Bad AR-15 KABOOM (with CAVARMS lower) - ouch - pics at link & at bottom of page 1 - Page 3

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bad AR-15 KABOOM (with CAVARMS lower) - ouch - pics at link & at bottom of page 1 (Page 3 of 4)

Posted: 4/13/2011 7:56:47 AM EDT

[#1]

that is a lesson learned, he is lucky it hit him more financially than physically.

Posted: 4/13/2011 8:02:13 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

See that gold patina on the bolt and barrel extension? That was the brass case, eroded/vaporized by the 55,000 PSI or so chamber pressure. Actually, only 20,000 PSI is necessary to do that.

I'm going to place blame on a bullet lodged in the bore.

This first pic I said "Ouch" and did not want to proceed afterwards.... Jee wiz.

I blame the underpants gnomes

..... stuck in the bore

Posted: 4/13/2011 8:52:32 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
I was standing 10 feet behing him loading mags. The shot was no different than any other shots. I only looked up because the RO was yelling for assistance.

Parts list.
Cav-arms mk2 lower in tan + lower parts kit.
Custom trigger pins.
Compass lake 18" govt profile douglas premium airguaged stainless steel barrel with matched bolt.
Ameetec cam pin, firing pin, firing pin retainer pin, slick side upper receiver.
Charging handle
USGI 30rd aluminum magazine with Magpul follower, and Magpul magpul in OD green.
Miculek brake
YHM low profile gas block, gas tube
Clark custom forearm, carbon fiber lightweight tube
Young mfg bolt carrier.
Timney trigger

Parts destroyed:
upper, lower receivers.
BCG: total loss
Forearm
barrel, gas tube, gas block, muzzle brake,
LPK: mag release, bolt release, custom trigger pins, take down pins.
charging handle is bent.
USGI mag with magpul follower and ODgreen magpul.

Parts salvaged:
sling, bipod, buffer, buffer spring, selector(safety), timney trigger(maybe I have not tested it yet), ACOG.

The target showed 4 hits, the 4th rd KABOOM'D the rifle. There were 26pcs of ammo on the deck after the rifle exploded. A piece of the exploded cartridge is still in the chamber of the barrel. The barrel extension split into 3 major pieces with smaller pieces cutting the left inside forearm.

This rifle had just over 3k rds fired. It had been cleaned the evening before, including a full chamber and bore scrubing. He had already fired one stage that day(long range) with no issues at all.

Just curious, but where did he get the idea or the load data for a binary pistal/rifle powder charge?

I knew a guy that killed himself fooling around with homegrown binary powder charges. He was shooting a bolt gun of some type and the rifle KB's and blew the firing pin or a piece of the bolt into his brain. His daughter found him leaning up against a tree but he died on the way to the hospital. Very sad and just not necessary.

Posted: 4/13/2011 9:29:52 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
I long ago adopted the rule that I don't have pistol and rifle powder out on the bench at the same time, or more than one can of powder in use at any time, regardless of type. One powder gets put away completely before another comes out of the powder storage area. I guess stuff like this is why that rule was invented.

That's the way I roll. One type of power and one type of primer out at at time.

Posted: 4/13/2011 10:21:00 AM EDT

[#5]

How much friggen powder did he load. CHRIST!!

Posted: 4/13/2011 10:35:12 AM EDT

[#6]

YOWCH. I have a feeling the "stretchiness" of the Cav arms lower saved him more personal damage. Aluminum alloys, including the one used for lowers is known to be pretty brittle compaired to comparable polymers and composit [poly/metal mix] structures. Basically, it ballooned long enough for more of the blast to go away from him. Hes fortunate though...that upper fragged pretty bad. I'd love to see the actual damage done to the shooter as it would be a good way to figure out an optimal "safety gear" configuration. Not saying one would wear all the gear, but its like when bombers would come back during WW2. They would look at the parts that didn't get shot up and armor those because obviously the planes that had those parts shot up didn't come back.

I made the mistake of not wearing the proper safety gear riding my Buell two weeks ago, and am still paying for it [short sleeves+gravel rode = some new scars on my arms to remind me]. Knowing the user damage might help us figure out better ways to protect ones self from kabooms [besides proper loading practices]

Posted: 4/13/2011 10:52:27 AM EDT

[#7]

Thats pretty bad.

Posted: 4/13/2011 3:40:46 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
glad to see the acog survived

+1

Posted: 4/13/2011 4:24:13 PM EDT

[#9]

damn!

Posted: 4/13/2011 5:09:53 PM EDT

[#10]

This is in the Ar Discussions forum....Pistol powder mixed in the rifle powder...

Posted: 4/13/2011 5:42:02 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
This is in the Ar Discussions forum....Pistol powder mixed in the rifle powder...

Sorry for boring you with the mundane details of a blown up rifle. I'm sure there are plenty of "which Magpul color brings out the color of my eyes" threads here that are more your speed.

Posted: 4/13/2011 6:01:25 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Who DID reload it? I think we're assuming it was the rifle owner, but your post makes me think it was someone else.

The most perceptive guy in this thread is the guy with one post. ;)

Posted: 4/14/2011 7:11:58 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

See that gold patina on the bolt and barrel extension? That was the brass case, eroded/vaporized by the 55,000 PSI or so chamber pressure. Actually, only 20,000 PSI is necessary to do that.

I'm going to place blame on a bullet lodged in the bore.

THIS

The barrel was blocked.

i read that he reloaded with the wrong powder, W219 was in his powder dispenser and he failed to check.

Posted: 4/14/2011 5:53:00 PM EDT

[#14]

was it the rifle owner that did the reloading?

Posted: 4/14/2011 8:10:29 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
was it the rifle owner that did the reloading?

nope. I'm pretty sure it was ammo he had purchased.

That shooter's gun was louder than hell with the muzzle brake he was running, but that shot WAS louder than normal. I was 30-40 feet behind the shooter and looked up immediately when I heard the shot. I saw him drop the two halves of a gun he was now holding (still attached by the sling)....I think I was the first spectator (besides the RO) to get to him... I immediately recognized what had happened having experienced a much lesser KB a few months prior.

he was NOT looking too happy!!!

Posted: 4/14/2011 8:29:08 PM EDT

[#16]

the whole front accidentally

Posted: 4/14/2011 8:44:37 PM EDT

[#17]

Courting a Darwin award.

Posted: 4/15/2011 7:06:19 AM EDT

[#18]

I'm glad the shooter is okay. But I do get a chuckle out of all those high-dollar parts on a CavArms lower.

Posted: 4/15/2011 9:59:31 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
was it the rifle owner that did the reloading?

nope. I'm pretty sure it was ammo he had purchased.

That shooter's gun was louder than hell with the muzzle brake he was running, but that shot WAS louder than normal. I was 30-40 feet behind the shooter and looked up immediately when I heard the shot. I saw him drop the two halves of a gun he was now holding (still attached by the sling)....I think I was the first spectator (besides the RO) to get to him... I immediately recognized what had happened having experienced a much lesser KB a few months prior.

he was NOT looking too happy!!!

There's a lesson here

Posted: 4/15/2011 10:39:41 AM EDT

[#20]

i now know why no-one wants to sell their reloads, AND i also know now NOT TO BUY RELOADS FROM ANYONE....PERIOD!!

Posted: 4/15/2011 11:37:44 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

i now know why no-one wants to sell their reloads, AND i also know now NOT TO BUY RELOADS FROM ANYONE....PERIOD!!

Not even Blackhills?

Posted: 4/15/2011 11:59:35 AM EDT

[#22]

Is he dumb or just plain stupid?

Posted: 4/15/2011 1:36:44 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Is he dumb or just plain stupid?

Is 5 pages of informative reading just too much for you to absorb before resorting to name calling? This was no fault of the shooter.

I didn't want to be the first person to share this, but now that it is out......these were factory reloads.

Posted: 4/15/2011 1:37:52 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
And that is why you need to know what you are doing when reloading

I agree, but I'll add that reloading isn't really that difficult or dangerous. The hardest part is PAYING ATTENTION. 25 grains of Bullseye in a .223 case would result in a pretty lousy day. If you follow published loads, you'll be fine.

But then, some people can't even make blue box macaroni and cheese correctly.

You are right reloading is made dangerous by the PERSON reloading. That is why I always say that reloads are only as good as the person making them.

Posted: 4/16/2011 12:03:55 PM EDT

[#25]

I'll step in also on this thread for a few reasons. I know the shooter. I know and have shot the rifle. I also inspected the rifle within a couple hours of it happening. I will not say where the ammo came from. I was asked not to.

The shooter DID NOT reload this ammo himself. It came from a company that sells reloaded ammo....so it is Commercially reloaded ammo. It was pistol powder. They found a few others with pistol powder in with when he took the ammo back to them. I do not know how the mix u happened, whether it was someone failing to clean the machine out or grabbed the wrong powder container, I do not know.

Posted: 4/16/2011 12:43:58 PM EDT

[#26]

Page 6 ownage.

Posted: 4/16/2011 1:09:32 PM EDT

[#27]

Has anyone informed the company? If they found multiple rounds like this, there needs to be a recall.

Posted: 4/16/2011 1:15:42 PM EDT

[#28]

Good he is ok.

Posted: 4/16/2011 1:37:01 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Has anyone informed the company? If they found multiple rounds like this, there needs to be a recall.

The company knows.
It's the public that needs to know.

Posted: 4/16/2011 4:45:47 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Has anyone informed the company? If they found multiple rounds like this, there needs to be a recall.

The company knows.
It's the public that needs to know.

No one is going to give that information out. I didn't even want to spill the beans about these being factory reloads.. The company made good on the rifle and isolated the batch. I've been sitting on these pics for 4 months waiting for the dust to settle. Order has been restored.

Posted: 4/16/2011 6:03:33 PM EDT

[#31]

WOW that was pretty slimy not to put the word out as far I am concerned.

I will reload my own thank you.

Posted: 4/16/2011 6:38:02 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Is he dumb or just plain stupid?

Is 5 pages of informative reading just too much for you to absorb before resorting to name calling? This was no fault of the shooter.

I didn't want to be the first person to share this, but now that it is out......these were factory reloads.

Well, now that the info is out, the company should be putting something out in writing on the net or wherever this particular ammo was sold, that it might be suspect to questionable powder loads. 5 pages is not too much...why didn't you put that info out in the beginning? The way I read it, it lead me to believe that the individual reloaded his own ammo, but on the other hand you could not be 100% sure. Would have saved a bunch of posts here probably. Another reason to never buy reloaded ammo from anybody, regardless of reputation or standing. Hell, I don't let anybody shoot ammo that I reload unless it is in my gun. If something happens, I have only myself to blame and my gun to fix or replace. Not trying to be a smartass, but after about 35 yrs of reloading I have seen just about everything...trust me. Even factory ammo can have bad loads and blow up on somebody, but I would never buy reloaded ammo from anybody, anywhere. Just my opinion on the matter.

Posted: 4/16/2011 7:08:37 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Is he dumb or just plain stupid?

Is 5 pages of informative reading just too much for you to absorb before resorting to name calling? This was no fault of the shooter.

I didn't want to be the first person to share this, but now that it is out......these were factory reloads.

Well, now that the info is out, the company should be putting something out in writing on the net or wherever this particular ammo was sold, that it might be suspect to questionable powder loads. 5 pages is not too much...why didn't you put that info out in the beginning? The way I read it, it lead me to believe that the individual reloaded his own ammo, but on the other hand you could not be 100% sure. Would have saved a bunch of posts here probably. Another reason to never buy reloaded ammo from anybody, regardless of reputation or standing. Hell, I don't let anybody shoot ammo that I reload unless it is in my gun. If something happens, I have only myself to blame and my gun to fix or replace. Not trying to be a smartass, but after about 35 yrs of reloading I have seen just about everything...trust me. Even factory ammo can have bad loads and blow up on somebody, but I would never buy reloaded ammo from anybody, anywhere. Just my opinion on the matter.

Let's keep in mind that I'm not the original poster of this thread on arfcom. I originally posted this on a local shooting board, where a good number of people on the board know us personally and know what happened.

Obviously there are moving parts to this story with two other parties involved. After sitting on these pics for 4 months, I asked if I coulld post the pics. I was asked not to disclose the name of the manufacturer by both sides. With that in mind, it wasn't in anyone's interest to disclose that these were factory reloads, because guess what the next question after that is? "Who made them?". I never had any intention of putting that they were factory loads out there, but since someone else posted it, I decided to confirm, mainly because I felt bad for the shooter taking so much heat and this got far more attention than I originally intended.

Lol@ the company putting something out in writing as if they owe anyone other than the original shooter anything. There are no exisiting safety risks. The lot has been destroyed. Shooter got a "settlement". The end.

Posted: 4/16/2011 7:36:08 PM EDT

[#34]

Holy shit, that is serious. Glad the shooter is okay.

Posted: 4/16/2011 8:25:22 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Is he dumb or just plain stupid?

Is 5 pages of informative reading just too much for you to absorb before resorting to name calling? This was no fault of the shooter.

I didn't want to be the first person to share this, but now that it is out......these were factory reloads.

Well, now that the info is out, the company should be putting something out in writing on the net or wherever this particular ammo was sold, that it might be suspect to questionable powder loads. 5 pages is not too much...why didn't you put that info out in the beginning? The way I read it, it lead me to believe that the individual reloaded his own ammo, but on the other hand you could not be 100% sure. Would have saved a bunch of posts here probably. Another reason to never buy reloaded ammo from anybody, regardless of reputation or standing. Hell, I don't let anybody shoot ammo that I reload unless it is in my gun. If something happens, I have only myself to blame and my gun to fix or replace. Not trying to be a smartass, but after about 35 yrs of reloading I have seen just about everything...trust me. Even factory ammo can have bad loads and blow up on somebody, but I would never buy reloaded ammo from anybody, anywhere. Just my opinion on the matter.

Let's keep in mind that I'm not the original poster of this thread on arfcom. I originally posted this on a local shooting board, where a good number of people on the board know us personally and know what happened.

Obviously there are moving parts to this story with two other parties involved. After sitting on these pics for 4 months, I asked if I coulld post the pics. I was asked not to disclose the name of the manufacturer by both sides. With that in mind, it wasn't in anyone's interest to disclose that these were factory reloads, because guess what the next question after that is? "Who made them?". I never had any intention of putting that they were factory loads out there, but since someone else posted it, I decided to confirm, mainly because I felt bad for the shooter taking so much heat and this got far more attention than I originally intended.

Lol@ the company putting something out in writing as if they owe anyone other than the original shooter anything. There are no exisiting safety risks. The lot has been destroyed. Shooter got a "settlement". The end.

yeah well if they slip up this bad once it can happen again and id like to make sure i never....ever...buy from these guys

Posted: 4/17/2011 4:51:38 AM EDT

[#36]

There was a guy hired in at Barrett when I worked there that was brought in specifically to help develop the 6.8 round. Supposedly he was some master reloader and developer.
Saw him one day mixing powders to make a duplex load and load some 6.8 ammo. There was some "hotly debated discussions" about this a few times and I was assured it was safe.

He later blew up a 6.8 rifle on the Barrett range. I felt nothing for him. And I became the bad guy because of it.
He still never learned his lesson and was doing it again after I was let go.

Pete was such a dumbass.

Duplex loads, if intentional are the loaders own fault and I don't feel sorry for what they reap because of their stupidity.

If accidental, the loader learned one hell of a lesson, let's hope he retains that lesson.

ETA: I posted the above after reading the first 3 pages. After reading the last page or so, it is much clearer what happened.

I geuss someones operation got a new QC check in the manufacturing process.

Posted: 4/17/2011 4:59:15 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Has anyone informed the company? If they found multiple rounds like this, there needs to be a recall.

The company knows.

It's the public that needs to know.

No one is going to give that information out. I didn't even want to spill the beans about these being factory reloads.. The company made good on the rifle and isolated the batch. I've been sitting on these pics for 4 months waiting for the dust to settle. Order has been restored.

Not unless and until all ammo from that proven-dangerous lot have been quarantined. Has it?

Posted: 4/17/2011 6:25:09 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Not unless and until all ammo from that proven-dangerous lot have been quarantined. Has it?

Yes.

Quoted:
Miwall? Black Hills?

And just so these two companies don't get pissed off or lose business, I will say "no" and "no". Please no more guessing attempts. No need to wrongly associate an unsuspecting company with this.

Posted: 4/17/2011 6:36:52 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
There was a guy hired in at Barrett when I worked there that was brought in specifically to help develop the 6.8 round. Supposedly he was some master reloader and developer.
Saw him one day mixing powders to make a duplex load and load some 6.8 ammo. There was some "hotly debated discussions" about this a few times and I was assured it was safe.

He later blew up a 6.8 rifle on the Barrett range. I felt nothing for him. And I became the bad guy because of it.
He still never learned his lesson and was doing it again after I was let go.

Pete was such a dumbass.

Duplex loads, if intentional are the loaders own fault and I don't feel sorry for what they reap because of their stupidity.

If accidental, the loader learned one hell of a lesson, let's hope he retains that lesson.

ETA: I posted the above after reading the first 3 pages. After reading the last page or so, it is much clearer what happened.

I geuss someones operation got a new QC check in the manufacturing process.

I thought SOCOM developed the 6.8?

Posted: 4/17/2011 6:47:17 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
There was a guy hired in at Barrett when I worked there that was brought in specifically to help develop the 6.8 round. Supposedly he was some master reloader and developer.
Saw him one day mixing powders to make a duplex load and load some 6.8 ammo. There was some "hotly debated discussions" about this a few times and I was assured it was safe.

He later blew up a 6.8 rifle on the Barrett range. I felt nothing for him. And I became the bad guy because of it.
He still never learned his lesson and was doing it again after I was let go.

Pete was such a dumbass.

Duplex loads, if intentional are the loaders own fault and I don't feel sorry for what they reap because of their stupidity.

If accidental, the loader learned one hell of a lesson, let's hope he retains that lesson.

ETA: I posted the above after reading the first 3 pages. After reading the last page or so, it is much clearer what happened.

I geuss someones operation got a new QC check in the manufacturing process.

I thought SOCOM developed the 6.8?

Yes they did. It was somewhat passed onto SF up at Ft. Campbell for further testing and eval. They came to Barrett to manufacture uppers and develop ammo in conjunction with Remington. We did lots of experimenting with twist rates and bullet weights to find what worked best together.
There wasn't any SAAMI specs for the cartridge yet, so it was all fly by the seat of our pants, but duplex ( I thought) wouldn't be touched on.
When Pete started messing with it, "It's what we did at CorBon", I knew someone was going to get hurt. Luckily it was only him.

Posted: 4/17/2011 9:15:20 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not unless and until all ammo from that proven-dangerous lot have been quarantined. Has it?

Yes.

Quoted:
Miwall? Black Hills?

And just so these two companies don't get pissed off or lose business, I will say "no" and "no". Please no more guessing attempts. No need to wrongly associate an unsuspecting company with this.

So how exactly was an entire questionable lot destroyed if the manufacturer has and continues to remain anonymous? There must have been some sort of public recall, correct?

Posted: 4/17/2011 10:30:39 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
There was a guy hired in at Barrett when I worked there that was brought in specifically to help develop the 6.8 round. Supposedly he was some master reloader and developer.
Saw him one day mixing powders to make a duplex load and load some 6.8 ammo. There was some "hotly debated discussions" about this a few times and I was assured it was safe.

He later blew up a 6.8 rifle on the Barrett range. I felt nothing for him. And I became the bad guy because of it.
He still never learned his lesson and was doing it again after I was let go.

Pete was such a dumbass.

Duplex loads, if intentional are the loaders own fault and I don't feel sorry for what they reap because of their stupidity.

If accidental, the loader learned one hell of a lesson, let's hope he retains that lesson.

ETA: I posted the above after reading the first 3 pages. After reading the last page or so, it is much clearer what happened.

I geuss someones operation got a new QC check in the manufacturing process.

I thought SOCOM developed the 6.8?

Yes they did. It was somewhat passed onto SF up at Ft. Campbell for further testing and eval. They came to Barrett to manufacture uppers and develop ammo in conjunction with Remington. We did lots of experimenting with twist rates and bullet weights to find what worked best together.
There wasn't any SAAMI specs for the cartridge yet, so it was all fly by the seat of our pants, but duplex ( I thought) wouldn't be touched on.
When Pete started messing with it, "It's what we did at CorBon", I knew someone was going to get hurt. Luckily it was only him.

10-4

Posted: 4/17/2011 11:00:23 AM EDT

[#43]

That was one bad day!!

Posted: 4/17/2011 11:54:47 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not unless and until all ammo from that proven-dangerous lot have been quarantined. Has it?

Yes.

Quoted:
Miwall? Black Hills?

And just so these two companies don't get pissed off or lose business, I will say "no" and "no". Please no more guessing attempts. No need to wrongly associate an unsuspecting company with this.

So how exactly was an entire questionable lot destroyed if the manufacturer has and continues to remain anonymous? There must have been some sort of public recall, correct?

Perhaps not much of the batch was sold and they were able to keep it quiet.

I'd like to know who though.

I wonder if the extractor is still in orbit. Holy mother of God was that some amazing destruction!

Posted: 4/17/2011 1:09:18 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

So how exactly was an entire questionable lot destroyed if the manufacturer has and continues to remain anonymous? There must have been some sort of public recall, correct?

This.

Selling dangerously loaded ammo isn't something that needs to be kept quiet.

Posted: 4/17/2011 2:09:17 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Perhaps not much of the batch was sold

Correct.

Posted: 4/17/2011 3:28:44 PM EDT

[#47]

Ouch.

Posted: 4/17/2011 6:11:37 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Lol@ the company putting something out in writing as if they owe anyone other than the original shooter anything. There are no exisiting safety risks. The lot has been destroyed. Shooter got a "settlement". The end.

I see a series of bad decisions here.

1. You agree to keep the incident quiet for a while
2. You agree to keep the name of the reloading company quiet.
3. 4 months after the fact, you decide to publish pictures of the incident while withholding timeline and other pertinent information.
4. You continue to fail to disclose information that the shooting community deserves to know
5. You expect the shooting community to believe you that all the faulty reloads are out of circulation.

Your buddy was lucky.

Posted: 4/17/2011 6:13:48 PM EDT

[#49]

Fucking hell!

Not good.

Posted: 4/17/2011 6:14:45 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
I'll step in also on this thread for a few reasons. I know the shooter. I know and have shot the rifle. I also inspected the rifle within a couple hours of it happening. I will not say where the ammo came from. I was asked not to.

The shooter DID NOT reload this ammo himself. It came from a company that sells reloaded ammo....so it is Commercially reloaded ammo. It was pistol powder. They found a few others with pistol powder in with when he took the ammo back to them. I do not know how the mix u happened, whether it was someone failing to clean the machine out or grabbed the wrong powder container, I do not know.

So what did the ammo company say?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bad AR-15 KABOOM (with CAVARMS lower) - ouch - pics at link & at bottom of page 1 (Page 3 of 4)

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