Seems like we need a few things...

1) a lawyer
2) all the paperwork
3) HK TO BUILD A DAMN FACTORY IN THE USA TO SELL THESE THINGS!!!

Spooky

Quoted: It is not contraband and the reason I'm so confident is that a similar scenario happened to me in MA.  To quickly summarize: a few years ago the AG has banned all handguns and came up with a rigorous testing scheme with the goal of dramatically limiting handgun sales.  After about two years, Glock guns finally passed the test and I purchased one through a local dealer.  Later that day the AG clarified that while Glocks had successfully passed the test, they were still not eligible for sale.  The AG went after Glock and levied fines against the local dealers that sold the Glocks.  I was repeatedly contacted by Glock attorneys – they offered to buy my 27 back at the price I paid, by my dealer and his attorney and an AG attorney.     Being stubborn, I refused to turn in the gun primarily because my best friend (an attorney) and my dealer’s attorney couldn’t not find any State or Federal laws preventing me from owning the gun based on the situation.  I’m registered to own handguns in MA and the gun was legally registered with the state and Feds when I bought it.  In the end, my dealer had to pay a $5,000 fine and he claims that Glock reimbursed him .  No fines were levied against me.  Would I do it again – no – because it was a huge hassle that lasted seven months – all over a $600 gun - but I did learn that the Gov’t can’t force you to turn it in an item if you are legally allowed to own said firearm or upper.   Yes, this falls under Federal guidelines, but it is not contraband.  A Form 6's intent does not carry on for perpetuity , but only to get said item into the country.  If the importer knowing lied or attempted to decieve the gov't, then the importer is liable not the consumer.

I remember that scenario in MA, but that isn't remotely this.  You should know better than to use a anecdotal state level experience and blanket this dicussion with it.  You are completely ignoring the law.  Form 6s DO carry on in perpetuity.  If a firearm was modified to get an approved Form 6, the firearm CANNOT EVER be modified back to an unimportable configuration unless it becomes NFA.  Look at 922r.  And if the Importer blatantly lied on the Form 6 as you suggest, yes he would be prosecuted for it, but if you own one of these guns, even years later, you own contraband and it can legally be seized as evidence against the importer (or YOU). If it can be proved that you knew it was contraband and maintained possession, you can be prosecuted.  

This is federal import law, not MA state law.  Your Glock was legally imported federally, just ran afoul at the state level. Wildly different. Any firearm or part that is brought into the country on a false or erroneous Form 6 is contraband, even if it was the result of an innocent mistake.  Motive does not matter whatsoever. It doesn't matter in the least that there might be identical firearms or parts out there that are legal.  If the process is illegal, the results are too. If you buy a Beretta 92F from an obscure importer and it is later determined that his Form 6 was falsified, willlfully or not, your Beretta 92F is illegal, even if you can buy an identical one at the local gun store that is legal.

Geez , what a fuss over a Hunk of metal.

You boys that bought em just stick to your guns

it's not like the Govt. is gonna come shoot your Dog or baby over some improper paperwork.
Or make you spend all the money you make in the next 50 years on a lawyer to keep your Ass
out of jail.

Nah , our Govt. would never do anything like that , not over a hunk of metal....  

How could HK prove that the one you have is "stolen"? It's not like they have serial numbers.

Any 416 upper will do. It's not like they're available legitimately. *thud*

It's either contraband or stolen guvmint property. Welcome to Club Fed.

Wasn't there a guy that posted here that actually sold some of these uppers? I don't want to name names if I am wrong but I think it is the same person that said he had a letter stating he did nothing wrong. Maybe he knows something that could clarify this matter.

Quoted: Correct but the order was cancelled/aborted and that means the items must return to the custody of the consignee. That's why HK is involved. If the uppers were simply stolen from an armory, then they would not have to do a thing. FLCon....it's not the End User's issue alone. As the oversight authority the ATFE is obliged to prevent such abuses. That HK has an invoice price on the uppers leads me to believe that the uppers were imported by themsleves to be mated to domestic US lowers and as such declared items on the Form 6. Equally, LE/Mil cannot just flog their restricted gear to the public without first getting a waiver to do so from the ATFE. I seriosuly doubt there is a waiver fro the 416s. The parts kit scene is a workaround NFA and other regulations and I'm not at all certain that people want too much clarification. Simon

Show us the statute that makes one have to return the items on the Form 6 if you do not keep them but rather destroy them.  If the form 6 said "destruction testing" and the lowers were tested to see how much weight would sqoosh em why cant you sell the uppers after the machinegun is destroyed?

The Form 6 was falsified (see Dave Pennington's expose). Everything there on in is contraband and illegal. The invoices have individual prices for the uppers which sugegsts that the uppers were imported alone. Not very destroyed was Michael Vain's. (I feel for you man! Shoot the shit out of them and get your money back!)

What is so diffiuclt to udnerstand. The guns were brought in under a forged/falsified end user by a .mil person working in cahoots with some dealers (his fences). He's probably been rumbled and that is why the End USer cert has been revoked but the uppers are already in circulation and have to be accunted for. Declare them contrabband and they will never resurface.

Dealers like Bryan Pritcard HAVE to notify all their customers and convince them to surrender the weapons back OR he will lose any immunity from prosecution. Not  HK lawsuit but in all lieklyhood a Federal felony rap, That is why he will pay them the difference no questions asked. Now if ONE of them doesn't play ball...he's fucked.

Simon

Does noone see that there has been a crime committed and that lot's of people are willfully denying it? You know the uppers are hot. You know they were illegally imported under false pretenses for a .mil organisation and diverted to sell for a massive profit (+110%) You know that the consignee would never sell teh darned thing for eventual resale and is trying to recover the uppers.

What can I say? Buy one. Pay Brian protchard $2300 for one. Heck do what Mike Vain did and buy one of each.  Perhaps you can even track down some of the irons floating around. And if you still ahve it when I come to the US next year, I SHALL buy you 500 rounds of Black Hills blue box. We can shoot it togetehr.....

Simon

Quoted: Govt has to prove it was the intent of the purchaser to import items for commercial resale, which may or may not be difficult depending on existing evidence.

True, we don't know for sure wether or not the Govt has a case in this situation.  Don't sound good though does it?

Quoted: Yes, this falls under Federal guidelines, but it is not contraband.  A Form 6's intent does not carry on for perpetuity , but only to get said item into the country.  If the importer knowing lied or attempted to decieve the gov't, then the importer is liable not the consumer.

CFR PART 47.63:

"Whoever knowingly imports into the United States contrary to law any articles on the US Munitions Import List; or receives, conceals, buys, sells, or in any manner facilitates its transportation, concealment, or sale after importation, knowing the same to have been contrary to law, shall be fine not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more then 5 years, or both; and the merchandise so imported, or the value thereof shall be forfeited to the United States."

Quoted: If the form 6 said "destruction testing" and the lowers were tested to see how much weight would sqoosh em why cant you sell the uppers after the machinegun is destroyed?

You are not seriously suggesting that is what happened here?  And if so that odds are good that it would stand up in court?

Quoted: How could HK prove that the one you have is "stolen"? It's not like they have serial numbers.

The HK 416 uppers have serial numbers.

Quoted:
The Form 6 was falsified (see Dave Pennington's expose). Everything there on in is contraband and illegal. The invoices have individual prices for the uppers which sugegsts that the uppers were imported alone. Not very destroyed was Michael Vain's. (I feel for you man! Shoot the shit out of them and get your money back!)

What is so diffiuclt to udnerstand. The guns were brought in under a forged/falsified end user by a .mil person working in cahoots with some dealers (his fences). He's probably been rumbled and that is why the End USer cert has been revoked but the uppers are already in circulation and have to be accunted for. Declare them contrabband and they will never resurface.

Dealers like Bryan Pritcard HAVE to notify all their customers and convince them to surrender the weapons back OR he will lose any immunity from prosecution. Not  HK lawsuit but in all lieklyhood a Federal felony rap, That is why he will pay them the difference no questions asked. Now if ONE of them doesn't play ball...he's fucked.


Simon

You are feeding bad information here.

First of all I Told Hk I would notify all buyers which I have. I am under NO THREAT of prosecution as I did nothing wrong here per Hk's Legal Council and a Letter overnighter to me stating this.

I have cotacted all buyers and now the ball is in their court to do the right thing. If they dont they risk surrendering them. If they doo they get all their money back period.

If the dont surrender them I am under no threat of prosecution. so please get your facts straight
No Imunity issues here with me. Im not fucked either way and the reason I will pay their money back DUH!!!!!!! Its the right thing to do, who wouldnt

Call Neils Ihlof at Hk to get the true picture with me or any of this.

Thanks

Bryan

Quoted: Quoted: The Form 6 was falsified (see Dave Pennington's expose). Everything there on in is contraband and illegal. The invoices have individual prices for the uppers which sugegsts that the uppers were imported alone. Not very destroyed was Michael Vain's. (I feel for you man! Shoot the shit out of them and get your money back!) What is so diffiuclt to udnerstand. The guns were brought in under a forged/falsified end user by a .mil person working in cahoots with some dealers (his fences). He's probably been rumbled and that is why the End USer cert has been revoked but the uppers are already in circulation and have to be accunted for. Declare them contrabband and they will never resurface. Dealers like Bryan Pritcard HAVE to notify all their customers and convince them to surrender the weapons back OR he will lose any immunity from prosecution. Not  HK lawsuit but in all lieklyhood a Federal felony rap, That is why he will pay them the difference no questions asked. Now if ONE of them doesn't play ball...he's fucked. Simon You are feeding bad information here. First of all I Told Hk I would notify all buyers which I have. I am under NO THREAT of prosecution as I did nothing wrong here per Hk's Legal Council and a Letter overnighter to me stating this. I have cotacted all buyers and now the ball is in their court to do the right thing. If they dont they risk surrendering them. If they doo they get all their money back period. If the dont surrender them I am under no threat of prosecution. so please get your facts straight No Imunity issues here with me. Im not fucked either way and the reason I will pay their money back DUH!!!!!!! Its the right thing to do, who wouldnt Call Neils Ihlof at Hk to get the true picture with me or any of this. Thanks Bryan

Another thing here...THESE ARE NOT STOLEN!!!!!!!!!!! Just entered the market against Hk's wishes and Rules

Hmmm....Neils was out. I'll try later.

Bryan....I'd agree that you've carried out your necessary duties and that you can't coerce the buyers into returning the uppers. HK would need ATFE teeth to force surrender. Eeeek......they are powerful.

I'll try calling Neils later to see if I can have associates safely pick one of the uppers up. I mean if it's only HK and the stuff isn't contraband or stolen....then they're cool. It would eb great to have one to run.

Quoted: Fraudulently acquired. Maybe not quite stolen but...

Kevin not even Fraudulently acquired...
That would mean I would have not something different than
100% legit as I understood and was told

Bryan

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Form 6 was falsified (see Dave Pennington's expose). Everything there on in is contraband and illegal. The invoices have individual prices for the uppers which sugegsts that the uppers were imported alone. Not very destroyed was Michael Vain's. (I feel for you man! Shoot the shit out of them and get your money back!) What is so diffiuclt to udnerstand. The guns were brought in under a forged/falsified end user by a .mil person working in cahoots with some dealers (his fences). He's probably been rumbled and that is why the End USer cert has been revoked but the uppers are already in circulation and have to be accunted for. Declare them contrabband and they will never resurface. Dealers like Bryan Pritcard HAVE to notify all their customers and convince them to surrender the weapons back OR he will lose any immunity from prosecution. Not  HK lawsuit but in all lieklyhood a Federal felony rap, That is why he will pay them the difference no questions asked. Now if ONE of them doesn't play ball...he's fucked. Simon You are feeding bad information here. First of all I Told Hk I would notify all buyers which I have. I am under NO THREAT of prosecution as I did nothing wrong here per Hk's Legal Council and a Letter overnighter to me stating this. I have cotacted all buyers and now the ball is in their court to do the right thing. If they dont they risk surrendering them. If they doo they get all their money back period. If the dont surrender them I am under no threat of prosecution. so please get your facts straight No Imunity issues here with me. Im not fucked either way and the reason I will pay their money back DUH!!!!!!! Its the right thing to do, who wouldnt Call Neils Ihlof at Hk to get the true picture with me or any of this. Thanks Bryan Another thing here...THESE ARE NOT STOLEN!!!!!!!!!!! Just entered the market against Hk's wishes and Rules Well that depends. How did the person pay for them? US Govt funds? See that part I dont have a clue.............. How they were obtained I still dont have a firm answer on that Bryan C4

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Form 6 was falsified (see Dave Pennington's expose). Everything there on in is contraband and illegal. The invoices have individual prices for the uppers which sugegsts that the uppers were imported alone. Not very destroyed was Michael Vain's. (I feel for you man! Shoot the shit out of them and get your money back!) What is so diffiuclt to udnerstand. The guns were brought in under a forged/falsified end user by a .mil person working in cahoots with some dealers (his fences). He's probably been rumbled and that is why the End USer cert has been revoked but the uppers are already in circulation and have to be accunted for. Declare them contrabband and they will never resurface. Dealers like Bryan Pritcard HAVE to notify all their customers and convince them to surrender the weapons back OR he will lose any immunity from prosecution. Not  HK lawsuit but in all lieklyhood a Federal felony rap, That is why he will pay them the difference no questions asked. Now if ONE of them doesn't play ball...he's fucked. Simon You are feeding bad information here. First of all I Told Hk I would notify all buyers which I have. I am under NO THREAT of prosecution as I did nothing wrong here per Hk's Legal Council and a Letter overnighter to me stating this. I have cotacted all buyers and now the ball is in their court to do the right thing. If they dont they risk surrendering them. If they doo they get all their money back period. If the dont surrender them I am under no threat of prosecution. so please get your facts straight No Imunity issues here with me. Im not fucked either way and the reason I will pay their money back DUH!!!!!!! Its the right thing to do, who wouldnt Call Neils Ihlof at Hk to get the true picture with me or any of this. Thanks Bryan Another thing here...THESE ARE NOT STOLEN!!!!!!!!!!! Just entered the market against Hk's wishes and Rules If the statement above (in red) is completely accurate, then there is no reason to return them. I am thinking some Federal laws may have been broken also (not by Bryan, but someone ???)

Exactly what I'm thinking.  If they're not stolen and HK just wants 'em back.....fuck 'em.   I don't think we're getting the whole story here.  Sounds to me like no one really knows if there's any legal repercussions from this, and until I found out if there were, I'd hold on to my newly acquired upper.

JMO,
Sean

Buy American
Buy LW or POF

I like LW

This almost makes me want to buy an HK upper... almost.

Some else call Neils Ilhof....I pay International when I do.  Come on guys....I have a 12 hour time difference with Sterling. Someone call him this afternoon and ask him....'Does the ATFE consider the 416 uppers to be contraband?' It he says Yes, please ask him who to speak to at ATFE to verify and then POST it here on ARFCOM so people KNOW FOR SURE that it is/is not contraband.
If it's NOT contraband.....it's just you and HK.

If it is.....then you just got screwed out of 1100 bucks. (Who knows, Hk will probably still pay).

I don't even have a 416 upper! Well....not until I knwo they are legit to Uncle Sam.

Simon

Quoted: Some else call Neils Ilhof....I pay International when I do.  Come on guys....I have a 12 hour time difference with Sterling. Someone call him this afternoon and ask him....'Does the ATFE consider the 416 uppers to be contraband?' It he says Yes, please ask him who to speak to at ATFE to verify and then POST it here on ARFCOM so people KNOW FOR SURE that it is/is not contraband. If it's NOT contraband.....it's just you and HK. If it is.....then you just got screwed out of 1100 bucks. (Who knows, Hk will probably still pay). I don't even have a 416 upper! Well....not until I knwo they are legit to Uncle Sam. Simon

Let it go already...

I will re-open it, if anyone has concrete info either way...