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Posted: 7/25/2024 7:00:43 PM EDT
| Finally going to try an AK build. ARs and 1911's all turned out great so I'm giving the AK a go. I'm actually cheating alot, I got a Childers 80% with the trunnions and trigger guard already installed, so there's that. Which brings me to the barrel. Almost all the barrels I find have no gas port drilled, so I'll have to do that, but how does one 'clock' the barrel correctly? I know there's a cut out for the extractor, but how does one correctly line that up for pressing? |
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Extractor cutout? That's 90 degrees. Don't worry about it. You line it all up best you can by eye or get a jig for it. Often I'll populate or partially populate the barrel to make it easier to line up. Otherwise just do the best you can. The thing it'll affect is the lower handguard unless it has no notch for that either. I'll take a small rubber mallet, line things up then smack the.muzzle to try to set it in the trunnion so I don't have to worry as much about it moving out of position before pressing it in. Measure your barrel journal and the trunnion bore and.make.sure you don't have to turn the barrel down a little. Otherwise it's going to be a mess trying to install it. |
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Thanks for the tips! I'm planning on using an Occam Defense rail system, so I won't have to install the rear sight block, front sight or hand guard retainer, so that's less work but it takes some of the alignment 'tools' out of the equation. I'll probably rig something up on the barrel pin groove and handguard groove, if the barrel has them. I just ordered it this morning and the pictures seem to show them, but I won't know for sure until it shows up. I know AKs are NOT ARs, but I feel like I have decent skills and knowledge of the system to figure everything out, just wasn't sure on clocking the barrel. My only other hurdle will be drilling the barrel pin, gas block pins, and setting headspace. Youtube is your friend there. Only exception I've noticed is when setting headspace, everyone shows how to use the gauges, but they don't show moving the barrel to tighten or loosen headspace. I know my tool will do that, it's just going to be my first time so I'm a little unsure of it. I think I'm really going to enjoy doing this, I just hope it turns out decent... |
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Originally Posted By roninsan: Thanks for the tips! I'm planning on using an Occam Defense rail system, so I won't have to install the rear sight block, front sight or hand guard retainer, so that's less work but it takes some of the alignment 'tools' out of the equation. I'll probably rig something up on the barrel pin groove and handguard groove, if the barrel has them. I just ordered it this morning and the pictures seem to show them, but I won't know for sure until it shows up. I know AKs are NOT ARs, but I feel like I have decent skills and knowledge of the system to figure everything out, just wasn't sure on clocking the barrel. My only other hurdle will be drilling the barrel pin, gas block pins, and setting headspace. Youtube is your friend there. Only exception I've noticed is when setting headspace, everyone shows how to use the gauges, but they don't show moving the barrel to tighten or loosen headspace. I know my tool will do that, it's just going to be my first time so I'm a little unsure of it. I think I'm really going to enjoy doing this, I just hope it turns out decent... Might even be easier to use the lower handguard lock groove. Just put a drill bit or dowel pin across it and make sure it's parallel with the table you have everything on. You'll be close enough especially if you don't have a gas port hole yet. Just make sure the extractor area is on the correct side. As for the gas port, I've done it both ways, with the block off and the block on. I like with the block off. I'll push the block on, mark where I need to drill, pull the block off and drill it. I have a milling machine which makes it all pretty easy. Using the gas block as a drill guide is easier for sure. Depends on the gas block you have what may be easier. IMHO, most people use headspace gauges wrong. You are not supposed to use the carrier to ram the bolt home. You should be able to take the bolt by its self by hand, installed the GO and lock it in with minimal effort with your fingers. The NO GO should not lock in even with force. If it takes force to lock in with GO you need to push the barrel out a hair. I have done some guns, VZ58, with the bolt in with the GO in the bolt and just pushed until it stopped. Not really a thing you can do with a stamped gun most of the time. Again, bolt outside the carrier and you shouldn't have to use force to lock in on GO and NO GO should not be able to go in. Test it all before pinning the gas block. I promise, it won't move. Adjusting headspace will be a few 0.001"s each way to find home. Check often when you are pushing the barrel in. Easier to sneak up on it than re-fixture and push the barrel back out. |
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Ok, most of the videos I've seen do show using the carrier, which seemed odd since you really can't see what's going on with the bolt. If it's a GO it should rotate in smoothly, with minimal play between the lugs and the trunnion. But I would think being able to see that would be easier without the carrier. Thanks for that tip! I plan on using a Toth Tools barrel install kit, which to me makes sense for head spacing since you can press the barrel in so slowly, MMs at a time, as opposed to a press that you have less control over. I'll still use the press for like, the barrel pin, but that's about it. I still have stuff I need to get, tool wise, and a few parts before I'll have enough to finish it, but I'm more interested in this project than any AR or 1911 I've done. With the somewhat reasonable price and availability on parts, at least WBP parts, I may have to do another one just to see if I can get good at it. But then, I have to get more ammo.... |
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Originally Posted By roninsan: Finally going to try an AK build. ARs and 1911's all turned out great so I'm giving the AK a go. I'm actually cheating alot, I got a Childers 80% with the trunnions and trigger guard already installed, so there's that. Which brings me to the barrel. Almost all the barrels I find have no gas port drilled, so I'll have to do that, but how does one 'clock' the barrel correctly? I know there's a cut out for the extractor, but how does one correctly line that up for pressing? You kids these days got it easy. And arms of America has kits with barrels already populated. You'd only have to like drill like 4 holes and you'd have a working rifle.. |
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Originally Posted By CPT_CAVEMAN: You kids these days got it easy. And arms of America has kits with barrels already populated. You'd only have to like drill like 4 holes and you'd have a working rifle.. How do you properly crush the rivets in the trunion with a barrel in it? There are 2 rivets that I'm pretty sure you can't get to with the barrel in place. I'll have to pull a trunion out to confirm that. |
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Originally Posted By roninsan: Ok, most of the videos I've seen do show using the carrier, which seemed odd since you really can't see what's going on with the bolt. If it's a GO it should rotate in smoothly, with minimal play between the lugs and the trunnion. But I would think being able to see that would be easier without the carrier. Thanks for that tip! I plan on using a Toth Tools barrel install kit, which to me makes sense for head spacing since you can press the barrel in so slowly, MMs at a time, as opposed to a press that you have less control over. I'll still use the press for like, the barrel pin, but that's about it. I still have stuff I need to get, tool wise, and a few parts before I'll have enough to finish it, but I'm more interested in this project than any AR or 1911 I've done. With the somewhat reasonable price and availability on parts, at least WBP parts, I may have to do another one just to see if I can get good at it. But then, I have to get more ammo.... The carrier makes it easy to force the bolt to lock. You'll basically either fit the NO GO and have to push the barrel in further or the GO won't fit and you'll have to move the barrel out a bit. It's only a few thousandths between GO and NO GO. I believe the 7?62x54r gauges I made are 0.007" difference. Not much wiggle. I don't believe I've used the Toth barrel tool. Haven't had an issue using a press. My favorite press to use is the air.over hydraulic at work, it has a high speed travel and a low speed high pressure. Makes its really easy to do fine adjustments. It's also the press that has injured me the most. Lost thumbnails from things exploding out of it. My 20T HF press has been easy to make fine adjustments. If the bore/barrel interface is too right the barrel can pop and be difficult to precisely place. 1.0mm is 0.040". That's a LOT! AKs are fun to build. You don't need all the fancy parts. I have a set of bolt cutters that have jaws for squishing rivets. Can build an AK without a press. My support for the trunion for pressing in the barrel is a piece of mild steel that looks like a T with 3 5/16 bolts in it. I use aluminum pipe to sleeve the barrel and populate it. My barrel removal tool is a couple rounds welded to a 1/2" piece and a brass round to be nice to the chamber. I use those more than all the fancy Toth and Forbus tools. |
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I just did my third this spring. Well, I guess it’s not done yet. Not happy with the front sight block twice now. But it’s functional. M72: Attached File Previously, I built an M70 and a Romy 63. And an FAL: Attached File Well the point is, if I can do it, anyone can. Especially if you’re not drilling and riveting trunnions. |
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Originally Posted By Deerhurst: How do you properly crush the rivets in the trunion with a barrel in it? There are 2 rivets that I'm pretty sure you can't get to with the barrel in place. I'll have to pull a trunion out to confirm that. Reading the OP it sounds like the trunnions are already installed. If he just means the holes, then ya, you can't PROPERLY do it with the barrel installed l. |
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Originally Posted By CPT_CAVEMAN: Reading the OP it sounds like the trunnions are already installed. If he just means the holes, then ya, you can't PROPERLY do it with the barrel installed l. I keep seeing things being sold as kits with headspaced barrels/trunnions. I always wonder why as you just have to remove it to get the trunnion in. |
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Originally Posted By Deerhurst: I keep seeing things being sold as kits with headspaced barrels/trunnions. I always wonder why as you just have to remove it to get the trunnion in. Originally Posted By Deerhurst: Originally Posted By CPT_CAVEMAN: Reading the OP it sounds like the trunnions are already installed. If he just means the holes, then ya, you can't PROPERLY do it with the barrel installed l. I keep seeing things being sold as kits with headspaced barrels/trunnions. I always wonder why as you just have to remove it to get the trunnion in. The one I used they just left it losely together, I installed it, checked headspace, and went on. I guess in OPs example if the trunnion is already installed it might not work, myself would give it a try and just use the bolt that comes in the kit. |
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Originally Posted By Deerhurst: I keep seeing things being sold as kits with headspaced barrels/trunnions. I always wonder why as you just have to remove it to get the trunnion in. If you look at the pics of the ones on AoA, the barrel pin is sticking most of the way out, just a tap or two to remove looks like, then press off barrel from trunnion. |
Smaug:"I laid low the warriors of old and their like is not in the world today". 1 dedicated marksman who held his ground and kept shooting:"Haha bow go twang!"
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I'm actually building from scratch, the only thing I have so far is the receiver, and the front, rear trunnion were in fact riveted in already. The trigger guard was also riveted in. All I have to do is press the barrel in and headspace it. The only holes I have to drill is the FCG pins. Atlantic had a flash sale the other day and I got a barrel, barrel pin, and a Polish bolt. Slowly coming together... I had to laugh at the "You kids got it easy" comment! I remember watching build videos on DVD.... |
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Ok, here's what I've gotten done since I got my receiver back. I had to return it as the magwell blocks weren't milled and you couldn't get a mag in at all. He told me to send it back and he'd mill it for me. It's still tighter than Dick's hatband, and so far only polymer mags will go in, seat, and come back out. Metal mags will have to be filed to fit, and so far, they''ll go in but they're hell to get out. I also had to file the rear of the ejector to get the bolt to clear it. Had to make like a ramp for the bolt to slide over it. Still a little rough but way better. The next challenge is the trigger and hammer pin holes. The template doesn't seem to quite line up right but it's hard to see. Does it matter which side you drill first? I feel like I'm going to screw this step up for sure. The other item is the selector hole. I've searched youtube until I'm blind, searched the forums, no one seems to have instructions on how to mill that out. I know there's two holes, one large one smaller, and you file out the space in between, but the template only has two small holes that sort of line up with the recess for the selector. This seems really difficult so far, but since this is my first AK I'm trying to be patient. Spent hours working on the magwell issue and ejector. Anyone got tips on the FCG holes and selector holes? Much appreciated! |
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Ok, today was the big event, pressing my first AK barrel. I used a Toth Tools barrel press tool, and having learned from watching a gazillion Youtube videos, I began. It went fine until....the threaded rods on the tool bent!! I thought I was putting too much pressure on the thing but the barrel was going in nicely, so I took the thing apart, straightened the rods and tried again. Still had issues with the brass jig that goes into the barrel want to twist, causing the whole tool at the muzzle end to twist. Frustrating. Anyway, I managed to get the thing reassembled, and holding the thing with a crescent wrench, I pushed the barrel the last few millimeters in and stopped to check headspace. I tried Go, No Go and a loaded cartridge. (Firing pin removed.) I thought I must have done something wrong, because the thing was snug, very little free movement, and the bolt turned easily on the Go gauge. I tried it with and without the carrier and it was perfect. I scratched my head wondering how I could have possibly got it right the very first try. I checked it dozens of times. Then I drilled the barrel pin hole, cleaned it out and reamed the hole to 7mm. I looked perfect. Pin went right in with a few taps from a hammer. Tight, but not too tight. Headspace checked the same. Feeling empowered, I took the FCG template, clamped it onto the receiver, and drilled all the holes. Took me a minute to realize one side was larger than the other for the pins to lock in. Duh. The selector hole was a bit of a challenge, and I've yet to see a video of anyone drilling it, but I had a factory Arsenal AK to compare, and I figured that out too. Didn't look as neat and clean as the factory gun, but it works. No idea why the drill bit didn't make a more perfectly round hole. Anyway, I am happy with the results of my first try at an AK, I of course won't know for sure if I did it right or not until I shoot the thing, but so far, so good. Next is the Occam Defense adjustable gas block. Looks like that should be a challenge as well... |
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I built three of these over the years never had anything but a barrel press block jig I got off gunbroker for $20. Always figured out a way to crush rivets. Now Im thinking of getting some rivet jaws. I made my own once and threw them away after. They worked but not so good. Welded a flat spot on some bolt cutter jaws and hogged out the rest with a grinder. I used a air hammer on the easy rivets, dimpled the end of a cut off air hammer bit. |
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Originally Posted By roninsan: Ok, today was the big event, pressing my first AK barrel. I used a Toth Tools barrel press tool, and having learned from watching a gazillion Youtube videos, I began. It went fine until....the threaded rods on the tool bent!! I thought I was putting too much pressure on the thing but the barrel was going in nicely, so I took the thing apart, straightened the rods and tried again. Still had issues with the brass jig that goes into the barrel want to twist, causing the whole tool at the muzzle end to twist. Frustrating. Anyway, I managed to get the thing reassembled, and holding the thing with a crescent wrench, I pushed the barrel the last few millimeters in and stopped to check headspace. I tried Go, No Go and a loaded cartridge. (Firing pin removed.) I thought I must have done something wrong, because the thing was snug, very little free movement, and the bolt turned easily on the Go gauge. I tried it with and without the carrier and it was perfect. I scratched my head wondering how I could have possibly got it right the very first try. I checked it dozens of times. Then I drilled the barrel pin hole, cleaned it out and reamed the hole to 7mm. I looked perfect. Pin went right in with a few taps from a hammer. Tight, but not too tight. Headspace checked the same. Feeling empowered, I took the FCG template, clamped it onto the receiver, and drilled all the holes. Took me a minute to realize one side was larger than the other for the pins to lock in. Duh. The selector hole was a bit of a challenge, and I've yet to see a video of anyone drilling it, but I had a factory Arsenal AK to compare, and I figured that out too. Didn't look as neat and clean as the factory gun, but it works. No idea why the drill bit didn't make a more perfectly round hole. Anyway, I am happy with the results of my first try at an AK, I of course won't know for sure if I did it right or not until I shoot the thing, but so far, so good. Next is the Occam Defense adjustable gas block. Looks like that should be a challenge as well... My Toth barrel tool did the same - I removed the barrel and noticed some galling where the rivet was creating more friction - I'd swear I'd cleared it good but evidently not enough and squished the rivet down again - went in much better after that. |
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I got my receiver from Childers, they had a special with the trunnions and trigger guard already riveted in. Cheating I know, but it made this build so easy not having to do the rivets. They looked great, so I don't know why I hit a snag with about 3/8" of barrel left to go in. But it didn't want to budge. Had I had it in a hydraulic press I may not have noticed it and screwed something up. After I adjusted the jig, straightened out the bent threaded rods and tried again, it went in. Hit the head space damn near perfect first try. I screwed on an old thread protector and whacked it with a hammer twice and the fit was perfect. No wiggle on the bolt and she turned into battery smoothly. I was going to tackle the adjustable gas block today, but yesterday evening I noticed a bumper crop of muscadines were ready to pick, and If I don't get them the deer will! Maybe I can get back to it tomorrow. I already have the tool Occam suggested I get to ream the bore of the gas block to fit the barrel, so I'm hoping that goes as smoothly as the barrel did. I'm going to hit the receiver with some grey rattle can to cover the bare metal where I drilled the FCG holes, just so it doesn't rust. The receiver came parkerized so I don't have to worry about that, just where I drilled through. I also have to figure out the gas port hole, but I'll do that when I get the Occam rail so I can use the gas tube as a jig for the hole placement. One thing I've learned doing this, is that if you take the time to read what others have done, and watch videos until your eyes fall out, building an AK isn't hard, you just have to take your time, and fit everything by hand. Files are your friend, so is grease, and headspace gauges are a must. While not as easy as an AR, I find the end result much more rewarding. Anyone wanting to try it, should. I'm definitely doing another one. |
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Well, todays update was intended to show all the progress I made, but it turned into "Anyone know how to fix this" post. So after using a bore lapping tool to expand the inner diameter of the adjustable gas block, (I don't have access to a lathe) I finally got it opened up enough to tap it onto the barrel. Now, I had carefully laid out all the parts so I could determine where to drill the gas port. I measured multiple times, to make certain I had it right. And, I added in a few millimeters to make sure the gas piston had clearance inside the gad block to prevent it from banging the block when in battery. I think there's supposed to be something like 2-2.5 MM clearance. So I very carefully tap the block onto the barrel, actually get the ports lined up near perfectly, insure the block is straight on the barrel, and drill and pin it. I was so proud of myself again pulling off a difficult task on my first AK build! The I put the BCG in and slide it home. Yeah, you guessed it, there's now a gap, ever so slight, between the BCG and the trunnion, and I can feel the piston bash the inside of the gas block when it closes. Son-of-a-...... Short of trying to adjust the gas block and redrill the pins, do I have any other options to fix this? Can the face of the piston be shaved down? Can the piston be set deeper into the BCG? This is perplexing as I did my best to ensure there was clearance, only to find out I somehow lost that when I installed the gas block. Any suggestions? |
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Awesome! Your safety lever holes turned out much nicer than mine did. I don't know why, but mine are kinda ragged. You won't see them though so no big deal. I got a solution from Brian at Occam Defense for my gas block screw up. He suggested that since my piston is bottoming out in the gas block, that I drive out the pins in the GB, tap it forward, put a 2-3 MM shim on the face of the gas piston and tap the block back until it bottoms again. Make sure the BCG is tight against the trunnion, mark the GB location and re-pin it. Then when you remove the BCG and take off the shim, it will now have the correct gap between the piston and the GB. He said I may have to drill another gas port, but the GB will cover the original hole and seal it off. I may also have to re-drill the GB pins, but the GB will cover the slots in the barrel that I first drilled and not be seen. I wish I had had the foresight to put the shim on the piston in the first place, then I wouldn't have to be re-doing this whole process. Live and learn. It is my first AK so... Anyway, that's a free tip to anyone doing their first build! |
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Originally Posted By roninsan: Awesome! Your safety lever holes turned out much nicer than mine did. I don't know why, but mine are kinda ragged. You won't see them though so no big deal. I got a solution from Brian at Occam Defense for my gas block screw up. He suggested that since my piston is bottoming out in the gas block, that I drive out the pins in the GB, tap it forward, put a 2-3 MM shim on the face of the gas piston and tap the block back until it bottoms again. Make sure the BCG is tight against the trunnion, mark the GB location and re-pin it. Then when you remove the BCG and take off the shim, it will now have the correct gap between the piston and the GB. He said I may have to drill another gas port, but the GB will cover the original hole and seal it off. I may also have to re-drill the GB pins, but the GB will cover the slots in the barrel that I first drilled and not be seen. I wish I had had the foresight to put the shim on the piston in the first place, then I wouldn't have to be re-doing this whole process. Live and learn. It is my first AK so... Anyway, that's a free tip to anyone doing their first build! Sounds about right. You may get off easy with just drilling new pin holes. |
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Well, I got the gas block sorted out. I managed to move it forward a little, got clearance for the gas piston, everything lined up fine, and I redrilled the pins. Turned out fine. The next step was turning down the muzzle and threading the barrel. I got an annular cutter from CNC warrior, and the threading tool from Carolina Shooters supply. Now, it took a long time to turn down the barrel, but it turned out fine. The next step was the threads. That went fine too, until I tried to thread on a thread protector until I got my flash hider. It would not go on. I couldn't figure out what was wrong, until I started really eyeballing the muzzle. My heart sank and I couldn't invent enough cuss words. There is ever so slight an angle to the last half inch of barrel. I'm assuming the annular cutter wasn't straight on the barrel, even though it looked straight. The last half inch of my barrel literally droops. Now, sorting this out has run its course. The gas block can't go any further back, or I'd have to get a shorter piston. Even if I do that, there's probably not enough barrel to rethread. Disaster. Despite being a hard core, I-can-do-it-myself guy, I had to eat humble pie on this one. I called the guys at Arms of America, where I've been getting almost all my parts, and told them my problem. They agreed, I screwed up the barrel. Probably not fixable if I'm still going to use the Occam Defense 8" rail. After banging my head against the wall for a few minutes, I broke down and ordered another barrel and the populating service from AOA, packed up the rail system and the parts they need to headspace it, and will mail off the parts in the morning. An expensive as hell lesson, but I have to admit, I hit my limit. If this was a standard rifle build, with no shortening and turning the barrel, just press in a rifle barrel, headspace it, and install the rail, I'd be good to go. Got it figured out. But doing a pistol build with a chopped rifle barrel was beyond my capability. Live and learn. My next build will be a rifle, and I already know it'll go alot smother. Even with this expensive, hard lesson, I'm pressing on. |
| Oh I'm not giving up! I've made mistakes with every build I've ever done, ARs, Ar10s, Glocks, I'm still screwing around with a 1911 I started on 2 years ago!! Damn thumb safety tuning kicking my butt. But I'll get it sorted out. Have the battle is proving you're smarter than the machine... |
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