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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 25 Meter BUIS/irons/rds challenge, show my how much better you can shoot than I can........ (Page 3 of 7)
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I was cutting some trees today opening the lane of my shooting range a bit more and figured Id give this a go while the sun was setting. I had recently zeroed a Matech on my a4 but decided I like the carry handle better so I had to readjust the front sight (matech POI was way lower than the carry handle). I zero my ar15 irons and red dots at 50 for 50/200. My range with target at 25m https://i.imgur.com/rySVMpe.jpg Colt AR15A4, Okay Ind. 20rd mag, IMI M193, cabelas shooting bags. https://i.imgur.com/FLD4BoY.jpg Target was initially set at 50 meters. I fired three to the middle to see where I was hitting and adjusted down one click in elevation. I then fired three to the bottom left and kept elevation as is and adjusted one click left in windage. Once I was happy with this, I moved the target to 25m. Bottom right is 10 shots at 25 meters fired at a moderate pace. https://i.imgur.com/qJDk8io.jpg 10 rounds IMI m193 https://i.imgur.com/uHRouR9.jpg I figured Id also do a quick grouping with my Mak90 same front rest minus rear bag with tula FMJ and magpul 20rd mag https://i.imgur.com/rnNG3XR.jpg 10rds 7.62x39 FMJ 25m https://i.imgur.com/nfY1kFE.jpg What did you NOT like about the Matech that made you want to switch back? I mean it's about 7-8 ounces lighter than a carry handle I would imagine..... But I always wonder about the aperture size and something about a rubber grommet to make it smaller that everyone loses???? I've never had one to know... But that doesn't sound very practical to me. |
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Quoted: Great post and shooting! What did you NOT like about the Matech that made you want to switch back? I mean it's about 7-8 ounces lighter than a carry handle I would imagine..... But I always wonder about the aperture size and something about a rubber grommet to make it smaller that everyone loses???? I've never had one to know... But that doesn't sound very practical to me. I do like the Matech behind the aimpoint on my m4a1 block 1 though, they are nice sights. Good aperature and neat easy adjustments. Its interesting to me how far down i had to run the front sight post after switching from carry handle to matech on both carbine and rifle. |
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Cool thread OP. Hopefully I'll be able to get to the range and post some results in the near future. In the interim, I've got this pic from an actual 25m zeroing session quite a while back. First, the details... • Seated • Front of the rail rested on my pistol range bag • 16" Bushmaster XM15 • 120 rounds of AE XM855 (one of those little green plastic faux ammo cans) • About 90 of the rounds were shot with a Sightmark M-Spec (IIRC); with the remaining 30 being irons (traditional A2 FSB and Flip BUIS) 
Nothing spectacular, but almost a one hole group 
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Quoted: Great post and shooting! What did you NOT like about the Matech that made you want to switch back? I mean it's about 7-8 ounces lighter than a carry handle I would imagine..... But I always wonder about the aperture size and something about a rubber grommet to make it smaller that everyone loses???? I've never had one to know... But that doesn't sound very practical to me. |
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Rifle is a Colt RO933. Trijicon MRO. Ammo is Q3131 Magazine prone. The target spot is 3". Rangebuddy app tells me this is a 1.55" group. Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Quoted: Thanks! Im not sure exactly, maybe its the overall look of a 20" rifle with a carry handle vs a buis. The a4 will have an acog on there before long though. Marines dont generally have a buis so im not gonna keep one of mine. I do like the Matech behind the aimpoint on my m4a1 block 1 though, they are nice sights. Good aperature and neat easy adjustments. Its interesting to me how far down i had to run the front sight post after switching from carry handle to matech on both carbine and rifle. 
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Cool thread OP. Hopefully I'll be able to get to the range and post some results in the near future. In the interim, I've got this pic from an actual 25m zeroing session quite a while back. First, the details... • Seated • Front of the rail rested on my pistol range bag • 16" Bushmaster XM15 • 120 rounds of AE XM855 (one of those little green plastic faux ammo cans) • About 90 of the rounds were shot with a Sightmark M-Spec (IIRC); with the remaining 30 being irons (traditional A2 FSB and Flip BUIS) http://i.cubeupload.com/lteRPr.jpeg Nothing spectacular, but almost a one hole group |
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Rifle is a Colt RO933. Trijicon MRO. Ammo is Q3131 Magazine prone. The target spot is 3". Rangebuddy app tells me this is a 1.55" group. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/43129/20171213_141821-390668.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/43129/20171213_141031-390669.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/43129/20171213_141020-390670.JPG I know people might say OMG 6 MOA. But using the bipod as a rest is just not as solid as bags. Unless your Samuse I guess. LOL. Plus, I don't find Q3131 particularly accurate. Serviceable and clean, but not overly accurate in my AR's. Q3131A was better. IMHO. |
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Quoted: Not bad using just the bipod as a rest! I know people might say OMG 6 MOA. But using the bipod as a rest is just not as solid as bags. Unless your Samuse I guess. LOL. Plus, I don't find Q3131 particularly accurate. Serviceable and clean, but not overly accurate in my AR's. Q3131A was better. IMHO. |
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Quoted: I keep saying that. But yeah, that's what I meant. Mag as a monopod.... I've got quite a bit of Q3131 too. But from now on I'm buying XM193. Or try something else. |
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Great idea on this challenge, BTW. This is my work gun with our practice ammo...I will be heading out to the range tomorrow with my Noveske Recce and 69gr SMK and my M16A4 clone with M855A1. |
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Will you test the M855A1 at a longer distance? Guys in the reloading subforum were getting 2-2.5 MOA average at 100yds I think. Already have. My best 5rd group with irons at 200m has been 3.994", fired magazine prone, out of an FN M16A4. I'll upload pics when I remember where they are |
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Wow. That's good stuff. You ever run across Mk318? If so how did that do? Thanks for your contribution in here!!!! I have to admit I've only shot at 100 a couple of times this last year. And it's been a long time since I've shot farther than that. I'm more focused using my time with pistols and then adding in some Carbine at the pistol range. I still think you can work on fundamentals at closer range. I think if we're using our AR's as civilians it's going to be closer anyways. At least in a self defense scenario. But hunting is a different story. I need to get out and do some 200 yard + shooting soon. |
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Wow. That's good stuff. You ever run across Mk318? If so how did that do? Thanks for your contribution in here!!!! I have to admit I've only shot at 100 a couple of times this last year. And it's been a long time since I've shot farther than that. I'm more focused using my time with pistols and then adding in some Carbine at the pistol range. I still think you can work on fundamentals at closer range. I think if we're using our AR's as civilians it's going to be closer anyways. At least in a self defense scenario. But hunting is a different story. I need to get out and do some 200 yard + shooting soon. I routinely practice out to 400 with irons and 500 with ACOG with my A4, and out to 300 with my work carbine. |
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Great idea on this challenge, BTW. This is my work gun with our practice ammo...I will be heading out to the range tomorrow with my Noveske Recce and 69gr SMK and my M16A4 clone with M855A1. |
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I got an AP Pro this week so took it out to zero at 50y. After finishing that I brought it back to 25y (75' measured with tape measure) to do this challenge.
Attached File 1" squares, 30 rounds split between 3 aiming points. Think the bottom right just has like 6-8 on it, I lost count trying to focus on my groups. Attached File My shooting position, just a tarp with my shooting backpack as a rest Attached File 14.5 1/7 CL 5.56 BCM mid-length Geisselle SSA-E Aimpoint PRO IMI 55gr M193 Center Ind. tan follower mag VCAS sling (not used) @JJREA I forgot how shitty M193 shoots. My handloads while nothing too special put the military ball to shame. Was getting about 2" groups at 50y with 193. Didnt bring any 855. |
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Great POST!!! Good shootin. And I've been wanting a Mini RDS on my AR for a long time too. How do you like it? Don't have a lot of extra money right now so.... I wasn't even sure I wanted a RDS at all because for some reason I didn't like my AP Pro all that much and sold it. But I tried a tiny little Fieldsport Micro and that I like. And so far it's been shooting well for me. But I think the FF in that Burris mount is a good way to go. I've even debated trying a FF2 just because they're cheaper....... Primary Arms has them on sale. But I'm also tempted to buy their Advanced Micro. Anyways... Point is, I have RDS envy of you.  I'm not sure if you saw that test in the Optics forum but the Fastfire 3 did very well on having very little parallax shift when moving your head in different positions behind it.
I have feeling you cheated us by 2-3 yards though. Is that 25 yards?
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Ok, did this one again and this time I brought some xm193. Shooting from the picnic table as usual, though I put the targets out at 25m this time (rather than yds). I used my HD gun, an LMT MRP with 14.5" barrel that has an AAC mount pinned on. This gun has the factory GI trigger in it, not real nice...but it'll do the job it's intended for. I shot the 50yd non-magnified optic category of the 1moa-all-day challenge with this upper on a different lower and got an average of 1.584 moa, so this barrel is a good shooter IMHO.
14.5" LMT MRP Aimpoint H1 (4moa dot) Troy iron sights Federal XM193 ammo Attached File Using the H1, group is about 15/16": Attached File Using the iron sights, group is again about 15/16": Attached File And I had to try the reloads: Attached File |
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I also brought a pistol build I just completed and shot a group with the XM193. This has a 10.5" barrel with a Griffin M4SD-K can, and SBT PDW brace. Just shot the one group using the RMR sight.
10.5" BA barrel with M4SD-K suppressor Trijicon RMR 3.25moa dot Federal XM193 ammo Attached File Looks like right at a 1" group: Attached File |
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I also brought a pistol build I just completed and shot a group with the XM193. This has a 10.5" barrel with a Griffin M4SD-K can, and SBT PDW brace. Just shot the one group using the RMR sight. 10.5" BA barrel with M4SD-K suppressor Trijicon RMR 3.25moa dot Federal XM193 ammo https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/409179/2017-12-17_13-393835.JPG Looks like right at a 1" group: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/409179/10-393834.JPG HighPowerRifleBrony: Would be interesting to see. I plan on taking my A2 20"er next time and giving her a go. 6-7 pound GI trigger. Barrel shoots relatively well with certain ammo..... |
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Great post. I was gonna say that bottom right one is getting into the 1/2" but it's not 10 rounds. BUZZER. 
Good shootin. Don't see a middy with regular handguards too much round here. I dig it. |
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Iron sights here. Have to get my HD guns {w/ RDS} up to post as well. Maybe Saturday.
In the meantime, here ya go. I know they are handloads but one group was shot with mixed cases, and the bullets are Windeners surplus {make???}, a handicap needing none other.
They are my plinkers. Snow, clear conditions. In the 20's. Seup is as in the pics. Tire gives a little squish. 1) Anderson lower, PSA 20" A2-barrel configuration upper, ArmaLite National Match carry handle/sight, LaRue MBT trigger. 
Even a nickel in there!
 2) PSA lower, PSA Middy pencil barrel upper, PSA carry handle sight, PSA stock trigger. 
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Good shootin.... I'm trying to wrap my head round your pics. I think you double posted each one. But it made it especially confusing with your first gun because both of your groups have the exact same size spread. INYOUREYESISTHATDOUBLEVISION |
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Good shootin.... I'm trying to wrap my head round your pics. I think you double posted each one. But it made it especially confusing with your first gun because both of your groups have the exact same size spread. INYOUREYESISTHATDOUBLEVISION I posted the targets twice each, once without ruler and once with ruler. The two groups shot with the rifle were indeed exactly the same extreme spread. The second one was interesting. I have excellent distance vision, but need reading glasses. So iron sights are more challenging the shorter the barrel is. I got really good windage but strung them in a vertical line. The top of the post on the shorter barrel is fuzzier than the longer barrel. |
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Quoted: LOL. I posted the targets twice each, once without ruler and once with ruler. The two groups shot with the rifle were indeed exactly the same extreme spread. The second one was interesting. I have excellent distance vision, but need reading glasses. So iron sights are more challenging the shorter the barrel is. I got really good windage but strung them in a vertical line. The top of the post on the shorter barrel is fuzzier than the longer barrel.
Rifle sights are pretty darn good to go. I think even with the ghostring the front sight stays pretty clear under fair lighting conditions. Even lower lower light. Which is a really good thing. I would really love a 16" Dissy with an A1 upper. |
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Quoted: Same here my friend, same here. I think if I'm out full sunlight, it's not too bad. But as soon as I go under the cover of something or the light get's lower, it starts getting fuzzier faster. I'm the opposite of you though and can't see far. But have glasses of course. I have to take my glasses off to read stuff when it's like a foot or so away from my eyes. And again, especially in lower light.
Rifle sights are pretty darn good to go. I think even with the ghostring the front sight stays pretty clear under fair lighting conditions. Even lower lower light. Which is a really good thing. I would really love a 16" Dissy with an A1 upper. I recently acquired a Ruger Mini-14 which has been a lot of fun to shoot. Tho it is a carbine, sight radius is within 1/2 inch or so of my 20" bbl upper. Thus, it is as easy for me to use as my rifle. Next year it'll be my "September gun" I'll carry that month. Loaded with 65 grain bullets for grouse and bear if I run into one. |
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Quoted: Yes, hanging the sight out as far as possible is a plus. I recently acquired a Ruger Mini-14 which has been a lot of fun to shoot. Tho it is a carbine, sight radius is within 1/2 inch or so of my 20" bbl upper. Thus, it is as easy for me to use as my rifle. Next year it'll be my "September gun" I'll carry that month. Loaded with 65 grain bullets for grouse and bear if I run into one. |
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Quoted: This one is a gift. They are neat little rifles. |
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Tagging! I'll be zeroing a cheapo PA micro after Christmas, using Wolf Gold Taiwanese M193. I use Arma Dynamics targets for the 50yd IBZ. http://www.arma-dynamics.com/images/red%20dot%2025yd%20mod1%20(ar-15).jpg?crc=505362732 Will post groups when I get around to it. |
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Quoted: I really want to shoot your SHTF challenge, but typically I'm shooting at my 25 meter range and I'd have to pack up and unpack to go to the 100 yard range. Sometimes the 25 meter range is in use and I HAVE to use the 100 yard range. I'm sure that will happen soon and I plan on bringing some of the SHTF targets with me the next few times I go, in case I get over there. I can't guaranty which rifle I will have, but it will most likely be iron sighted. Any rifle will do! |
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Tried this again today with another AR. Same shooting position from picnic table again. Large front bag, small rear bag.
10.5" Ballistic Advantage 5.45x39, with AAC M4-1000 can Primary Arms MD-RB-AD blem version on high mount SBR lower with Hiperfire EDT2 trigger 7n6 Surplus ammo By the way, this was the first 10 shots after putting that PA red dot sight on there. I zeroed it by lining it up with the back up sights (already zeroed), which means you're looking at the dot in the lower 1/3 of the sight window. That's why the group is low and left, but obviously for getting a rough zero on a red dot, this can work. I do it all the time and all red dot sights I've done this with have some shift and need further tweaking if you intend to center the dot in the sight window normally. Target was at 25 meters. Group was right at 0.9". Attached File Here's the rifle: Attached File |
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Nice shooting. Super nice gun. And yeah, I've done that same thing with lining up my RDS with my iron and then just needing a little tweaking beyond that. It works very well Man I like that gun a lot. You still able to find 5.45 for cheap? Or is it vaporware now? I so wanted to own a 5.45 AK at some point. But now they're all like Gold. My son really likes AK's and he's not into AR's at all. And I never bought an AK when prices were more reasonable. I wasn't really interested in them. And then one day I got to shoot a 5.45 krink at the range and oh wow. I was hooked. |
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Nice shooting. Super nice gun. And yeah, I've done that same thing with lining up my RDS with my iron and then just needing a little tweaking beyond that. It works very well Man I like that gun a lot. You still able to find 5.45 for cheap? Or is it vaporware now? I so wanted to own a 5.45 AK at some point. But now they're all like Gold. My son really likes AK's and he's not into AR's at all. And I never bought an AK when prices were more reasonable. I wasn't really interested in them. And then one day I got to shoot a 5.45 krink at the range and oh wow. I was hooked. Since I mentioned it, here's the gun and the target. Attached File Attached File |
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Nice shooting. Super nice gun. And yeah, I've done that same thing with lining up my RDS with my iron and then just needing a little tweaking beyond that. It works very well Man I like that gun a lot. You still able to find 5.45 for cheap? Or is it vaporware now? I so wanted to own a 5.45 AK at some point. But now they're all like Gold. My son really likes AK's and he's not into AR's at all. And I never bought an AK when prices were more reasonable. I wasn't really interested in them. And then one day I got to shoot a 5.45 krink at the range and oh wow. I was hooked. 5.45 ammo It's not cheap cheap like it was 6-7 years ago, but it's not as expensive as 5.56. One of the fun guns that I'm considering is a 5.45 using a DSA upper, on one of my blem PSA lowers (I think I might actually have too many of those lol) |
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Quoted: SG Ammo has Golden Tiger and Barnaul for $0.23 and $0.24 per round. 5.45 ammo It's not cheap cheap like it was 6-7 years ago, but it's not as expensive as 5.56. One of the fun guns that I'm considering is a 5.45 using a DSA upper, on one of my blem PSA lowers (I think I might actually have too many of those lol) I don't miss my SAR1/7.62x39 rifle one bit, but that old SAR2/5.45 was NOT a gun I ever should have parted with! |
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This is worth looking at...very interesting....
Here are two more. I shot them here and then also for the PSA Challenge. I used the RDS optic, non-magnifying. https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Position-Shooting-Association-Challenge-All-Rifles-Welcome-Only-Shooters-May-Apply-/5-1950750/ Here are the carbines: Top: Ruger AR556 w/ Aimpoint PRO optic. 
First up, the Ruger AR556. 
Now...the Smith. This one was my field rifle for some years where we had lots of adventures. Had various scopes on it and I've killed lots and lots of coyote bait w/ it. Then it got moved to a HD rifle, with the Vortex Sparc AR on it. First group shows not very good performance. I then noticed that the weapon light was rubbing on the board in front of the sandbag. So I used a thicker bag and Voila! Nuthin. Same group size. The rifle must really not like LC M855, for observe the final group below, shot at 200 meters from sitting, elbows rested on knees. The group at 25 meters makes for 4.367 MOA shot FROM A REST. The 200 meter group, also 10 shots, makes for 1.941 MOA. Which give me pause for thought about the SHTF/PSA Challenge, as those last 5 shots to make 15 really take a toll on the precision. 
And here, at 200 meters: 
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Quoted: Thanks! I don't know if there's any 5.45 for cheap, honestly. I starting buying 7n6 when it was about $100 or so for a tin and kept buying it right up until the import ban. I sold a little bit several months ago for $200 per tin but since I stacked it pretty deep I don't have to go looking for it. I also like AK's in 5.45, much more than 7.62 or 5.56, and I have a 5.45 krink that I love to shoot. I actually shot a group with it yesterday (PA RDS and a nice chin weld!), and it was about 1.25" using the 7n6 ammo. People don't give that 7n6 the credit it deserves, it's really good ammo for the money even at $200 per tin. It's corrosive and so it can require a little more effort but during the cooler months of the year I usually don't even have to rinse the guns out to keep them from rusting (summer is different story, gotta keep the humidity down). Since I mentioned it, here's the gun and the target. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/409179/2017-12-23_13-398786.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/409179/2017-12-23_13-398787.JPG |
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Quoted: SG Ammo has Golden Tiger and Barnaul for $0.23 and $0.24 per round. 5.45 ammo It's not cheap cheap like it was 6-7 years ago, but it's not as expensive as 5.56. One of the fun guns that I'm considering is a 5.45 using a DSA upper, on one of my blem PSA lowers (I think I might actually have too many of those lol) |
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This is worth looking at...very interesting.... Here are two more. I shot them here and then also for the PSA Challenge. I used the RDS optic, non-magnifying. https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Position-Shooting-Association-Challenge-All-Rifles-Welcome-Only-Shooters-May-Apply-/5-1950750/ Here are the carbines: Top: Ruger AR556 w/ Aimpoint PRO optic. https://s5.postimg.org/jjaw9r2k7/Range_Day_AR556and_SWMP1512232017_151_1024x576.jpg First up, the Ruger AR556. https://s5.postimg.org/3l26jl5rb/Range_Day_AR556and_SWMP1512232017_157_576x1024.jpg Now...the Smith. This one was my field rifle for some years where we had lots of adventures. Had various scopes on it and I've killed lots and lots of coyote bait w/ it. Then it got moved to a HD rifle, with the Vortex Sparc AR on it. First group shows not very good performance. I then noticed that the weapon light was rubbing on the board in front of the sandbag. So I used a thicker bag and Voila! Nuthin. Same group size. The rifle must really not like LC M855, for observe the final group below, shot at 200 meters from sitting, elbows rested on knees. The group at 25 meters makes for 4.367 MOA shot FROM A REST. The 200 meter group, also 10 shots, makes for 1.941 MOA. Which give me pause for thought about the SHTF/PSA Challenge, as those last 5 shots to make 15 really take a toll on the precision. https://s5.postimg.org/heqj8ogd3/Range_Day_AR556and_SWMP1512232017_158_576x1024.jpg https://s5.postimg.org/fzoyjz2fb/Range_Day_AR556and_SWMP1512232017_161_576x1024.jpg And here, at 200 meters: https://s5.postimg.org/csuf0faaf/Range_Day_AR556and_SWMP1512232017groupsize4.444inchescentertoceter.jpg https://s5.postimg.org/5pmjktckn/Range_Day_AR556and_SWMP1512232017groupsize4.444inchescentertoceter.jpg |
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Quoted: I don't know man, 2 moa approx. at 200 meters for run of the mill ammo and 10 rounds with an RDS. What's not to like? The disparity between the Ruger and the Smith with the GI ammo is stark. A better test would be 3 10-shot groups, but what is here is interesting enough. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 25 Meter BUIS/irons/rds challenge, show my how much better you can shoot than I can........ (Page 3 of 7)
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