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Posted: 9/9/2016 10:09:21 AM EDT
[#1]
Thanks guys, and you're welcome!
Here's hoping I can sneak away to the range today for some live fire testing  |
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Posted: 9/9/2016 10:57:11 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Next up is the HK type. We are already in progress on it. I do believe that Fostech said they would work on an AK type after they were done with their AR version. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
perhaps this has been addressed elsewhere, but does Franklin Armory have any plans for releasing a binary trigger for alternate platforms? I really want one for my Bulgy AKM. Next up is the HK type. We are already in progress on it. I do believe that Fostech said they would work on an AK type after they were done with their AR version. I would REALLY like to see a binary trigger offered for the FN PS90. PLEASE!!!!! |
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Posted: 9/9/2016 11:16:55 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Next up is the HK type. We are already in progress on it. I do believe that Fostech said they would work on an AK type after they were done with their AR version. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
perhaps this has been addressed elsewhere, but does Franklin Armory have any plans for releasing a binary trigger for alternate platforms? I really want one for my Bulgy AKM. Next up is the HK type. We are already in progress on it. I do believe that Fostech said they would work on an AK type after they were done with their AR version. Now that could be fun. I would want one for my 8.5 inch PTR 91 SBR. The phrase 'thunder god' comes to mind. |
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Posted: 9/9/2016 1:31:11 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryWill, you have THE most easy, and friendly manner of speaking. I am SO jealous. You have a true gift. Thanks for sharing your knowledge in such a friendly, professional manner. This assembly video was clear, well lighted, and comprehensive. It held my interest even though I am an armorer myself. WELL DONE, my friend. |
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Posted: 9/9/2016 1:38:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Next up is the HK type. We are already in progress on it. I do believe that Fostech said they would work on an AK type after they were done with their AR version. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
perhaps this has been addressed elsewhere, but does Franklin Armory have any plans for releasing a binary trigger for alternate platforms? I really want one for my Bulgy AKM. Next up is the HK type. We are already in progress on it. I do believe that Fostech said they would work on an AK type after they were done with their AR version. I wanted to see a trigger for the CZ EVO Scorpion. But, honestly, I think your decision to do the HK platform is by far the best action. I support your decision, It may take years, but I truly feel that many of us will eventually get binary triggers for many(most?) of our "pet" platforms. I would like to see the CZ EVO high on the list. I am sure many others would too. |
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Posted: 9/9/2016 1:38:40 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Will, you have THE most easy, and friendly manner of speaking. I am SO jealous. You have a true gift. Thanks for sharing your knowledge in such a friendly, professional manner. This assembly video was clear, well lighted, and comprehensive. It held my interest even though I am an armorer myself. WELL DONE, my friend. Quote HistoryQuoted: Will, you have THE most easy, and friendly manner of speaking. I am SO jealous. You have a true gift. Thanks for sharing your knowledge in such a friendly, professional manner. This assembly video was clear, well lighted, and comprehensive. It held my interest even though I am an armorer myself. WELL DONE, my friend. Wow, I don't know what to say to all of that, other than THANK YOU brother!
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Posted: 9/9/2016 2:16:16 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Next up is the HK type. We are already in progress on it. I do believe that Fostech said they would work on an AK type after they were done with their AR version. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
perhaps this has been addressed elsewhere, but does Franklin Armory have any plans for releasing a binary trigger for alternate platforms? I really want one for my Bulgy AKM. Next up is the HK type. We are already in progress on it. I do believe that Fostech said they would work on an AK type after they were done with their AR version. Nice but also think of an EVO CZ Scorpion too. It rocks better than my mp5 
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Posted: 9/9/2016 9:43:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
95% of our customers are using the BFSIII in a carbine application. However, we have built this out in our A2 sprung guns with midlength gas and found that the A2 spring rate has worked well as is. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That's great it comes with a carbine spring, but what if you're running it rifle length? 95% of our customers are using the BFSIII in a carbine application. However, we have built this out in our A2 sprung guns with midlength gas and found that the A2 spring rate has worked well as is. Thanks! JP tuned & polished spring it is then.
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Posted: 9/11/2016 10:15:23 AM EDT
[#9]
Nice install video Muad. I installed mine in my Colt Lower last night. It went in easily. I did notice that the trigger, when cocked and on safe, there is no free wiggle on the trigger like others and even yours in your video. There is no click, click. If I pull the trigger back the few millimeters it just stays back. I can force it forward and it stays forward. I don't think this is a big deal and probably has something to do with the specs on the lower and the BFS safety lever assembly touching. After assembling mine I disassembled it and used the included lube on the entire trigger, then I lubed the contact points with the extra Geissele grease I had. I reassembled and she feels real nice now. I won't make it to the range for a while, but though I would post my results and give a thumbs up to Muad and Franklin. So far this seems to be a big improvement over the Gen II.
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Posted: 9/11/2016 11:56:15 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nice install video Muad. I installed mine in my Colt Lower last night. It went in easily. I did notice that the trigger, when cocked and on safe, there is no free wiggle on the trigger like others and even yours in your video. There is no click, click. If I pull the trigger back the few millimeters it just stays back. I can force it forward and it stays forward. I don't think this is a big deal and probably has something to do with the specs on the lower and the BFS safety lever assembly touching. After assembling mine I disassembled it and used the included lube on the entire trigger, then I lubed the contact points with the extra Geissele grease I had. I reassembled and she feels real nice now. I won't make it to the range for a while, but though I would post my results and give a thumbs up to Muad and Franklin. So far this seems to be a big improvement over the Gen II. Thanks man! So, I just tried what you were talking about (hammer on the sear, safety on, pull the trigger back), and my trigger moves back just a hair, and stays back. I have to force it forward with my finger. With it back like that, and switching to Semi, it doesn't seem to cause any problems. I think you're right, it has to do with the safety selector catching the tail of the trigger. Again, this isn't causing an issue with anything. I just wanted to give you some feedback, as it seems ours are doing the same thing, if I'm understanding what you said. Thanks also for the feedback on your install. It's good to hear you got yours installed in a Colt lower just fine. I had no doubts it would fit, and I promised someone in this thread that I'd put the BFSiii in my Colt LE6920 lower to show it works. I will still do that, after I'm done testing it in the DD rifle first. |
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Posted: 9/11/2016 3:50:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had no doubts it would fit, and I promised someone in this thread that I'd put the BFSiii in my Colt LE6920 lower to show it works. I will still do that, after I'm done testing it in the DD rifle first. Thanks for remembering! |
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Posted: 9/11/2016 8:12:46 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for remembering! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I had no doubts it would fit, and I promised someone in this thread that I'd put the BFSiii in my Colt LE6920 lower to show it works. I will still do that, after I'm done testing it in the DD rifle first. Thanks for remembering!  You're welcome. Once I'm done getting all of the live fire video I need for my review, I'll swap it into the Colt. |
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Posted: 9/11/2016 8:34:22 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While I get and understand this, there are a plethora of manufacturers who manufacture interesting triggers that don't use the mil-spec "mold" (so to speak). Elftmann Triggers for example has not one thing that even partially fits the mil-spec design, but it's only $269. It has more parts than this and more features, it's actually much more modded of a trigger than a mil-spec design. And is pretty much the highest price you're going to get for high quality triggers. The BFS and Echo pricetags is extremely high, especially with the gen3 where from the looks of it, it's just a modded trigger, disconnector, and safety. Just from looking at them, I couldn't even put it in the same quality category as other high quality "drop in" or otherwise triggers, but for some reason it's much more expensive. This is an unacceptable in my humble opinion. The moment someone comes up with a $250-$300 one (which is what they should be sold at) will be the end for these triggers stealing peoples money. This is however, my E-pinion. Liberty gun works has a $250 bi directional trigger that works great. I have one and am pleased with it. http://www.libertygunworksinc.com/liberator-bidirectional-trigger-system.html |
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Posted: 9/11/2016 11:15:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Sure, the Liberty is cheaper... no selectability and if you want to negate the second round, all you have to do is eject the chambered round AND place the selector on safe - presumably while holding the trigger back (their video wasn't clear on that point). Do that under pressure without an AD 20 times or so in rapid succession and get back to us. Video or it didn't happen. It's not even in the same class.
ahrion is free to invent one of his own (don't forget not to use any of the existing patented or patent pending technology) and see how much it costs. Good luck with that! That's MY E-pinion. |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 9:10:09 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Liberty gun works has a $250 bi directional trigger that works great. I have one and am pleased with it. http://www.libertygunworksinc.com/liberator-bidirectional-trigger-system.html If I remember right, Russ' patent was for a disconnector ratio. For some reason he thought the ratio was the key to a pull-release trigger like the BFS. He threatened litigation, but the funny thing was that our ratios were well outside his specs on his patent and our filing for the BFS preceeded his! He new this going in, but still decided to press us on the issue. Chutzpah! Can you send photos of the trigger you bought? If it is exactly like the patent he filed, I'm pretty sure it's a machinegun. (There isn't a provision to control the hammer on release phase.) |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 9:14:27 AM EDT
[#16]
Franklin posted up their BFSiii installation video, which covers assembling the trigger sub-assembly.
Nice work Jay!!  |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 9:34:01 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Franklin posted up their BFSiii installation video, which covers assembling the trigger sub-assembly. Nice work Jay!!  http://youtu.be/lBoScHvilQ0
Not as good as yours though. Next time we will have to take your lead and use a lighter work surface so the parts don't get lost. ...Plus there's no way for me to get through the whole thing in one take. That was impressive how you did that! |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 9:47:29 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not as good as yours though. Next time we will have to take your lead and use a lighter work surface so the parts don't get lost. ...Plus there's no way for me to get through the whole thing in one take. That was impressive how you did that! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Franklin posted up their BFSiii installation video, which covers assembling the trigger sub-assembly. Nice work Jay!! http://youtu.be/lBoScHvilQ0Not as good as yours though. Next time we will have to take your lead and use a lighter work surface so the parts don't get lost. ...Plus there's no way for me to get through the whole thing in one take. That was impressive how you did that! I thought you did great. Yes, the lighter work surface helps a lot. Also, depending on what your camera is, using continuous autofocus will help keep things in focus as you move around (assuming your camera doens't have focus hunting issues like mine does sometimes). If your lighting is good enough, and your camera allows you to adjust the aperture in movie mode, using a smaller aperture (larger f/stop number) will increase your depth of field (aka range of focus), which also helps keep things in focus when you are moving around.
Getting everything in one take is hard for me too, I just got lucky this time. |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 11:10:48 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sure, the Liberty is cheaper... no selectability and if you want to negate the second round, all you have to do is eject the chambered round AND place the selector on safe - presumably while holding the trigger back (their video wasn't clear on that point). Do that under pressure without an AD 20 times or so in rapid succession and get back to us. Video or it didn't happen. It's not even in the same class. ahrion is free to invent one of his own (don't forget not to use any of the existing patented or patent pending technology) and see how much it costs. Good luck with that! That's MY E-pinion. In my humble opinion for what you would use the trigger for I don't think you need the selectability. You can do effective double taps at the range with practice and the only thing you really have to do is remember to release the trigger on the last shot. Not that big of a deal. After using one I would not pay a couple of hundred extra dollars to have the selector. It is a fun range toy and some people use it for three gun shooting. However, if your purpose to buy one is to go bang-bang real fast then the novelty of being able to throw a lot of lead down range will wear off after a couple of trips to the range. To use any double tap trigger for actual combat would take some training. When I first took my lower out to the range using a Trijicon MRO red dot sight my first shot was right on target and my second was god only knows where. It took me several hundred rounds of practice to get the second round in the same shot group as the first round. I think that would be the case for anybody no matter who makes the trigger. You can actually do a double tap with a semi just about as effectively and you can do with a bi directional trigger, especially with an enhanced trigger like the SSA or the MBT.. My advice to anyone considering buying one is that don't buy it if you think you are getting a fantastic combat weapon because you are not. You are getting a fun toy that has the possibility of being used for combat if you train hard with it. If the zombie apocalypse happened tomorrow I would grab my Colt 6920 with the SSA trigger rather than my double tap set up. However, this Friday when I go out to the range to have fun shooting with my buddies I will take the double tap. |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 11:17:35 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you send photos of the trigger you bought? No. With all due respect if you want one go buy one from Russ yourself. I will give my opinion based on my experience after owning one for the people that read this thread that are considering buying a bi directional trigger,. however, I don't want to get involved in any patent dispute. That is between you and Liberty Gun Works. Russ supplied an ATF letter saying the trigger was legal. That is good enough for me until the ATF changes it mind. |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 1:49:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. With all due respect if you want one go buy one from Russ yourself. I will give my opinion based on my experience after owning one for the people that read this thread that are considering buying a bi directional trigger,. however, I don't want to get involved in any patent dispute. That is between you and Liberty Gun Works. Russ supplied an ATF letter saying the trigger was legal. That is good enough for me until the ATF changes it mind. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Can you send photos of the trigger you bought? No. With all due respect if you want one go buy one from Russ yourself. I will give my opinion based on my experience after owning one for the people that read this thread that are considering buying a bi directional trigger,. however, I don't want to get involved in any patent dispute. That is between you and Liberty Gun Works. Russ supplied an ATF letter saying the trigger was legal. That is good enough for me until the ATF changes it mind. Actually, there is no patent dispute. Russ realized his situation was futile given the dates and his misunderstanding of how the trigger system works. I did find a photo of his product: http://www.libertygunworksinc.com/liberator-bidirectional-trigger-system.html Unlike our product (and Fostech's,) I see absolutely no provision to catch the hammer after breaking on release phase. It simply appears to be an out of spec disconnector. This is technically important since transferring a device that has the ability to operate an automatic function has a specific meaning under Federal Law. |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 1:58:35 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually, there is no patent dispute. Russ realized his situation was futile given the dates and his misunderstanding of how the trigger system works. I did find a photo of his product: http://www.libertygunworksinc.com/liberator-bidirectional-trigger-system.html Unlike our product (and Fostech's,) I see absolutely no provision to catch the hammer after breaking on release phase. It simply appears to be an out of spec disconnector. This is technically important since transferring a device that has the ability to operate an automatic function has a specific meaning under Federal Law. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Can you send photos of the trigger you bought? No. With all due respect if you want one go buy one from Russ yourself. I will give my opinion based on my experience after owning one for the people that read this thread that are considering buying a bi directional trigger,. however, I don't want to get involved in any patent dispute. That is between you and Liberty Gun Works. Russ supplied an ATF letter saying the trigger was legal. That is good enough for me until the ATF changes it mind. Actually, there is no patent dispute. Russ realized his situation was futile given the dates and his misunderstanding of how the trigger system works. I did find a photo of his product: http://www.libertygunworksinc.com/liberator-bidirectional-trigger-system.html Unlike our product (and Fostech's,) I see absolutely no provision to catch the hammer after breaking on release phase. It simply appears to be an out of spec disconnector. This is technically important since transferring a device that has the ability to operate an automatic function has a specific meaning under Federal Law. Whatever. I think Russ would disagree with you but that is between you and him. Meanwhile I will enjoy shooting Liberty Gun Works $250 bi directional trigger and I have the ATF letter saying that it is legal. . I wish you well with your product. |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 2:07:18 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In my humble opinion for what you would use the trigger for I don't think you need the selectability. You can do effective double taps at the range with practice and the only thing you really have to do is remember to release the trigger on the last shot. Not that big of a deal. After using one I would not pay a couple of hundred extra dollars to have the selector. It is a fun range toy and some people use it for three gun shooting. However, if your purpose to buy one is to go bang-bang real fast then the novelty of being able to throw a lot of lead down range will wear off after a couple of trips to the range. To use any double tap trigger for actual combat would take some training. When I first took my lower out to the range using a Trijicon MRO red dot sight my first shot was right on target and my second was god only knows where. It took me several hundred rounds of practice to get the second round in the same shot group as the first round. I think that would be the case for anybody no matter who makes the trigger. You can actually do a double tap with a semi just about as effectively and you can do with a bi directional trigger, especially with an enhanced trigger like the SSA or the MBT.. My advice to anyone considering buying one is that don't buy it if you think you are getting a fantastic combat weapon because you are not. You are getting a fun toy that has the possibility of being used for combat if you train hard with it. If the zombie apocalypse happened tomorrow I would grab my Colt 6920 with the SSA trigger rather than my double tap set up. However, this Friday when I go out to the range to have fun shooting with my buddies I will take the double tap. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sure, the Liberty is cheaper... no selectability and if you want to negate the second round, all you have to do is eject the chambered round AND place the selector on safe - presumably while holding the trigger back (their video wasn't clear on that point). Do that under pressure without an AD 20 times or so in rapid succession and get back to us. Video or it didn't happen. It's not even in the same class. ahrion is free to invent one of his own (don't forget not to use any of the existing patented or patent pending technology) and see how much it costs. Good luck with that! That's MY E-pinion. In my humble opinion for what you would use the trigger for I don't think you need the selectability. You can do effective double taps at the range with practice and the only thing you really have to do is remember to release the trigger on the last shot. Not that big of a deal. After using one I would not pay a couple of hundred extra dollars to have the selector. It is a fun range toy and some people use it for three gun shooting. However, if your purpose to buy one is to go bang-bang real fast then the novelty of being able to throw a lot of lead down range will wear off after a couple of trips to the range. To use any double tap trigger for actual combat would take some training. When I first took my lower out to the range using a Trijicon MRO red dot sight my first shot was right on target and my second was god only knows where. It took me several hundred rounds of practice to get the second round in the same shot group as the first round. I think that would be the case for anybody no matter who makes the trigger. You can actually do a double tap with a semi just about as effectively and you can do with a bi directional trigger, especially with an enhanced trigger like the SSA or the MBT.. My advice to anyone considering buying one is that don't buy it if you think you are getting a fantastic combat weapon because you are not. You are getting a fun toy that has the possibility of being used for combat if you train hard with it. If the zombie apocalypse happened tomorrow I would grab my Colt 6920 with the SSA trigger rather than my double tap set up. However, this Friday when I go out to the range to have fun shooting with my buddies I will take the double tap. It's not hard to keep two rounds close on a body size target at CQB ranges. It normally just comes back to proper stance and controlling recoil. Normally round three (in full auto) is where it starts to get wide - after that the pace settles in and you come back to center. With some practice you can keep a 100rd mag dump in a body target on full auto. My experience with binary is that it controls pretty much the same as a full auto but the ROF is a little slower. I was running about 650-700RPM with Franklins old model vs 1,000 or so on the full auto setup I used to play with. I'd like to try Franklins new setup, I think I might be able to run a mag dump pushing 900rpm with it. |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 2:12:36 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whatever. I think Russ would disagree with you but that is between you and him. Meanwhile I will enjoy shooting Liberty Gun Works $250 bi directional trigger and I have the ATF letter saying that it is legal. . I wish you well with your product. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Can you send photos of the trigger you bought? No. With all due respect if you want one go buy one from Russ yourself. I will give my opinion based on my experience after owning one for the people that read this thread that are considering buying a bi directional trigger,. however, I don't want to get involved in any patent dispute. That is between you and Liberty Gun Works. Russ supplied an ATF letter saying the trigger was legal. That is good enough for me until the ATF changes it mind. Actually, there is no patent dispute. Russ realized his situation was futile given the dates and his misunderstanding of how the trigger system works. I did find a photo of his product: http://www.libertygunworksinc.com/liberator-bidirectional-trigger-system.html Unlike our product (and Fostech's,) I see absolutely no provision to catch the hammer after breaking on release phase. It simply appears to be an out of spec disconnector. This is technically important since transferring a device that has the ability to operate an automatic function has a specific meaning under Federal Law. Whatever. I think Russ would disagree with you but that is between you and him. Meanwhile I will enjoy shooting Liberty Gun Works $250 bi directional trigger and I have the ATF letter saying that it is legal. . I wish you well with your product. |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 3:56:37 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I believe you have an ATF letter that is in regards to a mini-14 trigger from about 10 years ago. I think ATF's current statements requiring additional design work to prevent hammer follow at the disconnector release point is a bit ridiculous and just them trying to be difficult towards the new companies. While I find it unlikely they will go after you personally, you should know that AFAIK Russ doesn't have a letter, he just re-used the old letter.
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Posted: 9/12/2016 4:08:40 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not as good as yours though. Next time we will have to take your lead and use a lighter work surface so the parts don't get lost. ...Plus there's no way for me to get through the whole thing in one take. That was impressive how you did that! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Franklin posted up their BFSiii installation video, which covers assembling the trigger sub-assembly. Nice work Jay!! http://youtu.be/lBoScHvilQ0
Not as good as yours though. Next time we will have to take your lead and use a lighter work surface so the parts don't get lost. ...Plus there's no way for me to get through the whole thing in one take. That was impressive how you did that! It was me that commented about this on your You Tube video. But to your credit you took the video DOWN and tweaked it in post production and RE uploaded it. NOW the parts are much more visible! I PM'd you a lot of tips about backgrounds and the absolute necessity of MANUAL exposure. |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 4:11:21 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was me that commented about this on your You Tube video. But to your credit you took the video DOWN and tweaked it in post production and RE uploaded it. NOW the parts are much more visible! I PM'd you a lot of tips about backgrounds and the absolute necessity of MANUAL exposure. We'll follow your advice and try to do better next time. Thank you for the constructive input! :) |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 4:13:13 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Since the staple trick on the Mini-14 trick did not have a way to catch the hammer on release mode, I don't think the ATF would allow that if asked again today. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:I believe you have an ATF letter that is in regards to a mini-14 trigger from about 10 years ago. I think ATF's current statements requiring additional design work to prevent hammer follow at the disconnector release point is a bit ridiculous and just them trying to be difficult towards the new companies. While I find it unlikely they will go after you personally, you should know that AFAIK Russ doesn't have a letter, he just re-used the old letter. |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 4:36:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We'll follow your advice and try to do better next time. Thank you for the constructive input! :) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It was me that commented about this on your You Tube video. But to your credit you took the video DOWN and tweaked it in post production and RE uploaded it. NOW the parts are much more visible! I PM'd you a lot of tips about backgrounds and the absolute necessity of MANUAL exposure. We'll follow your advice and try to do better next time. Thank you for the constructive input! :) You will be FINE. I know this because of your "open mind attitude" that we all love and respect so much. Quoted:
Quoted:
While I get and understand this, there are a plethora of manufacturers who manufacture interesting triggers that don't use the mil-spec "mold" (so to speak). Elftmann Triggers for example has not one thing that even partially fits the mil-spec design, but it's only $269. It has more parts than this and more features, it's actually much more modded of a trigger than a mil-spec design. And is pretty much the highest price you're going to get for high quality triggers. The BFS and Echo pricetags is extremely high, especially with the gen3 where from the looks of it, it's just a modded trigger, disconnector, and safety. Just from looking at them, I couldn't even put it in the same quality category as other high quality "drop in" or otherwise triggers, but for some reason it's much more expensive. This is an unacceptable in my humble opinion. The moment someone comes up with a $250-$300 one (which is what they should be sold at) will be the end for these triggers stealing peoples money. This is however, my E-pinion. Liberty gun works has a $250 bi directional trigger that works great. I have one and am pleased with it. http://www.libertygunworksinc.com/liberator-bidirectional-trigger-system.html I am glad you like your trigger. You seem to be the only consumer I can find that HAS one. There are NO consumer videos on this. Most shooters simpoly do not want a trigger that hasd no semi auto function...at ANY price. It is like owning a full auto ONLY gun with no selector switch. Not many people want that...or feel safe with that. Read THIS article CONDEMNING the trigger: "That said, it’s an incredibly stupid, unsafe, and irresponsible firing mechanism. With this, you don’t have the option of only firing one bullet. You pull the trigger once, and you better have some where safe to fire that second bullet, because the second your finger slips off the trigger, you’re firing again. The only way to stop the second shot would be to try to unload the weapon, which again, would require keeping one finger firmly depressing the trigger. Fire once and then see someone down range, you’re stuck holding that trigger until the range clears. There is no option to turn this feature off. It only has the one firing option. When you pull the trigger, it takes away your ability to decide NOT to fire a second shot." http://xdind.com/liberty-gun-works-bi-directional-triggers/ |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 5:32:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You will be FINE. I know this because of your "open mind attitude" that we all love and respect so much. I am glad you like your trigger. You seem to be the only consumer I can find that HAS one. There are NO consumer videos on this. Most shooters simpoly do not want a trigger that hasd no semi auto function...at ANY price. It is like owning a full auto ONLY gun with no selector switch. Not many people want that...or feel safe with that. Read THIS article CONDEMNING the trigger: "That said, it’s an incredibly stupid, unsafe, and irresponsible firing mechanism. With this, you don’t have the option of only firing one bullet. You pull the trigger once, and you better have some where safe to fire that second bullet, because the second your finger slips off the trigger, you’re firing again. The only way to stop the second shot would be to try to unload the weapon, which again, would require keeping one finger firmly depressing the trigger. Fire once and then see someone down range, you’re stuck holding that trigger until the range clears. There is no option to turn this feature off. It only has the one firing option. When you pull the trigger, it takes away your ability to decide NOT to fire a second shot." http://xdind.com/liberty-gun-works-bi-directional-triggers/ Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It was me that commented about this on your You Tube video. But to your credit you took the video DOWN and tweaked it in post production and RE uploaded it. NOW the parts are much more visible! I PM'd you a lot of tips about backgrounds and the absolute necessity of MANUAL exposure. We'll follow your advice and try to do better next time. Thank you for the constructive input! :) You will be FINE. I know this because of your "open mind attitude" that we all love and respect so much. Quoted:
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While I get and understand this, there are a plethora of manufacturers who manufacture interesting triggers that don't use the mil-spec "mold" (so to speak). Elftmann Triggers for example has not one thing that even partially fits the mil-spec design, but it's only $269. It has more parts than this and more features, it's actually much more modded of a trigger than a mil-spec design. And is pretty much the highest price you're going to get for high quality triggers. The BFS and Echo pricetags is extremely high, especially with the gen3 where from the looks of it, it's just a modded trigger, disconnector, and safety. Just from looking at them, I couldn't even put it in the same quality category as other high quality "drop in" or otherwise triggers, but for some reason it's much more expensive. This is an unacceptable in my humble opinion. The moment someone comes up with a $250-$300 one (which is what they should be sold at) will be the end for these triggers stealing peoples money. This is however, my E-pinion. Liberty gun works has a $250 bi directional trigger that works great. I have one and am pleased with it. http://www.libertygunworksinc.com/liberator-bidirectional-trigger-system.html I am glad you like your trigger. You seem to be the only consumer I can find that HAS one. There are NO consumer videos on this. Most shooters simpoly do not want a trigger that hasd no semi auto function...at ANY price. It is like owning a full auto ONLY gun with no selector switch. Not many people want that...or feel safe with that. Read THIS article CONDEMNING the trigger: "That said, it’s an incredibly stupid, unsafe, and irresponsible firing mechanism. With this, you don’t have the option of only firing one bullet. You pull the trigger once, and you better have some where safe to fire that second bullet, because the second your finger slips off the trigger, you’re firing again. The only way to stop the second shot would be to try to unload the weapon, which again, would require keeping one finger firmly depressing the trigger. Fire once and then see someone down range, you’re stuck holding that trigger until the range clears. There is no option to turn this feature off. It only has the one firing option. When you pull the trigger, it takes away your ability to decide NOT to fire a second shot." http://xdind.com/liberty-gun-works-bi-directional-triggers/ I don't think Liberty does much marketing. I suspect that is the reason there are not too many of them out there. Russ runs a small shop. His real product is a AR bolt for the 7.62 x 39 that doesn't break at 1500 rds. Some reviews I agree with and some I disagree. I disagree with that review. I have had good experiences with mine and it serves a good little niche in my AR collection. While I think it was worth $250 I don't think any double tap trigger would be worth too much more than that. Of course each to his own, right? |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 5:37:31 PM EDT
[#31]
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It's not hard to keep two rounds close on a body size target at CQB ranges. It normally just comes back to proper stance and controlling recoil. Normally round three (in full auto) is where it starts to get wide - after that the pace settles in and you come back to center. With some practice you can keep a 100rd mag dump in a body target on full auto. My experience with binary is that it controls pretty much the same as a full auto but the ROF is a little slower. I was running about 650-700RPM with Franklins old model vs 1,000 or so on the full auto setup I used to play with. I'd like to try Franklins new setup, I think I might be able to run a mag dump pushing 900rpm with it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Sure, the Liberty is cheaper... no selectability and if you want to negate the second round, all you have to do is eject the chambered round AND place the selector on safe - presumably while holding the trigger back (their video wasn't clear on that point). Do that under pressure without an AD 20 times or so in rapid succession and get back to us. Video or it didn't happen. It's not even in the same class. ahrion is free to invent one of his own (don't forget not to use any of the existing patented or patent pending technology) and see how much it costs. Good luck with that! That's MY E-pinion. In my humble opinion for what you would use the trigger for I don't think you need the selectability. You can do effective double taps at the range with practice and the only thing you really have to do is remember to release the trigger on the last shot. Not that big of a deal. After using one I would not pay a couple of hundred extra dollars to have the selector. It is a fun range toy and some people use it for three gun shooting. However, if your purpose to buy one is to go bang-bang real fast then the novelty of being able to throw a lot of lead down range will wear off after a couple of trips to the range. To use any double tap trigger for actual combat would take some training. When I first took my lower out to the range using a Trijicon MRO red dot sight my first shot was right on target and my second was god only knows where. It took me several hundred rounds of practice to get the second round in the same shot group as the first round. I think that would be the case for anybody no matter who makes the trigger. You can actually do a double tap with a semi just about as effectively and you can do with a bi directional trigger, especially with an enhanced trigger like the SSA or the MBT.. My advice to anyone considering buying one is that don't buy it if you think you are getting a fantastic combat weapon because you are not. You are getting a fun toy that has the possibility of being used for combat if you train hard with it. If the zombie apocalypse happened tomorrow I would grab my Colt 6920 with the SSA trigger rather than my double tap set up. However, this Friday when I go out to the range to have fun shooting with my buddies I will take the double tap. With some practice you can keep a 100rd mag dump in a body target on full auto. My experience with binary is that it controls pretty much the same as a full auto but the ROF is a little slower. I was running about 650-700RPM with Franklins old model vs 1,000 or so on the full auto setup I used to play with. I'd like to try Franklins new setup, I think I might be able to run a mag dump pushing 900rpm with it. It took me probably 250 - 300 rds of practice to get to the point where the second round was in the same group as the first. I am not an expert marksman but I am not a novice either. I have been shooting an AR for about 50 years now. I would want to do quite a bit more training with it before I would use it for combat. However, it is a blast to shoot at the range. Fun toy. |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 5:52:39 PM EDT
[#32]
Just gauged my trigger with my Lyman Electronic Trigger pull gauge. Pulling from about the center of the trigger in semi mode, the trigger averaged 4LBS 3.8OZ over 5 pulls. Each pull was very consistent, breaking within about .5-.75OZ of the average.
So, mine is at 4.25 pounds if my math is right, which feels AWESOME, and is right in line with their claim of 4.5LBS, +/- .5LBS. Kudos to Franklin for the much improved trigger pull on the BFSiii. This was with the mil-spec trigger spring and blue hammer spring installed. It ignited ZQI M855/SS109 without any issues. Next I'll swap out the hammer spring for the heavier one, and see what the difference in pull weight is. |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 6:00:56 PM EDT
[#33]
Great to hear on the trigger pull. Any chance you could measure reset length? I really need to order one of these and see if I can get my RPM up!
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Posted: 9/12/2016 6:23:55 PM EDT
[#34]
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Great to hear on the trigger pull. Any chance you could measure reset length? I really need to order one of these and see if I can get my RPM up! I am not 100% positive but I think the really good runs i have seen on You Tube of 900rpm+ are with rifle length gas systems for some reason. I am not sure if a low mass carrier PLUS a rifle length gas would be the fastest system. People are still experimenting. I don't know that the Gen 3's are really any FASTER, just easier to tune. I have seen some amazing rips of 900+rpm with tuned guns and all using the Gen TWO BFS! What WAS your fastest string? With what set up? What is your new goal? Same gun or different? There has simply got to be a fix for the heavier trigger pull for people who are "stuck" with the Gen 2's. The Gen 2's can be made 100% reliable fairly easily. But you are still stuck with that heavy trigger pull. Hasn't anyone come up with a fix for that heavy pull yet? |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 7:42:52 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great to hear on the trigger pull. Any chance you could measure reset length? I really need to order one of these and see if I can get my RPM up! I think the reset length is similar to a stock FCG, but I'll measure it ASAP. |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 9:41:53 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Will do sir. I think the reset length is similar to a stock FCG, but I'll measure it ASAP. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Great to hear on the trigger pull. Any chance you could measure reset length? I really need to order one of these and see if I can get my RPM up! I think the reset length is similar to a stock FCG, but I'll measure it ASAP. Thanks guys.... Y'all are always willing to help out and educate those of us who need a little extra time! |
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Posted: 9/12/2016 9:43:32 PM EDT
[#37]
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We'll follow your advice and try to do better next time. Thank you for the constructive input! :) Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It was me that commented about this on your You Tube video. But to your credit you took the video DOWN and tweaked it in post production and RE uploaded it. NOW the parts are much more visible! I PM'd you a lot of tips about backgrounds and the absolute necessity of MANUAL exposure. We'll follow your advice and try to do better next time. Thank you for the constructive input! :) This is why I'm awaiting 3 triggers! You converse with us and take what we say into account! Great company |
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Posted: 9/14/2016 1:42:24 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Will do sir. I think the reset length is similar to a stock FCG, but I'll measure it ASAP. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Great to hear on the trigger pull. Any chance you could measure reset length? I really need to order one of these and see if I can get my RPM up! I think the reset length is similar to a stock FCG, but I'll measure it ASAP. Jaq, I finally got around to measuring the reset length in Semi mode. Eyeballing it with my LaRue ruler, it looks like the trigger moved about 3mm forward for the reset. |
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Posted: 9/14/2016 1:48:09 PM EDT
[#39]
Thanks! About .11" on par with quite a few other triggers. Not short by any means but definitely not long either.
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Posted: 9/14/2016 1:54:43 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks! About .11" on par with quite a few other triggers. Not short by any means but definitely not long either. You're welcome sir. Yeah it doesn't feel long at all. One thing I want to note about releasing the trigger forward. When in Binary mode, you need to make sure you're releasing it all the way forward, otherwise during a mag dump you may notice it's only firing on release. I have an example of this in my video that I'm working on. I had some pretty fast strings going, then towards the end of the mag I got lazy with my trigger finger, and the RPMs slowed down due to this. I think there was also an example of this in my original BFSiii release video. |
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Posted: 9/14/2016 4:37:55 PM EDT
[#41]
*delete
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Posted: 9/14/2016 5:19:25 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: <snip> Isnt this coming in and crapping in someone elses thread? |
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Posted: 9/14/2016 7:17:29 PM EDT
[#43]
*delete
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Posted: 9/14/2016 8:46:15 PM EDT
[#44]
Any updates from Fostech? The communication and involvement here from Franklin Armory definitely gives them a +1.
The othe +1 is that I have both a BFS gen 2 & 3 in hand and bupkis on my Echo pre-order. |
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Posted: 9/14/2016 10:45:25 PM EDT
[#45]
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Any updates from Fostech? The communication and involvement here from Franklin Armory definitely gives them a +1. The othe +1 is that I have both a BFS gen 2 & 3 in hand and bupkis on my Echo pre-order. Just read on Fostechs website they are shipping the ECHO in December. It keeps getting pushed back. Last I heard was it would be the end of September now it's listed as December. It makes me sad  . Now I'll just wait for my BFS gen iii BUT damnit I want a ATF letter for my gen ii!
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Posted: 9/14/2016 10:59:11 PM EDT
[#46]
Originally April 2016. One part of the website says "Echo Triggers are currently estimated to begin shipping in the fourth quarter of 2016."
Another part says "WHICH IS ESTIMATED TO BE APPROXIMATELY A 6-MONTH LEAD TIME. THERE HAS BEEN A DELAY DUE TO A TOLERANCE ISSUE WITH THE COATINGS & MANUFACTURING HAS BEEN DELAYED AS A RESULT. FIRST ORDERS ARE NOW ESTIMATED TO SHIP IN THE 3rd QUARTER OF 2016. CURRENT ORDERS ARE ESTIMATED TO SHIP IN DECEMBER OF 2016." Not a peep from them on arfcom or fb. Thank you Franklin Armory for being on this forum. |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 2:20:04 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Originally April 2016. One part of the website says "Echo Triggers are currently estimated to begin shipping in the fourth quarter of 2016." Another part says "WHICH IS ESTIMATED TO BE APPROXIMATELY A 6-MONTH LEAD TIME. THERE HAS BEEN A DELAY DUE TO A TOLERANCE ISSUE WITH THE COATINGS & MANUFACTURING HAS BEEN DELAYED AS A RESULT. FIRST ORDERS ARE NOW ESTIMATED TO SHIP IN THE 3rd QUARTER OF 2016. CURRENT ORDERS ARE ESTIMATED TO SHIP IN DECEMBER OF 2016." Not a peep from them on arfcom or fb. Thank you Franklin Armory for being on this forum. There are those that say that this is not entirely true. That the REAL reason for the delay is that Fosteh does not have ATF approval yet for their sear trip. They HOPE they will get approval by December, Nothing is "in the bag" at this point. What do "I" say? I really dont know for sure. I am not accusing anybody of anything. Just repeating what I read and weighing in. But Fostech's excuses do sound pretty fishy. Then there is there non participation in media and lack of transparency. I am just glad I don't have any funds tied up with them. "Tolerance issues" taking many months to rectify? Hmmm. I DO of course hope they get ATF approval if that is indeed the hold up. But I find their business practices a bit suspect. Am I the only one that feels this way? |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 12:08:10 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are those that say that this is not entirely true. That the REAL reason for the delay is that Fosteh does not have ATF approval yet for their sear trip. They HOPE they will get approval by December, Nothing is "in the bag" at this point. What do "I" say? I really dont know for sure. I am not accusing anybody of anything. Just repeating what I read and weighing in. But Fostech's excuses do sound pretty fishy. Then there is there non participation in media and lack of transparency. I am just glad I don't have any funds tied up with them. "Tolerance issues" taking many months to rectify? Hmmm. I DO of course hope they get ATF approval if that is indeed the hold up. But I find their business practices a bit suspect. Am I the only one that feels this way? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Originally April 2016. One part of the website says "Echo Triggers are currently estimated to begin shipping in the fourth quarter of 2016." Another part says "WHICH IS ESTIMATED TO BE APPROXIMATELY A 6-MONTH LEAD TIME. THERE HAS BEEN A DELAY DUE TO A TOLERANCE ISSUE WITH THE COATINGS & MANUFACTURING HAS BEEN DELAYED AS A RESULT. FIRST ORDERS ARE NOW ESTIMATED TO SHIP IN THE 3rd QUARTER OF 2016. CURRENT ORDERS ARE ESTIMATED TO SHIP IN DECEMBER OF 2016." Not a peep from them on arfcom or fb. Thank you Franklin Armory for being on this forum. There are those that say that this is not entirely true. That the REAL reason for the delay is that Fosteh does not have ATF approval yet for their sear trip. They HOPE they will get approval by December, Nothing is "in the bag" at this point. What do "I" say? I really dont know for sure. I am not accusing anybody of anything. Just repeating what I read and weighing in. But Fostech's excuses do sound pretty fishy. Then there is there non participation in media and lack of transparency. I am just glad I don't have any funds tied up with them. "Tolerance issues" taking many months to rectify? Hmmm. I DO of course hope they get ATF approval if that is indeed the hold up. But I find their business practices a bit suspect. Am I the only one that feels this way? No, you are not sir. |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 2:39:59 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are those that say that this is not entirely true. That the REAL reason for the delay is that Fosteh does not have ATF approval yet for their sear trip. They HOPE they will get approval by December, Nothing is "in the bag" at this point. What do "I" say? I really dont know for sure. I am not accusing anybody of anything. Just repeating what I read and weighing in. But Fostech's excuses do sound pretty fishy. Then there is there non participation in media and lack of transparency. I am just glad I don't have any funds tied up with them. "Tolerance issues" taking many months to rectify? Hmmm. I DO of course hope they get ATF approval if that is indeed the hold up. But I find their business practices a bit suspect. Am I the only one that feels this way? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Originally April 2016. One part of the website says "Echo Triggers are currently estimated to begin shipping in the fourth quarter of 2016." Another part says "WHICH IS ESTIMATED TO BE APPROXIMATELY A 6-MONTH LEAD TIME. THERE HAS BEEN A DELAY DUE TO A TOLERANCE ISSUE WITH THE COATINGS & MANUFACTURING HAS BEEN DELAYED AS A RESULT. FIRST ORDERS ARE NOW ESTIMATED TO SHIP IN THE 3rd QUARTER OF 2016. CURRENT ORDERS ARE ESTIMATED TO SHIP IN DECEMBER OF 2016." Not a peep from them on arfcom or fb. Thank you Franklin Armory for being on this forum. There are those that say that this is not entirely true. That the REAL reason for the delay is that Fosteh does not have ATF approval yet for their sear trip. They HOPE they will get approval by December, Nothing is "in the bag" at this point. What do "I" say? I really dont know for sure. I am not accusing anybody of anything. Just repeating what I read and weighing in. But Fostech's excuses do sound pretty fishy. Then there is there non participation in media and lack of transparency. I am just glad I don't have any funds tied up with them. "Tolerance issues" taking many months to rectify? Hmmm. I DO of course hope they get ATF approval if that is indeed the hold up. But I find their business practices a bit suspect. Am I the only one that feels this way? If the ATF letter is the problem then FA is really taking a chance too. FA claims to have an ATF letter for their older version of the trigger but has yet to release it. So in theory if it's all about ATF letter then you have problems with both triggers. I just think fostech is hitting a delay in release. It happens in the firearms market all the time. Edit...I just wish to god someone would release their ATF letter! 
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Posted: 9/16/2016 3:35:32 PM EDT
[#50]
Just found out mine will be shipping today!! Looking forward to installing and giving a range report.
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