Nib Bolts- what is the verdict? - Page 2

AR-15 » AR Discussions

AR Sponsor:

Site Notices

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Nib Bolts- what is the verdict? (Page 2 of 4)

Posted: 2/16/2012 1:24:00 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I dont have one, but I almost bought one several times. I'm basing what I'm posting on several very similar reports from different people and a video 87GN posted, who knows what he is talking about.

Just because a NiB worked for you doesnt mean they all work and there isn't something wrong with them. Its like me going around telling everyone a double star AR is better then a colt because mine survived a 5000 round torture test without lube. Just because it worked for one person, doesnt negate the issues other people are having.

The problem is you don't know why other people are having issues. How do I know that people here are properly lubing their bolt? How do you? You're making a ton of assumptions that aren't value added.

I told u how i lubed mine and honestly i couldnt figure out why it was gumming up

Posted: 2/16/2012 1:25:04 PM EDT

[#2]

I'm just saying that if they glue themselves shut after firing several hundreds rounds and sitting around for a short time, then something is wrong, thats it.

Just because yours works doesnt make it them 100% perfect products that will work for everyone because its possible your upper is looser then someone else's even though they are both within spec.

There is obviously an issue when they are lubed, shot, then let sit.

Posted: 2/16/2012 1:26:23 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here is my theory:
I'm thinking that NiB BCG's are acting up when they are in tighter upper receivers. The NiB possibly makes them slightly bigger, and if they dont hold onto oil as well as other BCG's then once the inside gets warm and dirty the lack of oil allows the dirty to dry out and "glue" the BCG to the receiver.

I think you may be on to something with your theory. The Nib does add a few ten thousandths to the part. If the BCG was already on the tight side (tolerance stacking), I could see where this could explain why some are experiencing this problem. If not on the tight side, they don't experience the problem.

it adds 0.000472440945" to the tolerance.

Posted: 2/16/2012 1:28:58 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here is my theory:
I'm thinking that NiB BCG's are acting up when they are in tighter upper receivers. The NiB possibly makes them slightly bigger, and if they dont hold onto oil as well as other BCG's then once the inside gets warm and dirty the lack of oil allows the dirty to dry out and "glue" the BCG to the receiver.

I think you may be on to something with your theory. The Nib does add a few ten thousandths to the part. If the BCG was already on the tight side (tolerance stacking), I could see where this could explain why some are experiencing this problem. If not on the tight side, they don't experience the problem.

it adds 0.000472440945" to the tolerance.

That about half a thousandth, or five ten thousandths. Which agrees with what I said.

Posted: 2/16/2012 1:29:43 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
which way do they issue them to the military again?

I'll take that.

Cause the military always does it the best...

In this case they do

Not really. They did at one point, then they screwed it up going away from chrome to phosphate.

Agree to a point.

Bad chrome jobs are bad.

Good chrome jobs are great

Phosphate is hard to screw up

Posted: 2/16/2012 1:49:50 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here is my theory:
I'm thinking that NiB BCG's are acting up when they are in tighter upper receivers. The NiB possibly makes them slightly bigger, and if they dont hold onto oil as well as other BCG's then once the inside gets warm and dirty the lack of oil allows the dirty to dry out and "glue" the BCG to the receiver.

I think you may be on to something with your theory. The Nib does add a few ten thousandths to the part. If the BCG was already on the tight side (tolerance stacking), I could see where this could explain why some are experiencing this problem. If not on the tight side, they don't experience the problem.

it adds 0.000472440945" to the tolerance.

That about half a thousandth, or five ten thousandths. Which agrees with what I said.

Do you have any data to back up this theory? I don't recall EVER hearing about this in the years NiB has been used. You would think that if i was a tolerance stacking issue that it would have shown up before. What are the typical tolerance clearances in the upper/BCG/Extension area?

Also if you will note in the video Andrew said that the problem was fixed by lubing the gas ring area. Not the bolt face, not the extension, not the carrier rails.

I think it is pretty obvious what caused the issue as reported... there was no lube, the carbon stuck to the bolt and carrier and fused to itself, creating a bond. Then you notice that he did not fully charge the bolt when showing the results after lubrication. I wonder what would have happened if he charged the bolt the proper way at that time. See? I can create a theory too.

There has not been documented multiple instances of this, only anecdotal stories and repeated parroting.

No one knows exactly what factors contributed to the instances in question. And until it is able to be repeated by multiple people under multiple instances and the problem identified and confirmed then this is just silly conjecture with no technical merit.

Posted: 2/16/2012 1:52:37 PM EDT

[#7]

The thing is durabo is that I dont see anyone having these issues with Chrome and phosphate BCGs which have been around for 30+ years.

Posted: 2/16/2012 1:59:02 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here is my theory:
I'm thinking that NiB BCG's are acting up when they are in tighter upper receivers. The NiB possibly makes them slightly bigger, and if they dont hold onto oil as well as other BCG's then once the inside gets warm and dirty the lack of oil allows the dirty to dry out and "glue" the BCG to the receiver.

I think you may be on to something with your theory. The Nib does add a few ten thousandths to the part. If the BCG was already on the tight side (tolerance stacking), I could see where this could explain why some are experiencing this problem. If not on the tight side, they don't experience the problem.

it adds 0.000472440945" to the tolerance.

That about half a thousandth, or five ten thousandths. Which agrees with what I said.

Do you have any data to back up this theory? I don't recall EVER hearing about this in the years NiB has been used. You would think that if i was a tolerance stacking issue that it would have shown up before. What are the typical tolerance clearances in the upper/BCG/Extension area?

Also if you will note in the video Andrew said that the problem was fixed by lubing the gas ring area. Not the bolt face, not the extension, not the carrier rails.

I think it is pretty obvious what caused the issue as reported... there was no lube, the carbon stuck to the bolt and carrier and fused to itself, creating a bond. Then you notice that he did not fully charge the bolt when showing the results after lubrication. I wonder what would have happened if he charged the bolt the proper way at that time. See? I can create a theory too.

There has not been documented multiple instances of this, only anecdotal stories and repeated parroting.

No one knows exactly what factors contributed to the instances in question. And until it is able to be repeated by multiple people under multiple instances and the problem identified and confirmed then this is just silly conjecture with no technical merit.

No, I don't have any data to back up the THEORY. Nor did I claim the theory was in FACT what was happening. I merely said that he COULD be on to something. So, cool your jets Mr. internet police.

Posted: 2/16/2012 2:04:01 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
The thing is durabo is that I dont see anyone having these issues with Chrome and phosphate BCGs which have been around for 30+ years.

Your comparison is flawed. People have circumstantial issue with chrome and phosphate BCGs all the time.

In order to compare this "issue" with standard or chrome BCGs you would have to

1. Run X amount of rounds without lube in a standard BCG, allow a controlled testing enviroment (ammo,weather,humidity,time, same upper/barrel etc), do not clean, let rifle sit for Y amount of time, record results.
2. Run X amount of rounds without lube in a Chrome BCG.allow a controlled testing enviroment (ammo,weather,humidity,time, same upper/barrel etc), do not clean, let rifle sit for Y amount of time, record results.
3. Run X amount of rounds without lube in a NiB BCG, allow a controlled testing enviroment (ammo,weather,humidity,time, same upper/barrel etc), do not clean, let rifle sit for Y amount of time, record results.

Then do that about 500 more times each. Record and compare results.

Posted: 2/16/2012 2:08:09 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

No, I don't have any data to back up the THEORY. Nor did I claim the theory was in FACT what was happening. I merely said that he COULD be on to something. So, cool your jets Mr. internet police.

I think you are attributing a little bit too much emotion to my responses. I don't need to cool my jets because they aren't even lukewarm. I am just merely pointing out what I feel is flawed in this discussion. I am not telling you to shut up or stop posting your theories based on no technical merit or data... Im just saying that is what they are. No emotion really behind it or even any hurt feelings... and certainly no bad intent.

What exactly is Internet Police?

Posted: 2/16/2012 2:15:16 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

No, I don't have any data to back up the THEORY. Nor did I claim the theory was in FACT what was happening. I merely said that he COULD be on to something. So, cool your jets Mr. internet police.

I think you are attributing a little bit too much emotion to my responses. I don't need to cool my jets because they aren't even lukewarm. I am just merely pointing out what I feel is flawed in this discussion. I am not telling you to shut up or stop posting your theories based on no technical merit or data... Im just saying that is what they are. No emotion really behind it or even any hurt feelings... and certainly no bad intent.

What exactly is Internet Police?

I meant no bad intent either. It's all good.

Posted: 2/16/2012 2:22:45 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

No, I don't have any data to back up the THEORY. Nor did I claim the theory was in FACT what was happening. I merely said that he COULD be on to something. So, cool your jets Mr. internet police.

I think you are attributing a little bit too much emotion to my responses. I don't need to cool my jets because they aren't even lukewarm. I am just merely pointing out what I feel is flawed in this discussion. I am not telling you to shut up or stop posting your theories based on no technical merit or data... Im just saying that is what they are. No emotion really behind it or even any hurt feelings... and certainly no bad intent.

What exactly is Internet Police?

I meant no bad intent either. It's all good.

Posted: 2/16/2012 2:29:11 PM EDT

[#13]

That doesnt matter. The fact is that NiB is WORSE then a phosphate bolt. It was phosphate or chrome that WOULDN'T HAPPEN

That statement of 'fact' is shown to be wrong every single day.

Posted: 2/16/2012 2:30:19 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

That doesnt matter. The fact is that NiB is WORSE then a phosphate bolt. It was phosphate or chrome that WOULDN'T HAPPEN

That statement of 'fact' is shown to be wrong every single day.

Yet I see people having these issues with NiB BCG's and not others, so what else could be the problem?

Posted: 2/16/2012 2:30:43 PM EDT

[#15]

So durabo, let me ask you this. If you had an already tight fitting BCG, and then you add half a thousandth coating (which adds one thousandth to the diameter), do you think this could cause a problem similar to what some are reporting?

Conversely, if you had a loose fitting BCG, and you add the same one thousandth to the diameter, does it make sense you might not see any problem?

Posted: 2/16/2012 2:38:33 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
I'm just saying that if they glue themselves shut after firing several hundreds rounds and sitting around for a short time, then something is wrong, thats it.

Just because yours works doesnt make it them 100% perfect products that will work for everyone because its possible your upper is looser then someone else's even though they are both within spec.

There is obviously an issue when they are lubed, shot, then let sit.

Funny, I've never seen it, and almost all my friends and I run NiB uppers and bcgs. Most are suppressed sbrs,a couple are full auto.

Posted: 2/16/2012 2:43:20 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

That doesnt matter. The fact is that NiB is WORSE then a phosphate bolt. It was phosphate or chrome that WOULDN'T HAPPEN

That statement of 'fact' is shown to be wrong every single day.

Yet I see people having these issues with NiB BCG's and not others, so what else could be the problem?

How many have you actually seen in real life? I've seen far more issues with phosphate bcgs than I have NiB. And I have a lot of actual experience in real life with many different NiB rifles.

Posted: 2/16/2012 3:00:48 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
So durabo, let me ask you this. If you had an already tight fitting BCG, and then you add half a thousandth coating (which adds one thousandth to the diameter), do you think this could cause a problem similar to what some are reporting?

Conversely, if you had a loose fitting BCG, and you add the same one thousandth to the diameter, does it make sense you might not see any problem?

I think the tolerances involved would make that situation highly unlikely. What part are you considering would be effected enough by 12 microns to create this? Based on the video it appears the gas ring area is the place where this bond is formed... the gas rings themselves are much larger than 12 microns and if the bolt was oversize enough for 12 microns to create a tolerance issue then the gas rings would have done that to begin with, and this would have created an issue in proper function of the rifle.

I also think that the natural wearing of the parts would be enough to smooth out a tolerance issue like that within the amount of rounds needed to create the carbon bond to the point where it cannot be easily broken. And yeah, if those tolerances were that tight to begin with then there probably would have been function issues during the firing time.

Im no expert and I can see that there are ALOT of variables in this which would have to be addressed in order to properly form an expert opinion....which im not qualified for anyways, nor do I have the go/no go specs on the tolerances in question... so yeah, take my opinion on this for what it is worth, not much.

Posted: 2/16/2012 3:10:40 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I dont have one, but I almost bought one several times. I'm basing what I'm posting on several very similar reports from different people and a video 87GN posted, who knows what he is talking about.

Just because a NiB worked for you doesnt mean they all work and there isn't something wrong with them. Its like me going around telling everyone a double star AR is better then a colt because mine survived a 5000 round torture test without lube. Just because it worked for one person, doesnt negate the issues other people are having.

The problem is you don't know why other people are having issues. How do I know that people here are properly lubing their bolt? How do you? You're making a ton of assumptions that aren't value added.

I told u how i lubed mine and honestly i couldnt figure out why it was gumming up

I know you did, and I thank you for giving me your personal experience. My comment was simply to point out that there are people here who are regurgitating whatever they've seen as fact, instead of using personal experience.

Posted: 2/16/2012 3:14:35 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

That doesnt matter. The fact is that NiB is WORSE then a phosphate bolt. It was phosphate or chrome that WOULDN'T HAPPEN

That statement of 'fact' is shown to be wrong every single day.

Yet I see people having these issues with NiB BCG's and not others, so what else could be the problem?

The problem is you thinking you see everything, when in reality you're seeing nothing. What you're doing is listening to anecdotal "evidence" and then using words like fact.

Bottom line is, you don't know what you're talking about period, and you need to stop cluttering a technical discussion because you have absolutely nothing to add.

Posted: 2/16/2012 3:43:43 PM EDT

[#21]

I've had a Spikes NiB BCG in my patrol rifle for over a year now, and through ~3k rounds I have never had any issues. This gun has been run lubed, unlubed, filthy, clean and dry, etc, as I wanted to get some idea of the lubricity of the NiB coating in various situations; I have been thoroughly impressed so far in regards to the reliability and ease of cleaning. For the record, I only ran the BCG dry to test it, I would never leave a HD gun, SHTF gun, or patrol rifle unlubed for any reason. That's just asking for a failure at a bad time.

I finally had my first malfunction of any kind on my last trip to the range, though I blame this one 100% on cheap ammo. This failure occurred somewhere around 2500 rounds through the weapon - failure to fire on a round of Silver Bear. My firing pin left a deep indentation on the primer, but the round failed to fire for an unknown reason. I threw the round out, kept going, and have had no further issues. Quite obviously, this failure also had nothing to do with the NiB BCG.

I will try in the next week or so to duplicate the problem described in this thread, but I don't foresee it happening.

Posted: 2/16/2012 3:45:21 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here is my theory:
I'm thinking that NiB BCG's are acting up when they are in tighter upper receivers. The NiB possibly makes them slightly bigger, and if they dont hold onto oil as well as other BCG's then once the inside gets warm and dirty the lack of oil allows the dirty to dry out and "glue" the BCG to the receiver.

I think you may be on to something with your theory. The Nib does add a few ten thousandths to the part. If the BCG was already on the tight side (tolerance stacking), I could see where this could explain why some are experiencing this problem. If not on the tight side, they don't experience the problem.

We machine our BCG's to a different dimension to make up for the coating thickness.

Posted: 2/16/2012 3:47:06 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here is my theory:
I'm thinking that NiB BCG's are acting up when they are in tighter upper receivers. The NiB possibly makes them slightly bigger, and if they dont hold onto oil as well as other BCG's then once the inside gets warm and dirty the lack of oil allows the dirty to dry out and "glue" the BCG to the receiver.

I think you may be on to something with your theory. The Nib does add a few ten thousandths to the part. If the BCG was already on the tight side (tolerance stacking), I could see where this could explain why some are experiencing this problem. If not on the tight side, they don't experience the problem.

it adds 0.000472440945" to the tolerance.

That's not true. ^

It's a LOT thicker than that, more like .002" thick.

Posted: 2/16/2012 3:48:48 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
The thing is durabo is that I dont see anyone having these issues with Chrome and phosphate BCGs which have been around for 30+ years.

Chrome and Phosphate are pretty much the same thing sense Phosphate carriers have Chrome bores.

Posted: 2/16/2012 3:50:40 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here is my theory:
I'm thinking that NiB BCG's are acting up when they are in tighter upper receivers. The NiB possibly makes them slightly bigger, and if they dont hold onto oil as well as other BCG's then once the inside gets warm and dirty the lack of oil allows the dirty to dry out and "glue" the BCG to the receiver.

I think you may be on to something with your theory. The Nib does add a few ten thousandths to the part. If the BCG was already on the tight side (tolerance stacking), I could see where this could explain why some are experiencing this problem. If not on the tight side, they don't experience the problem.

it adds 0.000472440945" to the tolerance.

That's not true. ^

It's a LOT thicker than that, more like .002" thick.

I was basing that on Fail Zero's statement that the thickness they use on firearms components is typically 12 microns thick. This was said on M4C in their industry forum when it still existed. I defer to you though, since you guys have much more of a working relationship with it than I.

Posted: 2/16/2012 4:00:21 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm just saying that if they glue themselves shut after firing several hundreds rounds and sitting around for a short time, then something is wrong, thats it.

Just because yours works doesnt make it them 100% perfect products that will work for everyone because its possible your upper is looser then someone else's even though they are both within spec.

There is obviously an issue when they are lubed, shot, then let sit.

Funny, I've never seen it, and almost all my friends and I run NiB uppers and bcgs. Most are suppressed sbrs,a couple are full auto.

I've had it happen before.

Stainless steel and NiB don't go well together when Carbon is involved. Without lube OR cleaning the gas rings CAN stick. The gas rings either need lube, cleaning, or a coating like Ionbond. People have ran them DRY and dirty without issue but I don't recommend it. I lube NiB as if it was anything else.

Posted: 2/16/2012 4:01:33 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here is my theory:
I'm thinking that NiB BCG's are acting up when they are in tighter upper receivers. The NiB possibly makes them slightly bigger, and if they dont hold onto oil as well as other BCG's then once the inside gets warm and dirty the lack of oil allows the dirty to dry out and "glue" the BCG to the receiver.

I think you may be on to something with your theory. The Nib does add a few ten thousandths to the part. If the BCG was already on the tight side (tolerance stacking), I could see where this could explain why some are experiencing this problem. If not on the tight side, they don't experience the problem.

it adds 0.000472440945" to the tolerance.

That's not true. ^

It's a LOT thicker than that, more like .002" thick.

I was basing that on Fail Zero's statement that the thickness they use on firearms components is typically 12 microns thick. This was said on M4C in their industry forum when it still existed. I defer to you though, since you guys have much more of a working relationship with it than I.

Yeah there crazy!

Posted: 2/16/2012 4:07:09 PM EDT

[#28]

Also IMO I don't believe there is a better finish or coating to use on a moving part, NiB is awesome!

Posted: 2/16/2012 4:08:54 PM EDT

[#29]

Not worth it IMHO

My plane jane LMT BCG's have never failed me after thousands and thousands of rounds...

Posted: 2/16/2012 4:12:52 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here is my theory:
I'm thinking that NiB BCG's are acting up when they are in tighter upper receivers. The NiB possibly makes them slightly bigger, and if they dont hold onto oil as well as other BCG's then once the inside gets warm and dirty the lack of oil allows the dirty to dry out and "glue" the BCG to the receiver.

I think you may be on to something with your theory. The Nib does add a few ten thousandths to the part. If the BCG was already on the tight side (tolerance stacking), I could see where this could explain why some are experiencing this problem. If not on the tight side, they don't experience the problem.

We machine our BCG's to a different dimension to make up for the coating thickness.

Thanks for the response. That certainly clears that up.

Posted: 2/16/2012 4:17:05 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm just saying that if they glue themselves shut after firing several hundreds rounds and sitting around for a short time, then something is wrong, thats it.

Just because yours works doesnt make it them 100% perfect products that will work for everyone because its possible your upper is looser then someone else's even though they are both within spec.

There is obviously an issue when they are lubed, shot, then let sit.

Funny, I've never seen it, and almost all my friends and I run NiB uppers and bcgs. Most are suppressed sbrs,a couple are full auto.

I've had it happen before.

Stainless steel and NiB don't go well together when Carbon is involved. Without lube OR cleaning the gas rings CAN stick. The gas rings either need lube, cleaning, or a coating like Ionbond. People have ran them DRY and dirty without issue but I don't recommend it. I lube NiB as if it was anything else.

Excellent info.

Posted: 2/16/2012 4:29:37 PM EDT

[#32]

These guys make one of the best clutchless manual transmissions in the world. They have been using Nickel Boron for quite a while now. They call it a "surface enhancement".

http://www.libertysgears.com/clutchless.htm

Posted: 2/16/2012 4:38:06 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here is my theory:
I'm thinking that NiB BCG's are acting up when they are in tighter upper receivers. The NiB possibly makes them slightly bigger, and if they dont hold onto oil as well as other BCG's then once the inside gets warm and dirty the lack of oil allows the dirty to dry out and "glue" the BCG to the receiver.

I think you may be on to something with your theory. The Nib does add a few ten thousandths to the part. If the BCG was already on the tight side (tolerance stacking), I could see where this could explain why some are experiencing this problem. If not on the tight side, they don't experience the problem.

it adds 0.000472440945" to the tolerance.

Adds that to the tolerance? Or adds that to the surface? More likely adds that to the surface, which you need to double (both sides coated). Now you're at .00094 Seems insignificant, but is it really, when you add carbon and crap there also?

Posted: 2/16/2012 4:46:32 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here is my theory:
I'm thinking that NiB BCG's are acting up when they are in tighter upper receivers. The NiB possibly makes them slightly bigger, and if they dont hold onto oil as well as other BCG's then once the inside gets warm and dirty the lack of oil allows the dirty to dry out and "glue" the BCG to the receiver.

I think you may be on to something with your theory. The Nib does add a few ten thousandths to the part. If the BCG was already on the tight side (tolerance stacking), I could see where this could explain why some are experiencing this problem. If not on the tight side, they don't experience the problem.

it adds 0.000472440945" to the tolerance.

That's not true. ^

It's a LOT thicker than that, more like .002" thick.

I was basing that on Fail Zero's statement that the thickness they use on firearms components is typically 12 microns thick. This was said on M4C in their industry forum when it still existed. I defer to you though, since you guys have much more of a working relationship with it than I.

The FailZero EXO Coating does add .0005 thickness. I deal with FailZero, I had to confirm the thickness a couple weeks ago with Scott at UCT Coating...so your statement is correct.

Posted: 2/16/2012 5:05:13 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here is my theory:
I'm thinking that NiB BCG's are acting up when they are in tighter upper receivers. The NiB possibly makes them slightly bigger, and if they dont hold onto oil as well as other BCG's then once the inside gets warm and dirty the lack of oil allows the dirty to dry out and "glue" the BCG to the receiver.

I think you may be on to something with your theory. The Nib does add a few ten thousandths to the part. If the BCG was already on the tight side (tolerance stacking), I could see where this could explain why some are experiencing this problem. If not on the tight side, they don't experience the problem.

it adds 0.000472440945" to the tolerance.

That's not true. ^

It's a LOT thicker than that, more like .002" thick.

I was basing that on Fail Zero's statement that the thickness they use on firearms components is typically 12 microns thick. This was said on M4C in their industry forum when it still existed. I defer to you though, since you guys have much more of a working relationship with it than I.

The FailZero EXO Coating does add .0005 thickness. I deal with FailZero, I had to confirm the thickness a couple weeks ago with Scott at UCT Coating...so your statement is correct.

Account for that thickness and let me know how your parts turn out.

Posted: 2/16/2012 5:20:23 PM EDT

[#36]

I have a couple NiB BCGs and probably will have more in time. I was reluctant to see the benefit for a while, I now believe it is viable.
I have run several hundred rounds per shoot a few times with nary a problem, I do add a few drops of various lubes every couple hundred rounds.
The majority of my shooting is Russian 7N6 5.45 ammo, is pretty dirty. It cleans right up, and is slick.
I am not a fan of over cleaning, but the 5.45 ammo is corrosive- it gets cleaned using warm water and ballistol after shooting.
My 5.56 (WMD) BCG is not cleaned quickly after shooting, it has been totally reliable and is impressive- cleans easily.
I really do not care if others think it is snake oil, I do not try to make them happy.
It's your money, spend it as you want- you cannot/willnot take it with you. NiB is just a choice as is phosphate or chrome, offers benefits when done right.

Posted: 2/16/2012 5:34:18 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here is my theory:
I'm thinking that NiB BCG's are acting up when they are in tighter upper receivers. The NiB possibly makes them slightly bigger, and if they dont hold onto oil as well as other BCG's then once the inside gets warm and dirty the lack of oil allows the dirty to dry out and "glue" the BCG to the receiver.

I think you may be on to something with your theory. The Nib does add a few ten thousandths to the part. If the BCG was already on the tight side (tolerance stacking), I could see where this could explain why some are experiencing this problem. If not on the tight side, they don't experience the problem.

it adds 0.000472440945" to the tolerance.

That's not true. ^

It's a LOT thicker than that, more like .002" thick.

I was basing that on Fail Zero's statement that the thickness they use on firearms components is typically 12 microns thick. This was said on M4C in their industry forum when it still existed. I defer to you though, since you guys have much more of a working relationship with it than I.

The FailZero EXO Coating does add .0005 thickness. I deal with FailZero, I had to confirm the thickness a couple weeks ago with Scott at UCT Coating...so your statement is correct.

Account for that thickness and let me know how your parts turn out.

UCT Coating controls the depth of their NiB coating by time. The longer the time the thicker the coating. On close tolerance parts they try to hold .0005 and that is what I have based my specs on for a year now and with no issues.

Posted: 2/16/2012 5:38:58 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here is my theory:
I'm thinking that NiB BCG's are acting up when they are in tighter upper receivers. The NiB possibly makes them slightly bigger, and if they dont hold onto oil as well as other BCG's then once the inside gets warm and dirty the lack of oil allows the dirty to dry out and "glue" the BCG to the receiver.

I think you may be on to something with your theory. The Nib does add a few ten thousandths to the part. If the BCG was already on the tight side (tolerance stacking), I could see where this could explain why some are experiencing this problem. If not on the tight side, they don't experience the problem.

it adds 0.000472440945" to the tolerance.

That's not true. ^

It's a LOT thicker than that, more like .002" thick.

I was basing that on Fail Zero's statement that the thickness they use on firearms components is typically 12 microns thick. This was said on M4C in their industry forum when it still existed. I defer to you though, since you guys have much more of a working relationship with it than I.

The FailZero EXO Coating does add .0005 thickness. I deal with FailZero, I had to confirm the thickness a couple weeks ago with Scott at UCT Coating...so your statement is correct.

Account for that thickness and let me know how your parts turn out.

UCT Coating controls the depth of their NiB coating by time. The longer the time the thicker the coating. When I first started using them Wynn told me .0005, then Scott confirmed it a couple weeks ago. On close tolerance parts they try to hold .0005 and that is what I have based my specs on for a year now and with no issues.

Posted: 2/16/2012 6:31:29 PM EDT

[#39]

My most recent upper receiver came with a NiB coated bolt carrier group. Just a perk when I bought I guess. Always have lubed it anyways. Went to the range one week, shot approximately 300 rounds. While I know this isn't a lot, I got lazy and didn't clean my carbine for two weeks. Mine didn't glue shut.

Am I scared my NiB bcg is gonna lock up on me? Not any more than my phosphate coated would. Both BCG have been 100% for me all the time. My two cents.

Posted: 2/16/2012 6:37:35 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
My most recent upper receiver came with a NiB coated bolt carrier group. Just a perk when I bought I guess. Always have lubed it anyways. Went to the range one week, shot approximately 300 rounds. While I know this isn't a lot, I got lazy and didn't clean my carbine for two weeks. Mine didn't glue shut.

Am I scared my NiB bcg is gonna lock up on me? Not any more than my phosphate coated would. Both BCG have been 100% for me all the time. My two cents.

Mine has been sitting for about a month unfired and uncleaned. It's never been cleaned actually. It has about 1500 rounds through it, the first half of which, were lube free.

Posted: 2/16/2012 7:17:12 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
My most recent upper receiver came with a NiB coated bolt carrier group. Just a perk when I bought I guess. Always have lubed it anyways. Went to the range one week, shot approximately 300 rounds. While I know this isn't a lot, I got lazy and didn't clean my carbine for two weeks. Mine didn't glue shut.

Am I scared my NiB bcg is gonna lock up on me? Not any more than my phosphate coated would. Both BCG have been 100% for me all the time. My two cents.

Mine has been sitting for about a month unfired and uncleaned. It's never been cleaned actually. It has about 1500 rounds through it, the first half of which, were lube free.

Ha ha ... are you telling us that its been sitting for a month unfired because its glued shut!

Posted: 2/16/2012 7:18:39 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
My most recent upper receiver came with a NiB coated bolt carrier group. Just a perk when I bought I guess. Always have lubed it anyways. Went to the range one week, shot approximately 300 rounds. While I know this isn't a lot, I got lazy and didn't clean my carbine for two weeks. Mine didn't glue shut.

Am I scared my NiB bcg is gonna lock up on me? Not any more than my phosphate coated would. Both BCG have been 100% for me all the time. My two cents.

Mine has been sitting for about a month unfired and uncleaned. It's never been cleaned actually. It has about 1500 rounds through it, the first half of which, were lube free.

Ha ha ... are you telling us that its been sitting for a month unfired because its glued shut!

lol nope, because I'm a lazy ass that should shoot more. I have full faith that it will cycle just fine, and yes, it was put up dirty and wet.

Posted: 2/16/2012 7:21:54 PM EDT

[#43]

much like anything, the quality of the finish prob depends on who does it. While I dont have a nib bolt carrier myself, a good friends LWRC came with a nib coated bcg and its run like a top for thousands of rounds. It isnt run dry, its lightly oiled. Clean up is so easy, and operation so smooth it got me wanting to have my LMT piston bcg and hammer coated and that is currently in the works to be done by UTC coatings

Posted: 2/16/2012 7:58:56 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

If you run hundreds of rounds through a completely dry rifle and then let it sit for weeks without cleaning you can't expect it to be in perfect form when you pull it out, even in your mind you should be able to see that carbon building up there and then cooling into a bond, think about how the tail end of your bolt gets just after a short range session, all that carbon right there. Congrats you just glued your rifle shut.

i have abused many an ar15 in that same fashion, and many M16's. and have NEVER had one "glued shut" by doing so............

Posted: 2/16/2012 7:59:49 PM EDT

[#45]

http://www.uctcoatings.com/capabilities/coatings/

I think the photos here are useful to the discussion.

This stuff deposits like broccoli –– and although Spikes, et. al. then polish them up, the microscopic characteristics remain.. and that to my mind means lots of extra room for lube, but also a lot of surface area for carbon to stick to if run totally dry.

It is my observation that NiB against NiB is slick as snot. The Spike's fire control group I just put in my lower is absurdly "good" for a standard AR trigger.

But I do wonder about NiB running against some other substance... such as the inside of a receiver.

And with all that surface area... what about vaporized/aerosolized compounds from primer / bullet sealing? Or flash cooked lubes?

I plan to wring this sucker out extensively. I will of course post results.

Posted: 2/16/2012 8:09:55 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:

If you run hundreds of rounds through a completely dry rifle and then let it sit for weeks without cleaning you can't expect it to be in perfect form when you pull it out, even in your mind you should be able to see that carbon building up there and then cooling into a bond, think about how the tail end of your bolt gets just after a short range session, all that carbon right there. Congrats you just glued your rifle shut.

i have abused many an ar15 in that same fashion, and many M16's. and have NEVER had one "glued shut" by doing so............

Neither have I. NiB or phosphate.

Posted: 2/16/2012 8:23:16 PM EDT

[#47]

Fuck it, all this talk got me curious. So I tore my upper down a bit and took pics. Since assembly, it has about 1500 rounds through it. The first half were bone dry. zero malfunctions. Then I went ahead and lubed it as I would any other bcg, and ran a hundred rounds here, 200 there, etc. I haven't re added lube, I haven't cleaned it, It's had zero malfunctions and it's been sitting for a month. Mag dropped free easily, as expected. Pulling the CH back was no harder at all than ever. Good coating of carbon on everything, nothing sticking or binding in anyway. All ammo has been M193. I'll re assemble it, without lube and fire it tommorrow. Then, I'll lube it, shoot another mag through it, and let it sit. Someone remind me in a month or so to go check it for gluing again.

Posted: 2/16/2012 8:30:55 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Fuck it, all this talk got me curious. So I tore my upper down a bit and took pics. Since assembly, it has about 1500 rounds through it. The first half were bone dry. zero malfunctions. Then I went ahead and lubed it as I would any other bcg, and ran a hundred rounds here, 200 there, etc. I haven't re added lube, I haven't cleaned it, It's had zero malfunctions and it's been sitting for a month. Mag dropped free easily, as expected. Pulling the CH back was no harder at all than ever. Good coating of carbon on everything, nothing sticking or binding in anyway. All ammo has been M193. I'll re assemble it, without lube and fire it tommorrow. Then, I'll lube it, shoot another mag through it, and let it sit. Someone remind me in a month or so to go check it for gluing again.

http://i542.photobucket.com/albums/gg420/danwest/1329455684.jpg
http://i542.photobucket.com/albums/gg420/danwest/1329455760.jpg
http://i542.photobucket.com/albums/gg420/danwest/1329455890.jpg
http://i542.photobucket.com/albums/gg420/danwest/1329456127.jpg

is that a NiB upper? i wonder if that has anything to do with it

Posted: 2/16/2012 8:32:44 PM EDT

[#49]

That upper looks very clean compared to mine. I'm thinking my .22 conversion has something to do with that.

Posted: 2/16/2012 8:33:31 PM EDT

[#50]

I am liking the direction this thread is turning, we are getting some good data in here. And good info,

So Tom does this mean you are going to start offering ion bond or NiB coated gas rings? Count me in for a dozen or so

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Nib Bolts- what is the verdict? (Page 2 of 4)

AR-15 » AR Discussions

AR Sponsor:

Warning

Confirm Action

About AR15.COM

Stay Connected

Newsletter

Contact Us