, then we can all go Armalite and such. Until then.......... no thank you  

PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quoted: ArmaLite or Colt both are the best, you cant find any better

Bushmaster is much more civlian friendly than colt.

OK, Shivan and SSR-99,

I think I speak for everyone when I say that you two guys are sqealing at each other like a couple of faggy hairdressers.

We AR guys enjoy a good debate, but when it becomes obvious that we cannot convince the other guy, or the other guy has done a better job arguing than us, then we tell that guy to himselfand go on with our lives.

PS - John Kerry is a major tool.   I'm going to go on a three week drinking binge and crash my car if that c--ksucker wins.

Quoted: ArmaLite or Colt both are the best, you cant find any better

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  The only important difference is if you could 'double blind' users and have them tell the difference.  Give 1000 frequent shooters 4140 bbls stamped 4150 and 1000 4150 stamped 4140.  Don't tell them about the swap.  Have them shoot for TEN YEARS at whatever rate they normally shoot.

If they can tell the difference between a 4140 or 4150 bbl they already have I'll be impressed.

The fact that the heat differences at the threshold of base metal failure IS something you can scientifically show doesn't mean it's something that will benefit you.  If you shoot bbls to point of failure you oughtta buy the cheaper one because you'll be replacing AT LEAST a barrel from time to time.

If you're that much of a 'survivalist' or whatever you want to call yourself or if you just feel better with 4150, rip out the checkbook and go buy with confidence.  There's nothing wrong with it.  These days it's pretty rare to find a bbl maker putting out a product they know they can't mill accurately.