Was that with subsonics/?  I think he was asking specifically about subsonics.

Double Tap

FYI, for anyone that didn't see through Eracer's question, it was one of those with an obvious answer. The 6.8 will not stabalize a heavy, subsonic bullet. The very next post was the popcorn guy waiting for it to all play out but again, even though the 6.8 isn't good for subsonics, the .300blk ain't exactly a stellar performer either.

I don't typically respond to CRAZY, but here goes...



0% knowledge on how the rifle functions??? Aren't we talking AR's here? I am well versed on the function of DI and piston driven AR platforms. Did you mean I don't know how the 220 gr smk functions? Anytime anyone starts talking about the 1000's and 1000's of rounds they've shot, I get a little cautious. You are right, I have not seen any hogs or deer taken with this round. I also haven't seen any calibrated ballistic gel testing on it either.



This discussion was confined to 6.8 and .300 blk in the AR-15 platform. All your other listings of calibers are nice, but they aren't relevant. As far as your mall ninja comment, this is just plain childish. If you would like to discuss my law enforcement experience and credentials, including 6 years on my departments tactical team, I would be more than happy to do that via PM.

Recoil, you really should do yourself a favor and go read this...

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223

I never once have argued that a slow moving bullet has less potential than a faster one. What I did argue is who is swat to say that  "the current subsonic offering is basically not worth any decibel reduction"? It is obvious he has never even shot a blackout let alone shot one indoors yet he can make an absurd statement like that with no actual experience with the round.

I believe along with a lot of other people who believe that there is a significant worth in a decibel reduction for a subsonic. Just look at the massive growth of the round in the last year.

Try shooting an 6.8 in a enclosed area with a dark room then after your ears stop ringing and you have regained you vision come tell me that a suppressed subsonic has no worth. The noise and flash both deafen and blind making an informed and accurate follow up shot nearly impossible. The only tradeoff being a slower round but lets get real here. If anyone that has fired a subsonic 220 grain blackout round into anything with flesh at close distance can tell you that is a wound that you would not get up from. Just like swat says it is just like a .45 and there are not too many people who have been shot with a .45 in any true vitals and walked away to tell about it.



No, actually the same does not apply to the 6.8 because you have to have a rifle capable of shooting the round in question for it to apply.



Sorry you didn't get the absurdity I was going for as swat is comparing his 6.8 pushing the lightest bullet available as fast as it can go to a 300BLK pushing its heaviest bullet only as fast as the speed of sound allows.

Are we now going to bring in the expense and compatibility into a discussion on the merits of the BLK vs the 6.8? That would be one the 6.8 would handily lose and if we are comparing AR platforms I know of many .308 that are set up in an AR style so I do think it would be appropriate if we really wanted to get into what is better at "terminal performance".



Ok, you got me on this one. I was trying to stay out of the fray but after watching the vile that came out of what swat had to say I let the emotion get the better of me and I should not have called him a mall ninja and just realized hater will hate.

To answer your other questions since I am not quite sure what terminal performance is I just came up with 3 rounds that I knew have more energy than the 6.8 and were subsonic.

Now, if we were talking terminal ballistics then that would come down to what bullet I would chose and since my knowledge is limited on the bullet offering of the .510 and the 458 SOCOM I will not venture to guess which one has better terminal ballistics over the proven TSX.

P.S. Note to Swat_dude that is what people do who do not know anything about a round. They don't pontificate on what it is capable of.

No, I meant just like I stated you have 0% knowledge of how the blackout functions and if you think I meant that you don't know how an DI or piston driven AR operates mechanically then I would think even less of you. You still have no practical knowledge of what the 300 blackout is able to achieve yet you still profess from the highest mountain tops of what it is capable or incapable of.

You mentioned that the 300 BLK isn't exactly a stellar subsonic performer either compared to the 6.8. Could you please elaborate and tell me how a rifle that is compatible with every other AR part except the barrel. Is just a quiet as the MP5 (a gun that was/is carried by many SWAT/Police tactical teams and military personnel) with a round that is capable of traveling twice as far as the MP5 subsonic 9mm but yet "isn't exactly a stellar performer". So if the 300 BLK is so sub par at subsonics what does that make the MP5? Or did you have another gun in mind that has all the capabilities of an 300 BLK?

Now you have: 300BLK subsonic deer and pig kills just follow the link.



I apologize for the mall ninja remark it is just your lack of understanding of the blackout and what seems like a religious devotion to put it down to try to make the 6.8 look better got the best of me.

I have read that link and many others over the years and much of the training houses I have been to have pictures and actually slugs hung all over the walls but just because I read an article or saw it posted on the web does not make me an expert in all thing ballistic. Truth be told we can argue the merits of terminal ballistics all day and as long as they meet some basic penetration requirements (the blackout and 6.8 are both well into those requirements) shot placement will trump most bullet speeds and calibers.

I have seen many a video (probably a lot of what you saw to being a fellow LEO) that has shown people in gun fights with everything from a 9mm, shotguns to 120mm and a lot of stuff in between. Take out the really big stuff 50 cal + and I have seen unarmored people take multiple shotgun blasts and keep coming while others have been dropped by being hit with their first shot from a 9mm. I have watched combatants fight for minutes after being shot with multiple .308 rounds and I have seen a single .223 turn their lights out instantaneously.

After seeing many different scenarios play out I have come to believe that the best weapon is a well skilled and practiced marksman and this is why after all the guns I own and have owned I was exited after I spent some time with the Blackout. A gun that is capable of stealth when needed and when the shit hits the fan can change with a magazine into a round that is just as capable as the one that has killed more people in the last 30 years than any other.

If you are a gun guy and can't see the capabilities that this gun brings to the fight then you are just obtuse or protecting your own sandbox.

85gr tsx at 2450??????  I think he meant more like 2950.....

If you look back at Swat_Dude's original post that is from a 7.5" barrel.

gotcha and thanks.....

You definitely have a point here.  Muzzle blast and flash can be a significant hindrance to combat effectiveness, particularly with short barreled carbines.  To be fair, though, a suppressor on a supersonic cartridge will mitigate these issues quite well.  I've actually taken to wearing a set of electronic range ear muffs when doing building entries with my 11.5" 5.56 SBR because I know if I light that off inside a building it will cause permanent hearing damage to unprotected ears.  I find that to be a better solution than a suppressor because I don't add the weight and length of the suppressor and I'm OK with the noise deafening my opponent.  I use a good flash hider so, while it doesn't completely eliminate flash, the flash isn't blinding even from my 11.5".

As to the use of the 220gr subsonic, I'm not convinced it is a consistent enough performer for defensive use.  Even the 168gr SMK at 2600fps is inconsistent if you look at the testing and Sniper data from the FBI and Dr Roberts.  The 220 is of the same contruction but much slower and given that it won't deform or fragment it poses a significant overpenetration risk.  



A reliable 6.8SPC subsonic AR has actually been done.  Granted there were trade offs (there always are) but it is possible, if impractical.  Even if it could be done easily and with the same advantages that the 300BLK has (easily switching back and forth) I would still not recommend the 6.8SPC subsonics for serious use.  



My point was simply that there is always something bigger/faster/better but you pay a price for it, normally in terms of recoil and weight.  The same thing applies to a .308 in the AR platforms.  Of course the .308 has better terminal performance, and it has been conclusively proven, but that isn't part of this discussion because the OP was about two rounds specifically designed for the smaller, lighter AR15 platform.  As for bringing in expense and compatibility, it has already been discussed.  I pointed out in previous posts in this thread that the advantage there is without question on the side of the 300BLK.

For the record, the 220SMK isn't the biggest bullet that the 300BLK can fire.  I routinely load the 240gr SMK and, if you are lucky, you can find some 250gr SMK's (they are no longer produced).  I also suspect that as time goes on we'll see more bullets in the 240-250gr range for this caliber.  When limited by the speed of sound the only way to increase energy and momentum is by adding bullet weight.



You say here that you "will not venture to guess which one has better terminal ballistics over the proven TSX" but a few posts back you said, "there are multiple rifles out there that will beat the "terminal performance" of your 85 gr 6.8 shot at 2450fps." and then listed the .510 Whisper and .458 SOCOM as two of them.  From this post (which is much better than your last one) it would seem you have some knowledge about terminal ballistics so I think it is safe to assume you know that energy is not, by itself, an accurate indication of how a bullet will perform on target with regard to terminal performance.  That is all I was getting at, energy alone is only 1 small piece of the puzzle.

For the record, the 85gr TSX at 2450 fps has 1133 ft-lbs of energy.  The 750gr .510 Whisper has 1665 ft-lbs and the 600gr .458 SOCOM has 1332 ft-lbs.  I don't know if the .510 and .458 can accomplish 1000 fps from a 7.5" barrel but if so these numbers would be a fair comparison of energy alone.  If they require a 16", the 85gr TSX at 2900fps has 1587 ft-lbs which is definitely in the same ballpark.  The 220SMK at 1000 fps has 488 ft-lbs.

I forgot to mention that if you read up on psychological affects during conflict there is strong evidence to suggest that noise is a benefit.  Grossman's "On Killing" talks about this quite a bit.  Looking back at the dawn of the use of firearms in warfare armies with muskets routinely defeated armies using the long bow despite the fact that, at the time, the long bow had a higher fire rate, was more accurate, was less bulky, and was less expensive.  Much of this is attributed to the intimidation of facing thundering vollies of gunfire which had a much more unsettling effect than the quiet release of arrows.  

Research into Police action shootings indicates that a large percentage of people incapacitated during a gunfight are incapacitated by psychological factors rather than physiological ones.  I'm not suggesting we rely on these effects alone, absolutely not actually, but it is an interesting point in the quiet subsonic vs loud supersonic debate.  

As a counterpoint, I think if the mission is one where a shooter will be firing subsonic suppressed rounds from a concealed position that has a psychological effect all its own.  It would be very difficult to determine where the rounds were coming from, making it nearly impossible to counter.  That is the kind of tactical advantage I see suppressed subsonics bringing to the table but that won't be a common situation in LE or self defense situations.  

Shooting pigs at night using NVG's, however, is another matter.

Kicking in doors and defending your bedroom sounds all cool and ninja-like until you have one of those 220 matchkings come back at ya....

Another excellent point.  Non-deforming bullets are much more likely to riccochet.

Seriously.  The OP has left the building.

He posted three times this entire thread: twice he said he wanted to build a suppressed SBR on an AR platform, even including a photo of the AAC Honeybadger in 300BLK as what he wants to build.  He said that performance beyond 100yds was not an issue for this build.

My suggestion at this point is for the OP to go over to the 300BLK forum, where he can get answers to the questions he actually asked from people who have the most experience building and actually using these fun ARs.

Of course, the OP probably already figured that out on his own 3 pages ago...

You took my comment out of context. What you should understand I was saying was that the subsonic round is not worth any reduction in decibels over the .300 blk supersonic round supressed due to the massive reduction in performance in using a rifle round and sub-optimal velocities for the design of that bullet.

DUPLICATE POST

Sorry, didn't read far enough. Asked and answered.

You mean like this? I own many a platrorm and calibers. I believe I am realistic about the advantages and disadvantages of each one. I still believe my REC7 and MSAR in 6.8 have advantages over my .308. I am not a fan boy of any of them. They are each tools that have their niche. The .300 blk is fine platform when realistic expectations are maintained. I agree with your points. While anecdotal evidence of the 220 is fine, we need calibrated, ballistic gel tests to compare specific bullets on a level playing field. My guess is the 220 blk will over penetrate leaving exactly a .308 inch through and through hole with very little tissue disruption. Just my guess, but I would definitely welcome the ACTUAL experimental data on the 220 gr bullet traveling at 1000 fps. Emotion has no place in this discussion. Hard evidence does.



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Well, I wasted my time reading this thread. I've been tossing around the question of which larger-caliber AR I wanted. I had been obsessed with the 300BLK and still prefer a .30 caliber but I was hoping to learn more about the 6.8SPC and what everybody thought of it. Unfortunately you cannot learn anything from arguing knuckleheads.

Just because I don't see the same things you do doesn't make me an idiot. Here it is spelled out, free from emotion, hand waving and bandwagon psychosis...

Supersonic load terminal effectiveness: 6.8 wins due to superior terminal peformance projectiles and more case volume. 300blk does allow loading of shorter, heavier bullets due to the larger diameter, allowing slightly more case volume than one would expect for the same OAL, but this is not enough to make up for the reduced diameter of the 5.56 parent case. Recent improvements in 6.8 barrels including 4R polygonal rifling, improved chamber geometry and the move to 1/11 twist have squeezed an additional 50 to 150 fps without overpressure signs.  

Supersonic load range: 6.8 wins due to higher case volume (resulting in higher muzzle velocity). Lower expansion velocity of the 6.8 Barnes 95 gr TTSX loading extends the effectivenes of the caliber out past 400 yards.

Price of admission: .300blk wins due to only a new barrel needed. Does not need proprietary magazines or bolt. Preferred by reloaders due to ability to use 5.56 brass. Please note that for the non- reloader, a case can be made that the cost of match grade or performance ammo is a wash. A 5.56 upper using bulk 5.56 ammo can be implemented for training purposes.

Shortened Barrel performance: I will call this a tie although the 6.8 will again have a slight advantage due to higher case volume.

SUPersonic Suppressed Performance: Tie, with the comments above in Supersonic load and range comments taken into account.

Subsonic Supressed Performance: .300 blk wins this although I don't know that I would call the current subsonic loading a "win". Development of a low velocity expanding 7.62 round, i.e. 600 to 1000 fps would greatly improve the advantage of .300 blk over 6.8 to handle heavy, subsonic suppressed loads. At this time, the use of the 220 grain load for LE or HD use cannot be recommended until more low velocity ballistic gel testing is done.

More than you ever wanted to know about 6.8 here...

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?1598-Remington-6.8-SPC-Guide.

I would be more than happy to answer any questions you may have about the 6.8, and I would refer you to the 68forums where there is no nonsense. Also, I would suggest that you look for the the 300BLK specific forum if there is one as well. Not enough is known at this time on projectile's behavior concerning the specialized .30 cal heavy sub bullets specific to the 300BLK. I would like to see more personally. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to get someone to test them out from an suppressed SBR in gel. The actual numbers are easy to get, but the expansion/tumbling etc of the bullet needs to be tested in gel for any real performance claims to be either proven or disproven. Testing in housing materials/glass/steel/clothing etc needs to be done.

I love my 6.8. It is an incredible caliber for it's intended purpose. If done right, and I only know of one that is right, it will cycle subs/supers suppressed and without, from the same gun, with just a change of the setting on an adjustable gas block. It isn't good with under 1000fps bullets though, as they suffer from the same problems as the 30cal bullets, and worse, are lighter.


For the OP, to play with a super quiet gun, and not hunting over 150 yards, it may be a fine solution.

Hey I found some comparison gel shots!  They are for 300 Whisper but Hornady says they are compatible with the 300 blk. Kind of proves my point that I would stick with the supersonic rounds unless extreme silence is needed.

http://www.hornady.com/new-products/300-whisper

My point was exactly that there is no point comparing the 6.8 and the .300 BLK.  They are different cartridges with different performance envelopes.



Some claim that 6.8 is 'better,' and in some ways it is.



Some claim that .300 BLK is 'better,' and in some ways it is.



Some claim that the .300 BLK is pointless, because one could own two rifles that each handle their respective roles (supersonic and subsonic) as well or better.  That's a ridiculous statement.



I think that when it comes to calibers, one thing is clear:  People like to argue for the sake of argument.



 

Militarized Police_Dude, here is a link to 300 Blackout ballistic gelatin tests on 300aacblackout.com:

http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/300AACBlackout06OCT2010.pdf

I love it!!! I am an Oathkeeper so don't think I don't get your meaning.

LOL. I hoped you'd get I was playin' around.  Great to hear you are an oath keeper brother!

Oops. Double tap...

No.

All I'm reading is "Go .45, its a better option then 300BLACKOUT."


Which of course....it isn't.

No offense but maybe you should re-read the thread. The .45 was used for comparison purposes to make a point regarding subsonic performance of the current 220 gr offering.

I understood the reference to .45 as a way to point out that having two guns (an AR-15 chambered in 6.8 SPC II for supersonic loads, and an HK UMP chambered in .45 ACP for subsonic loads) is preferable to having an AR-15 chambered in .300 BLK (which can shoot both supersonic and subsonic loads with a mag change.)
To wit:






 





 
 

I read the thread. Perhaps you should grasp what was be asking from the very beginning rather then throwing out information that has very little relevance to what was being inquired about to begin with.

The original question posed of course being, which one would you go with.....

6.8 SPC or 300 BLACKOUT?

Do you see any relevance or point on insertion of 45 ACP? I don't.

SC-Texas nailed it in his first post.




Personally, I believe 6.8 SPC is an excellent round. However, it isn't for me nor will it ever be. For a variety of reasons. Number one being ammunition and cost. As much as I shoot, that's a HUGE point of interest for me. Other factors weigh in my decsions for a rifle caliber are typically:

• Commercial Ammunition Price....followed by reloading options


• Accessory pricing. (Magazines, etc)


• Suppressor Capable


• Spare parts (bolts, extractors, etc)


• Ballistics

The OP went on to further elaborate as to what his intent was etc, which of course allows us in the know the ability to provide more information of a concise nature.



So far you haven't exactly demonstrated you actually are here to assist the OP. For me, 300 BLACKOUT makes a ton of sense. 30 cal round used in a common themed weapon in my personal armory, 5.56 weapons. It also fits the bill and requirements the OP has when it comes to price of entry etc. Have I jumped on the band wagon of 300 BLACKOUT? Nope. It's high on the list but today I shoot hell of a lot of 7.62x39 and today, for me....it would make far more sense investing in a 7.62x39 upper.

300 BLACKOUT is very much in its infancy and is seeing development around bullet design that can/could easily bring it into its proper place when it comes to adequate terminal ballistics. A few seconds spent searching for even current gel test could address your less then genuine query earlier on the topic of gel.


Your point....isn't.

To the OP.....considering what you are trying to do....I'd go 300 BLACKOUT.

Really?





Did that. The only pic I could find of a heavy subsonic 300 blk was on the hornady website which I posted up. Can you please do your "quick search" and point me to the wealth of ballistic gel tests on the .300 blk subsonic rounds??

300 BLK defeats body armor?

I thought at subsonic speeds it wouldn't, or was the reference to normal loads?

First, never did I indicate there was a "wealth" of it. Second, you are the only individual in this thread who is hung up on ballistic gel tests on the 300 BLACKOUT subsonic rounds. Were that the entire core and crux of the OP, I'm sure he would have simply asked that....don't you think? He has been articulate enough in his wants and desire so far.


Is it of interest or concern for a potential buyer? Absolutely! It however is not the entire enchilada when comes to deciding what works best for the user. There is more then enough "proof" of game harvested with a subsonic load already available. As In have already stated....the 300 BLACKOUT is still in its infancy and is being addressed with appropriate bullets.



That was back 10-13-10 and we have seen several developments since. I'm pretty sure you have already read/heard mention the likes of Outlaw State Bullets etc.

http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=78224

I have. But I have only seen anecdotal evidence on the effectiveness of this round, not actual ballistic gel testing so relative performance can be assessed. I also read some other stories on the 300blk in actual hunting applications and I wouldn't actually call this stellar, or even humane, performance.

4th or 5th post down...
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=64503&page=5

I guess it bears repeating, and is pertinent to the OP's question, comparing 300blk to 6.8, with the less than optimal performance of the heavy subsonic load removed from the equation, the 6.8 offers better supersonic performance and more bullet options right now... period. You will have to decide if the extra performance 6.8 offers is worth the additional costs of proprietary mags and a new bolt. That's all I am saying.

You ever hear of cut and pasting to add info to a thread? In case there was any confusion, I'm not taking credit for these points, except for calling attention to the dismal subsonic performance. Just adding them to the discussion.

I can understand the mag issue as I have several PRI 6.8 mags. They are no different from the HK 5.56 mags, both are nice and if you prefer the HK mags for your 5.56, you are going to pay a nice price for them. Yes I have HK and cheap Lancer 5.56 mags, I can't say which ones I like the best though. If price were the issue, Lancer would win.

The bolt is what gets me. Are the 300WTF users really swaping their bolts from a 5.56 upper to their WTF upper? I mean if you already have two uppers, is buying another bolt going to break the bank?

Its the fact that the ar bolt is easy and cheap to find. They also tend to last longer before replacement then the bolts of other caliber conversions.

The only real benefit I see to the .300 is the fact that it is quieter, but I don't see much benefit to that personally. The benefit of a longer lasting bolt doesn't mean anything to me. If the cheapest I can find ammo for is $20/box, then having to replace a $100 bolt after firing $5000 worth of ammo isn't going to phase me.

" 6.8 offers bette.... more bullet options"

This is absolutely incorrect!  There are many more different types, weights and performance level 30 (0.308) cal bullets made by the the various bullet manufactures than 0.270 call (0.277).  For example Sierra Bullets offers:

110 gr 3 different types:  RN, FMJ, & HP.

125 gr 2 different types: SPT (prohunters), HP/FN (30-30 bullet)

135 gr 2 different types:  SPT (prohunters), and SPBT MK

150  gr 6 different types:  FN & RN  (both 30-30 bullets), FMJBT, SPT prohunter, SPBT gameking, HPBT matchatchking,

155 gr Palma matchking

165 gr 2 different types: SPBT gameking, HPBT gameking,

168 gr HPBT matchking

175 gr HPBT matchking

180 gr 3 different types HPBT matchking, SPBT gameking, SP prohunters

190 HPBT matchking

200gr 2 different types HPBT matchking SPBT gameking

220 gr HPBT matchking

240 gr HPBT matchking

This is just the list from ONE bullet manufacture.  If you look at the offerings form Hornaday, Speer, Berger, Barnes etc.... you will see that they all offer many different types of 30 cal bullets.... Way more in 30 cal than their 270 cal offerings.  

All of the Sierra bullets that I listed can be driven to super sonic velocities in the 300 BLK and the other 300-221 Fireball variants (300 Whisper etc...).

All of the Sierra bullets that I listed can be driven to super sonic velocities in the 300 BLK and the other 300-221 Fireball variants (300 Whisper etc...). I have pushed the 150-155 gr bullets to 2050 fps, 165-168 gr bullets to 1850-1900fps, 175-180 to 1800 fps.

I keep reading on this thread about the 220's dismal performance.

Dismal compared to a high velocity fragmenting rifle round?

Yes.


Non lethal under performer......are you serious?

There are tons of people that have killed both deer and hog, all man sized, with single shots from 220 grain subs. Are you guys seriously saying that blowing .30 cal holes through things isn't lethal. Throw in the supersonic performance along with future offerings that you KNOW are going to be coming and I can't see the downside.

Yes I'm serious, and not only with comparing it to the supersonic loads. It is dismal compared to an HST .45 230gr +P or any of the .45 Barnes offerings fired from a 5 inch barreled pistol. Did you happen to look a the link to M4carbine? I wouldn't say that a deer runing 250 yards after being shot is actually great performance. That may be fine for hunting, but for a LE or HD load, immediate incapacitation (or as close as possible to immed. incap.) is the only option IMO.

I keep hearing about future rounds. The OP wasn't talking about purchasing an upper "in the future".

Come on guys, this is a .308 bullet in a Remington .223 case. It is not capable of miracles.

On page 4 TimW list (36) 6.8 bullets that are within the optimal weight range for the 6.8 cartridge. You do realize that the 300blk is limited by the .223 remington case volume and AR Mag OAL.

All of the bullets you listed after about 120 grain can be loaded but with reduced case volume=reduced muzzle velocity. Some of the 7.62 bullets you listed are excellent performers and might even do great at the reduced .300blk muzzle velocities, but what will they do at 50 yards? 100 yards?

Have you considered that even the .648 BC Hornady 208 gr .300 whisper load at 1020fps has a 48 inch drop at 200 yards with a 50 yard zero?

The 220gr Sierra Match King you list under the same conditions has dropped 25 inches at 150 yards and 50 inches at 200 yards.

If you need immediate incapacitation almost garuenteed, why use subsonics anyway?

If you can go supersonic.....why bother with all these other calibers? The solution has existed for many years.....308 beats them all hands down. I can carry a 16 inch AR styled rifle that doesnt weigh much more and score hits out to 1000 yards+, I can get ammo cheaper, have better terminal ballistics and better access to reloading components.

.308 kills 6.8 for less money.

A hunter however can benefit from them and there is no need to drop a deer instantly......it's not gonna fight back.

I agree wholeheartedly!

I own both a .308 and several 6.8's. My answer to your question is: weight, magazine capacity, and over penetration issues with .308 in an LE or HD application. I'll say it again for the hundreth time, the .300blk is a better option than 5.56. Most bullets are designed with specific velocity ranges in mind. To pretend that you can just cram every .308 bullet into a 5.56 case and have it perform properly is preposterous! This same velocity issue can work in your favor though too if you remain realistic in your expectations of the .300blk. The Hornday 110gr TAP round when driven at .308 velocities is an under-performer due to reduced penetration. This same bullet driven at .300blk velocities has VERY GOOD peformance, producing a very respectable wound channel and exceeding 12 inches of penetration.

If your main use is hunting, why not just go with a 12 inch.308 AR-10 and suppress it. There are models that weigh less than 8.5 lbs empty without optic.

It's simple,

If you're sticking with AR15 sized platform, the .300 BO is a no brainer. It takes only a barrel change, no proprietary magazines or bolt, ammo is going to be more readily available and the performance difference of the 6.8 doesn't justify giving up subsonic fun.

A .300 BO will kill anything I'd be hunting with that sized platform just as dead as the 6.8 plus I get to have fun with subsonics.

Anyone who doesn't understand how fun that is will never get it, no matter how many times it's debated.

This.

Yes the 6.8 is more powerful, but I never considered it.  The initial development troubles really killed my interest.  I think the popularity of 300 Blackout will end up being pretty huge because of the ease of conversion and ammo availability. My 70 year old dad, who has never showed any interest in any AR caliber other than 5.56 is now having a 300 Blackout pistol built because of the improved performance out of an 8" barrel over 5.56.

And if I want further distance out of the AR15 platform I'll just go with the Grendel and beat the 6.8 in that category as well.

Like the previous poster said, the 6.8s initial launch problems and lack of momentum in the industry, coupled with other and better options now.....the 6.8 I think will fade out.

Not even close. The 6.8 is here to stay, and in fact, has closed the gap in the long distance game significantly over the last year or two, especially last year. As it sits now, you need to be out around 600 yards before you see more than a couple inches difference in trajectory and more than 6-10 inches with a 10mph crosswind with top loads from each camp.  I shoot my 6.8 out to 750 yards and stay within 1 moa or better with 4 loads so far, and working on a 5th. The 6.8 is the highest selling caliber behind the 5.56, and new higher b.c. bullets are being made at a fast pace. The 6.5G is here to stay as well, and has secured 3rd place solidly. Cheaper 6.5G ammo is coming on line from Russia now, and Tula just announced that they will be releasing cheap 6.8 ammo this year in a deal with Barrett.

If you are hunting out to 500 yards, either the 6.8 or the 6.5G will do almost the same thing on the same game, although the terminal performance from some of the 6.8 projectiles is some better so far. With new 6.5G loads, that will change and they will be more equal. If you want game further than that, you need to go bigger than either of them, and a .308 in a carbine won't really do it unless you specifically load for lower than standard velocity projectiles that will open at those reduced velocities. Been there done that with a 16" LR308. I shot that rifle at the same distances but also out to 1000 yards.


If you are target shooting out to 500-600 yards, either will do it. Past that, a real nice set up with a 20-24 inch Grendel is great if you want to stay with a 5.56 platform. The .300 BLK isn't even in the same ballpark with either the 6.8 or the 6.5G with supersonic loads. It is a 150-200 yard gun at best. With subs, it wins in reliability and ease of setup and noise. The outlaw bullets and others designed to expand at subsonic velocities still have issues as far as I'm concerned. They haven't been around long enough to get good data yet, and with all of the buzz over the .300BLK right now, demand will likely outstrip supply. It has questions as to whether or not it would be a good HD round due to questions of reliable expansion. More data will speak to that and those questions will be answer in time.

Right now, what the .300 BLK offers to a shooter, is a quiet, reliable, fun to shoot suppressed subsonic carbine that uses cheap and plentiful 5.56 cases and mags and bolts, and that will with the switch of ammo be good on game out to maybe 200 yards. That is what some people are looking for. So for them, it's perfect. It works well from an SBR suppressed as well.

If you aren't looking to suppress this thing, or you want to hunt beyond 200 yards, look elsewhere. If you're looking for an SBR that isn't going to be both  suppressed and run subs, the 6.8 wins in that game as well.

I'm seriously not trying to be a smart-ass, but I typically don't place fun higher in priority than terminal effictiveness which considering a rifle purchase. My range toys left my arsenal about the same time the economy tanked.