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Posted: 8/8/2005 5:36:46 AM EDT
[#1]
i like mine with gas
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Posted: 8/8/2005 5:45:12 AM EDT
[#2]
Im not in a position to say what its biggest and best advantages are. But to my knowledge, the militaries accuracy requirements are not THAT stringent. I think the biggest thing the AR has going for it is its modularity.
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Posted: 8/8/2005 5:47:14 AM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 8/8/2005 5:50:47 AM EDT
[#4]
+1 Gas.........it’s the main thing I share in common with my rifles! |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 5:53:23 AM EDT
[#5]
I did not say they were not concerned with accuracy. What I am saying is any of the rifles you listed are capable of the accuracy they require. Almost any quality rifle would probably be able, piston, or direct gas.
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Posted: 8/8/2005 6:11:49 AM EDT
[#6]
The benefits of the AR platform are:
Lightweight ammunition facilitates being able to carry more ammunition. Less recoil allows faster aimed shots, ease of training, and more control on full auto. Lightweight design. Currently, thanks to the boom in parts, the AR is a very flexible platform and can be configured for a variety of specific uses. Very modular. Also, for civilians, spare parts and magazines are everywhere. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 6:18:44 AM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 8/8/2005 6:20:14 AM EDT
[#8]
who is that? |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 6:31:35 AM EDT
[#9]
Actually the evolving nature of conflict and combat is that it will be more and more urban in nature as time goes on. Part of that is because more areas are being built up, cities are expanding. Most people live in cities now. So you will see more and more comflicts happening in urban/sububan areas then you will see out on the farm fields and in the woods. I think part of the accurecy issue is the ammo as well, this isn't match loaded ammo and it only has to be able to be shot to what 2MOA at the most? something like that. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 6:40:05 AM EDT
[#10]
I'd rather have a rifle that will never break or jam and fires a .30 caliber bullet.
Avtomat Kalashnikova |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 6:45:04 AM EDT
[#11]
Beat me to it 
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Posted: 8/8/2005 6:58:55 AM EDT
[#12]
Quit trolling... and if you think AK's never break or jam, you've not been around very many of them. They dont break or jam often, but when you've been around enough of them, believe me, it happens. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 7:01:50 AM EDT
[#13]
Mine was a POS IMO. I had problems with it all the time, short stroking was the big one. My buddy has a norinco and a MAddi and both of them act up more then my ARs do. Thats just three AKs that I have a lot of experiance with, I've run other folks AKs and not had problems. But yer right, you spend enough time around ANY gun and yer bound to find some with problems. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 7:04:13 AM EDT
[#14]
Good question... but the AR15 platform was developed for... JUNGLE FIGHTING. Fairly adaptable piece of hardware. And the M16A2 variants are all very accurate for military purposes. Can easily engage individual targets out to ahem 500m, depending on the trigger puller. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 7:05:57 AM EDT
[#15]
NEVER JAMS!  NEVER BREAKS... EVER! And fires super-duper 7.62x39mm.   P.S. Its a commie weapon. Give me 7.62x51mm any day. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 7:06:59 AM EDT
[#16]
I don't think I'd say everyone, but there's a small but vocal group of people who are constantly bringing it up. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 7:10:30 AM EDT
[#17]
That's pretty short-sighted and ignorant in my opinion. Read |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 7:20:01 AM EDT
[#18]
Actually, the M16 does not have its roots when caveman threw the first rock. But, your point is taken. Let me revise my statement. The M16 weapon was devoloped, tested, and approved for service in the Vietnam conflict. Above, someone mentioned that the AR15 platform was soley suited for MOUT, forgetting that is was adopted in a jungle environment; thus proving its serviceability in a variety of environments. The only place it really sucks in is deserts and other environments where engagement ranges can be over 500m. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 7:49:25 AM EDT
[#19]
[
Don't forget, most people fighting against us are using AKs and have a shorter range than that. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 7:58:00 AM EDT
[#20]
I truly wish my "AKs" never jammed. Okay, so they are Romanian SAR-1s. I have two of them that have ejection problems. My Colts run like tops. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 8:27:06 AM EDT
[#21]
No it wasn't. The US wasn't even involved in Vietnam at the time the ARs were being developed, so no particular theater or environment was considered. Eugene Stoner developed the AR10 around the idea of using "aircraft alloys", like aluminum and titanium, to save a lot of weight. Jim Sullivan and Bob Fremont took Stoner's .308 design and scaled it down to .223 in order to have a SCHV entry. The AR15 ended up in Vietnam almost by accident. -Troy |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 8:39:47 AM EDT
[#22]
 I HATE CRITICISM!  See above... I should have said the AR15 was tested and fielded in a jungle environment. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 8:45:00 AM EDT
[#23]
MOC (Minute of Chest) accuracy is all most conventional infantry troops require. If I recall correctly, the milspecs on accuracy for the M16A2 and M4A1 are something near 5MOA.
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Posted: 8/8/2005 8:49:27 AM EDT
[#24]
I htink it's less then that, now to find it. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 8:52:28 AM EDT
[#25]
Most believe that the piston system runs cooler and cleaner. I have personally fired the LW system and was impressed with these two capabilities. The weapon also had less felt recoil. C4 |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 8:55:15 AM EDT
[#26]
If I am reading this right, on page 11 (figure 1) shows the POA to be within 5 inches @ 100 yrds for an extreme spread on a 10 shot group. M4A1 Milspecs . . .unless it has been changed, since the printing of the above link? |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 9:14:14 AM EDT
[#27]
I think the proliferation of gas piston uppers for the AR (at least for civilian use) will depend on price. If the price for the average shooter comes down, more people will probably buy them. With lower price comes more volume of sales and more availability of parts, which would also help make them attractive to shooters. I don't expect them to be the same price as a standard upper, and they certainly cost more to make, but there are only so many people who will shell out the price of an entire regular rifle for an upper.
I think alot of people - especially the high volume recreational shooters - would appreciate an upper that shoots cleaner, and that most of us can't shoot well enough to see any difference in accuracy anyways. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 9:35:26 AM EDT
[#28]
The AR15/M16 is superb. It is the most reliable and accurate Assault Rifle period. In military evaluation after evaluation the weapon has been placed head and shoulders above ALL others.
The one weakness of the weapon is its gas system. The current development of piston driven operating systems for the weapon was driven by the military as part of a life cycle extension and our involvement was at the request of one of our customers. As a baseline in terms of performance and reliability, piston systems undergoing military evaluation have to be at least AS GOOD as the conventional direct impingement weapons they seek to replace. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 10:06:38 AM EDT
[#29]
I can't get the thing to open up, but 5MOA seems a bit big to me, I mean thats 25inches at 500yards. I seem to recall it being in the 2MOA area, but Ican't find shit on it. Maybe I'm looking for the wrong thing..... |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 10:37:13 AM EDT
[#30]
The AR15 and M16 have a lot more going for it than accuracy
The HK and SIG carbines have an inflated reputation as a result of not being sold here in the USA, which leads to novelty, which equates to better to some people. Consider this: Diemaco's SFW carbine went head to head with SIG and HK and outright performed better in the British Special forces trails. Clearly pistons didnt help them. Dont know if a Colt M4 would have performed equally, but the potential for reliability, accuracy, and durability in the M16 platform is much greater than people think, even with direct gas Just about everyone's carbine is "modular" these day, so that isnt really a benefit. This is the SFW for those that have never seen it  
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Posted: 8/8/2005 10:39:31 AM EDT
[#31]
Accuracy, reliability (YES, reliability), adaptability and most importantly. ergonomics. Ergonomics perfectly suited to gun fighting.
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Posted: 8/8/2005 11:03:55 AM EDT
[#32]
When I think of modular guns, just having rails all over it isn't modular. Being able to switch out the barrel with minimul fuss so that the gun can be used in a totaly different roll, now thats modular. (No knock on some of the QC barrel designs and such, but I still think the whole upper switch is still better) The M4/M16 family is still the best in that regard. Pop two pins, pull off upper, replace with new upper, pop in the two pins. That simple. Thats modular. You can go from a CQB 11.5in set up to a sniping set up in under 30seconds. I think one of the best things I ever read on this site was a letter somone posted that was wrote to them about doing PSC work in Iraq. The guy mentions how if need be he'd switch out from a shortty upper to a LR upper when getting to where they were going. Sure it means carrying two uppers, and you don't always have to do that, but I don't think any current military firearm can be switched out faster for mission spesific set ups then the M4/M16. The other thing with it is as Lumpy said, the ergononics. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 11:14:06 AM EDT
[#33]
There are quite a few designs that employ a split upper/lower configuration. The Ar15 isnt the only one |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 11:56:54 AM EDT
[#34]
When you say that the M16 "was devoloped, tested, and approved for service in the Vietnam conflict", you make people think that Stoner heard that 'Nam was around the corner and so he designed a weapon for it (which we all know is far from the truth). It was an SCHV adaptation of an existing design in .308. It was "devoloped, tested, and approved" for entry into a "contest" that the .mil put on. Vietnam and the Jungle were NOT concerns of those developing the M16. Weight, reliability, and terminal ballistics were. Honestly, I am by no means trying to be a critic or beat a dead horse. I just don't want anyone to read what you said and go around telling other guys in the gun shop about how M16's were "developed for JUNGLE FIGHTING", because that would make them sound silly. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 11:57:24 AM EDT
[#35]
 
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Posted: 8/8/2005 1:10:41 PM EDT
[#36]
the LW gas piston system is suppose to be just as accurate as direct gas. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 1:55:40 PM EDT
[#37]
MY BET IS 7 PAGES MAX...
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Posted: 8/8/2005 2:12:28 PM EDT
[#38]
who says a AK can never break they can, but not that easlily though. edited IBTL! |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 2:21:54 PM EDT
[#39]
if it came down to 30 cal i'd ditch 7.62x39 in a heartbeat, like another said, 7.62x51 in an m14 for me.
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Posted: 8/8/2005 2:57:43 PM EDT
[#40]
deleted |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 4:19:17 PM EDT
[#41]
What did you say? |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 4:49:52 PM EDT
[#42]
Since the repeatable accuracy allegedly comes from the bolt, barrel and extension functioning together as a unit rather than separate items. Free float tube eliminates the pressure issue. I would think that gas vs piston would not effect it one way or another.
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Posted: 8/8/2005 5:36:51 PM EDT
[#43]
When the AR-10, and by extension, the AR-15 were being developed, the overriding criteria in the minds of the designers was mass. Sure, they worked on ergonomics, and of course, it had to be reliable, but the thing that was going to make Armalite rifles different, and saleable, was weight. Hence, the whole reason for being of the company, and the name, ARMALITE.
When the rifle actually made it to production the actual advantage that got the contracts signed was availability. With US troops facing heavy fire from SKS and AK rifles in jungle ambushes, the troops on the ground wanted to be able to return rapid fire in a controllable, yet effective fashion. The only rifle that was ready for production and that had been through military trials with favourable results was the AR-15. Hence, the whole pie went to Colt's by default. Over the last twenty years, the advantage that has kept the AR-15 in its prominent position is economics. With millions of rifles in circulation, and the supporting development work, spare parts, training and ammunition, there is a huge investment tied up in this rifle. Even if every other 5.56mm rifle on earth was somewhat better than the AR-15, the fact is the powers that be are not going to switch, because the small potential advantages available cannot justify the billions of dollars in cost it would require to throw the AR-15 away. So what is the real advantage of the AR-15? That depends on who you are, but I bet that all the designers, soldiers and accountants would agree on one thing: nobody gives a royal rat's ass about accuracy. As long as it shoots reasonably well, like less than 6MOA, it is good enough. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 6:24:38 PM EDT
[#44]
And its even got a carrying handle just like a briefcase,so I can feel like a businessman,even though I never graduated college.
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Posted: 8/8/2005 9:45:03 PM EDT
[#45]
Doesnt matter, wasnt rude or anything, I'm just tired of reading and talking about LW so I dont want to add fuel that would make this into another LW sales thread. Lord knows there are 100 of them already |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 4:18:03 AM EDT
[#46]
This I know, but the AR to me is the easiest one to change stuff out on. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 4:20:51 AM EDT
[#47]
That gun can't do a damn thing the current M16/M4 family can't. Did you see the section on barrel change? It said in under 5 mins they could change the barrel configuration. I can do it in under 30 seconds with the M4/M16/AR15. There is nothing the next generation wonder guns can do that the current system can't. |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 5:50:33 AM EDT
[#48]
As far as accuracy is concerned, the Leitner-Wise gas piston AR-15's have not degraded nor improved in avvuracy. That being said, user member az_larry has experienced a 100 FPS increase in velocity with his 10.5 in Leitner-Wise gas piston conversion.
www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=121&t=249960&page=13 |
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Posted: 8/9/2005 5:58:22 AM EDT
[#49]
Well I'd say thats plus.
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Posted: 8/9/2005 7:44:17 AM EDT
[#50]
Likewise. 
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