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Posted: 2/14/2019 11:19:18 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've reached out to Mr. Whitley about the Hagar. Trim length = 1.765" Berger 105gr nose/ projection = 0.698" / 2.463" OAL Berger 95gr none/ projection = 0.672" / 2.437" Cutting Edge 88gr projection = 0.655" / 2.42" So I think whats needed is a goldilocks case between AR15 COL based 6mm wilddcats, and the 6mm HAGAR. To run the 105's case length would have to be ~ 1.682" / 42.7mm. "6x42mm". |
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Posted: 2/14/2019 11:24:57 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've run some napkin analysis - I think the 6mm HAGAR might be slightly too long for the MDWS mag? Trim length = 1.765" Berger 105gr nose/ projection = 0.698" / 2.463" OAL Berger 95gr none/ projection = 0.672" / 2.437" Cutting Edge 88gr projection = 0.655" / 2.42" So I think whats needed is a goldilocks case between AR15 COL based 6mm wilddcats, and the 6mm HAGAR. To run the 105's case length would have to be ~ 1.682" / 42.7mm. "6x42mm". Between the SPC, GPC, 224 Valk, 22 Nosler we have the 6.8 version pretty well supplied with cartridges for it. That's the goal. The Grendel version has the 6.5 Grendel, 22 Grendel, 24, 25, etc. But, we are confident more will come since it will now have "room to grow". We also have a super-secret cartridge drawn that has a Grendel body but the reamers and test brass aren't here yet. |
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Posted: 2/14/2019 11:46:21 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our GPC case accomplishes what you want, the Hagar case is another established option, that's all. Between the SPC, GPC, 224 Valk, 22 Nosler we have the 6.8 version pretty well supplied with cartridges for it. That's the goal. The Grendel version has the 6.5 Grendel, 22 Grendel, 24, 25, etc. But, we are confident more will come since it will now have "room to grow". We also have a super-secret cartridge drawn that has a Grendel body but the reamers and test brass aren't here yet. Another idea I had, have you contacted Hornady about the development of the MDWS mag / potential for an AR12? They partnered with Creedmoor sports, and together popularized the hugely successful 6.5 creedmoor. They could be interested in working on a new cartridge or new projectile for an exciting new rifle platform. And that would put a major industry player on the side of the AR12 becoming a new, widely adopted platform |
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Posted: 2/15/2019 7:45:21 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whats the case length for the 24 GPC? Another idea I had, have you contacted Hornady about the development of the MDWS mag / potential for an AR12? They partnered with Creedmoor sports, and together popularized the hugely successful 6.5 creedmoor. They could be interested in working on a new cartridge or new projectile for an exciting new rifle platform. And that would put a major industry player on the side of the AR12 becoming a new, widely adopted platform |
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Posted: 2/16/2019 4:45:41 PM EDT
[#5]
This has me intrigued, I am collecting parts for a 224v build. Was planning on using a Mega forged receiver set I have but may switch that up. With being able to load heavy rounds in the 5.56 case I may jump on board. I'd be leaning towards the 22 nosler for the extra case capacity, I'm thinking a 22 nosler with an 88gr ELD or some of the new larger bullets that are slowly popping up. With a good barrel this should still get 224v accuracy but have a higher velocity.
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Posted: 2/16/2019 5:09:43 PM EDT
[#6]
With this extra length, which would be the best choice to seat long 22cal heavies out as far as possible but also maximizing case capacity.
88, 90, 95gr bullets. The Nosler looks good but the rebated case head hasn't been doing well with reloaders I think. How's the 22 GPC compare to the Valk? |
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Posted: 2/17/2019 11:04:30 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This has me intrigued, I am collecting parts for a 224v build. Was planning on using a Mega forged receiver set I have but may switch that up. With being able to load heavy rounds in the 5.56 case I may jump on board. I'd be leaning towards the 22 nosler for the extra case capacity, I'm thinking a 22 nosler with an 88gr ELD or some of the new larger bullets that are slowly popping up. With a good barrel this should still get 224v accuracy but have a higher velocity. That being said, not everything has to be loaded to 2.39". The ability to go to 2.39" is awesome, but I'm sure as folks start playing with this combo, that combo, they will see that 2.34, 2.36, 2.38" might be the sweet spot... for what they want to do which is great, because the 2.39" mag will allow it when others don't. |
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Posted: 2/17/2019 6:56:05 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm curious if current 5.56 or Wylde chambers would support this effort. Just because you can get a long bullet into the case and out to 2.39", doesn't mean you wouldn't be possibly jamming that bullet into the lands on current chamber designs. I have not played with those chambers and those long bullets to know if you could do it. If anyone wants to try some of them and post results it would make a stronger case for a 5.56 case version. That being said, not everything has to be loaded to 2.39". The ability to go to 2.39" is awesome, but I'm sure as folks start playing with this combo, that combo, they will see that 2.34, 2.36, 2.38" might be the sweet spot... for what they want to do which is great, because the 2.39" mag will allow it when others don't. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This has me intrigued, I am collecting parts for a 224v build. Was planning on using a Mega forged receiver set I have but may switch that up. With being able to load heavy rounds in the 5.56 case I may jump on board. I'd be leaning towards the 22 nosler for the extra case capacity, I'm thinking a 22 nosler with an 88gr ELD or some of the new larger bullets that are slowly popping up. With a good barrel this should still get 224v accuracy but have a higher velocity. That being said, not everything has to be loaded to 2.39". The ability to go to 2.39" is awesome, but I'm sure as folks start playing with this combo, that combo, they will see that 2.34, 2.36, 2.38" might be the sweet spot... for what they want to do which is great, because the 2.39" mag will allow it when others don't. |
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Posted: 2/18/2019 5:44:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Ok I started compiling some specs and data in Post 2 - if you have anything to contribute to that list, please let me know.
Thanks! |
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Posted: 2/18/2019 11:23:23 PM EDT
[#10]
for the Friend's company to get the rewards of their design effort.
I would suggest (as many already pointed out) 3 main criteria for the magazine: A) support .223 brass loaded with 80 to 100 gr bullets B) support 6.8 and 6.5G loaded with longer bullets (I think this was main impetus of the design anyway) C) has to fit a good number of receivers (or have a clear compatibility guildlines for what's on the market). That need includes polymer receivers. If the mags just fits 300+ plus receivers -- it will be a marketing problem, it will put into the 'expensive/bench rest only' category. may be making some sort of a 'kit' that allows it to go to smaller receives … this would be great. I just recently decided to get a few ACS mags with OAL 2.316”, exactly for the purpose of trying longer/heavier bullets with .223 brass out of 1/8 20 inch wylde barrel. With all the hoopla about Valkyre, I am intrigued, but not enough to disinvest from .223 and Grendel. I think, in general, making AR parts that leverage existing brass and FFL-items (eg receivers), while allowing customers to customize ballistics via updated barrels/mags and bolts --- a good business idea. It just needs to come with clean compatibility charts (and may be even new standard), price point that's compatible with current AR-market, and an explanation (to customers, and to investors) how the product line can be supported in the future by other companies (eg non proprietary/patented standards shit). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thats great to hear. I really do think the 5.56 brass versions will be tremendously popular. Being able to shoot cheap factory 5.56, as well as "5.56 Long" handloads out of the same rifle, would make for an ideal blend of practical /performance. In terms of the 6.8 and 6.5 brass based cartridges, any plans for a 6mm cartridge optimized for the new 2.39 col? A good 6mm is really whats missing. Also, for partnerships - have you contacted PSA? I think that would be a huge jump start - getting a PSA "AR12" for $600-$700 would do wonders for increasing popularity for new shooters. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Yes 5.56 versions and ".308 case" versions are possible, too. Seriously, it's a slam dunk. The first ones to be made will be 6.8SPC case and 6.5 Grendel case because those two platforms offer more case capacity than 5.56, and, cartridges like our "Fat Cats" are not as mainstream yet. In terms of the 6.8 and 6.5 brass based cartridges, any plans for a 6mm cartridge optimized for the new 2.39 col? A good 6mm is really whats missing. Also, for partnerships - have you contacted PSA? I think that would be a huge jump start - getting a PSA "AR12" for $600-$700 would do wonders for increasing popularity for new shooters. |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 12:10:20 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SPC-case: 224 Valkyrie 22 Nosler 6.8SPC/6.8SPCII 6 WOA 6mm PDK 6mm Hagar 22 GPC 24 GPC 25 GPC 26 GPC 27 GPC 28 GPC 30 GPC 6x6.8 22x6.8 Grendel-case: 6.5 Grendel 22 Grendel 6mm Grendel 257 H&H/(25 Grendel) 7mm Grendel 30 ARX 35 Grendel/358 Gremlin 338 Grendel http://www.6mmar.com/6mmAR_Turbo_40_Improved.php |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 12:14:35 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For Grendel, I'd add 6mm Turbo and 6mm Turbo 40 (assuming these are compatible): http://www.6mmar.com/6mmAR_Turbo_40_Improved.php |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 1:18:39 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
for the Friend's company to get the rewards of their design effort. I would suggest (as many already pointed out) 3 main criteria for the magazine: A) support .223 brass loaded with 80 to 100 gr bullets B) support 6.8 and 6.5G loaded with longer bullets (I think this was main impetus of the design anyway) C) has to fit a good number of receivers (or have a clear compatibility guildlines for what's on the market). That need includes polymer receivers. If the mags just fits 300+ plus receivers -- it will be a marketing problem, it will put into the 'expensive/bench rest only' category. may be making some sort of a 'kit' that allows it to go to smaller receives … this would be great. I just recently decided to get a few ACS mags with OAL 2.316”, exactly for the purpose of trying longer/heavier bullets with .223 brass out of 1/8 20 inch wylde barrel. With all the hoopla about Valkyre, I am intrigued, but not enough to disinvest from .223 and Grendel. I think, in general, making AR parts that leverage existing brass and FFL-items (eg receivers), while allowing customers to customize ballistics via updated barrels/mags and bolts --- a good business idea. It just needs to come with clean compatibility charts (and may be even new standard), price point that's compatible with current AR-market, and an explanation (to customers, and to investors) how the product line can be supported in the future by other companies (eg non proprietary/patented standards shit). Quote HistoryQuoted:
for the Friend's company to get the rewards of their design effort. I would suggest (as many already pointed out) 3 main criteria for the magazine: A) support .223 brass loaded with 80 to 100 gr bullets B) support 6.8 and 6.5G loaded with longer bullets (I think this was main impetus of the design anyway) C) has to fit a good number of receivers (or have a clear compatibility guildlines for what's on the market). That need includes polymer receivers. If the mags just fits 300+ plus receivers -- it will be a marketing problem, it will put into the 'expensive/bench rest only' category. may be making some sort of a 'kit' that allows it to go to smaller receives … this would be great. I just recently decided to get a few ACS mags with OAL 2.316”, exactly for the purpose of trying longer/heavier bullets with .223 brass out of 1/8 20 inch wylde barrel. With all the hoopla about Valkyre, I am intrigued, but not enough to disinvest from .223 and Grendel. I think, in general, making AR parts that leverage existing brass and FFL-items (eg receivers), while allowing customers to customize ballistics via updated barrels/mags and bolts --- a good business idea. It just needs to come with clean compatibility charts (and may be even new standard), price point that's compatible with current AR-market, and an explanation (to customers, and to investors) how the product line can be supported in the future by other companies (eg non proprietary/patented standards shit). Quoted:
Quoted: Yes 5.56 versions and ".308 case" versions are possible, too. Seriously, it's a slam dunk. The first ones to be made will be 6.8SPC case and 6.5 Grendel case because those two platforms offer more case capacity than 5.56, and, cartridges like our "Fat Cats" are not as mainstream yet. In terms of the 6.8 and 6.5 brass based cartridges, any plans for a 6mm cartridge optimized for the new 2.39 col? A good 6mm is really whats missing. Also, for partnerships - have you contacted PSA? I think that would be a huge jump start - getting a PSA "AR12" for $600-$700 would do wonders for increasing popularity for new shooters. The aluminum permits a thinner magazine than the standard Six8 polymer magazine, so you will get the benefits of the longer OAL. This will not fit every receiver on the market but rather any receiver made to accommodate the Six8 pattern. |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 1:33:21 AM EDT
[#14]
Are these 2.390 with AL mags or steel?
If AL, could steel mags do even longer? Edit, thinking about it, since 6.8 mags are steel im going to assume these are steel. |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 4:33:32 AM EDT
[#15]
Op, i will ask again: will grendel cartridges stack up without gaps between a given cartridge and the one directly above and below it on the same side of the mag??
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Posted: 2/19/2019 8:30:27 AM EDT
[#16]
Edit, thinking about it, since 6.8 mags are steel im going to assume these are steel.
They are steel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Op, i will ask again: will grendel cartridges stack up without gaps between a given cartridge and the one directly above and below it on the same side of the mag?? I think this thread shows they are though... even in the plastic mag which means they would be even more so in the metal version: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/LWRC-Six8-Lower-with-Larue-6-5-Grendel-Upper/121-737220/ |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 8:30:53 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are these 2.390 with AL mags or steel? If AL, could steel mags do even longer? Edit, thinking about it, since 6.8 mags are steel im going to assume these are steel. |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 10:26:01 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Op, i will ask again: will grendel cartridges stack up without gaps between a given cartridge and the one directly above and below it on the same side of the mag?? |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 4:22:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Something that occurred to me - have you looked into a high strength 6.8 bolt?
Both 5.56 and 7.62 / 6.5 Creedmoor have a max operating pressure of 62kspi. Yet most SAAMI loads for both the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel are 55kpsi. Since the MDWS Mag is ideal for the new line of GPC cartridges that are not yet SAAMI, they are not limited to 55kpsi. If a suitably strong bolt is used, they could be loaded to the 62kpsi - potentially opening up a whole new level of performance, especially out of shorter barrels where higher pressure is really advantageous. |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 4:26:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Something that occurred to me - have you looked into a high strength 6.8 bolt? Both 5.56 and 7.62 / 6.5 Creedmoor have a max operating pressure of 62kspi. Yet most SAAMI loads for both the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel are 55kpsi. Since the MDWS Mag is ideal for the new line of GPC cartridges that are not yet SAAMI, they are not limited to 55kpsi. If a suitably strong bolt is used, they could be loaded to the 62kpsi - potentially opening up a whole new level of performance, especially out of shorter barrels where higher pressure is really advantageous. |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 5:00:22 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You'll either have to make it bigger, and I think that runs into some patents, or make it out of extremely strong metal, which is expensive. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Something that occurred to me - have you looked into a high strength 6.8 bolt? Both 5.56 and 7.62 / 6.5 Creedmoor have a max operating pressure of 62kspi. Yet most SAAMI loads for both the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel are 55kpsi. Since the MDWS Mag is ideal for the new line of GPC cartridges that are not yet SAAMI, they are not limited to 55kpsi. If a suitably strong bolt is used, they could be loaded to the 62kpsi - potentially opening up a whole new level of performance, especially out of shorter barrels where higher pressure is really advantageous. https://jprifles.com/1.4.7_Bolt.php The ideal "AR12" would likely be something like a LWRC Six8 / CMMG Mutant hybrid. Six8 sized weapon, the new MDWS mag, and CMMG's super beefy hybrid AR10/AR15 bolt: 
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Posted: 2/19/2019 5:08:59 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The JP 6.8 bolt claims to be both better steel and better geometry: https://jprifles.com/1.4.7_Bolt.php The ideal "AR12" would likely be something like a LWRC Six8 / CMMG Mutant hybrid. Six8 sized weapon, the new MDWS mag, and CMMG's super beefy hybrid AR10/AR15 bolt: https://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/CMMG-Mutant-vs-Standard-Ar15-Bolt-Face.jpg The beauty of this arrangement is that: The receivers already exist and more will be coming. The platform uses all AR15 standard parts except the (receiver set), magazines and magazine catch. (Including non-proprietary bolts and extensions, carriers, etc.) Many existing cartridges can utilize the platform to enhance their capabilities (see post #2) There is well established SPC case and Grendel case support so that more cartridges can be made using them as parents. We will be running LWRC ACB's for bolts in our SPC-case rifles. The JP look nice for the Grendel versions. Remember SAAMI pressure specs are dictated by multiple factors, including case diameter, case/brass strength, bolt thrust/rim diameter, expected host firearms and their safety factors, etc. |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 6:13:44 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The JP 6.8 bolt claims to be both better steel and better geometry:
https://jprifles.com/1.4.7_Bolt.php The ideal "AR12" would likely be something like a LWRC Six8 / CMMG Mutant hybrid. Six8 sized weapon, the new MDWS mag, and CMMG's super beefy hybrid AR10/AR15 bolt: https://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/CMMG-Mutant-vs-Standard-Ar15-Bolt-Face.jpg While metal mags for the Six8 is a small step forward, the juice is worth the squeeze only for a small number of folks. |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 6:29:00 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Isn't the Mutant a longer upper and proprietary bolt carrier as well? If so, would it not be better to capitalize on the existing larger upper, bolt carrier & bbl extension, and create a longer billet lower w/ a longer magwell? While metal mags for the Six8 is a small step forward, the juice is worth the squeeze only for a small number of folks. Sure, a 2.55" COAL rifle would be great, but you would be starting entirely from scratch. Only cost ya' a couple MM to get that done. Plus, with today's technologies in components, you can do "a lot closer" to the .308 platform with just a 2.39" capability and not have to design an new, bigger, heavier rifle. It won't be for everyone, we know that. |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 6:50:34 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Edit, thinking about it, since 6.8 mags are steel im going to assume these are steel. They are steel. I was told they are a true double-stack, yes, but will request a drawing that reflects loaded cartridges to visually verify. Sorry if I missed your first inquiry. I think this thread shows they are though... even in the plastic mag which means they would be even more so in the metal version: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/LWRC-Six8-Lower-with-Larue-6-5-Grendel-Upper/121-737220/ Quote HistoryQuoted:
Edit, thinking about it, since 6.8 mags are steel im going to assume these are steel. They are steel. Quoted:
Op, i will ask again: will grendel cartridges stack up without gaps between a given cartridge and the one directly above and below it on the same side of the mag?? I think this thread shows they are though... even in the plastic mag which means they would be even more so in the metal version: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/LWRC-Six8-Lower-with-Larue-6-5-Grendel-Upper/121-737220/ |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 6:56:26 PM EDT
[#26]
The mutant bcg/upper receiver would be freat with this...IF...the upper would fit on the six8 lower/ar15 lower I dont know if the receiver pin holes line up w that mutant upper tho. If not, then fuck it, a guy may as well just go to a dpms g2 or similar and shoot 308 or 6.5 creed.
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Posted: 2/19/2019 6:57:46 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Confirmed by manufacturer. True double stack. Drawing coming in a couple days. Gonna be different stampings w ribs in different places for different shoulder positions and case widths? |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 7:01:48 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great! Gonna be different stampings w ribs in different places for different shoulder positions and case widths? Same with the SPC case version. |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 7:56:57 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We respectfully disagree with you there... consumer confusion is the biggest hurdle in the beginning. Once the concept grows and new cartridges get developed it changes the whole dynamic.
Sure, a 2.55" COAL rifle would be great, but you would be starting entirely from scratch. Only cost ya' a couple MM to get that done. Plus, with today's technologies in components, you can do "a lot closer" to the .308 platform with just a 2.39" capability and not have to design an new, bigger, heavier rifle. It won't be for everyone, we know that. |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 8:27:50 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Glad to know you looked @ it. Existing mags is a big plus - I wish you the best of luck. |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 9:09:54 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isn't the Mutant a longer upper and proprietary bolt carrier as well? If so, would it not be better to capitalize on the existing larger upper, bolt carrier & bbl extension, and create a longer billet lower w/ a longer magwell? While metal mags for the Six8 is a small step forward, the juice is worth the squeeze only for a small number of folks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The JP 6.8 bolt claims to be both better steel and better geometry:
https://jprifles.com/1.4.7_Bolt.php The ideal "AR12" would likely be something like a LWRC Six8 / CMMG Mutant hybrid. Six8 sized weapon, the new MDWS mag, and CMMG's super beefy hybrid AR10/AR15 bolt: https://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/CMMG-Mutant-vs-Standard-Ar15-Bolt-Face.jpg While metal mags for the Six8 is a small step forward, the juice is worth the squeeze only for a small number of folks. 
I agree that a scratch built AR12 with a 2.5-2.6" COL and beefy bolt would be ideal. But, given that no manufacturers have stepped up to the plate, the Six8 + MDWS Magazine provides a pretty viable 80/20 "AR12," and it's the best we can hope for for the forseable future. I'm quite excited for the potential the MDWS platform will have with 6mm 88-95gr's. |
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Posted: 2/19/2019 11:37:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Nope. Won't take off. LWRC makes great stuff, no doubt, but their 6.8 hasn't taken off for a reason.
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Posted: 2/19/2019 11:53:24 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. Won't take off. LWRC makes great stuff, no doubt, but their 6.8 hasn't taken off for a reason. Sorry guys, project cancelled. We are scrapping the whole thing. This guy knows best. There was just too much positive feedback, too many interested parties and it seemed like there was no hope or need according to the majority. Just forget it. Packing my bags and going home now. Thanks for saving us the embarrassment partner. |
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Posted: 2/20/2019 12:58:07 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not 100% sure - from what I've been able to gather, the Mutant is a sort of "AR12" in its own right - it uses an AR10 BCG, and an intermediate length upper receiver, and then either AK or AR15 mags. http://i.imgur.com/gjQMAvC.jpg?1 I agree that a scratch built AR12 with a 2.5-2.6" COL and beefy bolt would be ideal. But, given that no manufacturers have stepped up to the plate, the Six8 + MDWS Magazine provides a pretty viable 80/20 "AR12," and it's the best we can hope for for the forseable future. I'm quite excited for the potential the MDWS platform will have with 6mm 88-95gr's. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: The JP 6.8 bolt claims to be both better steel and better geometry:
https://jprifles.com/1.4.7_Bolt.php The ideal "AR12" would likely be something like a LWRC Six8 / CMMG Mutant hybrid. Six8 sized weapon, the new MDWS mag, and CMMG's super beefy hybrid AR10/AR15 bolt: https://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/CMMG-Mutant-vs-Standard-Ar15-Bolt-Face.jpg While metal mags for the Six8 is a small step forward, the juice is worth the squeeze only for a small number of folks. http://i.imgur.com/gjQMAvC.jpg?1 I agree that a scratch built AR12 with a 2.5-2.6" COL and beefy bolt would be ideal. But, given that no manufacturers have stepped up to the plate, the Six8 + MDWS Magazine provides a pretty viable 80/20 "AR12," and it's the best we can hope for for the forseable future. I'm quite excited for the potential the MDWS platform will have with 6mm 88-95gr's. |
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Posted: 2/20/2019 1:05:50 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. Won't take off. LWRC makes great stuff, no doubt, but their 6.8 hasn't taken off for a reason. They even had a couple military contracts over seas for it. |
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Posted: 2/20/2019 3:22:32 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Last I chatted with them, they seemed to claim it was a sales success. A niche mind you but they mentioned that they had healthy sales for their Six8 and the expanded 224 Valkyrie setups. They even had a couple military contracts over seas for it. |
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Posted: 2/20/2019 4:32:25 PM EDT
[#37]
This whole AR12 (for lack of a better term, but it is fitting) will be a great option if they do the following:
1. Maintain as much cross compatibility with the AR15 platform with parts. 2. Keep it as light as possible. Everyone's criticism of the AR10 platform is they get heavy and less wield-able fast. 3. Maximize the COAL of the magazine well, one can always design a shorter COAL mag, but can't go the other way. 4. Maximize the width of the magazine well, like above one can always design a narrower mag. 5. Keep size and weight in mind when designing for 3 & 4. 6. Make improvements to lower such as the newer Aero lowers have incorporated. 7. I assume that there is a need for a longer charging handle on the Six8, Sulzer, Frontier designed "AR12" receiver sets (thus we are in proprietary parts realm anyways). If so then design the charging handle and slot to remedy some of the gas coming back in the face with suppressed use. 8. Allow for higher pressure BCG's? (downside, this would get into more proprietary parts, but huge upside) 9. Quick change barreled upper receiver, cam lock/ratchet/etc system Pretty much look at the advancements in the aftermarket world of the AR15, and incorporate as much improvements that can be while maintaining parts cross-over, while determining what proprietary parts are worth it in the end (magwell changes, high-pressure BCG's, etc.) |
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Posted: 2/20/2019 4:45:11 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This whole AR12 (for lack of a better term, but it is fitting) will be a great option if they do the following: 1. Maintain as much cross compatibility with the AR15 platform with parts. 2. Keep it as light as possible. Everyone's criticism of the AR10 platform is they get heavy and less wield-able fast. 3. Maximize the COAL of the magazine well, one can always design a shorter COAL mag, but can't go the other way. 4. Maximize the width of the magazine well, like above one can always design a narrower mag. 5. Keep size and weight in mind when designing for 3 & 4. 6. Make improvements to lower such as the newer Aero lowers have incorporated. 7. I assume that there is a need for a longer charging handle on the Six8, Sulzer, Frontier designed "AR12" receiver sets (thus we are in proprietary parts realm anyways). If so then design the charging handle and slot to remedy some of the gas coming back in the face with suppressed use. 8. Allow for higher pressure BCG's? (downside, this would get into more proprietary parts, but huge upside) 9. Quick change barreled upper receiver, cam lock/ratchet/etc system Pretty much look at the advancements in the aftermarket world of the AR15, and incorporate as much improvements that can be while maintaining parts cross-over, while determining what proprietary parts are worth it in the end (magwell changes, high-pressure BCG's, etc.) |
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Posted: 2/21/2019 2:49:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LWRC Six8 and other Six8 receiver sets do not require an elongated charging handle. They continue to use the standard milspec designed charging handle. |
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Posted: 2/21/2019 3:58:14 PM EDT
[#40]
You guys really need to stop calling it an AR-12.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/ArmaLite_AR_12_Direct_Impingement_Short_Stroke_Piston/123-633428/?page=1 
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Posted: 2/21/2019 4:07:07 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You guys really need to stop calling it an AR-12.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/ArmaLite_AR_12_Direct_Impingement_Short_Stroke_Piston/123-633428/?page=1 http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/halpark/IMG_0003-1.jpg AR-12 Mod 1/Rev2 ? You are right though... 
Maybe the MSR-12 ? Would Savage mind? |
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Posted: 2/21/2019 7:42:35 PM EDT
[#42]
MDW-12 ?
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Posted: 2/21/2019 8:10:49 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You guys really need to stop calling it an AR-12.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/ArmaLite_AR_12_Direct_Impingement_Short_Stroke_Piston/123-633428/?page=1 http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/halpark/IMG_0003-1.jpg 
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/01/17/cttso-releases-solicitation-264-usa-rifles-carbines-pdws/ That said, the .264 USA AR12 envisioned a 2.6" cartridge. If "AR12" is not the name, I think "AR 6X" would be a strong contender as a backup name. Six8 --> 6X because the new platform is based on firing a wide variety of 6xmm cartridges (6mm, 6.35, 6.5, 6.8) while still giving the nod to this being in the Six8 wheelhouse. |
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Posted: 2/21/2019 8:44:57 PM EDT
[#44]
Truth be told we already filed for a Trademark for the platform as we will offer it. Complete uppers, rifles, magazines and a few specific cartridges that will all tie back to the platform name.
LWRC will always be the SIX8, but as more folks offer more receivers and such we figured we would use one name to standardize it. As soon as I hear back from the USPTO we will start using it. We can't control what other people call them, but, setting a standard from the beginning will be important. It already exists with the LWRC SIX8, but we can't use that name obviously. |
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Posted: 2/21/2019 8:46:05 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AR-12.5 ? AR-12 Mod 1/Rev2 ? You are right though...
Maybe the MSR-12 ? Would Savage mind? |
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Posted: 2/21/2019 10:38:00 PM EDT
[#46]
Soliciting comments on this Infographic. It is meant to be basic, one slide, so let's keep it that way if possible. I thought about comparing cartridge performance specs but it gets cluttered; I thought the photo of the cartridges was self-explanatory.
Rifle specs quoted are per product descriptions on their websites and "best averages" for "standard AR15". It isn't final, nor does it have our name on it yet until it is final. I'm soliciting your opinions and comments (good or bad) on the approach/format as a simple one-page explanation of what we are doing here. Thanks in advance. 
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Posted: 2/21/2019 11:02:53 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Soliciting comments on this Infographic. It is meant to be basic, one slide, so let's keep it that way if possible. I thought about comparing cartridge performance specs but it gets cluttered; I thought the photo of the cartridges was self-explanatory. Rifle specs quoted are per product descriptions on their websites and "best averages" for "standard AR15". It isn't final, nor does it have our name on it yet until it is final. I'm soliciting your opinions and comments (good or bad) on the approach/format as a simple one-page explanation of what we are doing here. Thanks in advance. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401879/AR-12_Infographic_-_Copy-853636.jpg |
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Posted: 2/21/2019 11:15:14 PM EDT
[#48]
Maybe I'm cynical, but I think you really should have a very hard to miss disclaimer that clearly says "These receivers are not compatible with Mil-Spec receivers" for the MSR-12. For most, your description is self-explanatory, but there are just too many stupid people to assume anything is self-explanatory these days. Or you can just let your customer service department deal with the morons later.
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Posted: 2/21/2019 11:18:49 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe I'm cynical, but I think you really should have a very hard to miss disclaimer that clearly says "These receivers are not compatible with Mil-Spec receivers" for the MSR-12. For most, your description is self-explanatory, but there are just too many stupid people to assume anything is self-explanatory these days. Or you can just let your customer service department deal with the morons later. |
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Posted: 2/21/2019 11:43:39 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Soliciting comments on this Infographic. It is meant to be basic, one slide, so let's keep it that way if possible. I thought about comparing cartridge performance specs but it gets cluttered; I thought the photo of the cartridges was self-explanatory. Rifle specs quoted are per product descriptions on their websites and "best averages" for "standard AR15". It isn't final, nor does it have our name on it yet until it is final. I'm soliciting your opinions and comments (good or bad) on the approach/format as a simple one-page explanation of what we are doing here. Thanks in advance. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/401879/AR-12_Infographic_-_Copy-853636.jpg -Middle chart should just say "MSR-12" / AR 12 (not LWRC Six/New Frontier, etc.) This makes it easier to understand what it is. -Ditch the magwell width info, no one cares about that, just focus on COL -Don't mention 6.8 SPC / 6.5g - those are old news cartridge wise, and can already be had in the AR15. --> Use the 24 GPC with the Berger 95gr VLD from a 16" barrel. This is the most compelling "new" cartridge capability, and best displays what the AR12 brings to the table. --> "AR12 = Lightweight firepower of the AR15, with the long range performance of the AR10. The best of both worlds." --> 24 GPC mini info graphic. -24 GPC = 95gr @ 2660fps from 16" as the title -Picture of 5.56, 24 GPC center, 7.62x51 - showing different cartirdge lengths -Info on cartridge weights for each (12g, ~16g, 24g) -Recoil comparison (adjust for 6mm, less then 6.8 spc) -Mini ballistic comparison showing MK262 vs GPC 95gr vs 7.62 - display the 600 yard Velocity and Drop for all 3 from a 16" barrel. 5.56 MK262 = 77gr 0.362 G1 @ 2730fps = 1463 fps / -107" @ 600 yards 24 GPC = 95gr 0.467 G1 @ 2660fps = 1649 fps / - 100" @ 600 yards 7.62 M80 = 147gr 0.420 G1 @ 2700fps = 1584 fps / -101" @ 600 yards 
* also, in terms of rifle weight, 7.2lbs is the weight of the Six8, which is a piston rifle. If the MSR12 is DI, it's likely to be a good bit lighter - LWRC's DI's are 4-6oz's lighter then their same piston rifles. |
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