Quoted: They hide problems (like broken pins), you do not want hidden. Because they prevent the pins from walking out, if you break a pin it will stay in place, but it will not be true to the pin hole axis and will cause egging on your pin holes. Whereas without them, the pin will most likely fall our right away. The other problem (remember, they were originally marketed as "Anti-Rotation Pins"), is well, they prevent rotation. But rotation is what you want. By not allowing the pins to rotate, there is a heat build-up from friction, which causes metal fatigue, and thus the pins are more prone to breakage. Then you have the problem I mentioned above. This obviously affects NFA (MGs) owners more than semi-auto owner guns.

Renegade - That's lovely speculation but can you show me a set of KNS pins that have broken from standard use, even in an M-16? Do you have any proof that any of the scenarios you detailed have actually happened while using KNS pins (or any other no-rotating pin design I may not be aware of)?

Quoted: There is a reason after 40 years and 10+ million M16s, the DOD does not require/specify there use on soldier's guns.

Yeah and that reason is, an M-16\M4 lower cost the gov around what, say $150-$200 and they can get more anytime they want. The average civy has to pay in the neighborhood of $15-$16k these days and probably wait 3-4 months on top of that. If I could get true M4 lowers for what the gov pays, screw KNS pins, I would just have a few spare lowers laying around!

Quoted: Quoted: I ordered a set for my Colt 6920 at the same time I ordered my Geissele trigger - my thinking - what is $30 or $40 when your buying the IMHO best trigger available ! Well in this particular case, it's definitely a waste of money. There was a thread a couple of days ago that detailed how Geissele himself states not to use KNS pins with his match trigger. Apparently that trigger is precisely tuned for the pins he ships with it. The KNS pins, being a different dia. actually take away from the exact angles he sets those triggers up with. So bascially you just spent $30-$40 to make your new "best trigger available" worse!

For the High Speed (adjustable) trigger the issue is the circlip that retains the hammer pin getting dorked by the 2nd gen KNS pins.  That's it.  First gen work fine, other than wearing the circlip.  I took mine to a machinist and had a groove cut for the circlip.

For the SSA Combat trigger (non adjustable) there is no issue with using the KNS pins.  

It will not make your trigger unsafe.  It will not cause it to double.  It will not cause your kids to have two heads.  It will not make your stock broker smarter.  

My Lyman digital trigger scale could not tell a difference, on either trigger, between Geissele factory pins and KNS pins.  If anything had changed, that surely would have shown up.  Long term, at worst, the High Speed trigger set up hammer is married to the pin.  Geissele has also said that the circlip can be replaced

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Cheap insurance on an NFA item. Actually they are more likely to cause problems than prevent them. NFA owners should run from these as fast as they can. Please elaborate?  What problems could they cause for NFA specific guns only? They hide problems (like broken pins), you do not want hidden. Because they prevent the pins from walking out, if you break a pin it will stay in place, but it will not be true to the pin hole axis and will cause egging on your pin holes. Whereas without them, the pin will most likely fall our right away. There is a reason after 40 years and 10+ million M16s, the DOD does not require/specify there use on soldier's guns. If my 9mm can't break a 2nd gen KNS pin, nothing will.  From that point on, your argument is invalid to me, as I do not have the luxuary of replacing my M16 at tax payer's expense.  I've broken standard hammer pins twice in my Colt pattern 9mm.  First time was less than 1k rounds, then again about 2500 rounds later.  Almost 5K on the KNS pins, no issues. I do own an M16, and I put KNS pins in it as a precaution because of my experience with my 9mm

I am not arguing, you asked for elaboration and I gave it.

The need to put in quality pins that do not break is a different problem than putting in pins that do not rotate. or allow for them to walk out. I agree 100%, you need to put in MILSPEC pins that do not break from regular usage. The problem is, as bigbore pointed out, the origins of FCG parts is really unknown, unless you DIY.

Quoted: Quoted: They hide problems (like broken pins), you do not want hidden. Because they prevent the pins from walking out, if you break a pin it will stay in place, but it will not be true to the pin hole axis and will cause egging on your pin holes. Whereas without them, the pin will most likely fall our right away. The other problem (remember, they were originally marketed as "Anti-Rotation Pins"), is well, they prevent rotation. But rotation is what you want. By not allowing the pins to rotate, there is a heat build-up from friction, which causes metal fatigue, and thus the pins are more prone to breakage. Then you have the problem I mentioned above. This obviously affects NFA (MGs) owners more than semi-auto owner guns. Renegade - That's lovely speculation but can you show me a set of KNS pins that have broken from standard use, even in an M-16? Do you have any proof that any of the scenarios you detailed have actually happened while using KNS pins (or any other no-rotating pin design I may not be aware of)? Not speculation, that is how they work. There have been at least 3 documented cases on the M16 forum alone over the past 2-3 years. I have personally witnessed 2. That is why there is now a Gen2 :-), to fix all the problems the Gen1 pins were causing. Can you show me any of the 10 million M16s in use over the past 40 years where KNS pins was the solution to the problem? Quoted: There is a reason after 40 years and 10+ million M16s, the DOD does not require/specify there use on soldier's guns. Yeah and that reason is, an M-16\M4 lower cost the gov around what, say $150-$200 and they can get more anytime they want. The average civy has to pay in the neighborhood of $15-$16k these days and probably wait 3-4 months on top of that. If I could get true M4 lowers for what the gov pays, screw KNS pins, I would just have a few spare lowers laying around! The gov would not see it as a cost issue, but as a dead soldier issue. There are not reports over the 40 years of the pins failing.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Cheap insurance on an NFA item. Actually they are more likely to cause problems than prevent them. NFA owners should run from these as fast as they can. Please elaborate?  What problems could they cause for NFA specific guns only? They hide problems (like broken pins), you do not want hidden. Because they prevent the pins from walking out, if you break a pin it will stay in place, but it will not be true to the pin hole axis and will cause egging on your pin holes. Whereas without them, the pin will most likely fall our right away. There is a reason after 40 years and 10+ million M16s, the DOD does not require/specify there use on soldier's guns. If my 9mm can't break a 2nd gen KNS pin, nothing will.  From that point on, your argument is invalid to me, as I do not have the luxuary of replacing my M16 at tax payer's expense.  I've broken standard hammer pins twice in my Colt pattern 9mm.  First time was less than 1k rounds, then again about 2500 rounds later.  Almost 5K on the KNS pins, no issues. I do own an M16, and I put KNS pins in it as a precaution because of my experience with my 9mm I am not arguing, you asked for elaboration and I gave it. The need to put in quality pins that do not break is a different problem than putting in pins that do not rotate. or allow for them to walk out. I agree 100%, you need to put in MILSPEC pins that do not break from regular usage. The problem is, as bigbore pointed out, the origins of FCG parts is really unknown, unless you DIY.

LOL......wasn't arguing, either.  Poor choice of words, sorry (I hate the internet sometimes).  

To the OP and the original question:  There ARE valid applications (although, like fishing lures designed to catch fishermen rather than fish, most of those applications are "user perception" rather than acutal need).  The end user needs to decide if you have one of those valid applications in your weapons.

Most just use it as ARbling!  

Tom

Quoted: LOL......wasn't arguing, either.  Poor choice of words, sorry (I hate the internet sometimes).   To the OP and the original question:  There ARE valid applications.  The end user needs to decide if you have one of those applications in your weapons. Tom

It's cool. I agree, they have a place. But as you say, one needs to know what problem they are solving, or trying to solve, or prevent, before installing them.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ZekeMenuar, I still don't get how you can put pins in backwards?  Can you explain? The stock AR pins have a groove that a spring leg rests in.  If that pin is reversed, it can walk out.   Happened to me at the range a couple of months ago. ZM But there are two legs of the hammer spring, so no matter which way you put the trigger pin in, one of the legs will sit in the groove.

Is this not true? (I still dont get it)

Quoted: waste of money

Not true.

When I installed my Giessel Trigger ( that i bought from you bigbore like 2 years ago.) They would rotate out of my lower when I fired it.


I installed the gen 1 pins and wala.....no more pin movement.



I think of them more as a solution to a problem. They are not needed unless you have a pin rotation that will work them out of the lower.

Ok, here's my story:

I never bought into the KNS pins until recently.  I got a Bill Springfield trigger job for my Ares converted Bushmaster carbine and when I re-installed the trigger, the pins immediately began walking out.  Hmmmm  I had never seen that before.  Remember the piston is bashing against the carrier key and there is a little higher vibration in the lower than otherwise might be the case, so, sure, a piston could have this issue.

I had cleaned and lubed the gun so well that even loctite didn't stick well enough to fix the problem.  Maybe the holes were very slightly enlarged due to the added vibration imparted by the piston?  Maybe I didn't de-grease the pins well enough first?.........but, alas, I didn't want to go back and put more on because of fear of getting it into the FCG.  After all this trigger job is incredible and it feels like a $200 trigger now.

So, I finally broke down and bought the KNS pins.  I haven't even installed them, but they were exactly what I needed to solve the problem at hand.   The "coolness factor" never crossed my mind.

I'll post results after I get back from my prairie dog hunt next weekend.  I expect to shoot 1000 rounds, and if those pins were walking I would have been pissed....

Quoted: For the High Speed (adjustable) trigger the issue is the circlip that retains the hammer pin getting dorked by the 2nd gen KNS pins.  That's it.  First gen work fine, other than wearing the circlip.  I took mine to a machinist and had a groove cut for the circlip.

Sir, I hate to break it to you but you are wrong. Call Geiselle yourself if you do not believe me. I know the circlip breakage story was the reason given around here for a while but that is not the correct reason.

Quoted: For the SSA Combat trigger (non adjustable) there is no issue with using the KNS pins.

That is correct

Quoted: It will not make your trigger unsafe.  It will not cause it to double.  It will not cause your kids to have two heads.  It will not make your stock broker smarter.

Who said it would?

Quoted: My Lyman digital trigger scale could not tell a difference, on either trigger, between Geissele factory pins and KNS pins.  If anything had changed, that surely would have shown up.

Not so likely IMO. I have one of those Lyman digital scales and they are not that accurate in my experience.

Quoted: Not speculation, that is how they work. There have been at least 3 documented cases on the M16 forum alone over the past 2-3 years. I have personally witnessed 2. That is why there is now a Gen2 :-), to fix all the problems the Gen1 pins were causing. Can you show me any of the 10 million M16s in use over the past 40 years where KNS pins was the solution to the problem?

Well then if the Gen2's solved all of the problems then what's the issue?

Seriously, I don't own an M16 so don't hang out in that forum so I haven't heard of that before but I am curious, how was it determined that the failures were caused in the way you described and it wasn't just a case of improperly heat treated pins or some other manufacturer defect?

As for the other part, I really wish people would quit using the "mil does it this way" or the "mil never does this" arguments because they are flat out stupid. Sorry, I really don’t mean to be offensive but what the Mil does or does not do does not automatically make something right or wrong. Believe it or not, the Mil makes it’s fair share of bone-headed decisions too. You have to remember too that the Mil doesn't always makes it’s decisions based solely on performance. If it did, they probably wouldn’t even be using either the M16\M4 or the Berretta today. The have budgets, availability, supply chains, procedures, political agenda's and all sorts of other BS to fight through that we don't have to worry about.

As a recent example, I think most people would agree that one of the weak points in the M16\AR design is the magazines. While still relatively new, so far the PMags are proving to be vastly superior to the standard USGI mags currently in use but yet I have not seen or heard of any effort by the Mil to start supplying the troops with PMags. By your logic that would mean there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current USGI versions and I think we all know that is not the case.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There is a reason after 40 years and 10+ million M16s, the DOD does not require/specify there use on soldier's guns. Yeah and that reason is, an M-16\M4 lower cost the gov around what, say $150-$200 and they can get more anytime they want. The average civy has to pay in the neighborhood of $15-$16k these days and probably wait 3-4 months on top of that. If I could get true M4 lowers for what the gov pays, screw KNS pins, I would just have a few spare lowers laying around! The gov would not see it as a cost issue, but as a dead soldier issue. There are not reports over the 40 years of the pins failing.

I think you are twisting things around now. I don’t think anybody was recommending KNS pins for registered M16 lowers because they were concerned that the standard pins will break (maybe on 9mm’s but that’s a different subject). The issue here is with enough movement and use, eventually the pin holes may become enlarged or deformed which would necessitate a very costly repair on an extremely expensive (and almost impossible to replace) part. NVBGear has given just one example of that very thing happening so this isn't some unrealistic hypothetically scenario.

Quoted: As a recent example, I think most people would agree that one of the weak points in the M16\AR design is the magazines. While still relatively new, so far the PMags are proving to be vastly superior to the standard USGI mags currently in use but yet I have not seen or heard of any effort by the Mil to start supplying the troops with PMags.

Bite your tongue!!!   do you want to make pmag prices go out the roof and become unavailable!

and i am still trying to figure out how the one poster said his pin walked because he put it in backwards.    unless he missed placing the spring end in the groove.

And on the post about pin walk after a Bill Springfield trigger job.   was this also due to failure to assemble correctly or due to lightened springs on the 3 lb setup?  

Quoted: Do you need ...........no. Looks cool, gives you a little joy in this f*cked up world, definate .......yes. Do what you like, not what the herd does. Z

I really like this reply.

I use them cause it causes 3 page threads on ARFCOM.

Quoted: Quoted: For the High Speed (adjustable) trigger the issue is the circlip that retains the hammer pin getting dorked by the 2nd gen KNS pins.  That's it.  First gen work fine, other than wearing the circlip.  I took mine to a machinist and had a groove cut for the circlip. Sir, I hate to break it to you but you are wrong. Call Geiselle yourself if you do not believe me. I know the circlip breakage story was the reason given around here for a while but that is not the correct reason.

I DID call.  That's what Bill told me, as I spoke to him directly.  Amy was out of the office and he was answering the phones that day.  We spoke about the circlip, and how he designed the pin retention, and why using the KNS pins was not recommended.  He also stated that, as long as the internal groove in the bore of the hammer pin sleeve wasn't damaged, he could remove a weak circlip and install a new one.  He also touched on how it would be all but impossible to install the 2nd gen pins because of the hard shoulder on the hammer pin would rip out the circlip.  He also mentioned how the infintessimal difference in pin diameters was inconsequential IN ALL PRACTICAL TERMS to the angles involved in the moving parts as long as the .1555 pins were used, and that because of spring tensions, there would be no measurable differences in trigger weight, shifting of parts, or functional differences.  He did NOT recommend them, calling them "Not optimal based on the specifications in my design", and said that it was up to the end user.

Did you call him?  What did he tell you?

I have confirmed my Lyman digital trigger scale to be accurate by comparing it to a water bag (attach a string to the trigger, attach a bag to the string, fill with water until the trigger fires, then weight the water) and have found it to be just as accurate as my calibrated digital postal scale in the average of 10+ samples.

Thus, my experience with my equipment and individual inquiry with the manufacturer is the reason that I have posted what I have with regards to the Geissele adjustable trigger with regards to the KNS Gen1 & 2 pins.

If I am wrong, then Bill lead me astray (or I completely missunderstood the entire conversation between "Hello" and "Thanks, have a great day", and I have no idea why he would do so.  I subsequently purchased a large quantity of triggers from him for a military shooting team because of his personal service to me with his products.  I also do not understand why you would bother with such an elaborate post and not share your individual wisdom as to why I'm wrong?  Please educate us all, as it may lead to a removal of our KNS pins for good reason.

Tom

Edit for spelling and to add that I'm not trying to come off as a dick.  I'm as prone to rationization as anyone else with BRD, but I've tried to get good data.  There are two issues here 1) The OPs question, which has been answered that yes, they do serve a very limited purpose, but for 99% of users, that purpose is ONLY to lighten your wallet.  That often brings about 2) Can/should you use KNS pins with a Geissele trigger?  I would think, as straight forward and stand-up as Bill is, if it was unsafe or otherwise dramatically detrimental to operations that he would issue a direct disclaimer.

Edit #2.  I just removed one of my Geissele adjustable triggers to mic the pins.  My US Navy Mid Atlantic Regional Calibration Center calibrated micrometer measures the Geissele hammer pin at .1560, averaged of two operators, ten samples each.  My KNS Gen 1 .1555 hammer pin measures out to .1556, averaged of two operators, ten samples each.  That's a difference of .0004.

Quoted: I DID call.  That's what Bill told me, as I spoke to him directly.

Well either I’m crazy or you are but seeing how my info didn’t come first hand and the fact that this is a subject that I honestly don’t care about (and have already wasted too much time writing about) I’ll concede and proclaim my self as crazy, misinformed loser!

Quoted: I have confirmed my Lyman digital trigger scale to be accurate by comparing it to a water bag (attach a string to the trigger, attach a bag to the string, fill with water until the trigger fires, then weight the water) and have found it to be just as accurate as my calibrated digital postal scale in the average of 10+ samples.

I worded my comment about the Lyman scale poorly. It’s not that I have an issue with the scale itself per say, my issue is with how it’s used. Unless you have some sort of fixture setup that keeps the gun\trigger and gauge all in perfect alignment, your results will likely vary. It mostly comes down to where exactly on the trigger you place the bar? Just moving it up or down the trigger face a fraction of an inch will often affect the reading. Obviously keeping the gun perfect still is critical too.

Quoted: My US Navy Mid Atlantic Regional Calibration Center calibrated micrometer measures …

That cracked me up. Have you ever watched “My cousin Vinny”? You’re the FBI tire expert! Thanks for the laugh

After being around the AR15 for so long and having been in the army, I have NEVER EVER heard of a situation where the pins fell out. Sounds like a waste of money.

Didn't have or need them on any of my issue weapons...

I keep seeing "waste of money" over and over again in this topic, and it doesn't make any sense to me. How is $30 a waste of money on a $2000 carbine? That's like saying you can't afford premium gas in your car because you just bought a Ferrari. I can see complaining about a $30 upgrade if I owned a $500 AK, fortunately I can afford an AR.

Quoted: Quoted: My US Navy Mid Atlantic Regional Calibration Center calibrated micrometer measures … That cracked me up. Have you ever watched “My cousin Vinny”? You’re the FBI tire expert! Thanks for the laugh

Nope, active duty Navy.  I brought the pins in and had my machine shop guys measure them.  Just trying to illustrate that I'm not using some fucktard Chinese made crap measuring tools.

I measure trigger pull on my gun bench, rifles held in a padded vice, shimmed level and plumb as much as possible, with the contact face of the scale marked with tape on the trigger to ensure repeatability.  As I compared trigger pull w/ factory pins and w/KNS pins without disturbing the rifle, absolute weight isn't as important as any observed change + or -.  I observed no weight change.

Glad you got a laugh.

ETA: you still didn't answer the question as to what your information is, regardless of source.

Quoted: Cheap insurance on an NFA item.

No doubt about it!  

I guess my only question is if you use loctite arent you admitting that their is a problem and pins do rotate.  So then why are anti rotate pins a waste of money?

imo, 'no'

i'd rather have 3 USGI mags

Where can I find "gereration 1" pins? I think that they look cooler.

Am I going to quit using them on my 14K lower because you guys dont like them??

No.

Point being, use them if you want.. Or dont.. Your gun, your preference.

Quoted: Where can I find "gereration 1" pins? I think that they look cooler.

Rainer Arms has them..

Quoted: i192.photobucket.com/albums/z96/M4builder/bloom.jpg

I 'd

ETA: KNS pins will be going on my SBR build once I receive my stamp.  

Quoted: I keep seeing "waste of money" over and over again in this topic, and it doesn't make any sense to me. How is $30 a waste of money on a $2000 carbine? That's like saying you can't afford premium gas in your car because you just bought a Ferrari. I can see complaining about a $30 upgrade if I owned a $500 AK, fortunately I can afford an AR.

I have Over $2000 in my Go To Defender m4


I got close to 2000 on my Back Up home built  LMT/Bushmaster  M4


Even if KNS sent them FREE to me I wouldnt install them

I love my little thingy wingy...,..and the KNS Pin kit, too.  

Just so everybody know, this company is top notch. I can not imagine a company offering better customer support. The quality of these pins is great and they look cool. Do not hesitate to pick a set up, you will not regret it.

Quoted: Quoted: I keep seeing "waste of money" over and over again in this topic, and it doesn't make any sense to me. How is $30 a waste of money on a $2000 carbine? That's like saying you can't afford premium gas in your car because you just bought a Ferrari. I can see complaining about a $30 upgrade if I owned a $500 AK, fortunately I can afford an AR. I have Over $2000 in my Go To Defender m4 I got close to 2000 on my Back Up home built  LMT/Bushmaster  M4 Even if KNS sent them FREE to me I wouldnt install them

Because everyone says they are useless?

Quoted: Quoted: I keep seeing "waste of money" over and over again in this topic, and it doesn't make any sense to me. How is $30 a waste of money on a $2000 carbine? That's like saying you can't afford premium gas in your car because you just bought a Ferrari. I can see complaining about a $30 upgrade if I owned a $500 AK, fortunately I can afford an AR. I have Over $2000 in my Go To Defender m4 I got close to 2000 on my Back Up home built  LMT/Bushmaster  M4 Even if KNS sent them FREE to me I wouldnt install them

Good for you.  Go get your failure prone titanium firing pin.

I cannot for the life of me understand why these little pins generate so much love/hate amongst folks.

Quoted: i192.photobucket.com/albums/z96/M4builder/bloom.jpg

Quoted: Didnt somebody get banned over this debate one time? I think so

And someone else will, before this thread has run its course.

Quoted: I cannot for the life of me understand why these little pins generate so much love/hate amongst folks.

For the same reason a lot of other accessories get so much press here...because some folks make it a habit to advise what is best for everyone else's rifle due to what they do or not use on their own, they read it here or elsewhere on the Internet & make statements based on that intel possibly just to fit in with the cool guys & gain a following. Most importantly, the operator(s) in the Mk18 thread aren't using them so they must not be necessary, ya? I usually don't oblige the haters or participate in inflammatory threads but these personality types are intriguing nonetheless. One could opine that we should all know better than to act like a bunch of rugrats at recess before a formerly good discussion gets locked by the site authorities.

Banzai, do you know what diameter the pins are that come with the SSA trigger?

Are they mil-spec?

No?

Do they come factory with Colt, mixed with their brand of coolaid?

No?

And lots of folks here still like/use them?  

Does anyone use the KNS pins for a Geissele SSA trigger? I was told they would work with the SSA but not the hi-speed. Also what diameter KNS pins? I was told that the Geissele SSA comes with .155 dia. pins. So does that mean you should be using .155 dia KNS pins as well?