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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Shot show sneak preview - Leitner-Wise 308 piston AR (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 2/8/2006 9:44:34 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Whose comment is this pointed at?

No one in particular, but I did word that wrong.

I guess it was meant to be more of a brief comment on how people think the LW system effects accuarcy. I'm sure it does have some effect, but to compare it's accuracy with such rifles as the M14 simply because it's a piston system as well is not a fair comparison.

Posted: 2/8/2006 10:22:32 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
The biggest problem with a piston system is the vertical stringing of shot placement after the barrel warms up. Cold barrels are stout and rigid. A piston system on a AR action will produce a tight group (.500 MOA) on a cold barrel. After a volley of 60 plus rounds, the group size through vertical stringing will increase as much as 1.5 MOA. Crappy!...

This is all just theory, and I think is invalid, since the LW piston can't be compared to a FAL piston or a M14 piston beyond the fact that it is not a DI system.

A well known barrel manufacturer told me that he took his rifle with an LW piston and shot a 5-shot group measuring 0.5something inch. He then did two back to back full-auto mag dumps and then immediately shot another 5-shot group that I think he said was 0.03 inch bigger than the cold bore group.

I didn't ask him if that 0.03" was strung vertically or not.

NOTE TO SELF: Ask about that next time you talk to John.

Posted: 2/8/2006 10:36:59 AM EDT

[#3]

Testing will prove what is correct. Thanks AShooter.

Posted: 2/8/2006 9:22:34 PM EDT

[#4]

I've read this with interest and to a man all the detracters have never shot any of the new piston systems - err what is their point of reference?

This entire vertical stringing thing seems to have come from a review of the POF system in the book of the AR and as I have not had sufficient time behind a POF to comment with any degree of accuracy, I won't.

I suggest that the prudent thing to do is to listen to customers who have purchased and used the system and to totally unbiased individuals who have deliberately tried to induce vertical stringing and have not been able to do so.

If you want to see the .308's they are on our booth and DPMS's; they need more work to shave off some weight but they will be in production shortly.

Posted: 2/9/2006 2:59:34 AM EDT

[#5]

Paul, any announcement on the cost of these .308's, compared to 5.56/6.8?

Posted: 2/9/2006 6:48:19 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

This entire vertical stringing thing seems to have come from a review of the POF system in the book of the AR and as I have not had sufficient time behind a POF to comment with any degree of accuracy, I won't.

You act like the short stroke piston was invented on the AR15. There is over 50 years of data to back up claims of vertical stringing with pistons. If yours is magically different then I would love to hear why.

Posted: 2/9/2006 10:24:48 AM EDT

[#7]

.

Posted: 2/9/2006 12:34:48 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:

This entire vertical stringing thing seems to have come from a review of the POF system in the book of the AR and as I have not had sufficient time behind a POF to comment with any degree of accuracy, I won't.

You act like the short stroke piston was invented on the AR15. There is over 50 years of data to back up claims of vertical stringing with pistons. If yours is magically different then I would love to hear why.

I believe he told you why... there is no vertical stringing. Does that not make it special to you?

How much stringing do you get with the LW pistons you have tested?

Posted: 2/9/2006 12:35:47 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted: I see they beat POF to the 308.

Not by much!

You heard it here first. LW Urban Semi-Auto Sniper rifle. Piston driven.
Posted :: 2/7/2006 3:48:06 PM CST

VS.

P-308 (.308 cal.) Gas Piston, 11.5" Commando (Serious fire power!)
Posted :: 2/8/2006 12:42:52 PM CST

(I guess it remains to be seen which will show up on your doorstep first if ordered today...)

Posted: 2/9/2006 12:55:43 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

I believe he told you why...

Really, quote the explanation in his posts?

The samples I fired were not as accurate as the DI counterparts they were compared to. I'll leave it at that.

Posted: 2/9/2006 2:15:05 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:

I believe he told you why...

Really, quote the explanation in his posts?

The samples I fired were not as accurate as the DI counterparts they were compared to. I'll leave it at that.

LW samples?

Because my LW556SOC16 is indistinguishable in accuracy to DI and I have never experienced stringing of any kind.

Posted: 2/10/2006 3:26:33 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:

This entire vertical stringing thing seems to have come from a review of the POF system in the book of the AR and as I have not had sufficient time behind a POF to comment with any degree of accuracy, I won't.

You act like the short stroke piston was invented on the AR15. There is over 50 years of data to back up claims of vertical stringing with pistons. If yours is magically different then I would love to hear why.

If I'm reading you right, your opinion is that there is no way to improve a 50 year old system to make it work more efficiently than ever before? Look at how the automobile industry has progressed in the same time span, although the principles of the Otto and Diesel engines have remained unchanged. Oh yeah, I forgot... It must be all those wizards they hired...

So far I have seen nothing but good reports of the L-W system. I don't know why some are suddenly so concerned about the alleged vertical stringing and accuracy problems, although there is no evidence of such. At the same time people are getting all excited about the possibility to buy a SIG although it is just an AK in disguise. Somebody should warn them about vertical stringing...

Posted: 2/10/2006 4:00:22 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
At the same time people are getting all excited about the possibility to buy a SIG although it is just an AK in disguise. Somebody should warn them about vertical stringing...

Are this Sigs being advertised as precision rifles, with AR accuracy potential, or battle rifles with AK accuracy?

Posted: 2/10/2006 6:45:33 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
At the same time people are getting all excited about the possibility to buy a SIG although it is just an AK in disguise. Somebody should warn them about vertical stringing...

Are this Sigs being advertised as precision rifles, with AR accuracy potential, or battle rifles with AK accuracy?

I don't know what SIG's marketing material says. Besides, the SIG-551 for example demonstrates excellent accuracy. I've shot it side by side with a 16" Bushmaster M4gery and there was no noticeable difference in accuracy. It should be clear to anyone that the operating system has very little if any effect on the weapons accuracy. The vertical stringing is another issue completely, but so far no-one has shown any proof that the L-W exhibits this problem.

Surely the AR is also a combat weapon and not just a precision rifle, although some people posting here seem to have forgotten all about that. People who ask for cures to scratched receivers or dings in the shell deflector, you get the point I'm sure. The piston is not a limiting factor as far as accuracy goes, so I don't see a problem here.

Posted: 2/10/2006 7:17:48 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

This entire vertical stringing thing seems to have come from a review of the POF system in the book of the AR and as I have not had sufficient time behind a POF to comment with any degree of accuracy, I won't.

You act like the short stroke piston was invented on the AR15. There is over 50 years of data to back up claims of vertical stringing with pistons. If yours is magically different then I would love to hear why.

If I'm reading you right, your opinion is that there is no way to improve a 50 year old system to make it work more efficiently than ever before? Look at how the automobile industry has progressed in the same time span, although the principles of the Otto and Diesel engines have remained unchanged. Oh yeah, I forgot... It must be all those wizards they hired...

The auto industry dumped carburetors more than ten years ago for a reason. Over the years they constantly improved technology, the LW is not an improvement in technology. According to your analogy the LW is like if Mercedes put carbs back on their cars.

Quoted:
So far I have seen nothing but good reports of the L-W system. I don't know why some are suddenly so concerned about the alleged vertical stringing and accuracy problems, although there is no evidence of such. At the same time people are getting all excited about the possibility to buy a SIG although it is just an AK in disguise. Somebody should warn them about vertical stringing...

I never said accuracy was a problem with the LW system, just that it was not as accurate and that with the same government profiles barrels it will string. The accuracy is fine for what it is but it is not as accurate as a DI gun.

Posted: 2/10/2006 9:47:04 AM EDT

[#16]

I find it odd you are the only one who is getting this reduced accuracy. Got pics of targets with the vertical stringing?

Posted: 2/10/2006 10:30:53 AM EDT

[#17]

Free float and barrel will have more of an impact on accuracy than a piston IMHO Anyway the bullet is on its way before the piston even moves. Does that make sense??

Posted: 2/10/2006 11:45:25 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
I find it odd you are the only one who is getting this reduced accuracy. Got pics of targets with the vertical stringing?

Maybe this message board isn't the pinnacle of the firearms industry after all.

Posted: 2/10/2006 12:01:10 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I find it odd you are the only one who is getting this reduced accuracy. Got pics of targets with the vertical stringing?

Maybe this message board isn't the pinnacle of the firearms industry after all.

So you've tested Leitner-Wise uppers???

Posted: 2/10/2006 12:10:58 PM EDT

[#20]

Yes he said he fired "Leitner Wise piston samples" and encountered vertical stringing while testing them. He is the only person to experience this. He has no photographs of this I assume or he would have posted them instead of making some odd comment about the website instead of answering the question.

Posted: 2/10/2006 12:12:30 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I find it odd you are the only one who is getting this reduced accuracy. Got pics of targets with the vertical stringing?

Maybe this message board isn't the pinnacle of the firearms industry after all.

So you've tested Leitner-Wise uppers???

No, I am not a scientist nor do I work in a weapons lab under scientific conditions. I have fired several samples back to back with DI guns(as mentioned above). Is that good enough? or do I need to have a laboratory in order to state my experience and give my opinion? Should I check with you and DevL first?

By the way, I wonder if DevL ever wrapped his head around how the hand guard cap fits between the FSB and the shelf on the barrel. I know he had some concerns about that a while back. I find it strangely ironic that he has to ask about something so simple but he is suddenly qualified to question others on their experience.

Posted: 2/10/2006 12:26:10 PM EDT

[#22]

Tag.

Posted: 2/10/2006 12:27:26 PM EDT

[#23]

I've seen custom built FAL's shoot .5 MOA consistently, & that's got a gas piston !!

Posted: 2/10/2006 12:30:47 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I find it odd you are the only one who is getting this reduced accuracy. Got pics of targets with the vertical stringing?

Maybe this message board isn't the pinnacle of the firearms industry after all.

So you've tested Leitner-Wise uppers???

No, I am not a scientist nor do I work in a weapons lab under scientific conditions. I have fired several samples back to back with DI guns(as mentioned above). Is that good enough? or do I need to have a laboratory in order to state my experience and give my opinion? Should I check with you and DevL first?

For as sizable a claim you are making, some evidence is required to back this up.

You do not work in a weapons lab, but you acquired several LW piston uppers and was able to do enough accuracy testing on all of these uppers and compare them DI weapons in similar configuration to determine that the LW piston uppers are less accurate?

I would also like to see some pictures of this decreased accuracy and vertical stringing phenomenon.

Here's a couple of my targets. The barrel was fairly warm on these groups but not smoking. Like I said these are on par with my DI uppers.

click for larger pic.

Posted: 2/10/2006 12:50:36 PM EDT

[#25]

Below is the only group shot out of my LW rifle that I've ever bothered to measure. It was the last 4 rds of Black Hills mk262 "seconds" I had in a mag, so the last round on paper here was fired within about 5 minutes of the first 24 rds in that mag. This group was shot at 100m and measures 0.79" center to center of the two widest holes. I don't have the target in front of me, but it looks about 0.50" wide and 0.79" tall.

If this is the kind of "stringing" everybody's worried about, I think it's irrelevent, not to mention the fact that it was shot with a only a 4x optic aimed at the white smudge in the middle of the black (the "10"), a mil-spec type umpteen-pound creepy trigger, and only the forend was supported.

Posted: 2/10/2006 1:12:24 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

If this is the kind of "stringing" everybody's worried about, I think it's irrelevent, not to mention the fact that it was shot with a only a 4x optic aimed at the white smudge in the middle of the black (the "10"), a mil-spec type umpteen-pound creepy trigger, and only the forend was supported.

i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/ashooter/lloydsstuff009.jpg

If that's vertical stringing than my DIs do it to!

Posted: 2/10/2006 2:13:38 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: What is curious is the choice to use a gas piston on an "urban sniper" rifle? I know that the developmental (military) 7.62 rifles for the urban shooters use the DI system... but they are going for the best accuracy they can get.

I guess it's been said before, but there certainly are ways to get the same or better accuracy out of rifles with gas pistons.

I'll have to introduce you to some of the old National Guard Armorers, and you can talk to them about building Match M14s vs. Match ARs. All things equal, the gas piston will never be as accurate as DI.

I shoot higher Long Range scores with my M1A than I do with my AR. But thats because of the ergonomics(talking about slung up prone), and the sight radius. I know my M1A is not as accurate as my AR.

BB - you are 100% but you might want to add "for as long as a DI system will be"

Lastly - I think too much is made about accuracy ..... here's the deal ..... a walking T1 suddenly appears...... 6 mph half value wind (opposite direction) ...... a guess at 500 yards -> make that shot before T1 covers 35 yards ........ Go!

No time to dial dope you just have to know how to figure it out quickly, hold, breath, pause, squeeze, and follow through.

A 1 MOA weapon that is ergonomic, fast and rugged - sounds great.

Just my thought.

Posted: 2/10/2006 4:23:15 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Lastly - I think too much is made about accuracy ..... here's the deal ..... a walking T1 suddenly appears...... 6 mph half value wind (opposite direction) ...... a guess at 500 yards -> make that shot before T1 covers 35 yards ........ Go!

No time to dial dope you just have to know how to figure it out quickly, hold, breath, pause, squeeze, and follow through.

A 1 MOA weapon that is ergonomic, fast and rugged - sounds great.

Just my thought.

That's a good illustration of the point I've been trying to make. If you're talking about benchrest or even service rifle type stuff, it might matter. But for any kind of practical application, or even military sniping, there are so many other variables that go into making a shot, that even a full MOA of stringing would simply not matter.

It took me 1000+ rds out of 15 lb bolt action at 600-1000 yds to come to that conclusion. Now I don't want anything that weighs over 10 lbs (loaded) unless it's launching a bullet at least 200 grains!

In all fairness, I think it's all pretty subjective when you boil it down. What I can hit with may not be what somebody can hit with, and vice-versa. And then there's the psycological factor - one guy can make hits 90% of the time at 600-800m with a rifle he KNOWS is only capable of 2 moa, but another guy may not be able to do it at all unless he thinks it's a 1/2-moa rig. I've seen this happen to people.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Shot show sneak preview - Leitner-Wise 308 piston AR (Page 2 of 2)

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