Quoted: You think a stripped bare basic AR will work better on the battlefield?

Don't know about a stripped AR, but a stripped M16 would work better in some situations.....

Quoted: I once staked my life on the M16A1.  It was plain and simple, no weird gadgets, and it did the job just fine. If you haven't been there and done it, then keep your fucking mouths shut and useless opinions to yourselves.  There are way too many "wanna-be's" lurking around here that have absolutely no idea what a combat weapon is all about. Rant over. 1st Cav Div, B 5/7 RVN 1970

The gadgets make the weapon more effective, increase hit to shot ratio and effect increases your survivability.   I have shot with and without them and not talking about on the range either. Like I have said numerous times  if I were in the line again, I would pay out of pocket  to make sure I had them if I was not issued them.

Maj USMC ODS and OIF I, III and upcoming 5-7.1

Quoted: Quoted: I once staked my life on the M16A1.  It was plain and simple, no weird gadgets, and it did the job just fine. If you haven't been there and done it, then keep your fucking mouths shut and useless opinions to yourselves.  There are way too many "wanna-be's" lurking around here that have absolutely no idea what a combat weapon is all about. Rant over. 1st Cav Div, B 5/7 RVN 1970 The gadgets make the weapon more effective, increase hit to shot ratio and effect increases your survivability.   I have shot with and without them and not talking about on the range either. Like I have said numerous times  if I were in the line again, I would pay out of pocket  to make sure I had them if I was not issued them. Maj USMC ODS and OIF I, III and upcoming 5-7.1

+1.  Thanks for your service, old fella, but a lot's changed since 1970.

Quoted: Quoted: Maj USMC ODS and OIF I, III and upcoming 5-7.1 +1.  Thanks for your service, old fella, but a lot's changed since 1970.

Did I miss the joke? Because the service he mentions was Operation Desert Shield/Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom I and III. That's hardly old school.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Maj USMC ODS and OIF I, III and upcoming 5-7.1 +1.  Thanks for your service, old fella, but a lot's changed since 1970. Did I miss the joke? Because the service he mentions was Operation Desert Shield/Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom I and III. That's hardly old school.

Not STLRN, the VN guy...

Quoted: I once staked my life on the M16A1.  It was plain and simple, no weird gadgets, and it did the job just fine. If you haven't been there and done it, then keep your fucking mouths shut and useless opinions to yourselves.  There are way too many "wanna-be's" lurking around here that have absolutely no idea what a combat weapon is all about. Rant over. 1st Cav Div, B 5/7 RVN 1970

And things have improved a little in the last 36 years.
With my issued PAQ4 and PVS14 I can shoot better with my M16A4 in darkness, especially total darkness than you could with your A1.  Of course at 200 meters in near darkness you couldn't even see your target and I can that's a no brainer.  I bet that I could take a shot from an AK on my SAPI plate better than you on your bare chest, since the old, simple way is better right?

Sorry if I seem like I'm being an asshole, but you happened to post right after mine, so it seems like you were directing that comment to me.  If so, then you know where to go.  If not, then sorry.

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I'm sorry, but the times when a stripped rifle would outperform a rifle with a fast acquiring optic (aimpoint,etc), a weapon mounted flashlight, and IR laser are exactly one.  Day operations during good weather where your enemies were moving around with a ball and chain attached to their ankle.  Get your bone stock ar-15, at night, and try to clear your home.  Forget that you need 2 hands to control a rifle?  Forget that many places don't have lightswitches?  Forget that even if your batteries went out, your rifle would be reduced to a "stripped rifle?"  I'm sorry, but you give me a component/gadget/doohickie/widgit that improves my hit probability, and reduces my probability of being a casualty because I couldn't do one of the following:  Acquire target in any condition, target the target qucker than target can target me, produce hits on said target faster than target can produce hits on me, make my ammo last longer by requiring less expenduature per target.......you see where I am going.  Give me a doo-dad that does nothing, I'll be the first to ditch it.  Give me something that improves my situation more than hinders it.....I'll lug that bastard everywhere I go.  Aimpoints, NVGs, IR lasers, flashlights, VG's all would have a place in my kit if I were going somewhere that I know has bullets flying around.  Hell, if you didn't need em, take them off...not like it's hard....but then again, your probably the type that would forsake body armor while persisting in an area that is likely to have bullets headed your way.

i lean towards the simple as well.  i was never a fan of the PVS/14 but i really found the PAQ and a pair of PVS/7Ds to be a fantastic combination especially when on a head harness over a baseball cap and not the ballistic helmet mount. I carried my M4 configured like this

vertical fore grip
PAQ/4
M68 CCO
surefire M3  (private purchase)

second time around i had an A4 with a private purchased SN-4 and a bi-pod. i seriously considered putting a Doctor reddot on top of the scope ring and mounting the M3 light but it just wasnt necessary for me at that time. you really have to assess your needs and act accordingly. dont be afraid to try something new. theres always going to be some PX ranger fag who validates himself by being more tactical than thou. dont get caught up in that game. do what works for you. if it makes you faster, more efficient, and enhances your ability to accomplish the mission then try it.

what the military weapons really need is a free float tube, and a heavy barrel.  most soldiers will never complain about the weight of a carbine, because theyve carried a saw or 240.

Quoted: Quoted: Corporal James Webb United States Marines, 167 confirmed kills. While I appreciate his service very much, I find this number very hard to believe. As a result, the rest of the post becomes suspect.

Well I've known James the better part of twenty years, grew up with him, shot with him, went to college with him, etc. He was in country for two years with the 1st Marine from the very first day we invaded. He is up for the Silver Star (one of thirty issued by department of the Navy since the war began), also got some kind of Marine distinguished service medal, along with a purple heart, and at least another medal that I know of. I've met his fellow Marines, seen letters by his commanders, 167 confirmed kills. Is he a badass- well he dragged several friends wounded under fire from a burning humvee, then went back to drag out the dead so the rags wouldn't burn their bodies. He was also part of the group that was the distraction for the extraction team that went in to rescue Jessica Lynch. They didn't ride with news crews in the 1st Marine at the beginning because they had one objective.

Basically he said on the ground the guys have to much junk, their weapons have to many gadgets, the gear is really heavy and when in an extended fire fight (one he was in lasted 36 hours in Felujah ) then most of the stuff in not needed. Outside of optics he said most of the stuff is just extra weight. The guy is 6'4" 260. He said most Marines were under supplied when it came to ammo or grenades and it ran out quickly which they did have.  The point he made along with others is that between the gear, the extra crap on the rifles, and all the equipment, they could just carry more ammo.

Suspect? Well look it up, he should be recieving his medals within the next month or so according to some letters he recieved and a phone call from his LT. Some of these things have to go through congress to be approved.


Creeper    

Interesting read, so far.

Quoted: Quoted: Ammo lasts longer if you get more first round hits due to good optics and can often plant rounds right where you want them. Tell that to the AIMPOINT shooters who I smoked with my irons in my last class. I'm not here to brag.  Shit!  I think I'm just an average shooter.  But too often people substitute gadgetry for skill. I've never been in military combat, but the training I've had has convinced me that K.I.S.S. is a good idea.

That's just it. It's training, not combat.

In training it's easy to focus on that front sight since the targets aren't shooting back at you.
In combat you are more likely to involuntarily focus on the target rather than your sights. The red dot allows you to focus on the target and use your sight effectively.

Quoted: The Mission Dictates The Gear.

+10.
In my 17+ years of military service(6 years light Infantry, 3 of those with 82nd Abn. and now 11 with the MP's including current time on SRT) I still believe in the minimal approach. My 2 carbines are fitted only with a good sight/optic system and a Surefire light on a "Tower mount" on the FSB, easily activated with my support hand thumb, and a good sling. If the mission dictates things like lasers,NOD,etc, then I add only as much gear as needed for the mission faced. It is very easy to go overboard, but you eventually have to decide "do I really need this piece of gear or am I adding it to go with the current trends?"Technology is nice, but if there is no true need for it, why hang it off your rifle?

To each his own, but I guess Im just stuck in my minimalist rut.

John
"I am a soldier. I fight where I'm told, and win where I fight"
Gen G.S. Patton

Quoted: Quoted: An 8 oz. flashlight isn't heavy either.  From K.I.S.S. to "Hollywood", it's a difference of like 5 lbs tops.  Who in the hell complains about 5lbs?  Not even my girlfriend did, sorry boys, hit the gym It's just like any physical job. If you carry the weapon every day, be it 5 pounds or 12, you get used to the weight. Train hard, fight easy. I worked a 24" Husky chainsaw summers in high school and college. It was a heavy sumanabitch for the first few days. Now it's nothing. Pick it up, use it, put it down. For a weapon example, my first AR was a 20" HBAR. A wee over 10 pounds. 5 years with that before I bought a carbine or built anything. Now my tricked out carbine is 8 pounds, and my HD rifle is 6.5. They are nothing to me. I want to put more on them just so the weight is closer to what I'm used to.

Totaly agree with Cowboy here, I carried a 26 pound M-60 for a year, got used to it. When I was sent back to a rifle squad, a -16A2 seemed like a toy. It's just a matter of perspective, but I do not believe in carrying un-needed gear/accessories.

John]

Buddy of mine just got from Iraq. He served with the 82nd. He carried the saw. he said the guys liked the optics and flash lights. It got heavy sometimes he said but he would rather have it than not have it. he said the only thing that sucked was the vest they wore but it would save your life so he wore it. We are good friends and I am glad he is back he is a no nonsense guy and wouldnt lie.