Do you really need, or want, a sling on a home defense weapon? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Do you really need, or want, a sling on a home defense weapon? (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 5/14/2012 5:52:27 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As is with lots of things...

It's better to have one and not need it, than need one and not have it.

If you don't think you'll use one much just don't buy and exspensive one, but I would still say you should have one.

Bad advice. You want to buy a good sling for either single or 2 point. Make sure its a quality brand like magpul ms3 for single and viking tactics for 2 point.

You do know a good sling doesn't have to cost much? I have a tacstrap I got for $35.00 and it is 1 or 2 point so please explain to me how this is bad advice?

My original post still stands.

Posted: 5/14/2012 7:16:18 PM EDT

[#2]

No, there is a risk it hangs up on shit while you are sneaking around in the dark with it in CQ.

Posted: 5/14/2012 7:51:27 PM EDT

[#3]

You guys have your single points so loose that they can actually catch on stuff? My single point is nice and snug against my body, as it should be, so when I drop my rifle, it hangs right in front of my torso. I don't see how a properly adjusted single point sling presents a danger of catching on every door knob or dresser drawer in the house. I guess there's a really small chance. When I weigh the value that the sling gives me verses the liability, I'm taking an extra second to get that sling up and over my torso and hooked into my rifle.

I also ordered the Tac Strap as well. I don't consider that a cheap sling. A cheap sling is something like you'd buy at Cabelas for $8 that really does nothing for you except provide a way to sling the AR awkwardly over your shoulder with the magazine and pistol grip digging into your side and getting caught up on your holstered pistol.

Posted: 5/14/2012 7:58:22 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
You guys have your single points so loose that they can actually catch on stuff? My single point is nice and snug against my body, as it should be, so when I drop my rifle, it hangs right in front of my torso. I don't see how a properly adjusted single point sling presents a danger of catching on every door knob or dresser drawer in the house. I guess there's a really small chance. When I weigh the value that the sling gives me verses the liability, I'm taking an extra second to get that sling up and over my torso and hooked into my rifle.

Agreed.

Posted: 5/14/2012 8:17:03 PM EDT

[#5]

Yes. It allows the gun to stay with you at all times when you need it to. If you had to perform some task, in addition to carrying the weapon for a situation which made you fetch it in the first place, it stays with you. Like using a handheld light while opening doors, moving stuff, using a phone, etc... as an example. Depending on the sling and carry method, you can keep the gun in a ready state or carry it in a more nuetral position like african carry while your hands are occupied doing other things. With either of these two examples you can empty your hands quickly and still get the gun going in short order if need be.

Posted: 5/14/2012 8:18:15 PM EDT

[#6]

Nvrmnd

Posted: 5/14/2012 8:40:29 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:

You guys have your single points so loose that they can actually catch on stuff? My single point is nice and snug against my body, as it should be, so when I drop my rifle, it hangs right in front of my torso. I don't see how a properly adjusted single point sling presents a danger of catching on every door knob or dresser drawer in the house. I guess there's a really small chance. When I weigh the value that the sling gives me verses the liability, I'm taking an extra second to get that sling up and over my torso and hooked into my rifle.

Agreed.

Also agreed.

I have no idea how ridiculously loose you guys keep your sling that it's getting snagged on stuff left and right. Are you jumping over hurdles? Or is your sling a jump rope? I mean, comeon, are you guys serious?

Posted: 5/14/2012 8:56:58 PM EDT

[#8]

I like to have one on my rifle. Keeps it retained near or on my body. I use a 2-point adjustable LBT sling.

Posted: 5/14/2012 9:13:34 PM EDT

[#9]

No slings on HD rifles or shotguns.

All mine have mounts should I want to sling them but for HD its one more thing for a bad guy to grab onto.

Posted: 5/14/2012 9:50:37 PM EDT

[#10]

Quick adjust 2 point sling and a light. Stoooooopid not to have afixed to rifle at all times. If you have to carry a kid or injured spouse, go out a window, over a fence etc. you are screwed without a sling. Always practice the 6 Ps. There WILL NOT be time to afix anything if the time comes you NEED the rifle.

Posted: 5/14/2012 10:23:29 PM EDT

[#11]

The last thing I'm going to be thinking about during a scenario where I have to grab an AR after being dead asleep is putting on my MS3.

If I had the time? Sure. However, I can't predict whether or not I'll have it, and the last thing I'm going to be doing is trying to thread my body through a sling, then clipping it to my rifle if I hear someone in the house.

Honestly, I can't think of a home defense situation where I'd have the time.....Even if I had a 2 point "permanently" mounted.

I'd be grabbing my rifle and assessing the threat, not worrying about a sling.

Posted: 5/15/2012 3:39:39 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

The last thing I'm going to be thinking about during a scenario where I have to grab an AR after being dead asleep is putting on my MS3.

If I had the time? Sure. However, I can't predict whether or not I'll have it, and the last thing I'm going to be doing is trying to thread my body through a sling, then clipping it to my rifle if I hear someone in the house.

Honestly, I can't think of a home defense situation where I'd have the time.....Even if I had a 2 point "permanently" mounted.

I'd be grabbing my rifle and assessing the threat, not worrying about a sling.

You can't predict whether or not you'll have it? Why not just keep it attached to your gun... Then you can predict you'll always have it.

And yes, there are situations where you'd just grab the gun and engage. Just leave the sling on the gun. Then, when you have time (threat eliminated, house cleared) or if a time you need it presents itself (all of the scenarios listed above), you sling up.

And if you have a spare second, sling up. I mean, it's fast and easy.

I can't honestly think of a home defense situation where I wouldn't want to have a sling or the ability to use both hands while maintaining retention on my weapon.

Posted: 5/15/2012 4:39:23 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
If you have to carry a kid or injured spouse, go out a window, over a fence etc. you are screwed without a sling.

With a sling:

Without a sling:

Posted: 5/15/2012 4:56:51 AM EDT

[#14]

My $0.02:

If the person has a good quick adjustable sling, knows how to properly use the sling, and practices shooting and moving with the sling, then it is a good thing on a HD weapon. For the average tacticool guy that hang some one-point bungee cord thing or three-point montrosity from their rifle, then they are more liekly to get tied up on the bathroom door knob then do anything useful with the sling.

Posted: 5/15/2012 5:20:44 AM EDT

[#15]

Never separate from your weapon.

If you train with it, the sling should be a natural and fluid as the CH or safety.

Put a sling on the rifle, DON’T TAKE IT OFF, train with it for 6 months and it will be strange to not have it.

You may go through several different slings, you may find that 2pt suits you WAY better than single pt (it did for me) but it will become a part of the firearm.

Posted: 5/15/2012 5:22:40 AM EDT

[#16]

I think a sling would cause more problems (snags) then solutions on a HD rifle. When I get a sling it will sit in the safe and only be used for carbine classes or hiking. If you have QD points on your hand guard and stock, you're GTG. LaRue make a nice sling with QDs already installed. That is the one I have my eye on.

Buy the sling, but only use it when you need to bug out.

Posted: 5/15/2012 5:28:25 AM EDT

[#17]

HD is not CQB or a law enforcement entry. In fact, it is the oppositie of the latter where in most cases, the homeowner is, tactically speaking, the "meth cooker", not the "Man in Blue".

Without a complete and detailed presentation of tactics, suffice to say, and I'm not sure about your homes, but mine would almost certainly require ambidextrous use of the rifle and very probable shooting from the floor as well, and would have to commence faster than Right Now. It would in all likelihood also require immediate use of the rifle from sleep to Wide Awake where the sling would be of no use and climbing into it would be a disadvantage of time. I really, as with most gun things, don't care what others choose to do so I find the statements of others interesting and thought stirring. In this case, the case for slings as presented by others has welded me to my position against them. The scenarios that can be drawn from some of those promoting the use of a sling on a HD gun beg imagination, facts and history of home intrusion and nothing said here has, so far at any rate, demonstrated any tactical advantage in the USE of the weapon, all support for slings coming from ancillary activities where the weapon is not needed {dragging Granny out of the burning house and such like, etc}.

A sling is of certain utility in carry, under certain circumstances, for sure. But if the use of the gun does not require a protracted or fatigue-inducing event or long range support {as with a shooting sling} and where the whole notion of transitioning from one weapon to another takes a back seat to getting ONE weapon into immediate use, the sling is and always will be an unnecessary and, at worst, an inhibiting and detrimental add-on in a scenario where inhibiting and detrimental add-ons can get you killed.

Yes, there really are times where the current trend for gadgets and gizmos bolted all over the gun are a disadvantage.

Posted: 5/15/2012 6:07:02 AM EDT

[#18]

If you use your sling for training, shooting, etc, then you should keep it on your rifle. If you think a sling is for hanging your weapon so you can make cool hand gestures while chatting with your buddies then take it off.

Posted: 5/15/2012 6:10:13 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
A sling on a rifle is like a holster for a handgun.

+1

Posted: 5/15/2012 7:36:40 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
A sling on a rifle is like a holster for a handgun.

+1

If you accept this logic and you would not have your handgun in your holster if you are investigating that loud bang at the front door, then the conclusion is that you will not have a sling on your rifle if that is your preferred HD weapon.

Posted: 5/15/2012 8:50:21 AM EDT

[#21]

I personally prefer a sling for home defense use - there are too many administrative tasks I need to do that require both hands to risk losing control of the weapon. If I were planning to simply barricade in a home defense situation, a sling wouldn't be needed.

Posted: 5/15/2012 10:45:43 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:

A sling on a rifle is like a holster for a handgun.

+1

If you accept this logic and you would not have your handgun in your holster if you are investigating that loud bang at the front door, then the conclusion is that you will not have a sling on your rifle if that is your preferred HD weapon.

Having the gun in the holster is not the same as having a holster. I would definitely prefer to have a holster available during a home invasion if possible.

Posted: 5/15/2012 11:23:26 AM EDT

[#23]

To cut to the chase, anyone who says their sling will "get caught up," or is "going to get in the way," or "is unnecessary" doesn't understand how to correctly utilize it. I believe most of you are envisioning a two point strap swinging freely, when the correct use on a modern carbine involves the sling on you, adjusted tight, and utilized for retention of the firearm.

Posted: 5/15/2012 11:45:50 AM EDT

[#24]

I think the division of opinion on this issue stems from a fundamental difference in mindset and experience between the professional and recreational shooting communities. I noticed someone posted earlier that home defense is not CQB. I agree there are obvious differences between the two. However, I would argue the basic principles needed to keep people safe and alive in both scenarios, remain the same. With that said, people with modern, professional training in areas like CQB, such as law enforcement and military personnel, are going to view home defense through a different prism. The real dangers these individuals face is invaluable experience in determining what's necessary and what isn't in a deadly force encounter. Hypothetical analysis isn’t necessary in their case since they actually have the experience to make an accurate assessment without it. Ultimately, the objective in any scenario is to increase survivability. Therefore, the principles that increase survivability in a CQB setting will do the same for any home defense application and shouldn't be discounted. For these reasons (and many others already posted) I subscribe to the idea that slings increase survivability.

On another note, what's the deal with people "sweeping" their homes to investigate a strange noise at night? One post mentioned having to climb fences and other obstacles. Are these typical home defense practices?

Posted: 5/15/2012 12:22:08 PM EDT

[#25]

I don't like it. I've used a sling in enough matches to demonstrate for me it only gets in the way and screws me up.

Such as blocking the safety, getting in the trigger guard, jamming the charging handle. and generally strangling me/things at times.

Some people sound like they've never used a sling in a stressful environment. It's one thing to practice with a sling in front of a mirror and it's another to use it both on and off the body.

Posted: 5/15/2012 12:30:49 PM EDT

[#26]

I do not have slings on my HD AR15 or my MB500. While I do not have a strong preference either way, I feel that the benefits of a sling are minimal for that application and one would more likely get in my way.

Posted: 5/15/2012 12:42:23 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The last thing I'm going to be thinking about during a scenario where I have to grab an AR after being dead asleep is putting on my MS3.

If I had the time? Sure. However, I can't predict whether or not I'll have it, and the last thing I'm going to be doing is trying to thread my body through a sling, then clipping it to my rifle if I hear someone in the house.

Honestly, I can't think of a home defense situation where I'd have the time.....Even if I had a 2 point "permanently" mounted.

I'd be grabbing my rifle and assessing the threat, not worrying about a sling.

You can't predict whether or not you'll have it? Why not just keep it attached to your gun... Then you can predict you'll always have it.

And yes, there are situations where you'd just grab the gun and engage. Just leave the sling on the gun. Then, when you have time (threat eliminated, house cleared) or if a time you need it presents itself (all of the scenarios listed above), you sling up.

And if you have a spare second, sling up. I mean, it's fast and easy.

I can't honestly think of a home defense situation where I wouldn't want to have a sling or the ability to use both hands while maintaining retention on my weapon.

Predicting whether or not he'll have the time, not the sling....

As for whether or not I would use a sling in HD. I can't honestly say that I would. I would love to say that I would, but I would rather not have one attached to the rifle, than have it attached and not have the time to get it on.

Thats the only true way I could see getting a sling caught on anything, if it's attached to the rifle and just hanging off of it (obviously not rubber banded up). If you're slung up properly there shouldnt be any slack to be catching on random door knobs and such.

Posted: 5/15/2012 1:06:18 PM EDT

[#28]

Both of the following members disagree with me, but their posts support my position by demonstrating the weakness of their positions. And by the way, this is among friends. I know what I do and will, and to each his own.

Quoted:
To cut to the chase, anyone who says their sling will "get caught up," or is "going to get in the way," or "is unnecessary" doesn't understand how to correctly utilize it. I believe most of you are envisioning a two point strap swinging freely, when the correct use on a modern carbine involves the sling on you, adjusted tight, and utilized for retention of the firearm.

Thank you. This makes my point for me, which is simple; if you understand home intrusions and how they occur, you understand that YOU are not the one "prepared". They occur and you react. Your preparation must include an understanding of the time necessary for an intruder to knock your door in and rush down the hall to your bedroom, TV room, etc. The whole notion that reacting to a home intrusion is conducted like the preparation one makes for defense of a FOB with personnel on duty 24/7 is preposterous, unless of course you sleep strapped into your rifle.

In short, you don't get the chance to saddle up, you ride bareback, unless you want to get shot tightening the cinch.

Quoted:
I think the division of opinion on this issue stems from a fundamental difference in mindset and experience between the professional and recreational shooting communities. I noticed someone posted earlier that home defense is not CQB. I agree there are obvious differences between the two. However, I would argue the basic principles needed to keep people safe and alive in both scenarios, remain the same. With that said, people with modern, professional training in areas like CQB, such as law enforcement and military personnel, are going to view home defense through a different prism. The real dangers these individuals face is invaluable experience in determining what's necessary and what isn't in a deadly force encounter. Hypothetical analysis isn’t necessary in their case since they actually have the experience to make an accurate assessment without it. Ultimately, the objective in any scenario is to increase survivability. Therefore, the principles that increase survivability in a CQB setting will do the same for any home defense application and shouldn't be discounted. For these reasons (and many others already posted) I subscribe to the idea that slings increase survivability.

This post should also clarify the point. As I stated above, the homeowner facing an intrusion is wholly unlike the LEO conducting it. LE experience is instructive in understanding the circumstances they find those in whose homes they are invading. You folks who keep harping on LE and military operational practices as the basis for HD tactics are completely misunderstanding the scenarios that are presented to the HOMEOWNER. All a fellow needs is a thin and basic understanding of what happens in a home intrusion to grasp the dubious value and in fact the probably detriment of having a sling attached to the rifle.

Posted: 5/15/2012 1:10:32 PM EDT

[#29]

I think some of those that are strongly opposed to having a sling on a HD rifle may have a much narrower scope of the definition of HD than others that prefer to have a sling. Not saying which is correct but after reading more of the responses it seems some think the whole concept of HD is going to only be about instantly reacting to a bump in the night with visions of whatever transpires following that "bump", concluding very quickly. While this might often be the case, it might not always be the case.

To me that HD definition might stray from the envisioned, one on one, cat burglar in the house scenario that is going to come to a quick conclusion. While I would certainly never advocate setting off outside all Ramboesque, there are some places that calling the police and hiding in your bedroom, just aren't realistic options. And the wider, broader scope of a home defense situation might make having a sling on their weapon a very real, and obvious advantage. For others, not so much. One persons reality, is not everyone's.

One thing I know for sure is those that don't think having a sling is a logical choice, never will. Those that do, always will. Keep typing till yer fingers fall off though. Nobody is right. lol!

Posted: 5/15/2012 1:15:03 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
I think some of those that are strongly opposed to having a sling on a HD rifle may have a much narrower scope of the definition of HD than others that prefer to have a sling. Not saying which is correct but after reading more of the responses it seems some think the whole concept of HD is going to only be about instantly reacting to a bump in the night with visions of whatever transpires following that "bump", concluding very quickly. While this might often be the case, it might not always be the case.

To me that HD definition might stray from the envisioned, one on one, cat burglar in the house scenario that is going to come to a quick conclusion. While I would certainly never advocate setting off outside all Ramboesque, there are some places that calling the police and hiding in your bedroom, just aren't realistic options. And the wider, broader scope of a home defense situation might make having a sling on their weapon a very real, and obvious advantage. For others, not so much. One persons reality, is not everyone's.

One thing I know for sure is those that don't think having a sling is a logical choice, never will. Those that do, always will. Keep typing till yer fingers fall off though. Nobody is right. lol!

Good post.

I think you are right, and there is a reason I limit {foir the purposes of this thread} my view mostly to the limited description you note; basically, liability and the reality that most reading this are city folk.

For myself, "home intrusion" might include something that occurs a mile away, but then that is another story.

Posted: 5/15/2012 1:40:51 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Thank you. This makes my point for me, which is simple; if you understand home intrusions and how they occur, you understand that YOU are not the one "prepared". They occur and you react. Your preparation must include an understanding of the time necessary for an intruder to knock your door in and rush down the hall to your bedroom, TV room, etc. The whole notion that reacting to a home intrusion is conducted like the preparation one makes for defense of a FOB with personnel on duty 24/7 is preposterous, unless of course you sleep strapped into your rifle.

In short, you don't get the chance to saddle up, you ride bareback, unless you want to get shot tightening the cinch.

That really depends almost entirely on the layout and size of your dwelling. I think it's a bit silly to think that the intruder will know immediately where your bedroom is and come straight for you unless it's someone you know and you don't lock your bedroom door.

Posted: 5/15/2012 2:03:38 PM EDT

[#32]

That really depends almost entirely on the layout and size of your dwelling. I think it's a bit silly to think that the intruder will know immediately where your bedroom is and come straight for you unless it's someone you know and you don't lock your bedroom door.

Ok......

Please, it was poetic license, but you have to plan for the worst.

Posted: 5/15/2012 2:46:25 PM EDT

[#33]

"the homeowner facing an intrusion is wholly unlike the LEO conducting it."

How? Perhaps from an occupational standpoint. However, both need to be able to move through a structure safely, with a firearm, while making a threat assessment. I personally don't think people should be "sweeping their homes" for intruders. However, there is still a right and wrong way to do things. If there is any reason why a homeowner should not employee the same techniques as a law enforcement officer to safely move through a structure, I would like to know what it is.

"LE experience is instructive in understanding the circumstances they find those in whose homes they are invading."

Homes they are invading??? Sounds like you don't like law enforcement. It also seems you're trying to say that a law enforcement officer's tactics are more in tune with a home invader than a homeowner. Sound principles are sound principles, regardless of which side you're on.

"You folks who keep harping on LE and military operational practices as the basis for HD tactics are completely misunderstanding the scenarios that are presented to the HOMEOWNER."

The objective of any deadly force scenario is survival so please explain how that has any bearing.

"All a fellow needs is a thin and basic understanding of what happens in a home intrusion to grasp the dubious value and in fact the probably detriment of having a sling attached to the rifle."

What happens in a home intrusion? Where did you acquire your understanding of what happens in a home intrusion and how did it sway you to find having a sling is a determent? That's a pretty subjective statement describing a highly dynamic situation.

The whole notion that reacting to a home intrusion is conducted like the preparation one makes for defense of a FOB with personnel on duty 24/7 is preposterous, unless of course you sleep strapped into your rifle. In short, you don't get the chance to saddle up, you ride bareback, unless you want to get shot tightening the cinch.

It's just a sling...

Posted: 5/15/2012 3:02:14 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
"the homeowner facing an intrusion is wholly unlike the LEO conducting it."

How? Perhaps from an occupational standpoint. However, both need to be able to move through a structure safely, with a firearm, while making a threat assessment. I personally don't think people should be "sweeping their homes" for intruders. However, there is still a right and wrong way to do things. If there is any reason why a homeowner should not employee the same techniques as a law enforcement officer to safely move through a structure, I would like to know what it is.

"LE experience is instructive in understanding the circumstances they find those in whose homes they are invading."

Homes they are invading??? Sounds like you don't like law enforcement. It also seems you're trying to say that a law enforcement officer's tactics are more in tune with a home invader than a homeowner. Sound principles are sound principles, regardless of which side you're on.

"You folks who keep harping on LE and military operational practices as the basis for HD tactics are completely misunderstanding the scenarios that are presented to the HOMEOWNER."

The objective of any deadly force scenario is survival so please explain how that has any bearing.

"All a fellow needs is a thin and basic understanding of what happens in a home intrusion to grasp the dubious value and in fact the probably detriment of having a sling attached to the rifle."

What happens in a home intrusion? Where did you acquire your understanding of what happens in a home intrusion and how did it sway you to find having a sling is a determent? That's a pretty subjective statement describing a highly dynamic situation.

The whole notion that reacting to a home intrusion is conducted like the preparation one makes for defense of a FOB with personnel on duty 24/7 is preposterous, unless of course you sleep strapped into your rifle. In short, you don't get the chance to saddle up, you ride bareback, unless you want to get shot tightening the cinch.

It's just a sling...

I am completely stunned by the few here that think LEO's, preparing to enter a structure, preparing with equipment, tactics, in company of others and armed and armored as they are, are in ANY way similar to the homeowner leisurely going about his business; watching TV, eating Doritos, chasing his wife around, taking a bath, dropping a deuce, sleeping, recovering from a head cold, or enjoying a beer with friends. Yes, I know those who have suffered home intrusions personally and none of them would have been in the slightest benefitted by a sling. For that matter, come to think of it, none would have been benefitted in the bigger picture by a rifle, and one took care of the threat with a pistol.

C'mon.

It is obvious that tactically there is simply no similarity and to cite use by officers entering a building as a model for those who suffer an intrusion by criminals is ludicrous. I mean, slings aside, this thread is interesting in its highlight of those who seem to think that life is made up of one tactical move after another, complete with equipment... To suggest otherwise would be to then suggest that we should all wear body armor all day, everywhere, under all circumstances of life. Oh, and make sure you have Zip-Ties and a Taser handy just in case. And maybe a road flare stuffed in your BVD's, too...

Yes, there is a tactical response to a home intrusion, but climbing into a sling isn't part of it.

Posted: 5/15/2012 4:16:14 PM EDT

[#35]

Are will still arguing over this?

If you like one, use one, if not then don't. Pretty simple concept.

I don't care what you use to protect yourself or how you go about doing it., just do whats easiest for you and makes you feel safe, I mean that's what really matters in a HD situation isn't it....being safe and keeping your loved ones and property safe.

I for one can get slung up in no time at all, and if I don't have that extra second to sling up I probably won't be grabbing my AR in the 1st place.

Pistol if I have no time at all, AR w/ sling if I have the time in whatever the situation may be.

However you do it, just be safe and shoot straight.

Posted: 5/15/2012 5:27:01 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Are will still arguing over this?

If you like one, use one, if not then don't. Pretty simple concept.

I don't care what you use to protect yourself or how you go about doing it., just do whats easiest for you and makes you feel safe, I mean that's what really matters in a HD situation isn't it....being safe and keeping your loved ones and property safe.

I for one can get slung up in no time at all, and if I don't have that extra second to sling up I probably won't be grabbing my AR in the 1st place.

Pistol if I have no time at all, AR w/ sling if I have the time in whatever the situation may be.

However you do it, just be safe and shoot straight.

What this guy said.

Posted: 5/15/2012 7:17:48 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

I am completely stunned by the few here that think LEO's, preparing to enter a structure, preparing with equipment, tactics, in company of others and armed and armored as they are, are in ANY way similar to the homeowner leisurely going about his business; watching TV, eating Doritos, chasing his wife around, taking a bath, dropping a deuce, sleeping, recovering from a head cold, or enjoying a beer with friends. Yes, I know those who have suffered home intrusions personally and none of them would have been in the slightest benefitted by a sling. For that matter, come to think of it, none would have been benefitted in the bigger picture by a rifle, and one took care of the threat with a pistol.

C'mon.

It is obvious that tactically there is simply no similarity and to cite use by officers entering a building as a model for those who suffer an intrusion by criminals is ludicrous. I mean, slings aside, this thread is interesting in its highlight of those who seem to think that life is made up of one tactical move after another, complete with equipment... To suggest otherwise would be to then suggest that we should all wear body armor all day, everywhere, under all circumstances of life. Oh, and make sure you have Zip-Ties and a Taser handy just in case. And maybe a road flare stuffed in your BVD's, too...

Yes, there is a tactical response to a home intrusion, but climbing into a sling isn't part of it.

EVR, I enjoyed some of your posts in other threads, but here I think you are bit disconnected to the lives of other people. I live in a small town of 2500 and have hay fields and sheep all around me, but not too long ago I lived in a crappy part of the Salt Lake valley (not exactly known for high crime rates). When living there I had the opportunity to face down some dirt-bag neighbors. Had I not been armed and had trained quite a bit I don't know what the situation would have turned out to be, but as it was I took a single shot (hit, didn't kill) and got to face down the rest of them. This wasn't a home invasion, it occurred on my property in the front yard during the day, about 4pm. Regardless, I was very happy to have a holster and if I'd been able to have an AR I would have very much needed a sling, you see my entire extended family was over and we had a total of 14 kids under the age of 12 at the house, and I immediately was herding kids and becoming very active, while the threat was still present. A sling (holster in this case) was mandatory and I'd not have it any other way.

In short, stop thinking that only LEO need training or would use it. Stop thinking that bad stuff only happens at night. Stop thinking that bad stuff only happens fast and doesn't escalate over a few minutes or an hour. Sometimes it takes an hour or two for the gangs (and courage) to show up. This is a reality. The more training a father/mother/head of household/older child/etc have the better off they are. Even if it means teaching teenagers to clear rooms. I have no idea why this idea is offensive to you, there are a lot of good skills involved that translate to a lot of other situations.

It takes all of a second to 'climb into' a sling. In a lot of situations, there is plenty of time and need.

Aside from the sneers of people for every-day Joe's buying gear and training, I wish 90% of gun owners knew how to handle themselves at least as well as a SWAT team. No reason not to, only reasons for it.

Posted: 5/15/2012 7:41:43 PM EDT

[#38]

if I'd been able to have an AR I would have very much needed a sling, you see my entire extended family was over and we had a total of 14 kids under the age of 12 at the house, and I immediately was herding kids and becoming very active, while the threat was still present. A sling (holster in this case) was mandatory and I'd not have it any other way.

In short, stop thinking that only LEO need training or would use it. Stop thinking that bad stuff only happens at night. Stop thinking that bad stuff only happens fast and doesn't escalate over a few minutes or an hour. Sometimes it takes an hour or two for the gangs (and courage) to show up. This is a reality. The more training a father/mother/head of household/older child/etc have the better off they are. Even if it means teaching teenagers to clear rooms. I have no idea why this idea is offensive to you, there are a lot of good skills involved that translate to a lot of other situations.

It takes all of a second to 'climb into' a sling. In a lot of situations, there is plenty of time and need.

Aside from the sneers of people for every-day Joe's buying gear and training, I wish 90% of gun owners knew how to handle themselves at least as well as a SWAT team. No reason not to, only reasons for it.

Sorry, but you completely miss my point, and likely it is my fault.

I am not saying TRAINING is not needed. I am saying the TYPE of training needed for defense of home is quite different in specifics than that needed for those involved in an entry.

I'm also not saying a sling will NEVER be needed. I am saying that in almost all circumstances where home invasion is the threat faced, a sling will be of no help and likely more trouble than good.

TRAINING is essential, but it is the type of training that is necessary to prepare a person for a threat. There are likely many that understand what I am saying, and some that do not.

The point is that a sling is of such little benefit on an HD rifle/longarm and that under a few and singularly few circumstances that hanging one on a rifle is of little import. Its downsides are many, its benefits few.

You make a number of other points I agree with 100%.

I myself have experienced a number of threats, both here and in southern Africa in Natal during the unrest of the '80's under very lonely circumstances, and I know a number of people who have had tragedies occur as well under what could be considered "home defence" situations. A sling was and would be of little help, and some detriment.

And a holster is decidedly NOT a sling, if only because a pistol is NOT a rifle.

I wish all the best, here, and am not trying to be argumentative, but rather to defend a position due to personal and close experience I will not be or at least have not been as of yet moved. As for those who want to use a sling, by all means, have at it.

If you have time to suit up, armor up and sling up, well, then by all means do so. Just don't expect your opponent to grant you the leisure to do so.

Posted: 5/15/2012 8:58:35 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

if I'd been able to have an AR I would have very much needed a sling, you see my entire extended family was over and we had a total of 14 kids under the age of 12 at the house, and I immediately was herding kids and becoming very active, while the threat was still present. A sling (holster in this case) was mandatory and I'd not have it any other way.

In short, stop thinking that only LEO need training or would use it. Stop thinking that bad stuff only happens at night. Stop thinking that bad stuff only happens fast and doesn't escalate over a few minutes or an hour. Sometimes it takes an hour or two for the gangs (and courage) to show up. This is a reality. The more training a father/mother/head of household/older child/etc have the better off they are. Even if it means teaching teenagers to clear rooms. I have no idea why this idea is offensive to you, there are a lot of good skills involved that translate to a lot of other situations.

It takes all of a second to 'climb into' a sling. In a lot of situations, there is plenty of time and need.

Aside from the sneers of people for every-day Joe's buying gear and training, I wish 90% of gun owners knew how to handle themselves at least as well as a SWAT team. No reason not to, only reasons for it.

Sorry, but you completely miss my point, and likely it is my fault.

I am not saying TRAINING is not needed. I am saying the TYPE of training needed for defense of home is quite different in specifics than that needed for those involved in an entry.

I'm also not saying a sling will NEVER be needed. I am saying that in almost all circumstances where home invasion is the threat faced, a sling will be of no help and likely more trouble than good.

TRAINING is essential, but it is the type of training that is necessary to prepare a person for a threat. There are likely many that understand what I am saying, and some that do not.

The point is that a sling is of such little benefit on an HD rifle/longarm and that under a few and singularly few circumstances that hanging one on a rifle is of little import. Its downsides are many, its benefits few.

You make a number of other points I agree with 100%.

I myself have experienced a number of threats, both here and in southern Africa in Natal during the unrest of the '80's under very lonely circumstances, and I know a number of people who have had tragedies occur as well under what could be considered "home defence" situations. A sling was and would be of little help, and some detriment.

And a holster is decidedly NOT a sling, if only because a pistol is NOT a rifle.

I wish all the best, here, and am not trying to be argumentative, but rather to defend a position due to personal and close experience I will not be or at least have not been as of yet moved. As for those who want to use a sling, by all means, have at it.

If you have time to suit up, armor up and sling up, well, then by all means do so. Just don't expect your opponent to grant you the leisure to do so.

I guess I'll start with saying I'm not trying to be argumentative either, but I have no idea from what standpoint your line of thinking comes from. Sounds to me the situation you are describing where a sling gets in the way is one where the BG knows exactly where you're at and is immediately and swiftly closing on your position giving you minimal time to employ the sling on a rifle as it was designed. My thing is, if they're closing that fast on your position, I highly doubt you would have enough time to even grab a rifle unless its in bed with you.

For me I have a handgun at the ready also for immediate use while I'm in bed for just that type of situation (which admittedly may not be what many do) however it seems to make sense. If you don't have enough time to properly sling a rifle (which takes no more than a extra second or two) then you don't have time to make it to the rifle to begin with.

I just for some reason can't seem to wrap my head around your aversion to adding a level of retention to your rifle. You are obviously in a close quarters situation where the BG will most likely be no farther than a few feet away if contact were to occur. I would want every way of keeping me and that rifle attached as possible.

Now if you are referring to a situation where you hear a noise, have no other reason to leave your immediate location, barricade yourself, and then call 911, I'm inclined to agree with you that a sling is not necessary and possibly even detrimental. However I ask you to provide one logical scenario where a sling could be detrimental if you're not barricading. And I'm sorry the comment "suit up, armor up, and sling up" makes this out to be 100x more difficult than it really is. If you spend even a marginal amount of time with your rifle setup with a sling, and use a little repetition, which we all know makes it permanent, that slinging up can be an automatic thing, that realistically requires no more than an added second or two of your time.

Posted: 5/15/2012 8:58:55 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Sorry, but you completely miss my point, and likely it is my fault.

I am not saying TRAINING is not needed. I am saying the TYPE of training needed for defense of home is quite different in specifics than that needed for those involved in an entry.

I'm also not saying a sling will NEVER be needed. I am saying that in almost all circumstances where home invasion is the threat faced, a sling will be of no help and likely more trouble than good.

TRAINING is essential, but it is the type of training that is necessary to prepare a person for a threat. There are likely many that understand what I am saying, and some that do not.

The point is that a sling is of such little benefit on an HD rifle/longarm and that under a few and singularly few circumstances that hanging one on a rifle is of little import. Its downsides are many, its benefits few.

You make a number of other points I agree with 100%.

I myself have experienced a number of threats, both here and in southern Africa in Natal during the unrest of the '80's under very lonely circumstances, and I know a number of people who have had tragedies occur as well under what could be considered "home defence" situations. A sling was and would be of little help, and some detriment.

And a holster is decidedly NOT a sling, if only because a pistol is NOT a rifle.

I wish all the best, here, and am not trying to be argumentative, but rather to defend a position due to personal and close experience I will not be or at least have not been as of yet moved. a As for those who want to use a sling, by all means, have at it.

If you have time to suit up, armor up and sling up, well, then by all means do so. Just don't expect your opponent to grant you the leisure to do so.

I think your underlying assumption is that most/all "home defense" situations are actually home invasions, where the situation generally plays out as:
Homeowner is asleep, hears door crash or the invader bump into something in the dark.
The badguy knows exactly where you sleep and/or has very very few rooms to check (1 bedroom apartment) and is heading directly for you and not pilfering your living room/study/etc.
Homeowner has only seconds to wake up, equip him/herself with a weapon and barricade the bedroom door or go out into the house to find other family members.
A sling may indeed have lesser utility in this situation where seconds count, and may even be a hinderence where you spend one of those precious seconds slinging it.

On the other hand, there are many many other situations that can be considered home defense in which a sling would be extremely useful.

As others have stated, living in a high-crime area or an area known for gang activity can cause confrontations that take longer to play out. The pros of using a sling when you have the 2 seconds it takes to throw it on greatly outweigh the cons. Especially if you are with young children that you may have to herd.

There are also situations in which you own more than an apartment in a city, where your "home" extends out for acres. A sling is very important when travelling as well.

Posted: 5/16/2012 3:35:11 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
To cut to the chase, anyone who says their sling will "get caught up," or is "going to get in the way," or "is unnecessary" doesn't understand how to correctly utilize it. I believe most of you are envisioning a two point strap swinging freely, when the correct use on a modern carbine involves the sling on you, adjusted tight, and utilized for retention of the firearm.

Bingo!

Posted: 5/16/2012 5:19:33 AM EDT

[#42]

I think this is a great thread. Thought provoking and quite interesting.

I think your underlying assumption is that most/all "home defense" situations are actually home invasions,

Not exactly, but these are the scenarios where literally every second counts, every split second. Quite literally, the fight often starts with stuff getting grabbed off the kitchen counter and thrown, or lamps being shoved at an opponent, etc, etc, where the FIGHT starts even before the hand grabs the rifle. No, I do not want a sling attached to the rifle when my hand reaches it. And NO, I do not want the rifle attached to me in any way that may inhibit unusual shooting stances. And YES, I, like others, have "mapped out" my home to know what and where they may occur.

Now, of course in many/most cases the intruder doesn't know exactly the lay of the home, but if you study home invasions, you see the chaos that occurs and the rush that starts it off are demanding of the most instinctive reaction {well thought out beforehand and, yes, "trained"} a homeowner can bring to bear. Part of this involves a gun, part, not. The response and preparation are far more involved than "what gun do I set up and how". Let's just say I know people who have had bad past experiences who have guns and other things stashed about in such a way that they are safe, inoccuous, and ready.

where the situation generally plays out as:
Homeowner is asleep, hears door crash or the invader bump into something in the dark.

Think; Gear for the worst, and if you want to leave a sling rolled up in the bedside table, then do so. In the scenarios that are being presented as sling-friendly here, there would be enough time to ATTACH a sling to a rifle, not just climb into one. But I submit that this is a decision that can be made in relative "leisure", but the gun should be left set up for those scenarios where there is almost no time to think at all.

You guys who think that sling is such a requirement really need to ask yourselves; Is it ESSENTIAL? In the worst of scenarios, which I would suggest is likely a violent home invasion, it is not.

The badguy knows exactly where you sleep and/or has very very few rooms to check (1 bedroom apartment) and is heading directly for you and not pilfering your living room/study/etc.
Homeowner has only seconds to wake up, equip him/herself with a weapon and barricade the bedroom door or go out into the house to find other family members.
A sling may indeed have lesser utility in this situation where seconds count, and may even be a hinderence where you spend one of those precious seconds slinging it.

Basically, correct. And this is the scenario you must expect to occur because it is the most difficult to plan for. And they happen. It is fast, violent, extremely shocking, allowing of minimal thought at the moment {Are they Cops entering the wrong house????? What the >>>>>? Why??....}, and no time to gear up, adjust, etc. As a technical issue, many slings when set up perfectly when you are clothed would be sloppy if you were naked, but would you set your rig up to fit you naked when you might have just arrived home in the winter in heavy clothing? None of these are "for sures". All of them need to be thought thru.

On the other hand, there are many many other situations that can be considered home defense in which a sling would be extremely useful.

As others have stated, living in a high-crime area or an area known for gang activity can cause confrontations that take longer to play out. The pros of using a sling when you have the 2 seconds it takes to throw it on greatly outweigh the cons. Especially if you are with young children that you may have to herd.

There are also situations in which you own more than an apartment in a city, where your "home" extends out for acres. A sling is very important when travelling as well.

Well, I understand that quite personally. I have slings. I use them. Under a whole variety of circumstances I would use them and do. I would not, however, set up a primary HOME defence rifle {or any other long-arm} with a sling, as noted. I'll also say, again, that the best reasons presented here for attaching a sling are related not to weapon USE, but to weapon retention while doing something else {saving Granny, etc}. Those are wholly legitimate reasons for a sling.

Again, I am surprised here that many seem willing to discount the very scenario where the gun would absolutely be needed and no sling could even be used, in order to equip for a scenario where the sling might be a help but could be attached OR in fact, where a secondary arm so equipped could be used.

I do wish you well. Great thread.

Posted: 5/16/2012 6:18:43 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

I don't like it. I've used a sling in enough matches to demonstrate for me it only gets in the way and screws me up.

Such as blocking the safety, getting in the trigger guard, jamming the charging handle. and generally strangling me/things at times.

Some people sound like they've never used a sling in a stressful environment. It's one thing to practice with a sling in front of a mirror and it's another to use it both on and off the body.

I have never had those problems in classes or matches. I was at a class a few years ago where some instructors I like said they were getting away from having a sling always attached. I don't keep a sling on my home rifle, but I can understand why some people do.

Posted: 5/16/2012 7:01:03 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
"the homeowner facing an intrusion is wholly unlike the LEO conducting it."

How? Perhaps from an occupational standpoint. However, both need to be able to move through a structure safely, with a firearm, while making a threat assessment. I personally don't think people should be "sweeping their homes" for intruders. However, there is still a right and wrong way to do things. If there is any reason why a homeowner should not employee the same techniques as a law enforcement officer to safely move through a structure, I would like to know what it is.

"LE experience is instructive in understanding the circumstances they find those in whose homes they are invading."

Homes they are invading??? Sounds like you don't like law enforcement. It also seems you're trying to say that a law enforcement officer's tactics are more in tune with a home invader than a homeowner. Sound principles are sound principles, regardless of which side you're on.

"You folks who keep harping on LE and military operational practices as the basis for HD tactics are completely misunderstanding the scenarios that are presented to the HOMEOWNER."

The objective of any deadly force scenario is survival so please explain how that has any bearing.

"All a fellow needs is a thin and basic understanding of what happens in a home intrusion to grasp the dubious value and in fact the probably detriment of having a sling attached to the rifle."

What happens in a home intrusion? Where did you acquire your understanding of what happens in a home intrusion and how did it sway you to find having a sling is a determent? That's a pretty subjective statement describing a highly dynamic situation.

The whole notion that reacting to a home intrusion is conducted like the preparation one makes for defense of a FOB with personnel on duty 24/7 is preposterous, unless of course you sleep strapped into your rifle. In short, you don't get the chance to saddle up, you ride bareback, unless you want to get shot tightening the cinch.

It's just a sling...

I am completely stunned by the few here that think LEO's, preparing to enter a structure, preparing with equipment, tactics, in company of others and armed and armored as they are, are in ANY way similar to the homeowner leisurely going about his business; watching TV, eating Doritos, chasing his wife around, taking a bath, dropping a deuce, sleeping, recovering from a head cold, or enjoying a beer with friends. Yes, I know those who have suffered home intrusions personally and none of them would have been in the slightest benefitted by a sling. For that matter, come to think of it, none would have been benefitted in the bigger picture by a rifle, and one took care of the threat with a pistol.

C'mon.

It is obvious that tactically there is simply no similarity and to cite use by officers entering a building as a model for those who suffer an intrusion by criminals is ludicrous. I mean, slings aside, this thread is interesting in its highlight of those who seem to think that life is made up of one tactical move after another, complete with equipment... To suggest otherwise would be to then suggest that we should all wear body armor all day, everywhere, under all circumstances of life. Oh, and make sure you have Zip-Ties and a Taser handy just in case. And maybe a road flare stuffed in your BVD's, too...

Yes, there is a tactical response to a home intrusion, but climbing into a sling isn't part of it.

Once again, you've focused on the wrong thing. As you put it:

I am completely stunned by the few here that think LEO's, preparing to enter a structure, preparing with equipment, tactics, in company of others and armed and armored as they are, are in ANY way similar to the homeowner leisurely going about his business; watching TV, eating Doritos, chasing his wife around, taking a bath, dropping a deuce, sleeping, recovering from a head cold, or enjoying a beer with friends.

The thing is, no one is contesting this point. Everyone knows these obvious difference exists - they're just irrelevant. The point is, how a homeowner moves through their home, searching for family members for example, and how law enforcement move to contact through a structure, are fundamentally the same. The key word is "movement." If a home owner wants to increase their survivability, they should take a trip from people who practice and execute these types of "movements" with great efficiency and success - and with a sling. Slings have a pretty low learning cure, which is why they make sense for home owners. Unlike zip ties, body armor, tasers and other irrelevant equipment you've listed to sensationalize your point. I personally don't care that you choose not to use a sling - it's not my goal to sway you. But the idea that you think you've found a better way to do things based on second hand accounts and other people's experiences, is a bit naive. Hypotheticals and the like are rubbish compared to actual experience.

Posted: 5/16/2012 7:04:18 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
To cut to the chase, anyone who says their sling will "get caught up," or is "going to get in the way," or "is unnecessary" doesn't understand how to correctly utilize it. I believe most of you are envisioning a two point strap swinging freely, when the correct use on a modern carbine involves the sling on you, adjusted tight, and utilized for retention of the firearm.

Wow thanks for the information Capt. Obvious. I thought the sling went around my neck.

Posted: 5/16/2012 7:14:49 AM EDT

[#46]

no sling on my HD rifle for me

personal preference, nothing more

Posted: 5/16/2012 7:35:27 AM EDT

[#47]

The thing is, no one is contesting this point. Everyone knows these obvious difference exists - they're just irrelevant. The point is, how a homeowner moves through their home, searching for family members for example, and how law enforcement move to contact through a structure, are fundamentally the same. The key word is "movement." If a home owner wants to increase their survivability, they should take a trip from people who practice and execute these types of "movements" with great efficiency and success - and with a sling. Slings have a pretty low learning cure, which is why they make sense for home owners. Unlike zip ties, body armor, tasers and other irrelevant equipment you've listed to sensationalize your point. I personally don't care that you choose not to use a sling - it's not my goal to sway you. But the idea that you think you've found a better way to do things based on second hand accounts and other people's experiences, is a bit naive. Hypotheticals and the like are rubbish compared to actual experience.

I think some people have the idea that the only LEO's that enter a home are SWAT. Most building searches (post-alarm, post/in-progress burglary, etc) are done by either regular patrol officers and sometimes K9...not SWAT. It's also typical to leave the rifles in the car. A rifle is big ole hunk of equipment for someone to grab when you're working in tight quarters like most homes. Weapon retention is my biggest justification for a sling. Even if someone were to get a rifle out of my hands, it would be tough for them to turn it against me if I have it slung.

Posted: 5/16/2012 8:01:39 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:If you accept this logic and you would not have your handgun in your holster if you are investigating that loud bang at the front door, then the conclusion is that you will not have a sling on your rifle if that is your preferred HD weapon.

While you wouldn't have your handgun in your holster, and similarly you wouldn't have your rifle dangling from a sling when you are investigating a potential threat. You would however appreciate the utility of a sling/holster before and after the act of actually shooting. A sling or holster simply allows you to keep the firearm securely with you while you use both hands. As others have said the sling/holster allows you to use your hands without relinquishing the weapon for whatever the circumstances may be.

My HD carbine has a sling.

Cameron

Posted: 5/16/2012 9:26:48 AM EDT

[#49]

But the idea that you think you've found a better way to do things based on second hand accounts and other people's experiences, is a bit naive. Hypotheticals and the like are rubbish compared to actual experience.

The rest of your post is a pretty good summation of the differences we have and to some degree continued lack of understanding some of you guys have about my position.

The last bit here does warrant a response and that is quite simply that my position is not based on hypotheticals of home defence, but practical experience.

If you have time to use a sling, good for you. Don't count on it, and yes, they can get in the way, simply put.

Walk yourself thru, or better yet, train for an unexpected intrusion, and it becomes really quite obvious. I hesitate to use the term "common sense" because that implies lack of training and experience when in fact experience is what my position is based on entirely.

To repeat, and then I think I've said pretty much everything I can on the subject; if you have time to use a sling, you likely have time to attach it. Do so if you like. There are times when it might serve a desired purpose. Fending off an unexpected attack is not, however, one of them.

Cheers!

Posted: 5/16/2012 11:24:53 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I don't like it. I've used a sling in enough matches to demonstrate for me it only gets in the way and screws me up.

Such as blocking the safety, getting in the trigger guard, jamming the charging handle. and generally strangling me/things at times.

Some people sound like they've never used a sling in a stressful environment. It's one thing to practice with a sling in front of a mirror and it's another to use it both on and off the body.

I have never had those problems in classes or matches. I was at a class a few years ago where some instructors I like said they were getting away from having a sling always attached. I don't keep a sling on my home rifle, but I can understand why some people do.

Maybe you're not moving fast enough?

partly serious.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Do you really need, or want, a sling on a home defense weapon? (Page 2 of 3)

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