Awesome Awesome, What a beautiful Animal!!

Legal min here

I have done it at the folks farm where shots are quite close (even then most of the time Ill use a 308)

but out west end of Nebraska no I seem to average about 200yd shots  out there and the deer are big  So I try to stay with my 7mm

Quoted: Even at 80yds-100yds, if you were able to actually hit the deer with an arrow -- which I couldn't -- the arrow will still pass all the way through it.  Unless you hit spine, or the shoulder or hip.  The typical broad head presents quite a permanent wound channel through and through.  All the way through.

There are many 20 yard shots where the arrow doesn't go all the way thru , normally due to bone, but not always, I would not assume an arrow would have enough energy to go thru at 80 yards, they lose a lot of speed out that far, but you are correct, IMO, that a well-placed broadhead kills as dead as any bullet.  So would even argue that it is more effective than a gun, because there is no blast to scare them into knowing something bad happened and make them run off, sometimes they just trot a little after being hit with an arrow, and don't go as far.

Quoted: I've taken an AR for deer and carried 77gr SMK homebrews.  Unfortunately I have been presented with no shots while carrying an AR.   Last year a buddy of mine intercepted a deer that I was planning to harvest using his own AR.  He used the 64gr Win round you described out of a 16" 1/7 barrel.  It was an 80 or so yard shot, at dusk, using iron sights.  One shot to the vitals.  The deer made it about 10yds before it dropped like a sack of potatos.  Better than most bow kills, which is perfectly acceptable in my book.   As has been stated, load selection and shot placement are key.

Load selection and shot placement IS the key, but you have said that you had Match Kings in your rifle, bullets not designed to be used on flesh.  Now, they MAY work, but your buddy had the 64 gr. powerpoints, designed for the purpose of taking animals, and which I think would be a good bullet for close range deer...something to think about.

The best argument I ever heard on using 5.56/AR15 on deer is.............

The rifle was designed to kill a 150-200lb adult man, why would you expect any differing results when used on a 200lb deer.

I've never done it, but I have used a 7.62x39 AK.  Keep in mind in the hills of KY its rare to need to shoot above 150 meters. Most shots are in the 30-80 meter range.

Quoted: The best argument I ever heard on using 5.56/AR15 on deer is............. The rifle was designed to kill a 150-200lb adult man, why would you expect any differing results when used on a 200lb deer. I've never done it, but I have used a 7.62x39 AK.  Keep in mind in the hills of KY its rare to need to shoot above 150 meters. Most shots are in the 30-80 meter range.

Because I would consider a 200 lb deer to be about 5 times tougher than any human I know of.

I Agree on a 200lb deer being one tough animal...Living and hunting in south texas, I really do prefer my 30-06, simply because you never know what you are going to see, and it has been my experience that it is more suited to taking any game I may see. Not getting into shot placement, I dont think anyone would disagree that the '06 carries more initial knockdown power. And having taken many, many deer, 9 times out of ten, when you knock them down on the first shot, they typically don't get up (typically). I was raised as an ethical hunter, and although I have faith in my abilities to place a bullet where I want to, and nobody will argue with you that if you put a .223 right in the ear, or right through the neck, severing the spine, you will get a kill...but the '06 wont make that laser hole if you dont hit your mark, allowing the animal to spin and run which is a nightmare in south texas brush. There really is no argument in my opinion, it is simply a matter of personal preference, and when my goal is to hunt game, my preference is 30-06, tried and true.

I'm going to shoot a doe or two with mine this year just for the fun of it, though I'll have a .270 or .300 wm with me as well in case the need presents itself for a more serious shot. A couple of years ago I took my double rifle with me to whack a doe.  In a situation just the opposite of shooting a small 223, in this case I was curious about hunting a deer with a .470!

Quoted: The best argument I ever heard on using 5.56/AR15 on deer is............. The rifle was designed to kill a 150-200lb adult man, why would you expect any differing results when used on a 200lb deer.

The 5.56mm bullet used in an M-16 has a severe disadvantage to a larger bullet in terms of its knockdown power, whether it's being used on humans or deer. The concern about the caliber's inefficiency in combat is well-documented. The military has suggested that our forces should learn how to double-tap and hit an adversary twice to offset the small bullet's inherent weaknesses.
To suggest that a similar approach could make the bullet as effective on deer as humans assumes a primary issue, and that's that a hunter could quickly get a second shot into a deer. To make this assumption disregards the enormous disparity in speed and quickness of the two species, which makes the suggestion that the use of the gun between deer and humans being comparable quite weak.
No doubt a .223 or 5.56mm can kill a deer, especially with good shot placement. However, the discussion of the effectiveness of a particular caliber should never simply include the question of whether or not a gun can kill a particular animal--it must also include the issue of knockdown power and the efficiency of that kill.  Do you want to hit something and have it routinely go down in short order or are you comfortable potentially have to track something for extended distances? That's why we use big bullets on larger game.

Quoted: 500 pound scimitar horned oryx gut shot twice by the hunter, finished off with one shot to the neck with a 55gr sp in the neck at 75 yards. Not my 1st choice but the only gun I had with me. I've also shot elk, red stag, axis deer, fallow deer, tons of hogs and many other exotics with the AR. Bullet placement is the most important factor not caliber, just don't take bad shots. i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/robbfurlow/ORYX.jpg

Let me get this right.
So you were out hunting for Oryx and the only gun you had was an AR? (were you the guide or hunter, either way that seems rather off...) What kind of situation was that ? Not to mention it wad gut shot twice....doesnt sound very well placed to me...


Ok, since we know that CANT BE in Africa due to the fact you have an AR in the pic...

Ive seen a few "fenced in hunts" in my day" those animals are about as strong as a tooth pick...

I saw the most pathetic and haggared looking heard of buff on some fenced in place in Tx...

IF that was a fenced in hunt...dont try to tell us that those animals really presented a challange for shot placement...and yet it was gut shot?

I beleive you have shot elk with an AR (was it fenced in too or on your own guided hunt?), but how many legit outfitters in CO, NM and the like would guide you using an AR?...they see what works year in and year out, by people who show up to camp with the right and wrong stuff....hence why the majority like 300 mags.  accurate reloading and 24hour campfire.com are great sources of info.

Quoted: Quoted: 500 pound scimitar horned oryx gut shot twice by the hunter, finished off with one shot to the neck with a 55gr sp in the neck at 75 yards. Not my 1st choice but the only gun I had with me. I've also shot elk, red stag, axis deer, fallow deer, tons of hogs and many other exotics with the AR. Bullet placement is the most important factor not caliber, just don't take bad shots. i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/robbfurlow/ORYX.jpg Let me get this right. So you were out hunting for Oryx and the only gun you had was an AR? (were you the guide or hunter, either way that seems rather off...) What kind of situation was that ? Not to mention it wad gut shot twice....doesnt sound very well placed to me... Ok, since we know that CANT BE in Africa due to the fact you have an AR in the pic... Ive seen a few "fenced in hunts" in my day" those animals are about as strong as a tooth pick... I saw the most pathetic and haggared looking heard of buff on some fenced in place in Tx... IF that was a fenced in hunt...dont try to tell us that those animals really presented a challange for shot placement...and yet it was gut shot? I beleive you have shot elk with an AR (was it fenced in too or on your own guided hunt?), but how many legit outfitters in CO, NM and the like would guide you using an AR?...they see what works year in and year out, by people who show up to camp with the right and wrong stuff....hence why the majority like 300 mags.  accurate reloading and 24hour campfire.com are great sources of info.

The hunter took the photo, the guy on the left was the guide. The oryx ran across the road while I was driving across the ranch. I finished it off.
This is Texas, there are every species of animal you can conceive of here. Thick south Texas brush sometimes doesn't give you much of a shot. You obviously have no clue what 25000 acres of south Texas brush country looks like where you can only see sometimes less than 20 yards. I'm sure you probably have seen some pathetic animals on some places that don't feed 60 tons a month of protein feed. Elk were all killed here too. I prefer a 300wby for my own hunting.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 500 pound scimitar horned oryx gut shot twice by the hunter, finished off with one shot to the neck with a 55gr sp in the neck at 75 yards. Not my 1st choice but the only gun I had with me. I've also shot elk, red stag, axis deer, fallow deer, tons of hogs and many other exotics with the AR. Bullet placement is the most important factor not caliber, just don't take bad shots. i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/robbfurlow/ORYX.jpg Let me get this right. So you were out hunting for Oryx and the only gun you had was an AR? (were you the guide or hunter, either way that seems rather off...) What kind of situation was that ? Not to mention it wad gut shot twice....doesnt sound very well placed to me... Ok, since we know that CANT BE in Africa due to the fact you have an AR in the pic... Ive seen a few "fenced in hunts" in my day" those animals are about as strong as a tooth pick... I saw the most pathetic and haggared looking heard of buff on some fenced in place in Tx... IF that was a fenced in hunt...dont try to tell us that those animals really presented a challange for shot placement...and yet it was gut shot? I beleive you have shot elk with an AR (was it fenced in too or on your own guided hunt?), but how many legit outfitters in CO, NM and the like would guide you using an AR?...they see what works year in and year out, by people who show up to camp with the right and wrong stuff....hence why the majority like 300 mags.  accurate reloading and 24hour campfire.com are great sources of info. The hunter took the photo, the guy on the left was the guide. The oryx ran across the road while I was driving across the ranch. I finished it off. This is Texas, there are every species of animal you can conceive of here. Thick south Texas brush sometimes doesn't give you much of a shot. You obviously have no clue what 25000 acres of south Texas brush country looks like where you can only see sometimes less than 20 yards. I'm sure you probably have seen some pathetic animals on some places that don't feed 60 tons a month of protein feed. Elk were all killed here too. I prefer a 300wby for my own hunting.

Well thats all fine, but when you post that youve shot elk and stag with an AR...dont turn around and say you use/prefer a 300 WBY mag for hunting them...Yes I know thick brush and I have a hunted on a very large ranches in Texas...one of which is called the Lambs head, next to the Nail, in Albany......I know how thick it is, as well has how historic. Um despite what you might say about "every species of animal" being in South texas...thats hardly true. I know Aoudad are considered indigenous now, but only due to the massive amounts of them that were brought or bought for fenced in places, same would go for other african animals now roaming free in Tx, it wouldnt be so, unless situations like the aforementioned hadnt occured.  

By your statement, due to the 20 yard shots generally given in THICK brush...that a AR would be better then say? I short handling scout rifle like rugers frontier (sp?) or even a marlin brush gun like a 45-70 1895.
I would think with those BIG So. Tx piggies...your want something with a bit of punch, esp if it was one of those 300 pounders bearing down on you. But thats for another time...

So if you own the 25,000 ac place, then Id say your a great authority on all things associated with So Tx hunting.  
Ive seen tons of pathetic animals fenced in AND FED A TON from 1000 lb monarch game feeders...they loose some mentality when Stag, buff, elk, oryx, Roe, and others, not used to being in the same enviroment are grouped togeather...Ive seen it, as well as others have, Thellurider knows what I speak of.


So if the Oryx ran across the road while you were driving, you shot someone elses animal (I dont even want to know if you got out of the car or not...)? Doesnt make a ton of sense with the info you provided, or maybe I mis read it...also, if you shot another guys animal, why the heck would he want to be in the pic with your gun and not his own which he used? That seems kinda strange. Or maybe I am mis reading what you wrote. So you finished it off with an AR, or he shot it with and AR???? if he shot it with an AR and you finished it, that kinda shows that the AR didnt do a good job.  IF you finshed it with an AR, hes holding a gun, you used to finish it with?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 500 pound scimitar horned oryx gut shot twice by the hunter, finished off with one shot to the neck with a 55gr sp in the neck at 75 yards. Not my 1st choice but the only gun I had with me. I've also shot elk, red stag, axis deer, fallow deer, tons of hogs and many other exotics with the AR. Bullet placement is the most important factor not caliber, just don't take bad shots. i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/robbfurlow/ORYX.jpg Let me get this right. So you were out hunting for Oryx and the only gun you had was an AR? (were you the guide or hunter, either way that seems rather off...) What kind of situation was that ? Not to mention it wad gut shot twice....doesnt sound very well placed to me... Ok, since we know that CANT BE in Africa due to the fact you have an AR in the pic... Ive seen a few "fenced in hunts" in my day" those animals are about as strong as a tooth pick... I saw the most pathetic and haggared looking heard of buff on some fenced in place in Tx... IF that was a fenced in hunt...dont try to tell us that those animals really presented a challange for shot placement...and yet it was gut shot? I beleive you have shot elk with an AR (was it fenced in too or on your own guided hunt?), but how many legit outfitters in CO, NM and the like would guide you using an AR?...they see what works year in and year out, by people who show up to camp with the right and wrong stuff....hence why the majority like 300 mags.  accurate reloading and 24hour campfire.com are great sources of info. The hunter took the photo, the guy on the left was the guide. The oryx ran across the road while I was driving across the ranch. I finished it off. This is Texas, there are every species of animal you can conceive of here. Thick south Texas brush sometimes doesn't give you much of a shot. You obviously have no clue what 25000 acres of south Texas brush country looks like where you can only see sometimes less than 20 yards. I'm sure you probably have seen some pathetic animals on some places that don't feed 60 tons a month of protein feed. Elk were all killed here too. I prefer a 300wby for my own hunting. Well thats all fine, but when you post that youve shot elk and stag with an AR...dont turn around and say you use/prefer a 300 WBY mag for hunting them...Yes I know thick brush and I have a hunted on a very large ranches in Texas...one of which is called the Lambs head, next to the Nail, in Albany......I know how thick it is, as well has how historic. Um despite what you might say about "every species of animal" being in South texas...thats hardly true. I know Aoudad are considered indigenous now, but only due to the massive amounts of them that were brought or bought for fenced in places, same would go for other african animals now roaming free in Tx, it wouldnt be so, unless situations like the aforementioned hadnt occured.   By your statement, due to the 20 yard shots generally given in THICK brush...that a AR would be better then say? I short handling scout rifle like rugers frontier (sp?) or even a marlin brush gun like a 45-70 1895. I would think with those BIG So. Tx piggies...your want something with a bit of punch, esp if it was one of those 300 pounders bearing down on you. But thats for another time... So if you own the 25,000 ac place, then Id say your a great authority on all things associated with So Tx hunting.   Ive seen tons of pathetic animals fenced in AND FED A TON from 1000 lb monarch game feeders...they loose some mentality when Stag, buff, elk, oryx, Roe, and others, not used to being in the same enviroment are grouped togeather...Ive seen it, as well as others have, Thellurider knows what I speak of. So if the Oryx ran across the road while you were driving, you shot someone elses animal (I dont even want to know if you got out of the car or not...)? Doesnt make a ton of sense with the info you provided, or maybe I mis read it...also, if you shot another guys animal, why the heck would he want to be in the pic with your gun and not his own which he used? That seems kinda strange. Or maybe I am mis reading what you wrote. So you finished it off with an AR, or he shot it with and AR???? if he shot it with an AR and you finished it, that kinda shows that the AR didnt do a good job.  IF you finshed it with an AR, hes holding a gun, you used to finish it with?

WTF!!! This happens way to often on AR15. I tried to post a nice photo of a beautiful animal and you think it needs more of an explanation. Just enjoy (or don't) the damn picture. I did not mean that I think an AR is preferable in any way. Shots are not 20 yards, just visibility at times. By every species, I meant exotic animals only. Aoudad are not considered indiginous they are free roaming exotics like the Axis that have been here for a long time, and there are no roe deer in Texas except at a zoo. The pathetic animals you talk about are on a place where the carring capacity has been exceeded.
Trying to address the points you mentioned; Yes I got out of the truck and trailed the animal (no blood) about 300 yards and shot him for the hunter who had gut shot it twice with a 7mm, who was greatful he would be able to retrieve the animal he was going to have to pay $3500 for.
I am the one holding the gun. He wanted me to pose with it because he loved the gun.
Yes, I am an authority on Texas hunting. My operation hosts over 3000 hunters per year, probably more that any other hunting operation in Texas if not the US. And have worked for some of the most well known ranches in the state including the one that started the exotic game business.  

Just insert a loaded 30 rd mag and keep shooting until it dies..or until you need to reload...then shoot it until it dies.  I don't see the problem.
You are right to disregard the excruciating pain that the animal will endure. It's agony is absolutely meaningless when compared to the joy that you will derive from killing something with your AR. That is all that matters. Killing something with your AR.

Quoted: Just insert a loaded 30 rd mag and keep shooting until it dies..or until you need to reload...then shoot it until it dies.  I don't see the problem. You are right to disregard the excruciating pain that the animal will endure. It's agony is absolutely meaningless when compared to the joy that you will derive from killing something with your AR. That is all that matters. Killing something with your AR.

Oh man, I know your joking.....right?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 500 pound scimitar horned oryx gut shot twice by the hunter, finished off with one shot to the neck with a 55gr sp in the neck at 75 yards. Not my 1st choice but the only gun I had with me. I've also shot elk, red stag, axis deer, fallow deer, tons of hogs and many other exotics with the AR. Bullet placement is the most important factor not caliber, just don't take bad shots. i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/robbfurlow/ORYX.jpg Let me get this right. So you were out hunting for Oryx and the only gun you had was an AR? (were you the guide or hunter, either way that seems rather off...) What kind of situation was that ? Not to mention it wad gut shot twice....doesnt sound very well placed to me... Ok, since we know that CANT BE in Africa due to the fact you have an AR in the pic... Ive seen a few "fenced in hunts" in my day" those animals are about as strong as a tooth pick... I saw the most pathetic and haggared looking heard of buff on some fenced in place in Tx... IF that was a fenced in hunt...dont try to tell us that those animals really presented a challange for shot placement...and yet it was gut shot? I beleive you have shot elk with an AR (was it fenced in too or on your own guided hunt?), but how many legit outfitters in CO, NM and the like would guide you using an AR?...they see what works year in and year out, by people who show up to camp with the right and wrong stuff....hence why the majority like 300 mags.  accurate reloading and 24hour campfire.com are great sources of info. The hunter took the photo, the guy on the left was the guide. The oryx ran across the road while I was driving across the ranch. I finished it off. This is Texas, there are every species of animal you can conceive of here. Thick south Texas brush sometimes doesn't give you much of a shot. You obviously have no clue what 25000 acres of south Texas brush country looks like where you can only see sometimes less than 20 yards. I'm sure you probably have seen some pathetic animals on some places that don't feed 60 tons a month of protein feed. Elk were all killed here too. I prefer a 300wby for my own hunting. Well thats all fine, but when you post that youve shot elk and stag with an AR...dont turn around and say you use/prefer a 300 WBY mag for hunting them...Yes I know thick brush and I have a hunted on a very large ranches in Texas...one of which is called the Lambs head, next to the Nail, in Albany......I know how thick it is, as well has how historic. Um despite what you might say about "every species of animal" being in South texas...thats hardly true. I know Aoudad are considered indigenous now, but only due to the massive amounts of them that were brought or bought for fenced in places, same would go for other african animals now roaming free in Tx, it wouldnt be so, unless situations like the aforementioned hadnt occured.   By your statement, due to the 20 yard shots generally given in THICK brush...that a AR would be better then say? I short handling scout rifle like rugers frontier (sp?) or even a marlin brush gun like a 45-70 1895. I would think with those BIG So. Tx piggies...your want something with a bit of punch, esp if it was one of those 300 pounders bearing down on you. But thats for another time... So if you own the 25,000 ac place, then Id say your a great authority on all things associated with So Tx hunting.   Ive seen tons of pathetic animals fenced in AND FED A TON from 1000 lb monarch game feeders...they loose some mentality when Stag, buff, elk, oryx, Roe, and others, not used to being in the same enviroment are grouped togeather...Ive seen it, as well as others have, Thellurider knows what I speak of. So if the Oryx ran across the road while you were driving, you shot someone elses animal (I dont even want to know if you got out of the car or not...)? Doesnt make a ton of sense with the info you provided, or maybe I mis read it...also, if you shot another guys animal, why the heck would he want to be in the pic with your gun and not his own which he used? That seems kinda strange. Or maybe I am mis reading what you wrote. So you finished it off with an AR, or he shot it with and AR???? if he shot it with an AR and you finished it, that kinda shows that the AR didnt do a good job.  IF you finshed it with an AR, hes holding a gun, you used to finish it with? WTF!!! This happens way to often on AR15. I tried to post a nice photo of a beautiful animal and you think it needs more of an explanation. Just enjoy (or don't) the damn picture. I did not mean that I think an AR is preferable in any way. Shots are not 20 yards, just visibility at times. By every species, I meant exotic animals only. Aoudad are not considered indiginous they are free roaming exotics like the Axis that have been here for a long time, and there are no roe deer in Texas except at a zoo. The pathetic animals you talk about are on a place where the carring capacity has been exceeded. Trying to address the points you mentioned; Yes I got out of the truck and trailed the animal (no blood) about 300 yards and shot him for the hunter who had gut shot it twice with a 7mm, who was greatful he would be able to retrieve the animal he was going to have to pay $3500 for. I am the one holding the gun. He wanted me to pose with it because he loved the gun. Yes, I am an authority on Texas hunting. My operation hosts over 3000 hunters per year, probably more that any other hunting operation in Texas if not the US. And have worked for some of the most well known ranches in the state including the one that started the exotic game business.

Yes, free ranging is what I meant, my mistake.
I have see roe in Texas obvisouly NOT free ranging. Some guy had them on his ranch, all fenced in, with buff, a one horned oryx and a bunch of other elk, stag and sheep. It was a shame really.



Well, since your outfit hosts so many per year, I would think you would understand why alot of other outfitters shutter when people show up into camp with guns not fit for the job. Whats the name of the outfit by the way, Id love to check it out!
I as well as my buddy do ALOT of hunting, and not just in Tx, but all over the place...Hornady also sponsors us. I can provide you all the info on that if youd like.

these 223 for deer threads pop up every fall, and never acomplish much beyond bickering. usually why I DONT post in them, but I was curious when I saw your pic. Yes it is a beautiful animal, but looks kind of funny knowing its background and all of a sudden theres a cactus behind it...

So the hunter whos animal you shot wanted a pic of you with the gun and it?  Ok ill leave it alone, I cant laugh any more.

For 3,500 bucks one can go to Africa and shoot the thing in ITS INDIGINIOUS enviro. (plus the cost of airfair )

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 500 pound scimitar horned oryx gut shot twice by the hunter, finished off with one shot to the neck with a 55gr sp in the neck at 75 yards. Not my 1st choice but the only gun I had with me. I've also shot elk, red stag, axis deer, fallow deer, tons of hogs and many other exotics with the AR. Bullet placement is the most important factor not caliber, just don't take bad shots. i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/robbfurlow/ORYX.jpg Let me get this right. So you were out hunting for Oryx and the only gun you had was an AR? (were you the guide or hunter, either way that seems rather off...) What kind of situation was that ? Not to mention it wad gut shot twice....doesnt sound very well placed to me... Ok, since we know that CANT BE in Africa due to the fact you have an AR in the pic... Ive seen a few "fenced in hunts" in my day" those animals are about as strong as a tooth pick... I saw the most pathetic and haggared looking heard of buff on some fenced in place in Tx... IF that was a fenced in hunt...dont try to tell us that those animals really presented a challange for shot placement...and yet it was gut shot? I beleive you have shot elk with an AR (was it fenced in too or on your own guided hunt?), but how many legit outfitters in CO, NM and the like would guide you using an AR?...they see what works year in and year out, by people who show up to camp with the right and wrong stuff....hence why the majority like 300 mags.  accurate reloading and 24hour campfire.com are great sources of info. The hunter took the photo, the guy on the left was the guide. The oryx ran across the road while I was driving across the ranch. I finished it off. This is Texas, there are every species of animal you can conceive of here. Thick south Texas brush sometimes doesn't give you much of a shot. You obviously have no clue what 25000 acres of south Texas brush country looks like where you can only see sometimes less than 20 yards. I'm sure you probably have seen some pathetic animals on some places that don't feed 60 tons a month of protein feed. Elk were all killed here too. I prefer a 300wby for my own hunting. Well thats all fine, but when you post that youve shot elk and stag with an AR...dont turn around and say you use/prefer a 300 WBY mag for hunting them...Yes I know thick brush and I have a hunted on a very large ranches in Texas...one of which is called the Lambs head, next to the Nail, in Albany......I know how thick it is, as well has how historic. Um despite what you might say about "every species of animal" being in South texas...thats hardly true. I know Aoudad are considered indigenous now, but only due to the massive amounts of them that were brought or bought for fenced in places, same would go for other african animals now roaming free in Tx, it wouldnt be so, unless situations like the aforementioned hadnt occured.   By your statement, due to the 20 yard shots generally given in THICK brush...that a AR would be better then say? I short handling scout rifle like rugers frontier (sp?) or even a marlin brush gun like a 45-70 1895. I would think with those BIG So. Tx piggies...your want something with a bit of punch, esp if it was one of those 300 pounders bearing down on you. But thats for another time... So if you own the 25,000 ac place, then Id say your a great authority on all things associated with So Tx hunting.   Ive seen tons of pathetic animals fenced in AND FED A TON from 1000 lb monarch game feeders...they loose some mentality when Stag, buff, elk, oryx, Roe, and others, not used to being in the same enviroment are grouped togeather...Ive seen it, as well as others have, Thellurider knows what I speak of. So if the Oryx ran across the road while you were driving, you shot someone elses animal (I dont even want to know if you got out of the car or not...)? Doesnt make a ton of sense with the info you provided, or maybe I mis read it...also, if you shot another guys animal, why the heck would he want to be in the pic with your gun and not his own which he used? That seems kinda strange. Or maybe I am mis reading what you wrote. So you finished it off with an AR, or he shot it with and AR???? if he shot it with an AR and you finished it, that kinda shows that the AR didnt do a good job.  IF you finshed it with an AR, hes holding a gun, you used to finish it with? WTF!!! This happens way to often on AR15. I tried to post a nice photo of a beautiful animal and you think it needs more of an explanation. Just enjoy (or don't) the damn picture. I did not mean that I think an AR is preferable in any way. Shots are not 20 yards, just visibility at times. By every species, I meant exotic animals only. Aoudad are not considered indiginous they are free roaming exotics like the Axis that have been here for a long time, and there are no roe deer in Texas except at a zoo. The pathetic animals you talk about are on a place where the carring capacity has been exceeded. Trying to address the points you mentioned; Yes I got out of the truck and trailed the animal (no blood) about 300 yards and shot him for the hunter who had gut shot it twice with a 7mm, who was greatful he would be able to retrieve the animal he was going to have to pay $3500 for. I am the one holding the gun. He wanted me to pose with it because he loved the gun. Yes, I am an authority on Texas hunting. My operation hosts over 3000 hunters per year, probably more that any other hunting operation in Texas if not the US. And have worked for some of the most well known ranches in the state including the one that started the exotic game business.   Yes, free ranging is what I meant, my mistake. I have see roe in Texas obvisouly NOT free ranging. Some guy had them on his ranch, all fenced in, with buff, a one horned oryx and a bunch of other elk, stag and sheep. It was a shame really. Well, since your outfit hosts so many per year, I would think you would understand why alot of other outfitters shutter when people show up into camp with guns not fit for the job. Whats the name of the outfit by the way, Id love to check it out! I as well as my buddy do ALOT of hunting, and not just in Tx, but all over the place...Hornady also sponsors us. I can provide you all the info on that if youd like. these 223 for deer threads pop up every fall, and never acomplish much beyond bickering. usually why I DONT post in them, but I was curious when I saw your pic. Yes it is a beautiful animal, but looks kind of funny knowing its background and all of a sudden theres a cactus behind it... So the hunter whos animal you shot wanted a pic of you with the gun and it?  Ok ill leave it alone, I cant laugh any more. For 3,500 bucks one can go to Africa and shoot the thing in ITS INDIGINIOUS enviro. (plus the cost of airfair )

Unfortunately the only place they can be hunted is here. The scimitar horned oryx is supposed to be extinct in the wild. They once inhabitated Chad, Egypt and Senegal. They do very well in Texas with our comparable climate and will be reintroduced to their native lands one day thanks to the people here and the money hunting brings. No thanks to HSUS, PETA ,Friends of Animals and the other PITA organizations that try so hard to stop all hunting. What species have they ever saved? NONE

Originaly posted by Hebrew_Battle_Rifle

"Just insert a loaded 30 rd mag and keep shooting until it dies..or until you need to reload...then shoot it until it dies. I don't see the problem.
You are right to disregard the excruciating pain that the animal will endure. It's agony is absolutely meaningless when compared to the joy that you will derive from killing something with your AR. That is all that matters. Killing something with your AR.?

Why am I being attacked here?  I have never hunted with an AR, and am only asking for opinions, you act like I have done it many times and have no respect for animals and that I AM going to do it.  Please..just polite opinions, I appreciate your input, but come on...don't attack me.  

Quoted: Originaly posted by Hebrew_Battle_Rifle "Just insert a loaded 30 rd mag and keep shooting until it dies..or until you need to reload...then shoot it until it dies. I don't see the problem. You are right to disregard the excruciating pain that the animal will endure. It's agony is absolutely meaningless when compared to the joy that you will derive from killing something with your AR. That is all that matters. Killing something with your AR.? Why am I being attacked here?  I have never hunted with an AR, and am only asking for opinions, you act like I have done it many times and have no respect for animals and that I AM going to do it.  Please..just polite opinions, I appreciate your input, but come on...don't attack me.

I wasn't attacking you or anyone else. I was making a point. Nothing more.

I remember when just for kicks, some of us wanted to see if a one ton truck could pull a semi flat bed trailer. The trailer was loaded, but as I remember, it was'nt loaded to maximum. At any rate, the one ton could pull the trailer, provided that the terrain was flat and paved. The truck pulled the trailer for a little way before the clutch started slipping. Because of the way we had it all rigged up, the driver had to let it cost to a stop rather than applying the brakes, which considering the slow speed, didn't take long.

The point being that even though the one ton COULD pull the trailer, it just barely could and was not capable of doing it efficiently or even safely. In order to pull the trailer efficiently and safely, the proper sized semi truck was needed.

Just because you CAN hunt deer sized game with a .223, it doesn't mean that you should. Too many things have to be just right in order to make a humane kill.

Quoted: There are many 20 yard shots where the arrow doesn't go all the way thru , normally due to bone, but not always, I would not assume an arrow would have enough energy to go thru at 80 yards, they lose a lot of speed out that far, but you are correct, IMO, that a well-placed broadhead kills as dead as any bullet.  So would even argue that it is more effective than a gun, because there is no blast to scare them into knowing something bad happened and make them run off, sometimes they just trot a little after being hit with an arrow, and don't go as far.

Yeah, I had to assume for a minute that we were talking solid hits to the right places. {Heart/Lung shots}

I've killed deer with a 70gr .243. I say go for it! I intend to hunt with my AR this year. There are alot of people around here that use bullet size like an extension of their penis. I know a guy that was looking to buy a .416 Rigby, in Virginia. The guy at the gun shop looked at him like he was retarded. I think I would agree. Don't let the "mine is bigger" attitude get to you.  

Quoted: Just insert a loaded 30 rd mag and keep shooting until it dies..or until you need to reload...then shoot it until it dies.  I don't see the problem. You are right to disregard the excruciating pain that the animal will endure. It's agony is absolutely meaningless when compared to the joy that you will derive from killing something with your AR. That is all that matters. Killing something with your AR.

For the one hundred thousandth fucking time... ..223 does more damage to flesh than .30 rounds! It's a better choice!
A shot that misses vitals with a .30 will do less damage than the same shot with .223. So why is it more humane? Its not.

Let me ask you this.  Why is it ok to shoot a deer that is in range and offers a broad side shot with a bow and arrow, but not a .223?  I JUST DON'T GET IT!!! This is the thing that pisses me off!  Avid bow hunters telling me and others that my .223 isn't "enough" to kill a deer.  Yet they will lob an arrow 50 yards at a buck that is trotting away from them. Can you please explain this to me?

If a 223 bullet had razor blades, and a big long stick attached to it then i wouldnt disagree with you..lol. you cannot be serious with that?? personaly i dont shoot at anything over 40yards with an arrow, but that just me.

if you want to deer hunt, buy you a deer rifle, don't deer hunt with a varmit rifle. no comparison between a 200lb. deer and a 200 pound man, it's the hide,dude. also, how many ragheads do you think would keep coming at you, much less staying alive, after being shot with a inch to a inch and a half razor sharp broadhead. you ever cut yourself with a razor? it just keeps bleeding. it's like beating your head up against the wall, sometimes you just can't get thru.

Quoted: Let me ask you this.  Why is it ok to shoot a deer that is in range and offers a broad side shot with a bow and arrow, but not a .223?  I JUST DON'T GET IT!!! This is the thing that pisses me off!  Avid bow hunters telling me and others that my .223 isn't "enough" to kill a deer.  Yet they will lob an arrow 50 yards at a buck that is trotting away from them. Can you please explain this to me? If a 223 bullet had razor blades, and a big long stick attached to it then i wouldnt disagree with you..lol. you cannot be serious with that?? personaly i dont shoot at anything over 40yards, but that just me.

.223 will create a larger wound inside a deer than an arrow will.

Quoted: if you want to deer hunt, buy you a deer rifle, don't deer hunt with a varmit rifle. no comparison between a 200lb. deer and a 200 pound man, it's the hide,dude. also, how many ragheads do you think would keep coming at you, much less staying alive, after being shot with a inch to a inch and a half razor sharp broadhead. you ever cut yourself with a razor? it just keeps bleeding. it's like beating your head up against the wall, sometimes you just can't get thru.

tell me about it.

for some reason the fact that .223 creates a larger wound inside a deer than an arrow or a .30 round seems to follow this suit.

Quoted: Quoted: Let me ask you this.  Why is it ok to shoot a deer that is in range and offers a broad side shot with a bow and arrow, but not a .223?  I JUST DON'T GET IT!!! This is the thing that pisses me off!  Avid bow hunters telling me and others that my .223 isn't "enough" to kill a deer.  Yet they will lob an arrow 50 yards at a buck that is trotting away from them. Can you please explain this to me? If a 223 bullet had razor blades, and a big long stick attached to it then i wouldnt disagree with you..lol. you cannot be serious with that?? personaly i dont shoot at anything over 40yards, but that just me. .223 will create a larger wound inside a deer than an arrow will.

i have taken whitetails with both bow and rifle.  I have seen more blood with a 100grain G5 Montec Broadhead than with my 30-06 or my 243(Thats a real kill shot, not a gut shot). so im gonna have to say bs on that one. no offense, not saying your stupid just dont agree with it. (i butcher my deer aswell, while the bullets have more of an impat zone the arrows for sure do more real damage inside. JMHO

Quoted:   What are some of your opinions about deer hunting with an AR-15 and .223 ammo.  I got a box of winchester .223, 64 grain, dual stage expansion that is rated for deer and black bear.  I have cleared the weapon and ammo for deer hunting by the utah department of wildlife, but will it really do the job ethicaly?  Thanks

If you plan on taking bear with a .223 you better take a beta mag with you and be good at making headshots.

Quoted: Quoted: Just insert a loaded 30 rd mag and keep shooting until it dies..or until you need to reload...then shoot it until it dies.  I don't see the problem. You are right to disregard the excruciating pain that the animal will endure. It's agony is absolutely meaningless when compared to the joy that you will derive from killing something with your AR. That is all that matters. Killing something with your AR. For the one hundred thousandth fucking time... ..223 does more damage to flesh than .30 rounds! It's a better choice! A shot that misses vitals with a .30 will do less damage than the same shot with .223. So why is it more humane? Its not.

Someone has read the ammo oracle or something too many times. THAT IS WITH FMJ bullets! Have you ever seen what a .30-06 150 grain silvertip does to flesh? I sure have. Can you say 6" exit hole and a lung turned to liquid? Expanding bullets have completely different wound patterns than FMJ/fragmenting bullets. A .223 soft point will not do ANYWHERE NEAR as much damage as a .308 caliber soft point. Not to mention the fact that a .30-06 SP can punch through bone, which a .223 can't do.

As far as using a .223 for deer, it is doable, but I will never do it beacause where I live there are rarely perfectly broadside shots to take. Shots are quick, and not always perfect, so I happen to like having a touch more room for error, which I get with a .30-06.

Quoted: Quoted: Just insert a loaded 30 rd mag and keep shooting until it dies..or until you need to reload...then shoot it until it dies.  I don't see the problem. You are right to disregard the excruciating pain that the animal will endure. It's agony is absolutely meaningless when compared to the joy that you will derive from killing something with your AR. That is all that matters. Killing something with your AR. For the one hundred thousandth fucking time... ..223 does more damage to flesh than .30 rounds! It's a better choice! A shot that misses vitals with a .30 will do less damage than the same shot with .223. So why is it more humane? Its not.

I hate that I'm going to argue about this with you because I actually agree with you partially.  

The problem with you statement is it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to general.  What's the 5.56 / .223's quality that makes it better?  Fragmentation.  A round that kills quick is a round that fragments a good amount and has sufficient penetration.  Most of the hunters on here and others will tell you not to hunt with a fragmenting round.  Well, I highly disagree.  However, the part you don't get is that a fragmenting .308 round will do way more damage than any fragmenting 5.56 / .223.  Thus the 155 amax and 150 nosler ballistic tip.  This will penetrate more than any 5.56 / .223 and it will fragment way more.  You are better served with these types of rounds.

Where it gets funny is that most hunters using 06 or .308 or any "deer" caliber that they deem use run of the mill bullets.  Soft points.  Well, those don't usually fragment.  They may, but it is unlikely.  They are designed to mushroom and go all the way through.  And then there's the "bonded" bullets.  Well, those are meant for larger game and the REALLY are not designed to fragment.  So, your chances of recovering a gutshot deer or poorly placed shot is waaaaaaaaaaay higher with a "fragmenting" bullet of some type.  What's good about the 5.56 / .223 is that many of them do.  However, some lack sufficient penetration.   But for what it's worth, many people on this sight alone have killed many deer with many different kinds of .223 bullets.  Some take a ballistic tip and stick with neck shots, which is usually an instant kill and some use soft points and BTHP's of heavier weight for a more traditional boiler room shot.  And the consensus is it works.  The problem is, our guys on here could post pictures after pictures after pictures after pictures of dead deer, shot with .223, and the naysayers could care less.  To them, it's just not possible.  Bigger is better.  Well not always.  Put a not so well placed shot with a bullet that doesn't expand overly much and guess what, watch him run and run and run.

My uncle and cousin have proven this theory to great degree.  They are fanatics that live up in the woods and shoot several deer each every year.  My uncle get his 06 handloaded with a 125 ballistic tip "varmint bullet" and god does that thing do a number every time.  I wish I had pictures, but the last deer he gave me, the entrance wound, yes I said entrance wound was the size of a baseball.  That is once you peeled the coat off.  It never exited but it cut a swath trough the vitals like grant took richmond and you could see on the other end where the fragmented bullet wanted to come out but was so fragmented did not exit.  It looked more like a shotgun pattern.  And the only meat ruined is the entrance wound.  Which in this case was the front left shoulder.  None of the hams or even the tenderloins were screwed up.  Now my cousin has been using a .243, but he uses the 80 grainer, instead of the 100.  Which is deemed a "varmint" bullet.  He has the same results, sufficient penetration, with violent fragmentation.

With a .223 you just gotta make sure you use one that penetrates enough and you can do body shots all you want.  I believe any of the recommended bullets in this forum for meeting the FBI 12" spec would do the trick.

Quoted: .223 will create a larger wound inside a deer than an arrow will.

Not in my experience.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just insert a loaded 30 rd mag and keep shooting until it dies..or until you need to reload...then shoot it until it dies.  I don't see the problem. You are right to disregard the excruciating pain that the animal will endure. It's agony is absolutely meaningless when compared to the joy that you will derive from killing something with your AR. That is all that matters. Killing something with your AR. For the one hundred thousandth fucking time... ..223 does more damage to flesh than .30 rounds! It's a better choice! A shot that misses vitals with a .30 will do less damage than the same shot with .223. So why is it more humane? Its not. Someone has read the ammo oracle or something too many times. THAT IS WITH FMJ bullets! Have you ever seen what a .30-06 150 grain silvertip does to flesh? I sure have. Can you say 6" exit hole and a lung turned to liquid? Expanding bullets have completely different wound patterns than FMJ/fragmenting bullets. A .223 soft point will not do ANYWHERE NEAR as much damage as a .308 caliber soft point. Not to mention the fact that a .30-06 SP can punch through bone, which a .223 can't do. As far as using a .223 for deer, it is doable, but I will never do it beacause where I live there are rarely perfectly broadside shots to take. Shots are quick, and not always perfect, so I happen to like having a touch more room for error, which I get with a .30-06.

I agree and disagree.  If you see from my last post that I agree thay your 150 grain silvertip, which I'm pretty sure is the nosler, will do way more damager.  Where I don't agree is where you say a .223 won't go through bone.  Are you just saying that or have you had that happen?  I suppose it depends on the bone and what bullet, but it sounds like a generalization with no experience to back it up.  This is the other problem.  99.999999999999999% of the naysayers, have never tried it.  Thus are basically talking out of their rear ends.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just insert a loaded 30 rd mag and keep shooting until it dies..or until you need to reload...then shoot it until it dies.  I don't see the problem. You are right to disregard the excruciating pain that the animal will endure. It's agony is absolutely meaningless when compared to the joy that you will derive from killing something with your AR. That is all that matters. Killing something with your AR. For the one hundred thousandth fucking time... ..223 does more damage to flesh than .30 rounds! It's a better choice! A shot that misses vitals with a .30 will do less damage than the same shot with .223. So why is it more humane? Its not. Someone has read the ammo oracle or something too many times. THAT IS WITH FMJ bullets! Have you ever seen what a .30-06 150 grain silvertip does to flesh? I sure have. Can you say 6" exit hole and a lung turned to liquid? Expanding bullets have completely different wound patterns than FMJ/fragmenting bullets. A .223 soft point will not do ANYWHERE NEAR as much damage as a .308 caliber soft point. Not to mention the fact that a .30-06 SP can punch through bone, which a .223 can't do.As far as using a .223 for deer, it is doable, but I will never do it beacause where I live there are rarely perfectly broadside shots to take. Shots are quick, and not always perfect, so I happen to like having a touch more room for error, which I get with a .30-06.

You must not have ever shot a deer with .223 to make this statement. It is completely false. I have had several shots that penetrated bone on whitetail deer over the years.

You also do not need perfect broadside shots. My last kill last year was a straight on shot that penetrated the sternum blowing out the trachea and liquefying the heart. This was using the Hornady 75 gr OTMBT at about 60 yards.

Bob

Quoted: Quoted: .223 will create a larger wound inside a deer than an arrow will. Not in my experience.

wouldn't an arrow create a wound only as wide as the arrow head is in diameter, maybe very slightly larger?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just insert a loaded 30 rd mag and keep shooting until it dies..or until you need to reload...then shoot it until it dies.  I don't see the problem. You are right to disregard the excruciating pain that the animal will endure. It's agony is absolutely meaningless when compared to the joy that you will derive from killing something with your AR. That is all that matters. Killing something with your AR. For the one hundred thousandth fucking time... ..223 does more damage to flesh than .30 rounds! It's a better choice! A shot that misses vitals with a .30 will do less damage than the same shot with .223. So why is it more humane? Its not. Someone has read the ammo oracle or something too many times. THAT IS WITH FMJ bullets! Have you ever seen what a .30-06 150 grain silvertip does to flesh? I sure have. Can you say 6" exit hole and a lung turned to liquid? Expanding bullets have completely different wound patterns than FMJ/fragmenting bullets. A .223 soft point will not do ANYWHERE NEAR as much damage as a .308 caliber soft point. Not to mention the fact that a .30-06 SP can punch through bone, which a .223 can't do. As far as using a .223 for deer, it is doable, but I will never do it beacause where I live there are rarely perfectly broadside shots to take. Shots are quick, and not always perfect, so I happen to like having a touch more room for error, which I get with a .30-06.

Point taken. But do those of you who have a problem with using .223 for deer have a problem with using .308 FMJ on deer?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: .223 will create a larger wound inside a deer than an arrow will. Not in my experience. wouldn't an arrow create a wound only as wide as the arrow head is in diameter, maybe very slightly larger?

...and at normal bow distance, with my 70lb bow, that wound would be somewhere in the 1.75" range for my broadheads, will be all the way through the deer.

No wound channel "neck", no bullet stopping in the animal at about 6"-9", nothing like that....

Simply a clean pass of 1.75" all the way through the deer, again, in my experience.

Also, proper hunting ammunition, doesn't explode violently like M193 does.  In fact, many places outlaw FMJ from use in hunting.  To include projectiles like OTM.

I wouldn't want to pick particles of lead and copper from the meat anyway.

have to use a 23 caliber rifle or larger here.... go figure

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just insert a loaded 30 rd mag and keep shooting until it dies..or until you need to reload...then shoot it until it dies.  I don't see the problem. You are right to disregard the excruciating pain that the animal will endure. It's agony is absolutely meaningless when compared to the joy that you will derive from killing something with your AR. That is all that matters. Killing something with your AR. For the one hundred thousandth fucking time... ..223 does more damage to flesh than .30 rounds! It's a better choice! A shot that misses vitals with a .30 will do less damage than the same shot with .223. So why is it more humane? Its not. Someone has read the ammo oracle or something too many times. THAT IS WITH FMJ bullets! Have you ever seen what a .30-06 150 grain silvertip does to flesh? I sure have. Can you say 6" exit hole and a lung turned to liquid? Expanding bullets have completely different wound patterns than FMJ/fragmenting bullets. A .223 soft point will not do ANYWHERE NEAR as much damage as a .308 caliber soft point. Not to mention the fact that a .30-06 SP can punch through bone, which a .223 can't do. As far as using a .223 for deer, it is doable, but I will never do it beacause where I live there are rarely perfectly broadside shots to take. Shots are quick, and not always perfect, so I happen to like having a touch more room for error, which I get with a .30-06. I agree and disagree.  If you see from my last post that I agree thay your 150 grain silvertip, which I'm pretty sure is the nosler, will do way more damager.  Where I don't agree is where you say a .223 won't go through bone.  Are you just saying that or have you had that happen?  I suppose it depends on the bone and what bullet, but it sounds like a generalization with no experience to back it up.  This is the other problem.  99.999999999999999% of the naysayers, have never tried it.  Thus are basically talking out of their rear ends.

Do you guys remember "My Cousin Vinny"?  The part when the District Attorney asks Joe Pesci to go hunting, and "Vinny" asks his girlfriend Lisa if his dress slacks are okay to hunt in. She responds something like this....

"Imagine you're a cute little dear in the forest. You spot a little stream. You bend down to take a little drink and BANG!...a bullet rips open the side of your head.  Then ask yourself....Do you give a F#$@ what kind of pants the hunter was wearing?"

Sounds like both will do the trick if used correctly. I think personal preference is the only real answer.

A deer is about the only animal I can think of that can be the same general weight and size as a full grown man (or much smaller) and is "weak" like a human (most animals are just much tougher than any human).  If we all feel confident in defending ourselves with the 5.56X45 then why are so many scared to hunt deer with them?  But I guess its not fun to have a fragmented bullet in your deer meat.  Are we assuming this .223 hunt would be with an expansion round?

height=8

Quoted: height=8 Quoted: height=8 Quoted: height=8 Let me ask you this.  Why is it ok to shoot a deer that is in range and offers a broad side shot with a bow and arrow, but not a .223?  I JUST DON'T GET IT!!! This is the thing that pisses me off!  Avid bow hunters telling me and others that my .223 isn't "enough" to kill a deer.  Yet they will lob an arrow 50 yards at a buck that is trotting away from them. Can you please explain this to me? If a 223 bullet had razor blades, and a big long stick attached to it then i wouldnt disagree with you..lol. you cannot be serious with that?? personaly i dont shoot at anything over 40yards, but that just me. .223 will create a larger wound inside a deer than an arrow will. i have taken whitetails with both bow and rifle.  I have seen more blood with a 100grain G5 Montec Broadhead than with my 30-06 or my 243(Thats a real kill shot, not a gut shot). so im gonna have to say bs on that one. no offense, not saying your stupid just dont agree with it. (i butcher my deer aswell, while the bullets have more of an impat zone the arrows for sure do more real damage inside. JMHO

You're seeing more blood with an arrow b/c the HEART IS STILL PUMPING AND THE DEER IS ALIVE LONGER AFTER THE SHOT!!!  The "shock" of a high velosity round has a stunning effect, can cause instantaneous death and hydrostatic shock to the surrounding tissue.  All of this can mean FAR less bleeding and visible damage from a high velosity round to the naked eye compaired to an arrow.  In accuality FAR more damage has been done by the 30-06 at a cellular to systemic level.

Why would you want to hunt deer with a .223 when there are so many better
suited bullets and cartridges available?

You asked about ethics, be ethical.  How many hunting magazines do you read
with a title of ".223, The Ideal Deer Cartridge"?

Come on, don't help the antis give us a bad name if you are worried about ethics.

If you didn't already know the answer, you wouldn't have asked this question.  Forget what
the Utah game department approves.  Here in Texas, any .22 centerfire is okay legally.
Being an ethical sportsman, however, you will never find me using one to deer hunt with.

Let your conscience make your decision.  You have to live with yourself and your choices, not 30 or so armchair quarterbacks.

My brother in law goes deer hunting every year with a .222, He fills his tag every year no problem.

Can you hunt with .223?  If it's legal.
Can you kill a deer with .223?  Most certainly.
Should you hunt with .223?  Not IMO.

Quoted: Quoted: .223 will create a larger wound inside a deer than an arrow will. Not in my experience.

+1

I dont know what arrow your using 20iner....

I have seen devastating damage from a 223 round in a deer. I have never seen an arrow that will make jelly out of the heart and the top 1/2 of both lungs. The circumference of damage is the size of a grape fruit. I have never seen an arrow the diameter of a grape fruit.


One other point, I always shoot the deer in the heart lung area with the exception of the occasional neck shot when I have to take it. The bullet enters through the ribs and liquefies the heart and/or lungs and then stops. In 4 years of hunting deer with a 223 I have never found a bullet fragment in my deer meat. The only parts coming in contact with the bullet is a rib and some internal organs. Some of you are acting like the bullet fragments in the far reaches of the deer.  

Either some you have a habit of shooting your deer in the rear haunches or the tenderloins or some other major meat area or are posting out of a position of ignorance. So, which is it, ignorance or bad shooting?

Bob

Quoted: I have seen devastating damage from a 223 round in a deer. I have never seen an arrow that will make jelly out of the heart and the top 1/2 of both lungs. The circumference of damage is the size of a grape fruit. I have never seen an arrow the diameter of a grape fruit.

This is really a conversation about the limitations of the .223 on deer.  At least from my perspective.  We al know that .223 will KILL a deer at 30yds.  We all know that it will make an impressive wound.  I am SPECIFICALLY trying to illustrate that it DOES have limitations. Since someone asked how we could consider ARROWS adequate, but not a .223, I gave a very brief encapsulation of what an arrow shot in the heart/lung area usually does when traversing the deer.

One other point, I always shoot the deer in the heart lung area with the exception of the occasional neck shot when I have to take it. The bullet enters through the ribs and liquefies the heart and/or lungs and then stops.

..Exactly.  The bullet STOPS in the deer.  Stops inside a chest cavity likely no more than 12" wide.  By comparison, every one of my hunting buddies using bows, that range from 55lbs to 75lbs, have their arrows traverse the entire body cavity, cutting a swath no less than 1.5" from one side to the other.  Each arrow has passed the entire deer.  A permanent wound channel all the way through.  No wound cavity "neck", no worries about lack of expansion or fragmentation, especially if that shot with the .223 were taken at the outside edge of it's frag or expansion range.

 

In 4 years of hunting deer with a 223 I have never found a bullet fragment in my deer meat. The only parts coming in contact with the bullet is a rib and some internal organs. Some of you are acting like the bullet fragments in the far reaches of the deer.

Lucky you, no seriously -- you're lucky apparently.  I suppose you have never shot a deer that was quartering TOWARDS you?? We've seen many in our deer camp.  Fragments end up in the back strap, or lodged in the opposite front leg.  This is of course with a more powerful cartridge, but the effect is possible with 5.56 level rounds.  

Either some you have a habit of shooting your deer in the rear haunches or the tenderloins or some other major meat area or are posting out of a position of ignorance. So, which is it, ignorance or bad shooting?

Hang up the strawman argument you've presented, Bob.  Fact is, bullets shot from the front tend to end up in "good parts" of the deer.  Sometimes a frontal shot is the only shot you have, and when you harvest the deer later, there is some picking to be done. Then again, I am talking about cartridges that do often exit the deer, not go 5"-8" and stop inside.

Let me RECAP for you:

The .223 will kill a deer.
.223 will make an "impressive" wound if inside it's frag range.
.223 has a very real limitation in terms of range.
.223 is NOT LEGAL in many locations due to it's performance on the game animals of the area.
FMJ/OTM is NOT LEGAL in many locations due to it's performance characteristics.

Quoted: Quoted: I have seen devastating damage from a 223 round in a deer. I have never seen an arrow that will make jelly out of the heart and the top 1/2 of both lungs. The circumference of damage is the size of a grape fruit. I have never seen an arrow the diameter of a grape fruit. This is really a conversation about the limitations of the .223 on deer.  At least from my perspective.  We al know that .223 will KILL a deer at 30yds.  We all know that it will make an impressive wound.  I am SPECIFICALLY trying to illustrate that it DOES have limitations. Since someone asked how we could consider ARROWS adequate, but not a .223, I gave a very brief encapsulation of what an arrow shot in the heart/lung area usually does when traversing the deer. One other point, I always shoot the deer in the heart lung area with the exception of the occasional neck shot when I have to take it. The bullet enters through the ribs and liquefies the heart and/or lungs and then stops. ..Exactly.  The bullet STOPS in the deer.  Stops inside a chest cavity likely no more than 12" wide.  By comparison, every one of my hunting buddies using bows, that range from 55lbs to 75lbs, have their arrows traverse the entire body cavity, cutting a swath no less than 1.5" from one side to the other.  Each arrow has passed the entire deer.  A permanent wound channel all the way through.  No wound cavity "neck", no worries about lack of expansion or fragmentation, especially if that shot with the .223 were taken at the outside edge of it's frag or expansion range.   In 4 years of hunting deer with a 223 I have never found a bullet fragment in my deer meat. The only parts coming in contact with the bullet is a rib and some internal organs. Some of you are acting like the bullet fragments in the far reaches of the deer. Lucky you, no seriously -- you're lucky apparently.  I suppose you have never shot a deer that was quartering TOWARDS you?? We've seen many in our deer camp.  Fragments end up in the back strap, or lodged in the opposite front leg.  This is of course with a more powerful cartridge, but the effect is possible with 5.56 level rounds.   Either some you have a habit of shooting your deer in the rear haunches or the tenderloins or some other major meat area or are posting out of a position of ignorance. So, which is it, ignorance or bad shooting? Hang up the strawman argument you've presented, Bob.  Fact is, bullets shot from the front tend to end up in "good parts" of the deer.  Sometimes a frontal shot is the only shot you have, and when you harvest the deer later, there is some picking to be done. Then again, I am talking about cartridges that do often exit the deer, not go 5"-8" and stop inside. Let me RECAP for you: The .223 will kill a deer. .223 will make an "impressive" wound if inside it's frag range. .223 has a very real limitation in terms of range. .223 is NOT LEGAL in many locations due to it's performance on the game animals of the area. FMJ/OTM is NOT LEGAL in many locations due to it's performance characteristics.

Shivan,

I never stated that the 223 has no limitations.
It is obvious you are emotionally involved in the .223 deer hunting argument. My statements were not aimed at anyone in particular, just stating facts.

I have killed MANY deer using my AR with excellent results. Am I an expert deer hunter? No way. Am I capable of choosing shots that the AR can handle? You can bet your ass on it. I never take marginal shots with my AR and would never advise anyone else to do so. Deer hunting in my life is all about making sure that I know where the deer will be and that I will be able to make an effective shot. If they are within 100 yards they are mine. I have never implied or stated anything else.

Frontal shots with an AR cause catastrophic damage to internal organs as noted in my  previous post. When the heart and lungs are jelly, you do not need the through and through wound of an arrow.

It almost sounds like you are using too much gun if the more powerful round is penetrating to the point of ruining meat from a frontal shot. Oh wait! That was only supposed to happen with the 223 round that sprays lead and copper through out the body?!? So which is it?  Does the larger more powerful round ruin meat or does the light penetrating, yet effective, 223 round ruin meat?

You hunt deer with what you want, I will hunt deer with what I want. If you ever make your way to Kentucky during deer season, I'll take you out on our farm and let you hunt with your legal weapon of choice.

Have fun this fall. I hope you tag out. I know I will.

Bob

Quoted: It is obvious you are emotionally involved in the .223 deer hunting argument.

Far from it, I'm tired of hearing the "can't fail" bullshit on this board in regards to hunting whitetail with .223.  Followed by comments that state that the bullet underpenetrates, and relies solely on violent fragmentation for it's PRIMARY wounding mechanism.

Frontal shots with an AR cause catastrophic damage to internal organs as noted in my  previous post. When the heart and lungs are jelly, you do not need the through and through wound of an arrow.

...I'm glad to see you've missed the point entirely.  Context of even discussing arrows is that an arrow at 80-100yds will likely STILL pass all the way through a deer, whereas a .223 at the outside range of its capability will likely not do so well.  If you don't have the context right, please don't use my comparisons.  Do you bow hunt?

It almost sounds like you are using too much gun if the more powerful round is penetrating to the point of ruining meat from a frontal shot. Oh wait! That was only supposed to happen with the 223 round that sprays lead and copper through out the body?!? So which is it?  Does the larger more powerful round ruin meat or does the light penetrating, yet effective, 223 round ruin meat?

Again, another strawman.  Having used many projectiles, some things are trial and error.  No?  I don't use ballistic tip .308 any longer for this very reason.  I don't like exploding bullets in deer meat.  I like to use controlled expansion type projectiles now.  For this VERY reason.  The typical .223/5.56 relies on violent fragmentation.  I personally believe this is a bad thing.

I hope you tag out. I know I will.

I'm extremely impressed.  I will take my 1 or 2 deer, and the antelope I have a tag for in Wyoming, and that will about it.  I might even buy some new camo this year for the Wyoming trip.  Hell, I may even take a deer during Archery season this year.  

I am SOOOOOOOO cool.  I already knew that, but I thought I would share with you.

Quoted: Quoted: It is obvious you are emotionally involved in the .223 deer hunting argument. Far from it, I'm tired of hearing the "can't fail" bullshit on this board in regards to hunting whitetail with .223.  Followed by comments that state that the bullet underpenetrates, and relies solely on violent fragmentation for it's PRIMARY wounding mechanism. Frontal shots with an AR cause catastrophic damage to internal organs as noted in my  previous post. When the heart and lungs are jelly, you do not need the through and through wound of an arrow. ...I'm glad to see you've missed the point entirely.  Context of even discussing arrows is that an arrow at 80-100yds will likely STILL pass all the way through a deer, whereas a .223 at the outside range of its capability will likely not do so well.  If you don't have the context right, please don't use my comparisons. It almost sounds like you are using too much gun if the more powerful round is penetrating to the point of ruining meat from a frontal shot. Oh wait! That was only supposed to happen with the 223 round that sprays lead and copper through out the body?!? So which is it?  Does the larger more powerful round ruin meat or does the light penetrating, yet effective, 223 round ruin meat? Again, another strawman.  Having used many projectiles, some things are trial and error.  No?  I don't use ballistic tip .308 any longer for this very reason.  I don't like exploding bullets in deer meat.  I like to use controlled expansion type projectiles now.  For this VERY reason.  The typical .223/5.56 relies on violent fragmentation.  I personally believe this is a bad thing. I hope you tag out. I know I will. I'm extremely impressed.  I will take my 1 or 2 deer, and the antelope I have a tag for in Wyoming, and that will about it.  I might even buy some new camo this year for the Wyoming trip.  Hell, I may even take a deer during Archery season this year.   I am SOOOOOOOO cool.  I already knew that, but I thought I would share with you.

Shivan,
I refuse to engage in dick wagging with you no matter how much you appear to like it.

We can only take 4 deer in our area in a 22 day season. With only one farm to hunt on that I know like the back of my hand, I am sure I will tag out.  You seem to have read much more into that than I meant.  I guess I struck a nerve or something. Sorry about that.

I am here to relate first hand personal experience. You just seem to want to argue. How many deer have you taken in your 223 vs. "any other caliber" research to back up your claims?

Bob