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Link Posted: 10/24/2017 8:04:56 PM EDT
[#1]
I do not disagree with the 300 blackout.  Its just another caliber, and I don't really want to stock another caliber.  That is the honest truth.
Link Posted: 10/24/2017 9:12:43 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 10/24/2017 11:01:34 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I do not disagree with the 300 blackout.  Its just another caliber, and I don't really want to stock another caliber.  That is the honest truth.
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This, plus im not sure what 300blk is running per cartridge right now. But if it's comparable in price to the. 45acp well I can fire that in a lot of guns, not just 1.
Link Posted: 10/24/2017 11:21:10 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This letter clearly states braces count as length.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4486/36691106254_341825ab0a_z.jpgXBZms6s_d by tbrique1,  

Facts=
1=At no time has the BATFE stated anything but the extreme rear point of a firearm is the measurement point, (plain, simple and easy to understand) .
What reason is there to make up stuff and believe it has relevance for anyone else?
2=Barrel specific measurements (pinned and welded device) are exactly that, the way to measure a barrel. They have NEVER had any bearing on the way the rear of  any gun is measured. Why would someone assume they do now?
3=The BATFE has NEVER subtracted parts from a gun when being measured.  Why would someone assume they do now?
4=The BATFE has NEVER stated a part must have any certain function or connection method to be part of a weapon. Why would someone assume they do now?
5=The BATFE has many times stated how to measure a weapon and all methods correspond and relate to the way a pistol is also measured. Why would someone assume pistols are different than all other weapons?
The letter above clearly states how to measure a pistol with a brace. Even if there is a plot that entails forging documents to trick someone all other rulings still back up measuring a pistol the same way. Maybe every letter is fake and the BATFE does not even exist? Maybe everyone should just make up their own rules?
Making up rules and ideas with no connection to anything that remotely backs them up as legitimate (as far as BATFE rules go) has no point to it, other than to confuse people.

Follow the BATFE rules as they are worded. Making up a bunch of assumptions to fight facts and reality is very pointless and only confuses people who want real answers.
Does anyone actually expect the BATFE to explain every part of every gun and how it works, how it is connected and how it relates to every rule they have ever made? Unless something is specifically stated as (different and not following existing rules) it is obviously going to follow the existing rules.
View Quote
I can accept that it's quite possibly the case that the brace is included in OAL measurement, and it might even be more likely than not. Moreover, I've said before that it probably doesn't really matter that much anyway, as no one has ever be prosecuted for a VFG. If it ever is proven completely correct, all the better for us all. If not, someone runs little risk of legal trouble. Be that as it may, I still take issue with this claim that there isn't a single thing left to question and that it's all completely and unequivocally clear how the ATF views this. The ONLY evidence to back that claim is the so-called "Reddit opinion letter", which to my mind is, at the very least, a bit suspect. It looks nothing like any official opinion letter I've seen; it has no traceable source or any other evidence of its existence outside of the one instance. Furthermore, no credible source I know of is touting said opinion letter as the law of the land and advising people to go forth and slap VFGs on pistols to their hearts' content. Normally something like this is pretty big news.

Want to put a VFG on your pistol and use the brace as part of OAL? Great, go ahead - you're likely fine either way. Just stop claiming that anyone who has the slightest question or uncertainty regarding this issue is ignorant, unaware or "making stuff up". No one is "making stuff up". Some are a bit dubious of whether your interpretation of existing measurement standards for rifles and a reliance on an opinion letter of questionable authenticity is enough to state, without reservation, the issue is clear and solved. It seems like a perfectly reasonable position to me. You repeatedly saying "it's been decided"; "it's completely clear"; "anyone who questions this is making stuff up" doesn't make it so. If it is truly so clear cut and beyond dispute, why are posters such as myself, OhShoot and others, who are clearly as informed on AR pistol laws as you, looking at the same facts you are, then drawing different conclusions? It's obvious there is some room for interpretation.

I just have to wonder why you are so vehemently opposed to even the suggestion there might be some unanswered questions here. Do you feel you're more justified if everyone repeats your position? No one is going to starve, die horribly or go to prison because they decided not to use a VFG due to the issue being a bit uncertain. No one is screaming you'll go to prison - the most I see is some mild and justifiable uncertainty. People can listen to both sides and make up their own mind. Relax.
Link Posted: 10/25/2017 9:56:40 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I can accept that it's quite possibly the case that the brace is included in OAL measurement, and it might even be more likely than not. Moreover, I've said before that it probably doesn't really matter that much anyway, as no one has ever be prosecuted for a VFG. If it ever is proven completely correct, all the better for us all. If not, someone runs little risk of legal trouble. Be that as it may, I still take issue with this claim that there isn't a single thing left to question and that it's all completely and unequivocally clear how the ATF views this. The ONLY evidence to back that claim is the so-called "Reddit opinion letter", which to my mind is, at the very least, a bit suspect. It looks nothing like any official opinion letter I've seen; it has no traceable source or any other evidence of its existence outside of the one instance. Furthermore, no credible source I know of is touting said opinion letter as the law of the land and advising people to go forth and slap VFG on pistols to their hearts' content. Normally something like this is pretty big news.

Want to put a VFG on your pistol and use the brace as part of OAL? Great, go ahead - you're likely fine either way. Just stop claiming that anyone who has the slightest question or certainty regarding this issue is ignorant, unaware or "making stuff up". No one is "making stuff up". Some are a bit dubious of whether your interpretation of existing measurement standards for rifles and a reliance on an opinion letter of questionable authenticity is enough to state, without reservation, the issue is clear and solved. It seems like a perfectly reasonable position to me. You repeatedly saying "it's been decided"; "it's completely clear"; "anyone who questions this is making stuff up" doesn't make it so. If it is truly so clear cut and beyond dispute, why are posters such as myself, OhShoot and others, who are clearly as informed on AR pistol laws as you, looking at the same facts you are, then drawing different conclusions? It's obvious there is some room for interpretation.

I just have to wonder why you are so vehemently opposed to even the suggestion there might be some unanswered questions here. Do you feel you're more justified if everyone repeats your position? No one is going to starve, die horribly or go to prison because they decided not to use a VFG due to the issue being a bit uncertain. No one is screaming you'll go to prison - the most I see is some mild and justifiable uncertainty. People can listen to both sides and make up their own mind. Relax.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
This letter clearly states braces count as length.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4486/36691106254_341825ab0a_z.jpgXBZms6s_d by tbrique1,  

Facts=
1=At no time has the BATFE stated anything but the extreme rear point of a firearm is the measurement point, (plain, simple and easy to understand) .
What reason is there to make up stuff and believe it has relevance for anyone else?
2=Barrel specific measurements (pinned and welded device) are exactly that, the way to measure a barrel. They have NEVER had any bearing on the way the rear of  any gun is measured. Why would someone assume they do now?
3=The BATFE has NEVER subtracted parts from a gun when being measured.  Why would someone assume they do now?
4=The BATFE has NEVER stated a part must have any certain function or connection method to be part of a weapon. Why would someone assume they do now?
5=The BATFE has many times stated how to measure a weapon and all methods correspond and relate to the way a pistol is also measured. Why would someone assume pistols are different than all other weapons?
The letter above clearly states how to measure a pistol with a brace. Even if there is a plot that entails forging documents to trick someone all other rulings still back up measuring a pistol the same way. Maybe every letter is fake and the BATFE does not even exist? Maybe everyone should just make up their own rules?
Making up rules and ideas with no connection to anything that remotely backs them up as legitimate (as far as BATFE rules go) has no point to it, other than to confuse people.

Follow the BATFE rules as they are worded. Making up a bunch of assumptions to fight facts and reality is very pointless and only confuses people who want real answers.
Does anyone actually expect the BATFE to explain every part of every gun and how it works, how it is connected and how it relates to every rule they have ever made? Unless something is specifically stated as (different and not following existing rules) it is obviously going to follow the existing rules.
I can accept that it's quite possibly the case that the brace is included in OAL measurement, and it might even be more likely than not. Moreover, I've said before that it probably doesn't really matter that much anyway, as no one has ever be prosecuted for a VFG. If it ever is proven completely correct, all the better for us all. If not, someone runs little risk of legal trouble. Be that as it may, I still take issue with this claim that there isn't a single thing left to question and that it's all completely and unequivocally clear how the ATF views this. The ONLY evidence to back that claim is the so-called "Reddit opinion letter", which to my mind is, at the very least, a bit suspect. It looks nothing like any official opinion letter I've seen; it has no traceable source or any other evidence of its existence outside of the one instance. Furthermore, no credible source I know of is touting said opinion letter as the law of the land and advising people to go forth and slap VFG on pistols to their hearts' content. Normally something like this is pretty big news.

Want to put a VFG on your pistol and use the brace as part of OAL? Great, go ahead - you're likely fine either way. Just stop claiming that anyone who has the slightest question or certainty regarding this issue is ignorant, unaware or "making stuff up". No one is "making stuff up". Some are a bit dubious of whether your interpretation of existing measurement standards for rifles and a reliance on an opinion letter of questionable authenticity is enough to state, without reservation, the issue is clear and solved. It seems like a perfectly reasonable position to me. You repeatedly saying "it's been decided"; "it's completely clear"; "anyone who questions this is making stuff up" doesn't make it so. If it is truly so clear cut and beyond dispute, why are posters such as myself, OhShoot and others, who are clearly as informed on AR pistol laws as you, looking at the same facts you are, then drawing different conclusions? It's obvious there is some room for interpretation.

I just have to wonder why you are so vehemently opposed to even the suggestion there might be some unanswered questions here. Do you feel you're more justified if everyone repeats your position? No one is going to starve, die horribly or go to prison because they decided not to use a VFG due to the issue being a bit uncertain. No one is screaming you'll go to prison - the most I see is some mild and justifiable uncertainty. People can listen to both sides and make up their own mind. Relax.
My problem is that nothing is uncertain until guessing and wrong information is added to the mix.
Almost daily, literally daily, someone asks how to measure their pistol and someone posts what they heard is the answer. Every time someone answers it will be some version of misinformation they gathered and it's different almost every time depending on when they got their information.
I simply want to cut out the ''maybe it is this'' ideas floating around as fact and give only legitimate facts.  
The problem is that for a long time people have been under the impression that misinformation is indeed fact when it comes to this topic. Some people hate to admit they are wrong and some simply have a hard time changing their mind once it is made up.
I am simply giving people the facts so they do not repeat anything else but fact to the next person.
As far as the specific letter above=
Michael S Knapp definitely is an ATF agent and looking around the internet you can find several other letters or Emails he has sent out and they look the same as the one above. The possibility of someone forging a document is always real but I find it very unlikely in this case, (and why would someone bother).  I find it interesting that people are so insistent on their ideas that when faced with the contrary, they simply claim the contrary is fake.
Even if the letter never existed, pistols would still be measured the same way following existing rules.
Link Posted: 10/25/2017 1:52:23 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

My problem is that nothing is uncertain until guessing and wrong information is added to the mix.
Almost daily, literally daily, someone asks how to measure their pistol and someone posts what they heard is the answer. Every time someone answers it will be some version of misinformation they gathered and it's different almost every time depending on when they got their information.
I simply want to cut out the ''maybe it is this'' ideas floating around as fact and give only legitimate facts.  
The problem is that for a long time people have been under the impression that misinformation is indeed fact when it comes to this topic. Some people hate to admit they are wrong and some simply have a hard time changing their mind once it is made up.
I am simply giving people the facts so they do not repeat anything else but fact to the next person.
As far as the specific letter above=
Michael S Knapp definitely is an ATF agent and looking around the internet you can find several other letters or Emails he has sent out and they look the same as the one above. The possibility of someone forging a document is always real but I find it very unlikely in this case, (and why would someone bother).  I find it interesting that people are so insistent on their ideas that when faced with the contrary, they simply claim the contrary is fake.
Even if the letter never existed, pistols would still be measured the same way following existing rules.
View Quote
I just shot them an email and he replied back stating what that letter said, to measure from the brace.
Link Posted: 11/6/2017 6:26:06 PM EDT
[#7]
I'm running a knock off on my cheap ass .22 build that has been one of the most fun builds I've ever done...the folder has been perfect so far. Not sure that I'd use it on a 5.56 and have to modify the bcg extension or whatever but the folder quality itself definitely surprised me for 28 bucks shipped from china







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