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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Recoil reducing rubber buffer tips (Page 3 of 7)
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In case you guys haven't seen it, the PCC guys have been playing with putting a spring on the opposite end like some are discussing here.
Not my picture.....taken from Brianenos.com 
Link to the discussion: https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/250677-which-recoil-system-jp-scs-gen-2-vs-mbx-pcc-buffer-system/page/2/ Link to the rear wave spring from Smalley. https://www.smalley.com/wave-spring/cs100-h7 |
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That PCC setup looks awesome, and does absolutely speak to the idea of a 'buffer tube bumper' (BTB) for maximum shock absorption, ala PWS and my own terrible sketch of the concept:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Recoil-reducing-rubber-buffer-tips/118-744165/?page=2#i7971318 However, the PCC setup it loos like it would only work with a 9x19 due to the combined length? An A5 only gives you 0.75" of extra back space if using a carbine buffer, this spring+plug combo looks to be a good bit longer. However, some in the Enos thread mentioned MBX, who I had never heard of before. It looks like they do offer something nearly perfect, or at least perfectly illustrates the idea: https://mbxextreme.com/index.php?page=PCC_Buffer 
The big question is whether this would be too long for a carbine tube / too short for an A5 tube. For an A5, I imagine it would look similar to the length of a 9mm Buffer spacer, but engineered for shock absorption (Sorbothane rubber + rounded/pointed impact surface for more deformation under impact): 
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Quoted: Is this your channel? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChuf4US5bFAgpeCYFys02XQ/videos If so, I'm a big fan of your work / testing. I watched all of your LARB videos a year back or so, as well as your T91 review. In regards to the LARB tip, that's very encouraging to hear, I look forward to your complete review. If we were able to get you other buffers / buffer tips, would you be interested in testing them? For example, the new EAB tip in the OP, vs the LARB tip. Or the effects of a Hydraulic Buffer vs the LARB, etc. |
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Thanks. Yes this is my channel. I would be glad to do a side by side evaluation. I am waiting for it to be cooler to get back out to "Bullet Creek" and continue reviews. Quoted:
Quoted: Is this your channel? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChuf4US5bFAgpeCYFys02XQ/videos If so, I'm a big fan of your work / testing. I watched all of your LARB videos a year back or so, as well as your T91 review. In regards to the LARB tip, that's very encouraging to hear, I look forward to your complete review. If we were able to get you other buffers / buffer tips, would you be interested in testing them? For example, the new EAB tip in the OP, vs the LARB tip. Or the effects of a Hydraulic Buffer vs the LARB, etc. Since you already did the LARB Tip testing, it seems like the ideal head to head would be the new Jones EAB. If you can PM me your address, I'll order the EAB and have it sent to you. |
You what’s funny guys? You’re saying you want to re-engineer another company’s product, to improve on it, using my design and part. Yet, lots are questioning whether my part even works or not. Something to keep in mind guys, the LARB tail cap is ONLY a $15.00 part. Which barley covers machine time, nitrogen and shipping. It’s also only one piece in many in a a very complex system. So you’re not going to get life changing results from it. Also remember my cap was designed to be run in the LARB buffer as a system, we only offered the cap separate due to increased customer pressure. What can expect from the LARB tail cap is a slight reduction in recoil and take away some of the sharpness during recoil. We’ve recorded lower ROF with just the LARB cap, this means a lower bolt speeds. The best thing to do, is just get a complete LARB buffer and get all the benefits everyone is seeking on this thread. And be done with it. 
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That sounds interesting, could you go into that a bit more? Quoted:
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We also have the rate reducing tail cap, just haven't really pushed it yet.   photo album upload" />
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We've seen up to a 20% reduction in ROF/bolt velocities with this cap alone. Up to 30% when used with our LARB buffer. It’s a very simple design modification to the LAB tail cap. Most designs that work well, are simple. Don’t over complicate or over engineer something just for the hell of it. This is a simple design, yet is is engineered, tested and evaluated. It works well, mbell has one of these as well...photo album upload[/url] Quoted:
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We also have the rate reducing tail cap, just haven't really pushed it yet. 20% reduction is quite different in terms of ROF reduction then what the regular LARB tip + H buffer did in Mbell's testing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOmpH-UcZlQ 
The LARB bumper seems to have increased ROF by 20rpm, I assume due to 'bouncing' back with more force then a standard bumper due to the increased compression vs the regular, less compressible bumper. |
| Yep. Hence the firmer durometer we started using. But the thing is, when the cap is used on the LARB buffer as a system, that is eliminated. As it was designed to do. And again, not every component in the recoil system will “help”. “Joe May put a LARB cap in his Bushmaster 16” carbine and see great results. Then “Bob” put the same cap in his Colt 16” carbine and get totally different results. We typically see good, seared results, but that not 100% the case. That’s no ones fault, that’s just machines. There’s never a replacement for physically trying the components oneself. No matter the brand or part. Try it. That what we all do, see how it feels and don’t worry too much about the “details”, engineering, design, marketing, hype or fancy graphs. There’s a absolutely no substitute for seat of the pants testing. |
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There are a number of elastomer MTB forks on the market. I wonder if those compounds would work. They deal with much higher cyclic rates than an AR can produce and last for years on an mountain bike. 
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There are a number of elastomer MTB forks on the market. I wonder if those compounds would work. They deal with much higher cyclic rates than an AR can produce and last for years on a mountain bike. |
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Do you notice a reduction in recoil / increased 'smoothness' using the Amphibian setup in Semi? Quoted:
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I just did the tubb spring, hydraulic buffer, and a5 tube as amphibian recommended. It's absolutely phenomenal in a full auto suppressed crane spec mk18. I doubt it can be surpassed. I'll try and get a shot timer on it, but of feels mid 600's and far more controllable than any other automatic rifle I've fired. Just smooth. Interested to see how these tips work for a cheaper upgrade in my semi auto guns Yes sir. I was running a spikes T2 buffer in a carbine stock with the tubb spring. That was actually a nice improvement alone over a stock spring and h buffer. Then on the advice of amphibian I bought an A5 tube and kynshott 9mm buffer and the difference is drastic in both semi and auto. I'm gonna buy an LARB buffer to try as well, and also set up the rest of my rifles with his tips. I can't justify $100 buffers for all my rifles, but adding the tips is cheap enough and their function makes perfect sense |
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Quoted: Yup! DH riding is a big passion of mine. Yes and no. Elastomer forks died with the dodo bird yeas ago, air is what’s used now. Elastomer is urethane, the old different color elastomer rods we used to use were just in fact, softer/firmer durometer urethane rods. Rubber and urethane are two totally different materials with very different characteristics. That’s why we use urethane on our tail caps. |
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https://mbxextreme.com/images/pistolCaliberCarbine/recoilSpringsWhite.jpg The big question is whether this would be too long for a carbine tube / too short for an A5 tube. There are some cool innovations of late. The LARB buffer and the DPM RSS buffer, as well as the Surefire OBC. The 15 buck LARB bumper sounds to good to pass up for those with a standard roll pin bumper buffer. My wife says I can't leave well enough alone with firearm innovations. She is right on. The experts in here (and not so experts like me) are going to have a field day testing and comparing. Vendors are going to make money. Sounds like good news all around. |
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I ordered one of those short buffer pads just to see how it fits travel wise. $2.50 free shipping. May be able to carve a point into it to achieve similar effect as LARB buffer bumper with my Kynshot hydraulic (No roll pin bumper) buffer. There are some cool innovations of late. The LARB buffer and the DPM RSS buffer, as well as the Surefire OBC. The 15 buck LARB bumper sounds to good to pass up for those with a standard roll pin bumper buffer. My wife says I can't leave well enough alone with firearm innovations. She is right on. The experts in here (and not so experts like me) are going to have a field day testing and comparing. Vendors are going to make money. Sounds like good news all around. Quoted:
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https://mbxextreme.com/images/pistolCaliberCarbine/recoilSpringsWhite.jpg The big question is whether this would be too long for a carbine tube / too short for an A5 tube. There are some cool innovations of late. The LARB buffer and the DPM RSS buffer, as well as the Surefire OBC. The 15 buck LARB bumper sounds to good to pass up for those with a standard roll pin bumper buffer. My wife says I can't leave well enough alone with firearm innovations. She is right on. The experts in here (and not so experts like me) are going to have a field day testing and comparing. Vendors are going to make money. Sounds like good news all around. 
I'm totally with you on 'not leaving well enough alone.' To me, half the fun of shooting as a hobby is the technical / technological / design side of things. The combination of small details that create the big picture. |
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Yes sir. I was running a spikes T2 buffer in a carbine stock with the tubb spring. That was actually a nice improvement alone over a stock spring and h buffer. Then on the advice of amphibian I bought an A5 tube and kynshott 9mm buffer and the difference is drastic in both semi and auto. I'm gonna buy an LARB buffer to try as well, and also set up the rest of my rifles with his tips. I can't justify $100 buffers for all my rifles, but adding the tips is cheap enough and their function makes perfect sense Quoted:
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I just did the tubb spring, hydraulic buffer, and a5 tube as amphibian recommended. It's absolutely phenomenal in a full auto suppressed crane spec mk18. I doubt it can be surpassed. I'll try and get a shot timer on it, but of feels mid 600's and far more controllable than any other automatic rifle I've fired. Just smooth. Interested to see how these tips work for a cheaper upgrade in my semi auto guns Yes sir. I was running a spikes T2 buffer in a carbine stock with the tubb spring. That was actually a nice improvement alone over a stock spring and h buffer. Then on the advice of amphibian I bought an A5 tube and kynshott 9mm buffer and the difference is drastic in both semi and auto. I'm gonna buy an LARB buffer to try as well, and also set up the rest of my rifles with his tips. I can't justify $100 buffers for all my rifles, but adding the tips is cheap enough and their function makes perfect sense Now we just need to get a head to head between the Kynshot vs the DPM double spring buffer. |
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Quoted: Awesome, thats great to hear. Chalk up another one for 'the amphibian' - works well in SA too. So far, Hydraulic seems like the most effective / most well reviewed recoil reducing buffer. Now we just need to get a head to head between the Kynshot vs the DPM double spring buffer. |
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His testing sure put me on the right track. After I hear back from DPM US on answers to a couple questions I'm planning on sending one to Amphibian who is game to do some testing/comparison to Kynshot hydraulic. I asked DPM how heavy the buffer is with the light weight and what the compressed length is. There are 3 springs to choose from. Mucho configurability. I will use it in my config if it makes for an improvement over hydraulic. Quoted:
Quoted: Awesome, thats great to hear. Chalk up another one for 'the amphibian' - works well in SA too. So far, Hydraulic seems like the most effective / most well reviewed recoil reducing buffer. Now we just need to get a head to head between the Kynshot vs the DPM double spring buffer. |
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Can someone post the links to amphibian's tips please? M16 related tuning: http://c3junkie.com/?page_id=654 Some buffer info: http://c3junkie.com/?page_id=430 Just wanted to add that I find it interesting you see so many posts from people commenting on how archaic it is to use the buffer tube but IMHO, I think that is great because we can take advantage of all the aftermarket, springs and buffers. Only with the AR platform you have so many options to make it run the way you want. While it may be 'sexy' to have a side folding rifle, I don't think anything will run as smooth as a gas operated AR if you know how to tune it properly using all the great options out there. |
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Darn, those LARB bumpers sold out quickly. Hoping we'll see some more in stock soon? ******* I’ll do another run soon. I have plenty in stock but I need them to build and fulfill buffer orders. I may be able to spare some after I build some more buffers... Nick Barry Armamentusa.com FFL/SOT 505-417-1503 ******* Apparently healthy interest in the whole LARB buffer. There is a bulge on the face that must fit into the open end of the bolt carrier nicely or the system won't function properly. Not sure it will mesh with one of my uppers: CMMG Banshee 9mm RDB BCG. I'll have to look into that. |
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Has anyone tried out the Jones EAB that's in the OP? It seems to have gotten lost as the thread progressed and it's the one that's most interesting to me http://store.jonesarms.com/jones-arms-eab/jones-arms-eab-2847/energy-absorbing-bumpereab-2290936 |
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The biggest problem I see with these is no fan boy base for introduction. If LaRue, Geissele, or Magpul had introduced them then people would be going ga-ga over them at twice the price, less shipping of course. But a relatively nobody introduces them then they are going to be pooh-poohed by many. |
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My site: http://c3junkie.com/ M16 related tuning: http://c3junkie.com/?page_id=654 Some buffer info: http://c3junkie.com/?page_id=430 Just wanted to add that I find it interesting you see so many posts from people commenting on how archaic it is to use the buffer tube but IMHO, I think that is great because we can take advantage of all the aftermarket, springs and buffers. Only with the AR platform you have so many options to make it run the way you want. While it may be 'sexy' to have a side folding rifle, I don't think anything will run as smooth as a gas operated AR if you know how to tune it properly using all the great options out there. 
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| Since the LARB bumper is out of stock I ordered the EAB one. Going to put it on a Spike's T3 and see how it feels, wish I had the LARB bumper too to compare. Full auto will give it a good bashing. I will take a pic new and after a few hundred rounds. Someone in here mentioned it folds over after a while. Anyone else used it extensively yet? |
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Is the hole in the cap supposed to angle towards the front? Or did I get a Friday one? So far I've had more trouble with the roll pin turning sideways, but this doesn't seem to help.
Attached File Attached File |
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Someone in here mentioned it folds over after a while. Makes sense to me, the LARB cap looks to be a stouter design that's less prone to bending. Just wish I could buy one right now. :( |
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Is the hole in the cap supposed to angle towards the front? Or did I get a Friday one? So far I've had more trouble with the roll pin turning sideways, but this doesn't seem to help. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20191007_201815_jpg-1116453.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20191007_201829_jpg-1116454.JPG |
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Is the hole in the cap supposed to angle towards the front? Or did I get a Friday one? So far I've had more trouble with the roll pin turning sideways, but this doesn't seem to help. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20191007_201815_jpg-1116453.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20191007_201829_jpg-1116454.JPG |
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I don't think anyone here's actually tested the EAB itself and found it to fold over, Nick just noted that he initially tried experimenting with a bumper shape similar to the EAB and found it to do that under full auto fire. Makes sense to me, the LARB cap looks to be a stouter design that's less prone to bending. Just wish I could buy one right now. :( |
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Shouldn’t. Hole should be centered, they’re drilled in a fixture. You’d be surprised and the variance we’ve found between buffers and hole locations. You can have a cap that’s off .005 and a buffer that’s off .005 and now you have a .010 hole offset with a .125 roll pin. Tolerance stacking.... Quoted:
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Is the hole in the cap supposed to angle towards the front? Or did I get a Friday one? So far I've had more trouble with the roll pin turning sideways, but this doesn't seem to help. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20191007_201815_jpg-1116453.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20191007_201829_jpg-1116454.JPG |
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Yep. I usually redrill them, myself. |
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Quoted: We've seen up to a 20% reduction in ROF/bolt velocities with this cap alone. Up to 30% when used with our LARB buffer. It’s a very simple design modification to the LAB tail cap. Most designs that work well, are simple. Don’t over complicate or over engineer something just for the hell of it. This is a simple design, yet is is engineered, tested and evaluated. It works well, mbell has one of these as well... https://i.ibb.co/Lk9MDJz/633029-C1-032-F-4290-9-E13-8-B69983-E8232.jpg https://i.ibb.co/QpnjNCk/4-BC2414-B-21-D8-4-E33-91-FC-3-F8-DFE7-F4228.jpg photo album upload" target="_blank">https://i.ibb.co/Lk9MDJz/633029-C1-032-F-4290-9-E13-8-B69983-E8232.jpg https://i.ibb.co/QpnjNCk/4-BC2414-B-21-D8-4-E33-91-FC-3-F8-DFE7-F4228.jpg photo album upload |
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Ah, it's the AR15.com buffer that seems offset about 0.030". Great. |
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Put it into the buffer rotated 90 degrees then drill the new pin hole through it using the crooked buffer holes as a guide. |
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Quoted: I didn't say that. What I'm saying is we can't make a part that fits every variation and different buffer out there. Buffers are what we do here. We have TONS of them laying around. Everywhere. Literally. And.... they're all different. There's a 5 gallon bucket full of "mil spec" buffers in the shop. They all vary significantly between each other. Typically these mil spec buffers range .010 in all dimensions. ID, OD, hole depths, pin locations, pin diameter, head diameter, OAL. Don't even get me started on the tail caps or the weights. But, it is what it is. And they all work. We can make a pet that fits everything perfect. I've installed countless LARB caps in other buffer bodies. I can pretty much guarantee it will fit. If it doesn't, send it back and I'll give you a full refund... I eyeballed the cap/buffer hole alignment, then pulled the cap out and eyeballed the punch in the buffer. Grinding more taper on the roll pin and scraping some urethane with the punch was just enough to get it through. Old cap OD measured 0.571", buffer ID is 0.567", and the LARB's OD is 0.560", btw. I'll hopefully have a range report by week's end. |
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I had you. I eyeballed the cap/buffer hole alignment, then pulled the cap out and eyeballed the punch in the buffer. Grinding more taper on the roll pin and scraping some urethane with the punch was just enough to get it through. Old cap OD measured 0.571", buffer ID is 0.567", and the LARB's OD is 0.560", btw. I'll hopefully have a range report by week's end. |
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I ordered the EAB today and had it sent to mbell, so he will be able to do a more formal/scientific comparison with it vs the LARB tip that he's already tested. So we're making progress in this rubber roundup.
In the interim though, if anyone gets to informally test the EAB or LARB at the range, your results would be greatly appreciated. |
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Is the hole in the cap supposed to angle towards the front? Or did I get a Friday one? So far I've had more trouble with the roll pin turning sideways, but this doesn't seem to help. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20191007_201815_jpg-1116453.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20191007_201829_jpg-1116454.JPG |
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I've got a DPM RRS buffer on the way for evaluation and Amphibian has agreed to test it out vs. hydraulic. I would like to see it compared to the LARB buffer as well. I believe mbell? is getting a LARB buffer to test so if he is game I'll send it to him after Amphibian has completed his tests, or mbell can send the LARB to Amphibian, either way is fine with me.
The buffer is expensive and there is no test data out there that I could find or videos other than by the OEM, DPM. I suggested that the exposure on AR-15.com and video of testing could help with sales. They readily agreed to send me one. Very fast reply and DPM must have high confidence that their buffer will perform well. Here is the data on weights: With light weight 117 grams (4.13 oz.) With heavy weight 127 grams (4.48 oz) -------------------------------------------- Dear Rick, Thank you very much. Yes I provide a sample for you to test and advertise it in social media. The tracking number is : xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx with Hellenic Post office, (USPS in U.S.A.) I send also a spring and adaptor. Attention the adaptor is only for long tubes. For carbine size tubes use only the spring and the buffer. If you use the adaptor in the carbine tube the buffer will be broken. Below is the products I send. https://dpmsystems.com/ar-15-223-recoil-buffer-assembly https://dpmsystems.com/ar-15-set-universal-adaptor-spring Please let me know once you receive it. Best Regards Panagiotis Mantas DPM Systems Technologies Ltd. Mikras Asias 37 Argiroupolis 164 52 Athens Greece Tel/Fax: +30 210 96 17 153 E-mail: [email protected] Web site: www.dpmsystems.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Note that I still haven't gotten a reply from any of the 3 US suppliers that I contacted. The OEM in Greece replied in less than 24 hours. Also posting this info in the other thread I started more on topic for the subject. Test results should probably go here: DPM RRS vs. Hydraulic vs. ? |
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Just got back from the range. Test gun was a M&P 15X upper from early 2000s with 1:9 chrome lined m-4 cut barrel, A2 flash hider, and carbine gas system with 2 MOA Sig Romeo 7 put on an Aero/M&P lower (original lower was SBR'd for my work gun). As expected the carbine buffer with no changes to it had the most dot movement and perceived recoil both from bench resting on mag and standing. All three buffers performed about the exact same from the mag rest on a bench so much so I could tell no difference. I'm a LEO so mag rest shooting and standing are the most likely positions I'll shoot from in my city anyway. The LARB equipped buffer when standing felt to be a sharper straight push back into my body but dot movement was maybe by eye 25% less roughly (wild guess) in all than standard carbine. The EAB was the same on dot movement reduction of by eye 25% but the push while also more straight back like the LARB it felt softer but not drastically so, just enough I could tell. Between the LARB and EAB I would have to go EAB for the softer feel and easier install considering the issue I had with my LARB but YMMV. I'll have to try both on my A5 buffer guns I use for duty but not till I can fix the LARB's roll pin hole. For me in my job that lesser dot movement is worth it. Of Note I shot much better groupings with the LARB and EAB when keeping up the same rate of fire so it seems they made it easier for me to properly line up my shots in an event where I have to fire faster than a static range.
EDIT: I was able to fix the damage carbine buffer, though the hole is oblong now on one side to fit the LARB a larger pin worked to put the old bumper back on. Still working on making a fixture out of wood to fix the LARB hole alignment. That will have to wait as my lunch break is ending and my partner is covering for me. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Recoil reducing rubber buffer tips (Page 3 of 7)
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