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Posted: 11/14/2018 1:36:13 PM EDT
[#1]
This looks pretty good for CBQ (1:7 barrel). Cheaper than MK262 and get that sweet heavy grain projectile, unlike m855, to take advantage of the M4 twist rate. Seems like a good stockpile option. Not sure if there are better / cheaper routes.
HORNADY T2 FRONTIER 5.56 NATO 75 GRAIN BTHP MATCH AMMUNITION, 20RDS - FR320 IN STOCK $ 11.99 |
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Posted: 11/14/2018 3:33:30 PM EDT
[#2]
just site in/stock your preferred round, shoot with offsets (or not) for the cheap stuff.
its not that hard |
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Posted: 11/14/2018 3:37:49 PM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 11/14/2018 4:51:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
just site in/stock your preferred round, shoot with offsets (or not) for the cheap stuff. its not that hard I was mainly curious of the most cost-efficient round that is cheap enough to practice / good enough for defense. Everyone says 193 and 855 sucks in combat, so I am just looking for a better compromise. |
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Posted: 11/14/2018 4:55:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryNice! This is what I was looking for. Cheap JHP! Thanks brother.
I guess I could have summed up my question more concise but yea that is exactly what I wanted. I wonder if heavy 556 such as 75-77 grain would be my best option for cheap/effective rifle load. Or maybe soft-points, I'll keep reading. Just trying to avoid light (50-62 grain) ball ammo since it can "ice pick" |
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Posted: 11/14/2018 5:27:49 PM EDT
[#6]
Hornady Steel Match / Training 75gr Steel Cased.
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Posted: 11/14/2018 5:30:55 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hornady Steel Match / Training 75gr Steel Cased. |
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Posted: 11/14/2018 7:07:29 PM EDT
[#8]
M855 "green tip" is garbage ammo.
Trying to do both screws you over on both ends. It better to get a few hundred rounds of high quality HD/duty ammo and the cheap stuff on the low end. Unless you are doing long range stuff the difference in zero wont be enough to matter. |
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Posted: 11/14/2018 7:51:27 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know buying anything, on sale, without much thought isn't that hard. I get that. I'm a business analyst, I am always curious and hungry for info. Always looking to improve upon basic knowledge. I know its not rocket science to buy cases of 193 or 855. I was mainly curious of the most cost-efficient round that is cheap enough to practice / good enough for defense. Everyone says 193 and 855 sucks in combat, so I am just looking for a better compromise. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
just site in/stock your preferred round, shoot with offsets (or not) for the cheap stuff. its not that hard I was mainly curious of the most cost-efficient round that is cheap enough to practice / good enough for defense. Everyone says 193 and 855 sucks in combat, so I am just looking for a better compromise. |
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Posted: 11/14/2018 8:01:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hornady Steel Match / Training 75gr Steel Cased. |
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Posted: 11/14/2018 8:04:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
just site in/stock your preferred round, shoot with offsets (or not) for the cheap stuff. its not that hard |
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Posted: 11/14/2018 10:51:06 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M855 "green tip" is garbage ammo. Trying to do both screws you over on both ends. It better to get a few hundred rounds of high quality HD/duty ammo and the cheap stuff on the low end. Unless you are doing long range stuff the difference in zero wont be enough to matter. |
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Posted: 11/14/2018 10:51:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ill take a look! I’ve been finding decent prices on the CBC 77gr occasionally Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
just site in/stock your preferred round, shoot with offsets (or not) for the cheap stuff. its not that hard I was mainly curious of the most cost-efficient round that is cheap enough to practice / good enough for defense. Everyone says 193 and 855 sucks in combat, so I am just looking for a better compromise. I’ve been finding decent prices on the CBC 77gr occasionally |
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Posted: 11/14/2018 10:52:18 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Came to post. HSM (80261) 75gr shoots fairly precisely for me, is very affordable, and is a respectable defensive bullet. I keep reading that the Training shoots the same as HSM, but it’s never shot as well for me for some reason. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Hornady Steel Match / Training 75gr Steel Cased. |
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Posted: 11/14/2018 10:54:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is what I do. I use TMKs for most every real world use like bedside/hunting, etc. I practice with either Black Hills 77gr in my precision rifles, or Hornady Steel 75’s in my more ‘duty’ oriented builds. There’s never really much POI shift. Switching between the practice rounds and TMKs works fine for me, and allows me to use my preferred bullet while saving significant cost. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
just site in/stock your preferred round, shoot with offsets (or not) for the cheap stuff. its not that hard |
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Posted: 11/15/2018 12:42:16 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was hoping there may be a very lethal / very cheap round. Guess I cant have it both ways, as of now haha. Thanks for all the great load ideas guys. Ive been learning a TON here. the reason why a compromise doesn't work is you are likely to never use the SD/HD rounds, and if you do it wont be more than a mag. So if you get 500 or so good rounds and get cheaper stuff for training you will save money AS WELL AS not compromise on the ammo. example: 500 rounds for 500$, plus 20 cents steel training at 200/month=2900/yr "decent" rounds at 30-35 cents at the same training rate = 3600-4200/yr I thought you said you were a business guy |
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Posted: 11/15/2018 1:07:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
how many "very lethal" rounds do you need? the reason why a compromise doesn't work is you are likely to never use the SD/HD rounds, and if you do it wont be more than a mag. So if you get 500 or so good rounds and get cheaper stuff for training you will save money AS WELL AS not compromise on the ammo. example: 500 rounds for 500$, plus 20 cents steel training at 200/month=2900/yr "decent" rounds at 30-35 cents at the same training rate = 3600-4200/yr I thought you said you were a business guy Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I was hoping there may be a very lethal / very cheap round. Guess I cant have it both ways, as of now haha. Thanks for all the great load ideas guys. Ive been learning a TON here. the reason why a compromise doesn't work is you are likely to never use the SD/HD rounds, and if you do it wont be more than a mag. So if you get 500 or so good rounds and get cheaper stuff for training you will save money AS WELL AS not compromise on the ammo. example: 500 rounds for 500$, plus 20 cents steel training at 200/month=2900/yr "decent" rounds at 30-35 cents at the same training rate = 3600-4200/yr I thought you said you were a business guy My thought was to make my stockpile more effective overall. I know I wouldn't need 10k rounds for a bad guy but it's nice to have it. Hunting, SHTF, etc. Would be cool to know all 10k rounds are very effective, not just a few mags. I wasn't looking for the ultimate cheapest way though. Just exploring other avenues, compromises, new tech in bullets that I'm not aware of, things like that. Just a thought, based on feedback I'm going to stick to my old ways. Although I was shown cheap HP's for pistol here, which I'll be stocking vs FMJ so that was a win. Thanks for that guys. Will leave 556 alone for now. |
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Posted: 11/15/2018 1:33:03 PM EDT
[#18]
stop over thinking this, plenty of corpses in the ground from ball and standard non hp ammo.
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Posted: 11/15/2018 1:52:58 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
stop over thinking this, plenty of corpses in the ground from ball and standard non hp ammo. |
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Posted: 11/15/2018 1:56:47 PM EDT
[#20]
@splbass17
The various other posts bring up a good point.... be sure to try all your selections for accuracy prior to a bulk purchase. Some barrels love the Horn. 75gr... some hate it. |
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Posted: 11/15/2018 3:42:41 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@splbass17 The various other posts bring up a good point.... be sure to try all your selections for accuracy prior to a bulk purchase. Some barrels love the Horn. 75gr... some hate it. |
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Posted: 11/15/2018 4:48:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh man, I didn't even think of that! I appreciate it, you most likely saved me a huge hassle. Instead of a case today, I'll go for a 20 round box of everything first. Will post of pics of 2 x 3 shot groups with each from 100 meters with my 14.5 barrel. |
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Posted: 11/15/2018 7:40:04 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I suggest at least 5 round groups; ideally 10 round |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 1:59:44 AM EDT
[#24]
Personally, I'd stockpile M193 before I stockpiled M855 for both practice and serious use. The fragmentation is better and armor penetration of M193 is supposedly greater than SS109/M855 at close ranges (justifiable HD defense ranges) as velocity is the principle factor in defeating armor. Plus M193 is cheaper than M855.
It's one thing if you're humping around a combat zone and routinely engaging targets at 200yds or more. Civilians just aren't going to see those situations. Close up though, I'd take the M193. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 12:26:08 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds good. I think I misunderstood the original respone, this is good. I was hoping there may be a very lethal / very cheap round. Guess I cant have it both ways, as of now haha. Thanks for all the great load ideas guys. Ive been learning a TON here. I think we get caught up, because this is a forum, in philosophy and what ifs. Now I’m by no means saying, at all, some billets arentcway better than others, but people need to step back into the real world for a second. We are civilians talking shtf so for the most part long distance shooting isn’t really a factor. Any bullet coming out of an AR is lethal. Very lethal. What’s more important is shot placement. Training is what facilitates that. What facilitates more training? Availability of ammo? What facilitates that? Cost. Again, I’m by no means saying bullets are equal. Just pointing out that you shouldn’t probably stress this much over it unless it’s academic. Get yourself shit loads of cheap ammo and practice. I’d rather have a guy with me who had cheap ammo but tons of training vs a Gucci guy with Gucci ammo who barely has his rifle zeroed. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 12:31:17 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I suggest at least 5 round groups; ideally 10 round I see the back yard tester Molon’s “model” is still in full force around here. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 1:26:02 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5 round groups are fine. 10 is too much of a chance to introduce an outside variable. I see the back yard tester Molon's "model" is still in full force around here. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 7:43:06 PM EDT
[#28]
Thank you all for the insight.
5 round groups it is. I'll try 5 and 10 M193 sounds good, having a cheap stockpiled round that is known to work well CQB sounds great to me Ill do groups with 193, m855 and compare to m855a1 and mk262. Can't this weekend, next is holiday-ish but I'll post up mid Dec |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 7:49:15 PM EDT
[#29]
Gold Dot, for that. It's around $0.50 a round comapared with slightly less expensive M193 that most people have no qualms training with. I can't think of many other rounds I would train, hunt, and do HD with and feel relatively content with all 3 tasks for the same.
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Posted: 11/16/2018 8:19:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5 round groups are fine. 10 is too much of a chance to introduce an outside variable. I see the back yard tester Molon’s “model” is still in full force around here. Quote HistoryQuoted: 5 round groups are fine. 10 is too much of a chance to introduce an outside variable. I see the back yard tester Molon’s “model” is still in full force around here. This place is already turning into an echo chamber of ignorance where M193 is the be all end all solution to everyone's needs despite the large body of evidence of its inconsistency . Quoted: lol, there is a very lethal and cheap round....all of them. I think we get caught up, because this is a forum, in philosophy and what ifs. Now I’m by no means saying, at all, some billets arentcway better than others, but people need to step back into the real world for a second. We are civilians talking shtf so for the most part long distance shooting isn’t really a factor. Any bullet coming out of an AR is lethal. Very lethal. What’s more important is shot placement. Training is what facilitates that. What facilitates more training? Availability of ammo? What facilitates that? Cost. Again, I’m by no means saying bullets are equal. Just pointing out that you shouldn’t probably stress this much over it unless it’s academic. Get yourself shit loads of cheap ammo and practice. I’d rather have a guy with me who had cheap ammo but tons of training vs a Gucci guy with Gucci ammo who barely has his rifle zeroed. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 8:42:45 PM EDT
[#31]
I'm not a huge believer in hollow point anything ( Other than OTM, for accuracy in rifles). What you want is ammo that will put holes in things every time. Most anything stops working when you put holes in it. Forget about energy dumps and other nonsense. I like M193 for the rifle. Under 100 yards I don't think anything is going to exceed it in any measurable way. For 9mm, I like 124 Grn Nato ball (Winchester Q4313) Or M882 equivalent. I bought a bunch of Federal M882 a number of years ago and still use it as my go to ammo. The primers are staked and sealed and the loading is on the warm side. M882 will put holes in things and that's what solves problems. For 12 gauge, military buck and Brenneke special forces slugs.
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Posted: 11/16/2018 8:45:15 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not a huge believer in hollow point anything ( Other than OTM, for accuracy in rifles). What you want is ammo that will put holes in things every time. Most anything stops working when you put holes in it. Forget about energy dumps and other nonsense. I like M193 for the rifle. Under 100 yards I don't think anything is going to exceed it in any measurable way. For 9mm, I like 124 Grn Nato ball (Winchester Q4313) Or M882 equivalent. I bought a bunch of Federal M882 a number of years ago and still use it as my go to ammo. The primers are staked and sealed and the loading is on the warm side. M882 will put holes in things and that's what solves problems. For 12 gauge, military buck and Brenneke special forces slugs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not a huge believer in hollow point anything ( Other than OTM, for accuracy in rifles). What you want is ammo that will put holes in things every time. Most anything stops working when you put holes in it. Forget about energy dumps and other nonsense. I like M193 for the rifle. Under 100 yards I don't think anything is going to exceed it in any measurable way. For 9mm, I like 124 Grn Nato ball (Winchester Q4313) Or M882 equivalent. I bought a bunch of Federal M882 a number of years ago and still use it as my go to ammo. The primers are staked and sealed and the loading is on the warm side. M882 will put holes in things and that's what solves problems. For 12 gauge, military buck and Brenneke special forces slugs. 
Literally 1 post later... Quoted: This place is already turning into an echo chamber of ignorance where M193 is the be all end all solution to everyone's needs despite the large body of evidence of its inconsistency . |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 8:47:25 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5 round groups are fine. 10 is too much of a chance to introduce an outside variable. I see the back yard tester Molon’s “model” is still in full force around here. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 10:34:52 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gold Dot, for that. It's around $0.50 a round comapared with slightly less expensive M193 that most people have no qualms training with. I can't think of many other rounds I would train, hunt, and do HD with and feel relatively content with all 3 tasks for the same. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 10:37:15 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
External variables will apply outside of a square range, too. Even though it would not be a perfect test of the weapon/ammunition combination, you will never encounter perfect conditions in the field. The more rounds are fired, the more statistically robust your data will be. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: 5 round groups are fine. 10 is too much of a chance to introduce an outside variable. I see the back yard tester Molon’s “model” is still in full force around here. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 10:46:09 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
lol, there is a very lethal and cheap round....all of them. I think we get caught up, because this is a forum, in philosophy and what ifs. Now I’m by no means saying, at all, some billets arentcway better than others, but people need to step back into the real world for a second. We are civilians talking shtf so for the most part long distance shooting isn’t really a factor. Any bullet coming out of an AR is lethal. Very lethal. What’s more important is shot placement. Training is what facilitates that. What facilitates more training? Availability of ammo? What facilitates that? Cost. Again, I’m by no means saying bullets are equal. Just pointing out that you shouldn’t probably stress this much over it unless it’s academic. Get yourself shit loads of cheap ammo and practice. I’d rather have a guy with me who had cheap ammo but tons of training vs a Gucci guy with Gucci ammo who barely has his rifle zeroed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Sounds good. I think I misunderstood the original respone, this is good. I was hoping there may be a very lethal / very cheap round. Guess I cant have it both ways, as of now haha. Thanks for all the great load ideas guys. Ive been learning a TON here. I think we get caught up, because this is a forum, in philosophy and what ifs. Now I’m by no means saying, at all, some billets arentcway better than others, but people need to step back into the real world for a second. We are civilians talking shtf so for the most part long distance shooting isn’t really a factor. Any bullet coming out of an AR is lethal. Very lethal. What’s more important is shot placement. Training is what facilitates that. What facilitates more training? Availability of ammo? What facilitates that? Cost. Again, I’m by no means saying bullets are equal. Just pointing out that you shouldn’t probably stress this much over it unless it’s academic. Get yourself shit loads of cheap ammo and practice. I’d rather have a guy with me who had cheap ammo but tons of training vs a Gucci guy with Gucci ammo who barely has his rifle zeroed. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 10:49:32 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And what useful data have you contributed to the forums? It's ignorant people like you who drive useful members off the forums. This place is already turning into an echo chamber of ignorance where M193 is the be all end all solution to everyone's needs despite the large body of evidence of its inconsistency . Then why do the guys who have tens of thousands of rounds of training rounds per year put expensive stuff like brown tip in their magazines? Training matters alot but not screwing yourself over with inferior gear which includes ammo is also part of the equation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: 5 round groups are fine. 10 is too much of a chance to introduce an outside variable. I see the back yard tester Molon’s “model” is still in full force around here. This place is already turning into an echo chamber of ignorance where M193 is the be all end all solution to everyone's needs despite the large body of evidence of its inconsistency . Quoted: lol, there is a very lethal and cheap round....all of them. I think we get caught up, because this is a forum, in philosophy and what ifs. Now I’m by no means saying, at all, some billets arentcway better than others, but people need to step back into the real world for a second. We are civilians talking shtf so for the most part long distance shooting isn’t really a factor. Any bullet coming out of an AR is lethal. Very lethal. What’s more important is shot placement. Training is what facilitates that. What facilitates more training? Availability of ammo? What facilitates that? Cost. Again, I’m by no means saying bullets are equal. Just pointing out that you shouldn’t probably stress this much over it unless it’s academic. Get yourself shit loads of cheap ammo and practice. I’d rather have a guy with me who had cheap ammo but tons of training vs a Gucci guy with Gucci ammo who barely has his rifle zeroed. Its great to see everyone's feedback though, gives a well-rounded snapshot. You get the die-hard spend 99% of your budget shooting and buy the cheapest stuff, get 10k rounds down range per yr. You get the high end rifle is more reliable and buy the sickest ammo and it will make up for shit training, lol. I have been seeing all sorts of angles, both on extreme ends. I like to combine everyone's ideas, no one is ever exactly right. |
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Posted: 11/16/2018 11:18:11 PM EDT
[#38]
Find IMI razor core, CBC SMK, etc on sale. Find Hornady Frontier 75 gr on sale. Stock up on those if they shoot well in your rifle. In truth, most any 556/223 would be good enough within 150 yds. Past that get a 308
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Posted: 11/17/2018 3:04:56 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is exactly what I mean
Literally 1 post later... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm not a huge believer in hollow point anything ( Other than OTM, for accuracy in rifles). What you want is ammo that will put holes in things every time. Most anything stops working when you put holes in it. Forget about energy dumps and other nonsense. I like M193 for the rifle. Under 100 yards I don't think anything is going to exceed it in any measurable way. For 9mm, I like 124 Grn Nato ball (Winchester Q4313) Or M882 equivalent. I bought a bunch of Federal M882 a number of years ago and still use it as my go to ammo. The primers are staked and sealed and the loading is on the warm side. M882 will put holes in things and that's what solves problems. For 12 gauge, military buck and Brenneke special forces slugs.
Literally 1 post later... Quoted: This place is already turning into an echo chamber of ignorance where M193 is the be all end all solution to everyone's needs despite the large body of evidence of its inconsistency . |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 3:19:53 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I do a lot of process improvement for a living. Granted, it's for a swiss bank but its all about looking at the way a team or individual has always done things and look for opportunities to improve. My thinking when I posted is, I wonder how many people stock up on x round, because they heard from the crowd that was the thing to do. Basically, some people will say "do this" "stop over thinking". I believe its a good to think, ask questions, look for better solutions. This ammo choice info may have been the most efficient 2 years ago or more, but I like continuous improvement, sometimes options change, so I was exploring what options we have right now. Its great to see everyone's feedback though, gives a well-rounded snapshot. You get the die-hard spend 99% of your budget shooting and buy the cheapest stuff, get 10k rounds down range per yr. You get the high end rifle is more reliable and buy the sickest ammo and it will make up for shit training, lol. I have been seeing all sorts of angles, both on extreme ends. I like to combine everyone's ideas, no one is ever exactly right. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: 5 round groups are fine. 10 is too much of a chance to introduce an outside variable. I see the back yard tester Molon’s “model” is still in full force around here. This place is already turning into an echo chamber of ignorance where M193 is the be all end all solution to everyone's needs despite the large body of evidence of its inconsistency . Quoted: lol, there is a very lethal and cheap round....all of them. I think we get caught up, because this is a forum, in philosophy and what ifs. Now I’m by no means saying, at all, some billets arentcway better than others, but people need to step back into the real world for a second. We are civilians talking shtf so for the most part long distance shooting isn’t really a factor. Any bullet coming out of an AR is lethal. Very lethal. What’s more important is shot placement. Training is what facilitates that. What facilitates more training? Availability of ammo? What facilitates that? Cost. Again, I’m by no means saying bullets are equal. Just pointing out that you shouldn’t probably stress this much over it unless it’s academic. Get yourself shit loads of cheap ammo and practice. I’d rather have a guy with me who had cheap ammo but tons of training vs a Gucci guy with Gucci ammo who barely has his rifle zeroed. Its great to see everyone's feedback though, gives a well-rounded snapshot. You get the die-hard spend 99% of your budget shooting and buy the cheapest stuff, get 10k rounds down range per yr. You get the high end rifle is more reliable and buy the sickest ammo and it will make up for shit training, lol. I have been seeing all sorts of angles, both on extreme ends. I like to combine everyone's ideas, no one is ever exactly right. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 4:32:32 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Myself I was not suggesting going "cheap". Quality stuff like Federal XM193 is not the cheapest by far. What is important when you get a new can of Federal XM193 is you are basically getting current military grade ammo. The Primers are staked, the necks are sealed and the ammo is loaded to mil spec. It will go bang and do the job as consistently as any ammo available. Same goes for Winchester nato ball. You mentioned wanting to stack deep on ammo good enough to train with and good enough for shtf type purpose. What better than to get the stuff our military is currently using. M193 or even if you prefer M855 has been proven in combat with millions of rounds, it works, period. Don't get me wrong I like and shoot some of the heavy stuff like Razor core etc. but it's expensive, not really any more effective until you go long range and by percentage more problematic than M193 and M855. There is so much wrong in the post its not even worth my time to pick it apart. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 10:34:21 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Find IMI razor core, CBC SMK, etc on sale. Find Hornady Frontier 75 gr on sale. Stock up on those if they shoot well in your rifle. In truth, most any 556/223 would be good enough within 150 yds. Past that get a 308 Anyway, I'll take a look thanks for the suggestions. Ive noticed the Frontier 75 gr and will check out the others. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 10:38:52 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Myself I was not suggesting going "cheap". Quality stuff like Federal XM193 is not the cheapest by far. What is important when you get a new can of Federal XM193 is you are basically getting current military grade ammo. The Primers are staked, the necks are sealed and the ammo is loaded to mil spec. It will go bang and do the job as consistently as any ammo available. Same goes for Winchester nato ball. You mentioned wanting to stack deep on ammo good enough to train with and good enough for shtf type purpose. What better than to get the stuff our military is currently using. M193 or even if you prefer M855 has been proven in combat with millions of rounds, it works, period. Don't get me wrong I like and shoot some of the heavy stuff like Razor core etc. but it's expensive, not really any more effective until you go long range and by percentage more problematic than M193 and M855. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: 5 round groups are fine. 10 is too much of a chance to introduce an outside variable. I see the back yard tester Molon’s “model” is still in full force around here. This place is already turning into an echo chamber of ignorance where M193 is the be all end all solution to everyone's needs despite the large body of evidence of its inconsistency . Quoted: lol, there is a very lethal and cheap round....all of them. I think we get caught up, because this is a forum, in philosophy and what ifs. Now I’m by no means saying, at all, some billets arentcway better than others, but people need to step back into the real world for a second. We are civilians talking shtf so for the most part long distance shooting isn’t really a factor. Any bullet coming out of an AR is lethal. Very lethal. What’s more important is shot placement. Training is what facilitates that. What facilitates more training? Availability of ammo? What facilitates that? Cost. Again, I’m by no means saying bullets are equal. Just pointing out that you shouldn’t probably stress this much over it unless it’s academic. Get yourself shit loads of cheap ammo and practice. I’d rather have a guy with me who had cheap ammo but tons of training vs a Gucci guy with Gucci ammo who barely has his rifle zeroed. Its great to see everyone's feedback though, gives a well-rounded snapshot. You get the die-hard spend 99% of your budget shooting and buy the cheapest stuff, get 10k rounds down range per yr. You get the high end rifle is more reliable and buy the sickest ammo and it will make up for shit training, lol. I have been seeing all sorts of angles, both on extreme ends. I like to combine everyone's ideas, no one is ever exactly right. I think in summary, now that I have had time to read all your responses and think on it, I was wanting to stock 75-77 OTM vs 193/855, for the same price if possible. I started ordering boxes of everything, going out to shoot groups in a few weeks to see what does well. Will post up results for you guys. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 10:45:17 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So the military is currently using M193 eh? There is so much wrong in the post its not even worth my time to pick it apart. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Myself I was not suggesting going "cheap". Quality stuff like Federal XM193 is not the cheapest by far. What is important when you get a new can of Federal XM193 is you are basically getting current military grade ammo. The Primers are staked, the necks are sealed and the ammo is loaded to mil spec. It will go bang and do the job as consistently as any ammo available. Same goes for Winchester nato ball. You mentioned wanting to stack deep on ammo good enough to train with and good enough for shtf type purpose. What better than to get the stuff our military is currently using. M193 or even if you prefer M855 has been proven in combat with millions of rounds, it works, period. Don't get me wrong I like and shoot some of the heavy stuff like Razor core etc. but it's expensive, not really any more effective until you go long range and by percentage more problematic than M193 and M855. There is so much wrong in the post its not even worth my time to pick it apart. I thought the M855 was painted green so you knew not to shoot it from a M16 or 20 inch 1:12 I always thought Green tip (62 grain M855) for 1:7 twist which is the M4 and m193 (55 grain) for the 1:12 twist barrels found on our M-16'S Maybe they changed the twist rates by now and all military barrels are 1:7, that I'm not sure. Just checked the FN military collectors and both M4 and M16a2 are 1:7 twist. Hmmmm maybe the 1:12 is from NAM or 16a1. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 11:25:46 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5 round groups are fine. 10 is too much of a chance to introduce an outside variable. I see the back yard tester Molon’s “model” is still in full force around here. You mean like in a SHTF scenario ? Your comment is just like Molon's 10rd testing ... just a different version. 5rds isn't a perfect model either. As an opposing view point... and just my 2 cents, like yours. I , for one, still use the "back yard tester Molons Model. There is nothing wrong with 10rd testing... and is my preferred testing... given the time and quantity of ammo. 10rds shows me what the ammo can do if I do my part. 5rds will do if that is what you want... that is the individual's choice. There is no standard for what works for you. Please, You could have left out the Molon comment... easily. @Molon, was a big influence on more thorough, better testing. I'd venture to say, his posts are more informative then anyone else's cumulatively speaking. His never ending pursuit of testing, and sharing of knowledge of those tests... is something to be admired. Who else here has put so much effort to the benefit of us. IMHO, Bad mouthing another's valuable input is unneeded at the very least. If 10rd groups are influenced by an outside variable... then that is most likely on the shooter. I would want to know that info... so I can improve my skills.. and will add... that has worked. I see no useful benefit to bad mouthing Molon. For the OP, with capably accurate ammo , from your firearm... try some ten round groups after some 5rd groups... 10rds will help you learn what you are capable of. You will gain confidence knowing what you can do. After all... skill doesn't come cheap. And confidence gained from more rounds tested with capable , precise ammo , IMHO, is worth its weight in Gold. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 11:56:18 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I see no useful benefit to bad mouthing Molon. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 12:24:11 PM EDT
[#47]
IMI Razorcore, CBC 262, or Hornady Frontier 75gr are good performing options that aren’t as expensive as others.
For 9mm, 9BPLE is a load that’s been eclipsed by the latest and greatest but is still a solid performer with a good rep. I’d have no issue stocking that. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 2:19:45 PM EDT
[#48]
I've got M193 and M855 squirreled away at home along with some Mk262 I won at the All Army Matches. 500-600 m w/ irons is very doable if you know your fundementals of shooting. Same with shooting a M14 w/irons out to 1000 yds. I reload my training ammo at home, my relaxing time when I'm not down range.
My 5.56mm hunting ammo is either Mk262 (killed three whitetails), Win 64 gr PSP or Federal Fusion 62 gr. All will put stuff down IF you place the bullet in the kill zone. Keep a loaded 20 rd mag of M193 in one of my ARs in the safe for nearly 30 yrs then shoot it last year. Functioned correctly. Course if going to war, load this stuff up.  Attached FileCD |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 2:36:29 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree, not picking on just this one post. I have noticed some hostility in all my posts on this forum since I joined a few weeks ago. Although it seems the majority will call out the negativity and stop it from progressing. Good group of guys here, not sure why the angry few but they sure do pop up here and there haha. Id buy them a beer if I could, that seems to always cheer me up. Hence why this place has become an echo chamber of bad info. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 2:49:53 PM EDT
[#50]
Another question to ask is what ammo did the shooters in Vegas and Parkland use? Rifles are deadly at close range. Learn to shoot and use sound tactics.
CD |
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