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Posted: 10/3/2005 6:08:33 AM EDT
[#1]
I think it's a good idea. Especially if you could stick a short version on a RR
 I will be looking for one when it comes around.Sounds like alot of you guys are just peeved because you blew your munitions budget on a $2000 scope to for your AR pistol when the FiveSeven was released(and ammo was available). Or was it 1500 worth of AR crap on your shotgun? Those of us who didn't, love the pistol and the round. I have over 3000 rounds right now that cost about as much as good 9mm. And yes, on paper the round is a step below 5.56. In real life, it is a round that will let the user put 20 rounds in center mass at extreme rapid fire. It is also a round that will drop a feral dog in one shot, center mass. That's something my AR has never done, much less a handgun. All that to say this: If you don't like the round, the upper or me, get off this topic and let the members of this market segment ohh and ahh over it. Rember, Magpul was just a small company making prototype stocks not too long ago... |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 6:35:34 AM EDT
[#2]
No one said it would
Nope. At $15/box for inferior ammunition this won't replace anything. Which is the whole point, this upper is less effective than a regular AR upper (even though it was designed to serve a different purpose).
If you're going to plink with this upper then you had better have deep pockets because this is going to make surplus 5.56 look like 22LR bulk pack.
Nice little distraction. 
Please show me where I said it should not be produced. MY point, which you don't seem to get, is that the 5.7 cartridge has inferior ballistics and is step backward in development for the AR/M16.
No, a step backward for the 1919A4 would be to convert it to run the 5.7. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 7:11:38 AM EDT
[#3]
Yeah that must be it .But if you really want to know my latest upper has been a 6.8. Ammo availability in this area is about on par with the 5.7 (weak). But the 6.8 has some range and does a good job in the terminal deapartment.
If you can't empty a M16 (9mm or 5.56) in the 8" circle then you have no business carrying a full-auto weapon. If you can't do it with a semi-auto 5.56 then you need training not a lighter round. Then again with a 5.56 you don't need to put 20 rounds in the heart to stop the target. As for the effects of the 5.7 they have been documeted by the experts in the field, Dr. Robert's suggested reading on the subject:
Oh yes the INDUSTRY Partner that produced a product that was needed and people had been asking for (a telestock with fixed stock strength & stability). Has there been a clamor for an AR rechambered in a weaker & more expensive round? I must have missed that thread. Rhineland arms has some obvious engineering talent, this project clearly shows that off. I'd think a project like this would be a much larger seller if were chambered in a more available round like .17 rimfire. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 8:47:29 AM EDT
[#4]
Some people are confusing terminal performance with fun.
I love shooting my IOM. It is the most accurate handgun I've ever shot. More importantly to me, it is the most fun gun I've ever shot. I like the idea of a cheaper alternative to the CP90 that may or may not be released to the public. I like the idea of taking this into a handgun only range. I like the idea of having a pistol and rifle that use the same ammo. I like the idea of 50 round magazines. I don't like the idea of $30 a box of ammo and limited availability. However, Fiocchi is gearing up to produce ammo, and you know what the cool thing is? They are asking 5.7 users for input on what loads to produce. Pretty cool. It's a niche round and a niche weapon. Is it going to replace my AR for when TSHTF? No. Neither has my IOM replaced my Glock. What it will be is a way to increase my enjoyment at the range. What's the problem with that? I can see no use to those who don't like the round, mostly based on terminal performance, who shit on those of us who like to shoot the round. Rhineland Arms never marketed this as a SHTF weapon, so I have no idea why the attacks started on the terminal performance. It's another choice in a nation founded on the free market and the choices it provides. If you don't want to invest in 5.7 then don't, but to come into this thread and attack the product based on its terminal performance, when it's not being marketed that way, is just stupid. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 8:50:16 AM EDT
[#5]
Actually, there were several threads floating the idea of a 5.7 AR, so yes you did miss them. Inevitably, in every thread there was someone who poo-pooed the idea based on the 5.7 not being 5.56. No one really cared. People like this round despite the shortcomings with terminal performance. Not everything has to be practical. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 8:54:44 AM EDT
[#6]
Why can’t I just buy a cool new upper for fun? Why does everything have to boil down to manstopping ballistics? I already have enough combat ready rifles to last twenty lifetimes. Now I want cool toys for fun. Something a little more powerful than a .22 rimfire and that takes 50 round magazines would be a very cool and an uber fun toy. Useful for carrying on the trip to the barn at night too. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 9:15:09 AM EDT
[#7]
I like the modularity of the AR platform. I need to read more about the 5.7 round before I decide whether I would buy an upper for one, but I appreciate when companies engineer and development new ways to use the AR platform.
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Posted: 10/3/2005 9:46:10 AM EDT
[#8]
To the thread crappers
How bout we stop crapping on this thread and let someone with a 5.7 do some Box o Truth wannabe tests and post the results. If it fails the tests, you are right, but we will still buy one. If it passes the test, you will still think you're right (the tests were rigged) and we will still buy one. I volunteer myself. Please tell me what you want to see and I will try to incorporate it into the test. Links and further info to follow. Thank you |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 9:48:30 AM EDT
[#9]
We are trying to do two things with these rifles and rounds. Some of you are really close to what we are really after on this rifle and the 5.7.
The first is that we have someone who wanted a R22 22LR for something special. We proposed instead of a .22LR the 5.7 on the grounds that the FN mags are superior to any .22 magazine and the round is also superior on feeding, ejection and all those sort of things. The 10/22 or R22 all decked out costs about the same and would still have lots of issues for the intendend purpose, if it could even work. The second is we have a lot of requests for a R22 in 17HMR or 22mag. Due to the massive amount of work it takes to get those rounds to work in a semi auto we proposed this round instead on the grounds of the feeding and ejection issues plus it will end up costing the same and is customizable. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 10:21:28 AM EDT
[#10]
I will watch with interest and if ammo becomes cheaper/reloadable I'll be poking around some more. For now this is a cool project!
How about some more pics! |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 12:01:46 PM EDT
[#11]
RA,
If you want to send someone that upper to test, I'll be happy to volunteer! 
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Posted: 10/3/2005 12:20:51 PM EDT
[#12]
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Posted: 10/3/2005 3:45:44 PM EDT
[#13]
You know, someone mentioned that they liked the idea of a pistol and rifle sharing ammo. I am a BIG BIG fan of shared ammo between pistol and rifle. It is even better when they share the same mag.
I see that it would be fairly difficult or impossible to use the P90 mag in a pistol, but it is quite easily doable to use the FN57 pistol mag in a rifle. I would also like to see some extended mags that would work in both. A 30 rd. capacity would be sufficient. BTW, has anyone ever bullpupped an AR lower? That could potentially be very interesting. And with a change of operating system or buffer or in the case of pistol length rounds, this should be very doable even with feeding from the pre-existing mag well. Honestly, as long as it used a standard AR lower and FCG, I don't care what the rest looks like or how it works. The other thing I would like to say is that to be honest I am not a big fan of the 5.7mm. I don't dislike it and I understand its purpose. My primary issue is first cost, then terminal performance. However, at the same time I am a BIG fan of general design of the P90, its magazine and the matching FN57 pistol. I understand that as they wre orginally designed primarily for military end users, fragmentation or expansion was not pursued as a a primary terminal perfomance method. However, if the round was developed in this direction or if a necked up round compatable with the magazines or weapons (it is my understanding that the current weapons could not handle this mechanically, due to the locking system or lack thereof) was developed with this in mind things could e very very interesting indeed. It is this last point where the adaptation of the AR offers a lot of potential as a different locking or operation method could be developed for use with a necked up version of the 5.7mm still using the P90 mag. Tsh77769 |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 3:52:20 PM EDT
[#14]
I like the idea of a "necked up" 5.7, but I think that would be more hard to find than actual 5.7 ammo.
The good news is Fiocchi is gearing up production. Hopefully, they'll get the price down to around 15 bucks a box. Not .22lr or 9mm cheap, but for a wildcat, which is essentially what 5.7 is, it's not bad. Do like the concept of a necked up 5.7 though. Makes me wonder what diameter bullet you could shove in the brass. I'd imagine sectional density would suck, but that's not the purpose. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 4:54:29 PM EDT
[#15]
I'm thinking neck it up to 6mm, 6.5mm or .30 is sufficient. Projectile design is really the key. In fact if they did some development of expanding or fragmenting 5.7mm this might make me happy by itself. I wonder if you can load standard .224 projectile slike those used in the 5.56 NATO in the 5.7 mm? I beleive that you can, if so it would be intersting to see what would happen if they loaded a hornady TAP/V-max style projectile in the 5.7mm.
Tsh77769 |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 5:07:15 PM EDT
[#16]
The 5.7 uses standard .223 bullets, they are reloadable. The actual design requirement is for a light, low recoil, small caliber rifle and some other features. Terminal ballistics is not realy important on this, some of you guys should be able to figure it out.
The other rifle we are working on does use the FiveseveN pistol mags. For those of you who demand power, we have at least put our low recoil, semi 308 on paper, after half a year. We may have something for you next year. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 5:19:50 PM EDT
[#17]
Bushmaster has had a bullpup config (M17S) for a number of years.... I am not sure if this is exactly what you were looking for but hope it helps..... www.bushmaster.com/shopping/m17s/ |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 5:23:56 PM EDT
[#18]
How long before you expect this to take flight?
I'm thinking Christmas present for moi. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 6:27:48 PM EDT
[#19]
Having briefly owned one I am pretty familiar with the M17 and while I like them just fine, it is not what I was speaking of. I meant something using a standard AR15 lower reciever.
Tsh77769 |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 7:38:25 PM EDT
[#20]
I am in for one , you can put me down for the production model
 When can we expect a price on the upper???? |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 11:41:48 PM EDT
[#21]
Sorry.... I misunderstood.... The Bushmaster is the only bullpup config that I know of.... Only reason I suggested it is that the trigger and significant bits would end up being too far aft in the "bullpup" to be of any use using a standard AR lower |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 7:13:54 AM EDT
[#22]
I've built uppers in both the .22 magnum and the .17 HMR and the real problem with these two rounds is MAGAZINES. The only magazines I could find in any volume was the Marlin 22 magnum magazine for their bolt rifle and it only holds 7 rounds. I believe Rhineland ran into the same problem. My two rifles are designed for varmint shooting so hi-cap mags are not an issue for me. The reason I would like the 5.7 is the round is reloadable -- I can set it up for me and the magazines, especially the P90 mag are really up there in capacity, I would not need to load one of those very often. Since the magazine lays flat on top, it should not get in the way -- as far as I can tell. I don't know if Rhineland will have the upper setup for a scope or not -- I sure hope so. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 10:51:07 PM EDT
[#23]
Rhineland, cool upper!
On the 5.7 necked up - 7mm Penna. Factory ammo available overseas. On the 5.7 mags - ever dropped one that was partially full/empty? You will stop singing praises of the mags .... Better ergonomics compared to the P90 - even with the can, too easy to "brush" your hand or your buddy when stacked due to the overall ergos of the P90. Hate the damn thing. Several reports of SIGSW (self inflicted gun shot wounds) to the hands from P90s. Bullpup - ACE has something that will be premiered at SHOT 06 I say keep working on it, it is a tremendous improvement over the P90, the concept for which FN stole from HILL here in Houston (the Hill SMG was shown to FN who expressed no interest until Mr Hill passed away, the miraculously FN releases this new fangled weapon) As to the round, it is comparable to the 22 Carbine and 22 Hornet, neither of which are so criticized as the FN. Maybe people just don't like FN .... |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 2:27:17 AM EDT
[#24]
Marty, regarding the Hill weapon, was this a machine pistol with a top mounted magazine and was it featured in one of the popular gun rags a while back though well after the P90 was out for a while?
Also, although the magazine was on top and horizontal, the mechanism for realigning the cartrdige was in the gun itself rather than the magazine, yes? Tsh77769 |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 5:06:53 AM EDT
[#25]
We are going to stop by B-Square and see if they have something off the shelf that can be used for mounting a scope on top. We do have a scope rail just behind the mag but that may be too close for most people.
I have read the reports about dropping partialy full mags. We have one and although we have not dropped it on concrete we have purposly hit it very hard on all sides with only one side effect. When hit on the bottom a round will fly out. We have found this to be the only other fun way to unload a mag. We have not been able to get the rounds to turn sideways in the mag. Also, working on the mag release so when you hit the lever the mag will pop off to one side or the other. That may be a bit to tricky considering the mag is made of plastic. The only realy problem with the ergonomics etc of the rifle is that with the heavy barrel it is front end heavy and the shorty stock is too small for some. We can taper the barrel and bring it down in size removing about .5# from the front end. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 5:15:31 AM EDT
[#26]
Do you guys have a date these will be available for me to get my greedy little hands on? I need to start stockpiling mags now!
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Posted: 10/5/2005 5:31:09 AM EDT
[#27]
We are trying to get to the point were these will be available to put under christmas trees for 2005.
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Posted: 10/5/2005 5:46:33 AM EDT
[#28]
Rhineland, this is an AWESOME idea. Perfect upper for RDIAS and registered receiver M16s! I'll be buying one if/when you offer them commercially.
Thanks for being an innovator! Josh |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 6:30:41 AM EDT
[#29]
Are there any pictures of the John L. Hill H-15 ? |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 6:40:29 AM EDT
[#30]
You guys suck! (Only cause I need more money!) GREAT! |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:14:16 PM EDT
[#31]
Indeed I was referring to the John L. Hill H-15. In a nutshell, Hill showed it in the US, got zero interest. Then showed it to FN H and got the run around. Could not get the prototypes back into the US. Hill passes away, FN pulls a miracle and all the US gun writers trip over themselves to praise FN for what Hill came up with. On the cartridge, I have the article here by Ayoob where he starts with "There is no cartridge in the US of similar performance ..." Guess he forgot about the 22 Carbine, ironically better known as the 5.7 MMJ, as well as the 22 Hornet and its derivatives. While I do not have pictures of the Hill, we have some of his original sales literature, and have spoken at length with his machinist. There was a rumor that the Lone Star Air Museum on Galveston actually had two of them on display, but I was unable to confirm. HOWEVER, this is Rhineland's thread so let's give it back to them. BTW, Rhineland, I was not lamenting the ergonomics of your system, on the contrary, I was trying to point out the fact that it was so much better. Muscle memory and operator familiarity with the bulk of the controls are very important in my book. |
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Posted: 10/6/2005 5:24:27 AM EDT
[#32]
If you can make a 5.7mm upper that is integrally supressed without slowing the bullet (I don't mind the sonic crack) and has a total barrel length of 7-10", I'd be very interested. ;)
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Posted: 10/8/2005 11:43:33 AM EDT
[#33]
Quick question, will these be available "in the white"?
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Posted: 10/8/2005 5:59:14 PM EDT
[#34]
They will not be available in the white at the wear on the aluminum even though it is a high grade is realy fast. Also, it scratches very easy.
On the 5.7mm we are getting nearly 2800FPS with SS192 40 grain bullets. I need to chrono the 16" AR15 as a comparision. The SS192 is a very interesting bullet design, we have many results after shooting things with it. I see no reason why a suppresor manufacture could not build a suppresor into the handguard area. They would have to go with a smaller diameter barrel to give them enough room to work with though. We may also go with a quick change no tools barrel removal system. |
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Posted: 10/8/2005 6:29:51 PM EDT
[#35]
Darn, I was hoping to get an unfinished version, so I could finish it myself.
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Posted: 10/9/2005 2:27:13 AM EDT
[#36]
I'll take one upper please!
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Posted: 10/9/2005 3:05:26 AM EDT
[#37]
Neat idea, any chance of the P90 mags working with other calibers that are more readily available?
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Posted: 10/15/2005 4:06:53 PM EDT
[#38]
I'm jonesin for this thing BAD. Got magazines ready to go!
Off Topic, I'm just fascinated by the P90 mag design. It's the damnedest design for a mag that I've ever seen. And I love being able to put an entire box of ammo into it! |
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Posted: 10/18/2005 9:44:17 AM EDT
[#39]
Personally, I like it. A standard AR lower with an upper that takes a P90 mag? Pretty ingenious, IMO. The round may not be superior to 5.56mm, but the configuration has its advantages:
* 50 rounds loaded is nice...this will be a bonus for people that just want a trunk gun or something to hike with when they don't want to carry extra magazines with them. * The lack of a magazine on the bottom makes this config a natural for folks that do a lot of prone shooting. Reloaders can also appreciate a downward-ejecting action that puts all their brass in a tidy pile at their feet. * Assuming the above dimensions in relation to the P90 are accurate, a SBR version could have great utility in the PDW market, where the military can leverage many years of operational experience and parts interchangeability with the AR15/M16 family. Good Job, I say! Keep the price reasonable, and if the P90 magazines have reasonable availability, I'll buy one! Just another idea...Would it be possible to make a "P90-like" magazine that would hold 5.56mm rounds and feed them into a similar receiver in 5.56mm? Probably not, because of the added length of the 5.56mm cartridge, but an interesting thought. |
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Posted: 10/18/2005 8:14:30 PM EDT
[#40]
The 5.56 will not work in a p90 type mag as the shell has a taper wereas the 5.7 case does not. That keeps them stacked in neat rows.
Most plinkers and small games hunters will be more than pleased with the power of the 5.7 |
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Posted: 10/19/2005 7:48:45 AM EDT
[#41]
RhinelandArms,
Will the upper work on a registered full auto lower or with a DIAS? I saw where you mentioned that a folding stock would be possible, so I wonder about the bolt travel. Thanks |
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Posted: 10/19/2005 8:29:49 AM EDT
[#42]
I for one will be seriously considering this upper over a P90.
I like the idea of having a 50 rounds AR pistol just for the hell of it. I don't think anyone that is looking at this upper could care less or give a damn about it's characteristics compared to anything else. If we really wanted to discuss which caliber is best I suggest we veered the entire thread off course and discuss 7.62 vs. 5.56. I grew out of 5.56 a long time ago, an AR to me is nothing more than a plinking weapon, if I wanted to do some real damage I'd grab the FAL or the M1A. The only reason I even have an AR anymore is to hang my ACOG, M93B, LMT MRP upper together so I can show it off to friends. If I considered the AR in 5.56 as a serious viable weapon and I only have 1 rifle to use in all facets of life than this new upper is clearly a step back. But I have several rifle in different caliber, I also have several AR and several upper in different calibers.......so the idea of a 5.7 upper on an AR pistol appeals to me much more than a P90. This entire thread has that smacking of Ferrari vs. Z06, people always discuss them but someone that is going to buy a Ferrari couldn't care less about the Z06 no matter how fast it is. This upper is far from a Ferrari (that's what LMT MRP is for) but in the same chain of though it is far from a 5.56 upper (Z06) and those that consider buying this upper isn't going to be comparing nor caring about a 5.56 upper or ballistics. |
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Posted: 10/19/2005 1:15:43 PM EDT
[#43]
Can we get some more pics of the upper? Its pretty sweet and if I were to suddenly come into massive quantities of money (college, home, ammo for current weapons come first) I would be more than happy to invest in one.
It is definately a great concept. More 5.7 options on the market would go a long ways towards lowering the price of ammo and magazines. I'm sure it would also lower the prices on 5.7 reloading supplies and piss off all of the antis in one fell swoop.
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Posted: 10/19/2005 1:25:29 PM EDT
[#44]
Any chance of putting down a deposit and getting on a list?
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Posted: 10/19/2005 1:28:42 PM EDT
[#45]
+1, me too. |
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Posted: 10/19/2005 1:33:12 PM EDT
[#46]
Unfortunatly, this would be banned either on its own or with the next AWB (whenever it is)... So I'd be puttin down deposits for at least 2
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Posted: 10/19/2005 5:23:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Well we screwed up again with our design. We made it rather difficult to use with a FA lower or DIAS. It will require some very creative work and a heck of a lot of machining.
This is good in that we get approvals very easily. It is bad in that we can kiss off any serious Class 3 fun. When we convert over to production we may accept deposits, but will wait until that time. The recoil is pretty severe on the parts so we had to use the recoil spring in the stock to keep the bolt from destructing the rear parts. It uses only 1" of that so we may be able to go with a Carbon 15 type set up. |
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Posted: 10/19/2005 5:33:59 PM EDT
[#48]
OK, reading about the recoil spring makes me wonder. Is this going to be a full rifle or will it be available in upper only?
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Posted: 10/19/2005 7:03:30 PM EDT
[#49]
This looks like it could be an AWESOME project! Kudos RhinelandArms!
And I'm not even personally interested, as I live in CA. |
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Posted: 10/27/2005 6:25:24 AM EDT
[#50]
We have the recoil under control as well as the trigger lash. It now feels like a very smooth 22 mag. We will begin testing using a old m16 magazine as a brass catcher.
I think with any luck we can begin production before December. Just wish there was not such a ammo shortage. Must be the Govt guys buying up all the ammo to play with there P90s. |
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