VLTOR A5 all the things

Nothing wrong with 4140 for a bolt gun or slow rate of fire.  4150 is better for higher rate of fire - throat erosion from heat when the barrel doesn't get a chance to cool down.  Often 4140 barrels are nitride treated.  This makes them last a lot longer in high rate of fire where throat erosion becomes a problem.  They can be close, but not quite as good as 4150 chrome lined barrels.  As you probably know there is lots of debate on that issue, but 4140 nitride comes close.

Great deal on the 16" but hardly anyone wants keymod or the 18" LPR. By far the most popular Knights are the 11.5 & 14.5, which yeah, will cost you $3k plus right now unless you dig deep, backorder, stumble across a deal. Just don't look at GunBroker! Haha.

That's what's funny, FN will make better barrels for sale on the commercial market than what they build their commercial lines with. But agreed that it's a rather small difference and one that has been argued ad nauseum for every bit of the 16yrs I've been hanging around here.

Marty Daniel has said on numerous occasions one of the reasons his prices are higher is due to the high level of QC they put into their products. All of their parts that fail are thrown away/recycled rather than sold at a discount as “blems” like other manufacturers.

This isn’t to say that an out of spec part has never made it out the door, but if you scroll through these forums, I think you’ll find that there are very few posts about D rifles being out of spec or broken. That right there is worth a little extra money in my opinion.

Likewise, if you scroll through forums you will find TONS of posts about home-built rifles that don’t don’t function reliably and the OP is asking for advice on how to fix. Due to the wide range of knowledge and experience in any open forum, a quick diagnosis and fix is rarely offered.

I see a lot of suggestions for buying an upper and then piecing together a cheap, shitty lower using cheap shitty parts. Why? To save $100-150? And then spend more swapping parts that don’t fit, or fixing something that doesn’t work. In regards to the CMMG LPK - it’s pure trash. I jumped on that bandwagon several years ago because it’s inexpensive and you can pick the level of completion you want which is pretty convenient. I mean, who doesn’t want to save $7.50 by leaving out the trigger group? But it’s absolute garbage. I bought 10 of them just to have extras on hand. I’ve used 3 of them and on all 3 rifles, those parts are the first to rust. Best I can tell, they use a black oxide coating. I made the mistake of leaving one of my rifles in a damp bag that got wet when I got caught in the rain hog hunting. I left it in there all day Saturday and on to Sunday night. When I took it out of the bag, the safety, pivot pin, break down pin, mag release, and bolt release all had rust on it. My other rifle (factory Colt) had not a single speck of rust anywhere even though it was in the exact same bag. Also, every gun with a CMMG LPK has an unusually hard-to-actuate safety. I don’t know if the detention springs are extra stiff, the divots are extra deep, or what, but I hate how hard the safeties are to use. Even when I use an aftermarket safety lever, it’s still hard. CMMG LPK’s are inexpensive because they’re cheap.

The comment about DD rifles being nearly as expensive as a KAC once furniture and trigger are swapped is just ridiculous. I challenge anyone to find an SR-15 M-Lok for under $2500 delivered to your FFL. Sol has the DD v7 version listed at $1870. He constantly gives out discount codes for his site so at almost any given time, this could be had for $1800. $100 for a decent trigger, $75 for a decent stock if you’re the type that prefers form over function (not hating, I’d throw that ugly ass thing in the trash), and $25 FFL fee and you’re at $2000. That’s still $500 less than an SR-15. That’s not exactly chump change.

https://www.rooftopdefense.com/product/daniel-defense-ddm4v7-16-rifle/

Overall, buying a factory rifle will give you quality components throughout, rather than quality in the upper and cheap stuff in the lower, it will come with a warranty so on the small chance that something is defective, you send it back and they fix it rather than you asking here and getting 347 different opinions on what you should do or should have done differently to begin with.

Peace of mind is worth a lot, and peace is never free. I say get the whole rifle and be done.

There's a thread on here about a range in Henderson, NV I think. As far as DD durability goes that's the thread to read:

Found it...

Their barrels are used in the URGI and lasted 30,000+ rounds in Crane’s testing.

So…I have time. What is the extensive list of why Daniel Defense is so much better bar none than most? I have heard quality control being one. I have heard about nitride depth. I have heard about 4140 vs 4150. I bet they have more accurate barrels?

Look, I have a palmetto state armory that has never given me an issue.

If I fire a ton of rounds in a short time as if I were on a deployment how does a Daniel Defense do a better job not quitting on me than a plain rack grade USGI M4? Magazines and maintenance aside. Say I have a plain brand new M4 factory new on the way to the Army.

Sell me the idea. I am convinced it is marketing mainly with some slightly better finishes and a slightly better barrel. I think the “military pedigree,” point is silly. I can now see that according to crane they have lasted over 30,000 rounds. Is that firing a bullet down the barrel like a hotdog down a hallway or a group. Is that 30,000 then blowing up. Is 20,000 or 10,000 in a lower quality barrel shot out or blowing up at that point? As a rail doesn’t equate to a fully battle tested rifle. I’m not doubting it works. I just want to know how this company has slapped a supreme sticker on the side and people spend so much on them. Yet our FN and Colt M4s work pretty well so long as parts are in spec and they have good mags and bolts.

Looks like the RS bolt catch/release operates as the LS does and not just a bolt-drop button. I have to say that is a very nice touch.

I personally, have had nothing but fantastic results with DD barrels. They are very robust, accurate and well gassed (the ones I have). They make great stuff all around. I would drop $1500 on a factory DD rifle and not think twice. However, I can build something as good, with a DD barrel for half the price

I've owned my DDM4V1 since 2011 and it is a workhorse.  It's not too heavy, it has rail space to spare, and I can put my light at the top front where I prefer it.  I can't say how many thousands of rounds have been through it right now but it has been 100% reliable from day 1.

It's not light and it's not the latest and greatest but it is my go to AR.  I have a BCM standard profile 16 inch AR that I like as well as a Colt 6720 that is nice and light KISS carbine.  

If you told me tonight I was headed to Ukraine the DDM4V1 with an H1 would be what I would take without a second thought.  It's not even close.

Just my opinion.

I picked up a Saint for truck gun and for the price it's been a fucking machine.

Which ever place you got those screen shots from will not have a single one in stock at those prices.  Add at least $1000 to be near current market.

Unclever - I've now built 6-7 lowers using a variety of LPK's from Aeroprecision, CMMG, and no-names from Primary Arms and Joe Bob's all of which I suspect would meet your definition of "shitty".  I've used Aeroprecision lowers, Spikes Tactical lowers and even PSA lowers.  Some lowers have only have a couple of hundred rounds through them, others thousands and thousands of rounds through them.  Do you know how many issues I've had with any of these lowers? Zero.  Nada.  None.  I mean with a lower parts kit we're basically talking about springs and detent pins (I don't buy LPKs with triggers).  Not a whole lot to go wrong.  Maybe KAC, LMT, DD dip their springs and detent pins in the tears of unicorns, making them indestructible, but I've never noticed any difference in performance.

However, to me the real benefit of building my own lower is not necessarily that I will save a couple of bucks, but that I can choose where to spend my money.  None of my guns have stock triggers.  Depending on what I'm going to do with the gun I generally run LaRue or Geissele.  Not sure how either of these stack up to DD or KAC, but I know exactly what to expect when I put in one of these triggers.  I also generally upgrade the buffer spring and like being able to choose my own buffer weight.  Same thing with stocks ... I know what I like.  

And, when I build my own lower, I can buy an upper in whatever barrel length I choose.  So under 16" gets a pistol brace (again of my choosing) or if 14.5" I can choose to P&W and run a stock (and since I recently bought a couple of Dead Air suppressors I can P&W a muzzle brake that works with these suppressors if I choose).  At the end of the day I'd rather have a great trigger, a stock I really like, a spring and buffer that are tuned to my gun and "shitty" detent springs than a gold plated LPK with a stock, pistol grip and trigger that I hate.

But that's me and that's the approach that's worked for me.  If someone else would prefer to buy a complete rifle and enjoy the confidence of knowing/believing that all the parts have been through rigorous QC and will work together flawlessly, that's certainly their prerogative.

Attached File

My factory DDM4 with a ris2 was 2k MSRP, snagged it for 1300ish or less waiting for the right time.  

If I paid MSRP and added sights, better stock (sopmod with no qds ugh), and trigger it would be way more than I paid for my sr15.

For a range toy or trainer I'd certainly be comfortable with a built AR, but or something I'd want to trust my life to, I'd really prefer factory built (even if it's a complete upper and lower slapped together). I have enough customers bringing in ARs that don't work made from all very high quality parts, but have run into tolerance stacking issues. This seems to be the most common when they're using parts from a large number of different companies, even if they're quality base components.

Are SR15s in stock anywhere?

I paid 2300 for my sr15 otd.

$3500-$4000 on the EE or gunbroker.

That's about it. People are using pre-covid prices to legitimize their arguments.

Does DD still have massive gas ports on their short barrels? I remember shooting a Mk18 DD upper quite awhile ago that had a .30 cal can on it and it was GASSY.

No, they resolved that.  Unfortunately, I still have one

I used a BRT .070" insert to fix mine.

DD triggers are mil-specish (not good). Geissele and KAC triggers are far better. Larue is just as good as Geissele and $100 less expensive.

I’m glad you e built a handful of lowers with your less-than-mil-spec garbage and it’s worked out for you. You probably own lots of PSA crap and justify your cheap purchases by saying it’s never failed. That’s cool. I’m happy for you. But for people who can afford to buy stuff that won’t rust after 24 hours, isn’t grossly over gassed, and is inspected by a rigorous QC process that you can’t follow in your mom’s basement, you shouldn’t be condescending toward them because believe me, your decisions are not better than theirs. But what do I know?  I’m just a dude on the internet whose abilities and experience are probably even more minuscule than yours.

I would like to thank everyone for their input. I have to say I'm a bit surprised to have gotten over 70 responses in less than 24 hours!

To clarify, this not my first AR, but I only have experience with other so-called mid-tier brands that cost less than DD, which is why I'm asking and the Aero lower I have seems to more or less be on par with my RRA's (and, yes, I'm putting both Aero and RRA in mid-tier). I wasn't trying to imply anything about any other brand regardless of where they fall on the spectrum-- the goal of this thread was to determine why DD's are priced the way they are. I have a technical background and quality, specifications, and performance mean a lot more to be me than the name on the side.

It sounds like DD has a really good warranty, but with them you're really paying for it on some of the components (LaRue and RRA both have pretty good warranties as I understand it with what I perceive to be less mark up, but please correct me if I'm mistaken) and getting a decent value on others (such as the barrel). I'll take a closer look at DD, BCM, and some other brands I thought of in the meantime.

One area I was particularly curious about was DD's triggers, which it sounds like aren't great. I don't consider myself to be a "trigger snob," but if the pull has too much creep or is above like 6.5 lbs, I'd probably be pretty upset given the cost of their rifles. How does the DD trigger compare to this specific expectation?

Once again thanks for everyone's help! I look forward to reading any further responses!

Most DD triggers are essentially mil-spec. Do not expect anything different than a standard AR there.

Honestly, other than the stupid black oxide barrel finish in some models, the Giessele Super Duty's are a pretty great bang for the buck with their enhanced BCG and upgraded triggers for the same or less than DD.

Unclever:

Not sure how I'm being condescending.  Just telling you my personal experience.  I've been shooting AR's for 20+ years.  As I said before I've built 6-7 lowers and owned probably 9-10 AR's over that period of time.  Do I own or have I owned some lower tier stuif?  Absolutely.  I've bought at least one PSA stripped lower, and a couple of blemished lowers from Aeroprecision and Spike's Tactical.  I also own or have owned a couple of LaRues (like their UU kits where they supply everything but the receiver).  Not sure whether you consider LaRue LPK's to be crap or they are acceptable.  I own a KAC upper.  I used to own a PWS.  I own a bunch of DD uppers.  In fact, as I said before, building your own lower isn't necessarily about saving money.  Depending on what part you use it can actually be more expensive.  So for me, I'll upgrade the trigger, probably upgrade the charging  handle to a ambi. Radian or a Geissele and maybe put in an ambi safety.  (I shoot left handed, so those features are important to me).  Depending in the barrel length I may change out the buffer.  So it makes no sense to buy a complete rifle and then replace 1/2 the stock parts.

As to my abilities, don't claim to be some low drag high speed operator.  I'm a decent shot, have been shooting AR's for over 20 years and put tens of thousands of rounds downrange, so I do have some personal experience with the platform.  But I have no doubt there are a bunch of people on this forum who could outshoot me any day of the week and know a ton more about the technical aspects of AR's than me.  I am also, quite honestly, not mechanically inclined.  So if I can put together a lower pretty much anyone can.

I'm just trying to share my perspective on this issue, which clearly is different than yours.  If you want to buy a complete DD rifle to insure your bolt release and the plastic button that releases your mag are mil spec, and then spend more money to replace what you admit is a not great trigger, that's your prerogative.  Lots of people go this route and are perfectly satisfied with their choice.  I'm simply saying I think there is another alternative that's at least worth considering, which is putting together your own lower and allocating your dollars on the things that matter to you.  But apparently because you don't share this view I must be some "poor" who just can't afford anything but cheap crap and doesn't know enough to appreciate quality.

I concur. I have LMT, Colt, BCM, Larue, Geiselle, and Aero. Nothing has been better or worse than anything else. If it puts rounds on target accurately and reliably then it’s gtg.

You, sir, just stopped me from adding another DD M4A1 to my collection. Was legit about to get another and tweek but I think I'll wait for this rail. Not concerned about the ambi lower but that rail looks slick as eel shit.

simple answer here, some people are happy to buy payless shoes and some need more

For the triggers on a DD. The last one I held at the old local gun shop had a Geissele trigger in it. Daniel defense's upgrade is to use an outsourced trigger. They picked a good one at that.

If you really want to ruin yourself for triggers go try the Geissele NM trigger. I got one last week and I think it ruined every other trigger I have. It was installed and tuned/adjusted by a former Geissele employee that absolutely blew me away with his knowledge of it.

I would like to add a DD to the stable eventually. As for now though I’m pretty well set.

Personally I'm kind of between DD and BCM for my next factory rifle. I've owned both but sold both. I'd like something other than my restricted marked Colt and milsurp FN M16A4 upper on a A4 lower.

Was looking at LMT and KAC as well, though I'm not convinced they're more reliable than a BCM or DD and sometimes I see people with LMT BCGs with split gas key screw stakings and other things, and broken MIM KAC safety selectors. Also experienced a KAC that wouldn't reliably run with quality .223 and only ran with 5.56.

This is what I call the "professional fallacy".  It's easy to think "the professionals who do it every day can do it better".  The reality in most spaces is that the pros have tricks and such to do it faster and cheaper, not necessarily better.  I'm not saying DD is cranking out crap, just that I don't believe they can build a better AR out of quality parts than I can build out of quality parts.

If you want to believe that someone working an assembly line, or even just a single person putting together rifle after rifle after rifle can do  better than you can when you're building something for yourself...more power to ya.  In my experience, stuff I do myself almost always has been done with more attention to detail than someone who does it day after day.

I've got 8 AR's ranging from completely built from base parts to complete uppers pinned to a stripped lower than I built.  I don't have problems with any of them and we shoot them all regularly.  I have one (a pistol) that still need the castle nut staked, but other than that, I'd take any of them into battle if, god forbid, I had to. I'm holding off on that to see what happens this summer with the new point system.

It seems like a lot of people are constantly buying, selling, swapping stuff around, etc.  I've never understood it, but everyone has AR's for their own reasons.  For some, this is a hobby and constantly taking apart, swapping, upgrading, rebuilding, selling to pay for something new is what they enjoy.  

For me, I built what I want to meet my needs.  AR's are tools for me.  Once it's built, I just shoot 'em. I don't spend time/money upgrading, pulling parts and selling them.  I've never sold a gun and can't imagine I would.  I have upgraded most triggers (or put in upgraded from the start), but I kept the milspec for back ups. I spend my time and money on ammo, shooting and reloading.

Again, everyone has their own reasons for owning ARs and there's nothing wrong with that (as long as the reasons are morally acceptable I guess).

I do not agree...I put DD in the same category as my Larue and LMT rifles...I said same category, not equal.

Some of the finest rifles I have are my DD rifles.  A suppressed MK18 is the ideal set up.

And to answer your question, yes the extra money is worth it

DD Makes the Barrels used in URGI's and of course the RIS II.

i say go for it. Their grips and stocks are meh but you can sell those and put on B5 or BCM stuff.

I missed the reference to Spikes on first read.  Please elaborate.  My very best AR, a deeply sub MOA precision build, began as a simple carbine M4LE Spikes upper.  Of course, the barrel was replaced with a stainless match barrel, free floated in a DD rail, but it was a great carbine that ran superbly - good bones for the later build.   I have no experience with their lowers or with their LPKs (I like and use CMMG).

I use a Geissele Super Duty as my duty rifle. Damn thing shoots tiny groups and runs and runs and runs.

I know others who use DD rifles. Other than the trigger, they are great.

The one time I handled a DD, I have to say I could tell it was a premium rifle, and it shot freakishly good groups.  

I'm not one to generally pay the premium usually, as an Anderson with PSA kit and a couple key upgrades works pretty great for me.  But if I were to purchase a more premium AR than basic, DD would definatly be on the list.

I'm looking very hard at picking one of these up. Watched a bunch of the Daniel Defense ShotShow '22 YouTube vids. The RIS III rail looks super nice, online of course. I've just got a wild hair to pick up a MK18 pistol, and am figuring out if I want to get a current RIS II railed one, get a RIS III rail for my 11.5" Colt pistol, or get the one of the new ones coming out. Decisions.

I have RIS II rails on my clone-ish Block II Colts, and love the rails.

If I was looking at picking up a new factory gun today, DD would be in the final cut.

You have had a lot better luck than me then.  I've thrown complete LPKs into the trash, because they weren't even suitable for spares.

This is the boat I’m in. Ive built a few over the years but recently priced parts that i wanted for a pistol, mainly Aero parts and a good barrel am I’m looking at spending more money than buying one off the rack.

"Is Daniel Defense Worth the Extra ~$500 over Mid-Tier Brands?"

As someone stated previously, Daniel Defense is Mid-Tier, and the answer is no.

I will buy a DD before I buy Aero. I’m a Colt fanboy and have been since my first rifle was issued to me in ‘96. With that being said, I will buy a DD over a Colt these days.

The ones I own have been some of the most accustate, soft shootings ARs out of the box. I’m not a fan of the DD furniture, but I make do.

I have a DD and an Aero. Next gun will be another DD.

Aero would similar to a Ruger GP 100, DD a SW 686. Both work, but the DD is more refined with much better resale.