Quoted: Quoted: And if you look hard enough, you'll see I'm not the only one "making up this BS" on the 147gr.  But like I said, I won't argue it here. Then I guess the 150 involved officer shootings involving the 147 gr is still "BS" to you?  There is A LOT of data regarding the CURRENT 147 gr designs that show it to be a good performer.  What ARE you basing your OPINION on?  I'd really like to know, Ken.  Seriously, I'm not trying to be a smart ass.  I just want to see the information that warrants your criticism of the 147 gr round.

You misunderstood my statement.

I said "147 gr sucks."
Someone said "your statement is BS."
I said "My statement is not BS."

That's it.   How you came up with this Then I guess the 150 involved officer shootings involving the 147 gr is still "BS" to you? I have no idea.  You show me where you think I said anything about anything being incorrect, invalid, or wrong or anything about LEO making poor ammunition choices.

All I said was "147gr sucks."

YMMV

I agree. But you know just like I know, there are no FACTS that makes one 9mm round better than the other.

Yes, there are FACTS that make some 9mm rounds very superior to others. But what you must do to find those facts is look at real data and avoid the heresay and BS. I can mix up a batch of gel and take a bunch of various types of 9mm ammo out and test it thoroughly and come back and report (with solid scientific evidence) which performed best. If I match that up with 100 or 200 police shootings that mirror the performance witnessed in the gel shots, then you can reach a conclusion that a particular load is good or bad. You can also compare one load to another and determine if one performs better, about the same or worse.

Just like with 223 cal ammo. Everything is just one person's data vs another. One person's interpretation of the data vs. the other.

It isn't one person's word against another. It's one person's word against a bunch of BS. That's why I only trust the data of people who know what they are doing and distrust people who only repeat what they hear, when they may not have a clue what they are even talking about.

A person shot and killed another person with a particular round right here on this board, it's a fact. And he still caught flak on his comments.

It's a fact? How do you know that? Do you know this person? All I know is that someone in this thread CLAIMED to have killed someone. For all I know, this poster may be a 15 year old kid on here getting his jollies. I simply don't know who he is or if his story is true. I'm not saying he is lying. But I simply don't know. Therefore I would hesitate to call anything fact when I have no way to prove or disprove what was said.

He caught flak? Now how do you figure that? Nobody bad-mouthed this fella. They simply pointed out that one single shooting is not enough to have a real sample. As was mentioned above, there have been people dropped with a .22 short on the first shot. But just because one person has success with it doesn't mean it's an acceptible choice for self defense.

So just because I choose not to engage in a pissing match over something that I said/repeated and never claim it to be fact, doesn't mean I refuted anyone else's claim either.

No. But considering this was a serious thread, with a serious purpose, your comment was rather worthless and contributed nothing helpful to the discussion. You say you never claimed it as fact. Well, if you don't know it to be a fact, why repeat it in a thread when someone is trying to choose the best load to defend his life with?

Can I go out and reprint and republish everything I read about the 147gr bullet here? I could. But I don't have to, it's all on the Internet or else (like a Glocktalk). You read it, you interpret it the way you want, and then you carry the load that works best for you. That's the way it work with any round, same thing happened in the GD shotgun forum, too.

Sorry, but if you make a claim on this board, you better have some factual data to support your opinion. Because if there's a post located that contains false information, it will be pointed out by people who do have data readily available.

The OP asked a simple question. Maybe I would have been better off saying something like "not too light, not too heavy" but I guess that would have drawn some heat, too.

Say anything you wish. But if you suggest a particular brand, bullet style or bullet weight is somehow better or worse than another, then back it up with data. If you make a claim and can prove it, no heat will be drawn. Unless the data was obtained in an incorrect manner, there will be nothing to dispute. That's why sharing data is so important.  

I'm still pretty new, I didn't think unless you published a book, what you said was automatically BS. If that's the case, there's a lot of BS here. But I don't believe that. I think he took a cheap shot at me in a thread where everyone was simply expressing their opinions, likes/dislikes, and some facts.

I know some people who have published books and they are also full of BS. In fact, two individuals have put a series of books on the market concerning ammo that's loaded with BS. Why? Because their science and methods are poor and real scientists laugh at them and their claims.  One's standing in life has no bearing on their information, only what they know. I can sit here and write a 500 page book describing how to build a racing engine. But that doesn't mean I'm qualified to offer any meaningful information to the reader.  Being new doesn't make what you say BS. But making an ignorant statement that "147 gr ammo sux" does. That clearly isn't the case. Some 147 gr ammo sux. Most 115 gr ammo sux.

I do agree with one thing. There is a lot of BS here. Not from Troy, Tatjana, Brouhaha, Forest, Lumpy, UrbanKaos, etc. But from people who just happen along and start talking about how Glaser and MagSafe are the best self defense loads on the market for the 9mm.....how birdshot in a shotgun is best for home defense......how 40 gr JHP's are the best for a .223 carbine, etc. I can go on and on. But I can say without a doubt that such claims are total BS and I usually do when I see them. Is because I am a mean person who enjoyts flaming people? No! It's because I happen to know that such claims are false because I've seen factual data that shows otherwise. It's not one person's word against another's. It's fact vs. BS. Fcats win every time.

Can we forget about this and stay on topic?

I am very much on topic. Tayous asked what was the best defensive load on the market for 9mm and I am going to see to it that he gets factual information, not heresay.

If we can agree that a 115 gr bullet that penetrates 10" and expands to .52" in diameter doesn't equal the performance of a 147 gr bullet that penetrates to 14" and expands to .64" in diamter, then sure, we can forget it. But I will never concede that they are equal or that the 115 in this example is better, because quite clearly, it isn't.

-CH

I'm running Winchester white-box 115gr JHP in my Beretta right now.

Fact is, most of the hollow points made the major companies will out perform FMJ, and FMJ aint all that bad.

If money were absolutely not an issue, I'd go with Federal Hydra-Shock 147 gr (still in 9mm).

I selected other because my choice for "Best" would be Federal.

Fact is, most of the hollow points made the major companies will out perform FMJ, and FMJ aint all that bad.

Be careful with that assessment. While I agree, I would prefer a good JHP to FMJ, you better know the penetrating characteristics of the 115 gr JHP you are using. The 115 gr loads tend to underpenetrate. Having a load that penetrates at least 12" is of the first and foremost concern. Only when a load meets that standard does expansion matter. Yet good expansion, without adequate penetration isn't acceptable. That's why birdshot isn't a good home defense load for your shotty. It's why 40 gr varmint bullets isn't good for defensive use in .223's. And it's why some light weight JHP's aren't adequate performers in handguns. A small wound that reaches all the way to the vitals works better than a shallow penetrating load that expands well, but doesn't reach the vitals.

-CH

Quoted: Fact is, most of the hollow points made the major companies will out perform FMJ, and FMJ aint all that bad. Be careful with that assessment. While I agree, I would prefer a good JHP to FMJ, you better know the penetrating characteristics of the 115 gr JHP you are using. The 115 gr loads tend to underpenetrate. Having a load that penetrates at least 12" is of the first and foremost concern. Only when a load meets that standard does expansion matter. Yet good expansion, without adequate penetration isn't acceptable. That's why birdshot isn't a good home defense load for your shotty. It's why 40 gr varmint bullets isn't good for defensive use in .223's. And it's why some light weight JHP's aren't adequate performers in handguns. A small wound that reaches all the way to the vitals works better than a shallow penetrating load that expands well, but doesn't reach the vitals. -CH

Uh, depends on what your definition of "most" is, I guess.

Nationwide,

I'm not arguing that a good HP doesn't beat an FMJ. But you mentioned using 115 gr 9mm loads. I can tell you, based upon lots of research, that MOST 115 gr 9mm loads offer insufficient penetration. That's my definition of most in this case. Otherwise I agree with you 100%.

-CH

Quoted: I carry Speer 124gr +P GDHPs.

Isn't that Speer/Gold Dots???  If so why are they listed seperately?

Quoted: Nationwide, I'm not arguing that a good HP doesn't beat an FMJ. But you mentioned using 115 gr 9mm loads. I can tell you, based upon lots of research, that MOST 115 gr 9mm loads offer insufficient penetration. That's my definition of most in this case. Otherwise I agree with you 100%. -CH

Well, I'm glad you've done your research.  However, understanding that any handgun round is really insufficient for stopping a crazed killer bent on turning me to worm food, I'll be able to sleep knowing that if I do my part, any weapon I have be it handgun, carbine, shotgun, or non-firearm, will do it's part.

There are nearly unlimited variables in a deadly force scenario, and I think it's pointless for an amature (which covers just about all of us here, including me) to explore them ad nausium, unless one is conducting a bona fide scientific study, at which point opinions like yours and mine become meaningless drivel.  

I do Gold Dots and #5

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: And if you look hard enough, you'll see I'm not the only one "making up this BS" on the 147gr.  But like I said, I won't argue it here. Then I guess the 150 involved officer shootings involving the 147 gr JHP's is still "BS" still sucks to you?  There is A LOT of data regarding the CURRENT 147 gr designs that show it to be a good performer.  What ARE you basing your OPINION on?  I'd really like to know, Ken.  Seriously, I'm not trying to be a smart ass.  I just want to see the information that warrants your criticism of the 147 gr round. You misunderstood my statement. I said "147 gr sucks." Someone said "your statement is BS." I said "My statement is not BS." That's it.   How you came up with this Then I guess the 150 involved officer shootings involving the 147 gr is still "BS" to you? I have no idea.  You show me where you think I said anything about anything being incorrect, invalid, or wrong or anything about LEO making poor ammunition choices. All I said was "147gr sucks." YMMV

Ooops, sorry about that.  But, here, let me fix that real quick.  Okay, I fixed it for ya.  Now then, how does the 147 gr suck?

Seriously though, from all that I have seen in research and data on actual shootings the 147 gr is a pretty damn good round for the 9mm.  What do you have that refutes this?

I'm currently running Remington 124gr+P Golden Sabers in my G-19.  I've purchased a quantity of Federal's new 124gr HST that I hope to test sometime soon.  The test seminars (granted, promoted by Federal) seem to indicate that this is going to be a excellent load in this caliber.

But, good or not, I'll test it in *my* carry guns for expansion, penetration, and most of all, function reliability.  If it passes the first two but fails the last, it's worthless to me.

Kurt

There are nearly unlimited variables in a deadly force scenario, and I think it's pointless for an amature (which covers just about all of us here, including me) to explore them ad nausium, unless one is conducting a bona fide scientific study, at which point opinions like yours and mine become meaningless drivel.

AMEN

Well, I'm glad you've done your research. However, understanding that any handgun round is really insufficient for stopping a crazed killer bent on turning me to worm food, I'll be able to sleep knowing that if I do my part, any weapon I have be it handgun, carbine, shotgun, or non-firearm, will do it's part.

You are correct about one thing. That is the best handgun round still looks pretty feeble compared to good rifle and shotgun loads. But being that sometimes a handgun is all you can have with you when out on the go, I want every advantage I can get. That means a weapon as reliable as humanly possible, a weapon that fires accurately, a weapon with the highest capacity possible (Glock 17 for me), a weapon with sights I can see in low light conditions, ammo with low muzzle flash so I'm not blinded while firing and the best possible ammo I can get my hands on. I just feel it is prudent to have every advantage possible. And maybe most important of all is being able to employ your weapon faster and more accurately than the badguy, which means lots of training. But still, I don't want to handicap all of those other things by shooting just any ammo when there are better stuff out there. Remember, sometimes the difference between living and dying is very small. So stack everything you can in your favor.

There are nearly unlimited variables in a deadly force scenario, and I think it's pointless for an amature (which covers just about all of us here, including me) to explore them ad nausium, unless one is conducting a bona fide scientific study, at which point opinions like yours and mine become meaningless drivel.

When it comes to life and death, I think it's foolish not to explore them. Luckily for us, we don't have to worry about conducting bonafide scientific tests, because Dr. Gary Roberts and other ballistics experts have already done that for us. Therefore all that's required of us is to just look at the data they have presented, if we will only take the time to do so.

But again, my gripe isn't with you, it's with those who come on here saying 115 gr 9mm are the greatest thing since sliced bread and that 147 gr 9mm loads suck. The actual results show exactly the opposite. You have never said the 115 is better, just that you feel comfortable with them. That's a big difference from what a previous poster said. So don't take what I have said as a flame toward you. I am arguing more in a general than a personal way.

Anyway, I am tired of debating this subject too. I know what the various types of ammo will do and I know what I'm going to carry. If others feel they should ignore the data that's out there and use Wolf or whatever the cheapest ammo out there is, let them. If they'd rather listen to what Massad Ayoob or some other gun magazine writer says over people who are actually ballistics experts and know what they're talking about, then let them. If they want to believe the advertisements from MagSafe and Glaser over what the experts say, let them. I will attempt to point these people to good data, but if they don't want to look at it or accept it, then it's their ass and not mine. So everyone carry what you wish and good luck.

-CH

I'm also looking at the FMJ expanding ammo any thoughts on that one?

Quoted: I'm also looking at the FMJ expanding ammo any thoughts on that one?

http://ammoman.com/ has +P FMJ expanding at the bottom of the 9mm page.

Id like to get my hands on some 77 gr. Hirtenberger EMB-Monoblock
http://www.globalarms.net/images/hp_emb/cut-emb.jpg
http://www.globalarms.net/images/hp_emb/proj_9x19_gel.jpg

*test gun was a Glock 17*
Muzzle velocity: 1465fps
Muzzle energy: 367ft/lbs
10% gelatin (bare): 12.6 inches penetration, bullet expands to 0.63 caliber
Temp stretch cavity: 44 cubic in
Permanent crush cavity: 3.9 cubic in

"This bullet expands well into soft tissue with very little chance of exiting on a torso shot like a typical lightweight hollowpoint. Yet the SAME bullet has deep penetration after defeating glass and car bodies which has not been typical of lightweight hollowpoints...The Hirtenberger 77gr. EMB at 1465fps has a Power Factor of 113. This is a measure of felt recoil, all else being equal. In comparision, the 9mm 147gr. subsonic JHP and the 9mm 115 gr. JHP (+P+) have a Power Factor of 140 and 152, respectively. This means the EMB produces 20-25% LESS FELT RECOIL, making it an excellent choice for small frame pistols like the Glock 26. This also means [the EMB] permits more rapid follow-up shots from duty pistols and less muzzle rise from submachineguns."

Quoted: Quoted: I'm also looking at the FMJ expanding ammo any thoughts on that one? http://ammoman.com/ has +P FMJ expanding at the bottom of the 9mm page.

Thanks for the info on that. Does anyone know how well these work?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm also looking at the FMJ expanding ammo any thoughts on that one? http://ammoman.com/ has +P FMJ expanding at the bottom of the 9mm page. Thanks for the info on that. Does anyone know how well these work?

The Federal EFMJ loads work better than standard FMJ, but they still do not equal the performance of the Winchester 127 gr +P+, Winchester Ranger 147 gr and Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P. I would really check those loads out and pick whichever shoots best in your gun. They are all 3 good choices and you can't go wrong with either.

-CH

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm also looking at the FMJ expanding ammo any thoughts on that one? http://ammoman.com/ has +P FMJ expanding at the bottom of the 9mm page. Thanks for the info on that. Does anyone know how well these work? The Federal EFMJ loads work better than standard FMJ, but they still do not equal the performance of the Winchester 127 gr +P+, Winchester Ranger 147 gr and Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P. I would really check those loads out and pick whichever shoots best in your gun. They are all 3 good choices and you can't go wrong with either. -CH

He (Ammoman) also has Speer +P 124's for $109/500 rounds delivered.  This is what I've been buying to feed my 9's.  (P7M8, PM9, CZ75's)

Its not a JHP, but I've gotten the best accurecy in my Glocks from Hertenberger +P+ 100 gr

Quoted: Its not a JHP, but I've gotten the best accurecy in my Glocks from Hertenberger +P+ 100 gr

Where are you getting Hirts?