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Posted: 4/10/2020 4:24:56 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: As the title says I’m pretty new to AKs, I only have one a yugo opap. Other then disassembly for cleaning and lubing I don’t have much experience with them. I picked up a Romanian MD65 underfolder kit off midway that I want to SBR and have a few questions. Up until researching here I had only really looked at Childers receivers but I see on here nodak is pretty popular. Can you go wrong with any of the well known companies that make receivers? I’ll probably get a barrel from akbuilder and have it rethreaded 5/8x24 but I guess I’ll have to decide on a length once I get a gas block/site and take some measurements? Lastly what FSB should I be looking at? I’d like something 90 degrees like a Draco so I don’t have to run any longer of a barrel then necessary. How does one know what FSB fits what? Guessing it goes off gas tube and barrel dimensions? I’ve built 2 SBR ARs and I’m working on an 80% at the moment but never messed with AKs other then pulling the trigger. I tried reading through the stickies but it seems most of them are dead. Childers is fantastic. I’ve read nothing but good about them, and the receivers I’ve received are great. And there are good generic 80%s (Arms of America has some nice Polish ones) if you aren’t worried about the markings. Since you press on the components, you can pick the barrel now. Measure the trunnion, and if it’s 23mm wide (use calipers, a thousandth of an inch matters), you can use a standard barrel. AK-Builder, Arms of America, Centerfire Systems, and Green Mountain all sell them, I can’t tell you one is superior (I don’t have the experience), but you can get new Polish or Romanian barrels or US manufactured. Green Mountain has all of the specs, but with a Romanian kit a standard barrel should be fine unless the Trunnion is oversized. You should have a front sight block, and can measure for interference fit with your barrel. Same with the gas block, which I assume if what you meant while discussing the 90 degree turn. You can find new ones online, if you want a pistol or SBR build, but for a rifle you can install a 16 inch barrel off the bat with what you have. I’d start with YouTube (some options are in my build thread here) for more information. Building is a lot of fun! And the kits tend to multiply like ARs do... good luck! |
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Posted: 4/10/2020 11:48:07 AM EDT
[#2]
Post a pic of what you want the end product to generally look like.
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Posted: 4/10/2020 12:54:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Childers is fantastic. I’ve read nothing but good about them, and the receivers I’ve received are great. And there are good generic 80%s (Arms of America has some nice Polish ones) if you aren’t worried about the markings. Since you press on the components, you can pick the barrel now. Measure the trunnion, and if it’s 23mm wide (use calipers, a thousandth of an inch matters), you can use a standard barrel. AK-Builder, Arms of America, Centerfire Systems, and Green Mountain all sell them, I can’t tell you one is superior (I don’t have the experience), but you can get new Polish or Romanian barrels or US manufactured. Green Mountain has all of the specs, but with a Romanian kit a standard barrel should be fine unless the Trunnion is oversized. You should have a front sight block, and can measure for interference fit with your barrel. Same with the gas block, which I assume if what you meant while discussing the 90 degree turn. You can find new ones online, if you want a pistol or SBR build, but for a rifle you can install a 16 inch barrel off the bat with what you have. I’d start with YouTube (some options are in my build thread here) for more information. Building is a lot of fun! And the kits tend to multiply like ARs do... good luck! Just finished reading your build, very insightful thank you for sharing! As far as the gas block and front sight goes I won’t be using either that come with the kit and instead want to use a 90 degree combined gas block and front sight so I can keep the barrel as short as possible. |
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Posted: 4/10/2020 1:01:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Post a pic of what you want the end product to generally look like. Should be pretty close to this minus the dong grip as my kit has the regular handguard.  bank of commerce locations
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Posted: 4/10/2020 2:34:21 PM EDT
[#5]
Well...unfortunately you’ll need a good number of new parts:
A new gas block/FSB combo. A new piston (and probably bolt carrier assembly, unless you want to remove the old riveted piston and rivet the new pistol piston in place) A new pistol rear trunnion (so you’re not making a rifle). There may be more, I’m unsure, but those are the changes I see in my pistol kit. I know AEnemaBay has more experience than I do, so he may be able to help, but I just purchased a pistol kit, and built my original AK kit to original specs to avoid other issues. |
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Posted: 4/10/2020 2:43:00 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well...unfortunately you’ll need a good number of new parts: A new gas block/FSB combo. A new piston (and probably bolt carrier assembly, unless you want to remove the old riveted piston and rivet the new pistol piston in place) A new pistol rear trunnion (so you’re not making a rifle). There may be more, I’m unsure, but those are the changes I see in my pistol kit. I know AEnemaBay has more experience than I do, so he may be able to help, but I just purchased a pistol kit, and built my original AK kit to original specs to avoid other issues. I am making an rifle, SBR so none of that changes. Also I was planning on running an adjustable piston for suppressed use anyhow. |
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Posted: 4/10/2020 2:44:57 PM EDT
[#7]
Another +1 for Childers, thats all I use these days.
I've heard good things about recreator too but never used them. |
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Posted: 4/10/2020 3:49:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Sorry, saw the picture and missed the stock. Depending on the length, make sure you have the right piston length - adjustable is right, but a standard AK piston requires about a 12.5 inch barrel, so if you want less, you’ll need a different piston, gas tube, and front handguards. If you don’t want to go that low, you’ll still need a combo front sight and gas block to get as low as possible without that.
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Posted: 4/10/2020 5:03:16 PM EDT
[#9]
No worries. I was going to use a combo front sight gas block regardless, like the look and how far back they sit on the barrel. KNS offers lots of different piston lengths so I figure I’ll have to get everything else sorted out before measuring for piston length.
Setting mine up like pictures above wouldn’t allow me to use the handguards and gas tube that come with the kit? Looks like what they used is close to or the same as what my kit will come with. |
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Posted: 4/10/2020 5:15:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No worries. I was going to use a combo front sight gas block regardless, like the look and how far back they sit on the barrel. KNS offers lots of different piston lengths so I figure I’ll have to get everything else sorted out before measuring for piston length. Setting mine up like pictures above wouldn’t allow me to use the handguards and gas tube that come with the kit? Looks like what they used is close to or the same as what my kit will come with. I can’t tell lengths from the picture - if you can find a 12.5 inch barrel, you may be able to use what you have. Much shorter, and you would probably need new front furniture - I was going off the “any longer than necessary” statement. The rifle piston is just too long if you go much (or any) shorter on the barrel than 12.5 (not an expert, just measuring my parts). The typical 10.3 inch M4 QCB barrel length is too short, and you’d need pistol equipment. Fortunately, getting that isn’t super expensive, but it’s an extra cost. |
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Posted: 4/10/2020 5:20:53 PM EDT
[#11]
Recreator blanks are awesome as well
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Posted: 4/10/2020 5:22:30 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can’t tell lengths from the picture - if you can find a 12.5 inch barrel, you may be able to use what you have. Much shorter, and you would probably need new front furniture - I was going off the “any longer than necessary” statement. The rifle piston is just too long if you go much (or any) shorter on the barrel than 12.5 (not an expert, just measuring my parts). The typical 10.3 inch M4 QCB barrel length is too short, and you’d need pistol equipment. Fortunately, getting that isn’t super expensive, but it’s an extra cost. I already figured on buying extra stuff to make everything work so that’s not a big deal, I want to build a nice firearm so this definitely isn’t a budget build. I know it’s apples to oranges but the m92 pistols run a 10” barrel and it runs past a normal length handguard so I figured this would be close to the same. I can’t imagine what’s pictured is longer then 12.5” but maybe I’m wrong. |
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Posted: 4/10/2020 5:24:24 PM EDT
[#13]
Also thanks for the input on receiver manufacturers guys! I’ll most likely go with a Childers as that’s what I’ve been looking at. I’ll have them engrave my trust info so that’ll already be done when I get the form 1 approved.
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Posted: 4/10/2020 5:30:17 PM EDT
[#14]
If you want to measure, take your front trunnion, RSB, piston, and gas block/fsb, and connect them. Measure from the inside of the front trunnion to the end of the gas block, and add about 3/4 of an inch for headspacing, and you have about the minimum length.
And I have heard great things about the adjustable pistons. Another option would be to get the Definitive Arms adjustable gas block/FSB, which does the same thing a little more cleanly. If you want to minimize cost and keep the length minimum with as many parts as-is, it’s probably going to do that since you’re already going to buy a FSB/Gas Block combo. Good luck! |
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Posted: 4/10/2020 6:00:19 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And I have heard great things about the adjustable pistons. Another option would be to get the Definitive Arms adjustable gas block/FSB, which does the same thing a little more cleanly. If you want to minimize cost and keep the length minimum with as many parts as-is, it’s probably going to do that since you’re already going to buy a FSB/Gas Block combo. This is what I was going to suggest as well. Since you're already set on a combo block, this would be the better route, IMHO. The added benefit is that it's adjustable without having to disassemble the rifle. You won't be able to thread it 5/8x24 as is with a standard AKM/AK-100 pattern barrel without using a thread adapter. In addition, since you're not going an SBR or pistol route, I would use the standard length gas piston and piston guide that came with your kit, along the lines of this so as to be compatible with the greatest amount of accessories that you may want in the future: 
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Posted: 4/10/2020 6:20:35 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you want to measure, take your front trunnion, RSB, piston, and gas block/fsb, and connect them. Measure from the inside of the front trunnion to the end of the gas block, and add about 3/4 of an inch for headspacing, and you have about the minimum length. And I have heard great things about the adjustable pistons. Another option would be to get the Definitive Arms adjustable gas block/FSB, which does the same thing a little more cleanly. If you want to minimize cost and keep the length minimum with as many parts as-is, it’s probably going to do that since you’re already going to buy a FSB/Gas Block combo. Good luck! I didn’t know anyone made an adjustable gas block for AKs I had only seen guys talk about adjustable pistons and even that was just recently, that would work out great thank you! |
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Posted: 4/10/2020 6:23:47 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is what I was going to suggest as well. Since you're already set on a combo block, this would be the better route, IMHO. The added benefit is that it's adjustable without having to disassemble the rifle. You won't be able to thread it 5/8x24 as is with a standard AKM/AK-100 pattern barrel without using a thread adapter. In addition, since you're not going an SBR or pistol route, I would use the standard length gas piston and piston guide that came with your kit, along the lines of this so as to be compatible with the greatest amount of accessories that you may want in the future: https://atlantic-firearms-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/media/sylius_shop_product_original/product/ak47-hybrid-jmac-rifle-jpg.jpg I didn’t know adjustable gas blocks were a thing for AKs, definitely a more convenient route. But I am going the SBR route with this. Why couldn’t I have the barrel threaded 5/8x24? It doesn’t have to be that pitch I just wanted something more common for QD suppressor attachments. Edit: I see what you’re saying after looking at the gas block, it’s for a 15mm barrel and 5/8” is larger then 15mm |
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Posted: 4/10/2020 7:01:34 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But I am going the SBR route with this. Ah, sorry. Must have skipped over that. I forgot that JMAC also makes an adjustable version of their combo block now, but the DA one is definitely more refined: https://www.jmac-customs.com/gbc-13-without-detent-hole-adjustable/ |
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Posted: 4/10/2020 7:30:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Obviously I don’t have any experience with either but the DA one looks considerably nicer and easy to operate.
So I guess so far on my list of necessary purchases I have a Childers receiver and DA adjustable gas block. Once i figure our barrel length I’ll look a little more in depth at those too. |
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Posted: 4/11/2020 3:16:02 PM EDT
[#20]
Kit showed up today, everything looks pretty nice and complete. Tomorrow I’m going to clean everything up with a soapy water mix.
Can I get a shorter gas tube that’ll fit my upper handguard? Something that doesn’t stick out from the handguard as far, that in turn will move the FSB in and allow me to run a bit shorter barrel. 
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Posted: 4/11/2020 10:01:02 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can I get a shorter gas tube that’ll fit my upper handguard Yes. A Draco gas tube (essentially what's on the underfolder you posted earlier) is shorter and is standard enough that you could find a piston for it from CNC Warrior. The only problem would be finding a Draco gas tube. You can cut down a regular tube, but it takes a little skill to flare out the mouth without splitting the metal. |
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Posted: 4/11/2020 10:04:32 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. A Draco gas tube (essentially what's on the underfolder you posted earlier) is shorter and is standard enough that you could find a piston for it from CNC Warrior. The only problem would be finding a Draco gas tube. You can cut down a regular tube, but it takes a little skill to flare out the mouth without splitting the metal. I was actually thinking a draco gas tube would work and was trying to find one earlier |
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Posted: 4/11/2020 11:22:50 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was actually thinking a draco gas tube would work and was trying to find one earlier Sent you an IM. |
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Posted: 4/11/2020 11:59:50 PM EDT
[#24]
Thanks to @AEnemaBay I bought a draco gas tube. Once I have that and the combo gas block/sight I should be able to measure for a barrel right?
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Posted: 4/12/2020 12:36:57 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks to @AEnemaBay I bought a draco gas tube. Once I have that and the combo gas block/sight I should be able to measure for a barrel right? No problem. Luckily, if you're going to use a Draco length gas tube is helps "sets" the length for you. Here's a new Romanian CHF-CL 12.5" barrel that will fit the shorter tube/piston perfectly: https://www.cogunsales.com/product/ak-sbr-12-barrel/ Here's the correct length piston you'd need as well: https://www.cncwarrior.com/Draco-gas-piston-p/24231.htm |
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Posted: 4/12/2020 12:43:55 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No problem. Luckily, if you're going to use a Draco length gas tube is helps "sets" the length for you. Here's a new Romanian CHF-CL 12.5" barrel that will fit the shorter tube/piston perfectly: https://www.cogunsales.com/product/ak-sbr-12-barrel/ Awesome! The length of the DA adjustable fsb will still allow me to use a 12.5” barrel? |
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Posted: 4/12/2020 12:50:27 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Awesome! The length of the DA adjustable fsb will still allow me to use a 12.5” barrel? It should, given the barrel is meant to use a Draco style combo block and they're all around the same size (except for AKSU pattern combo blocks). The barrel listed doesn't have the gas port drilled, so you have wiggle room to move it around a bit. When you get to that point I can do the front end work for you if don't want to tackle it. |
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Posted: 4/12/2020 1:00:44 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It should, given the barrel is meant to use a Draco style combo block and they're all around the same size (except for AKSU pattern combo blocks). The barrel listed doesn't have the gas port drilled, so you have wiggle room to move it around a bit. When you get to that point I can do the front end work for you if don't want to tackle it. If you want it it’s yours man, appreciate the offer! |
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Posted: 4/14/2020 12:20:54 AM EDT
[#29]
Would you guys mind helping me put together a list of tools I’ll need for the build? I’m going to leave the barrel work and head spacing to a pro so the only thing I should really need is rivet tool right?
I have a lot of regular tools and punches as i wrench on a lot of vehicles and also have a 30 ton shop press. Not that I should need them for this but I’m also a pretty good welder and have a tig and multi process mig machines. A good friend is also a machinist that makes me a fair amount of stuff. |
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Posted: 4/16/2020 4:00:20 PM EDT
[#30]
Anyone have any input on tools? I know ak builder would have everything I need but wanted to see if there was something else someone thought worked better, or if there were other tools that were thought necessary? Any input is welcome
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Posted: 4/16/2020 8:13:47 PM EDT
[#31]
I've had most tools throughout the years, and currently, I use the Toth Tool bolt cutter jaws for short rivet, and the Toth Tool long rivet jig with my shop press for long rivets. I will sometimes need to break out the AK-Builder jig for special jobs, but it's pretty rare at this point. Other things I use a lot are the Robert Forbus press plates, but I got those before I got a milling machine, so now I could make those pretty easily. There are quite a few specialty tools I've machined or purchased as well, but those are really for convenience's sake and aren't really required.
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Posted: 4/16/2020 8:29:33 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've had most tools throughout the years, and currently, I use the Toth Tool bolt cutter jaws for short rivet, and the Toth Tool long rivet jig with my shop press for long rivets. I will sometimes need to break out the AK-Builder jig for special jobs, but it's pretty rare at this point. Other things I use a lot are the Robert Forbus press plates, but I got those before I got a milling machine, so now I could make those pretty easily. There are quite a few specialty tools I've machined or purchased as well, but those are really for convenience's sake and aren't really required. Thanks for the response. So you think it’s worth getting the two separate toth tools instead of the AK builder tool for a few bucks more? |
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Posted: 4/16/2020 9:04:35 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the response. So you think it’s worth getting the two separate toth tools instead of the AK builder tool for a few bucks more? I'd probably get the AKB set since it comes with some extra bits that you might need. I'd also get the AKB trigger guard rivet jig. |
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Posted: 4/16/2020 9:11:29 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd probably get the AKB set since it comes with some extra bits that you might need. I'd also get the AKB trigger guard rivet jig. Fair enough, thank you sir. Anything else i should consider? |
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Posted: 4/17/2020 1:55:20 AM EDT
[#35]
Is the Start Up DIY AK Builder Tool Kit arms of america offers worth the $500? For some reason I can’t post a link.
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Posted: 4/17/2020 2:15:40 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the Start Up DIY AK Builder Tool Kit arms of america offers worth the $500? For some reason I can’t post a link. You would end up using all of that, yeah. I would get it all from AK-Builder, though. If you buy through them with a registered account you get discounts on other stuff, like rivets and some accessories for the tools. |
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Posted: 4/17/2020 3:12:04 AM EDT
[#37]
Good point, I’ll do that thank you.
I’m going to order a Childers receiver shortly once I see exactly what needs engraved for form 1 purposes. I was going to get an 80% receiver but figure there isn’t much point since it’s being put on a form 1 anyhow. |
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Posted: 4/18/2020 5:45:02 PM EDT
[#38]
Got my draco gas tube today, it’s only 5/8” shorter then the one that came with my parts kit. I was hoping it’d be shorter but I suppose it’ll do.
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Posted: 4/19/2020 4:14:55 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got my draco gas tube today, it’s only 5/8” shorter then the one that came with my parts kit. I was hoping it’d be shorter but I suppose it’ll do. https://i.postimg.cc/hPb6q1ZB/8-A69-F5-B1-39-D8-4439-A83-F-70-A5-C36-BF3-AA.jpg The problem with going shorter is that you would need a custom made gas piston, or possibly have part of a Draco gas piston turned on a lathe at one of the piston rings. Going to the next standard piston size would no longer allow you to use standard AKM/AK-74 handguards which then also complicates attaching the lower handguard. You could go to AKSU length, but that will require an AKSU specific rear hinge block w/AKSU specific hardware, hinged receiver cover, gas piston, handguard retainer, and handguards. You can take your full-size gas tube and shorten it as I mentioned earlier in the thread (with flaring the end), but you'll need a custom piston turned for you. |
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Posted: 4/19/2020 5:10:43 PM EDT
[#40]
I wouldn’t go shorter to the point of changing handguards. I really like the look of the M92 pistols where the fsb is pretty much against the handguard and there’s no visible barrel between the handguard and fsb.
But like you said I’d be looking at a custom length piston, which wouldn’t be the end of the world but I do prefer to be able to use off the shelf parts. |
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Posted: 4/19/2020 11:18:19 PM EDT
[#41]
Ordered a draco piston from CNC warrior and and an adjustable fsb from definitive arms.
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Posted: 4/27/2020 9:01:24 PM EDT
[#42]
Got my definitive arms adjustable FSB, looks like a nice piece which it should be considering the price. From the back of the front trunnion to the front of the FSB is just shy of 12.5”. How far into the front trunnion does the barrel get pressed?
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Posted: 4/28/2020 3:45:37 PM EDT
[#43]
I’ve used Childers and
Recreator. I like the Recreator receivers but Childers is nice as well. |
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Posted: 4/28/2020 8:25:09 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve used Childers and Recreator. I like the Recreator receivers but Childers is nice as well. Why do you prefer recreator receivers? Does anyone know when my pictures will start showing without someone approving them? |
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Posted: 4/29/2020 10:38:38 AM EDT
[#45]
I like the simple builds.
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Posted: 4/29/2020 11:57:31 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I like the simple builds. I’m not sure if my build is simple or not? The only thing I’m changing is the fsb and barrel length |
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Posted: 5/3/2020 12:11:08 AM EDT
[#47]
12.5” barrel should look perfect on that, thanks for sharing the pics as you go.
ETA: To answer your question about how deep the barrel sits in the trunnion, obviously each build is a bit different because proper headspace determines the depth. That said, I checked 4 different AKM builds in my stash and the depth from the closest vertical face of the front trunnion to the chamber face of the barrel was pretty consistent from 0.66 to 0.68 inch. I did not measure from the front of the trunnion itself but this should help a bit with your mockup. Here’s a pic from a new Palmetto AK-E:  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/3/2020 8:45:31 PM EDT
[#48]
Awesome thank you!
I enjoy sharing just as I enjoy viewing other people’s builds, plus if I’m way off base with something someone is sure to let me know. I really wish I would’ve joined this forum sooner there seems to be a lot of good and really helpful people here. |
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Posted: 9/10/2020 1:24:01 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The problem with going shorter is that you would need a custom made gas piston, or possibly have part of a Draco gas piston turned on a lathe at one of the piston rings. Going to the next standard piston size would no longer allow you to use standard AKM/AK-74 handguards which then also complicates attaching the lower handguard. You could go to AKSU length, but that will require an AKSU specific rear hinge block w/AKSU specific hardware, hinged receiver cover, gas piston, handguard retainer, and handguards. You can take your full-size gas tube and shorten it as I mentioned earlier in the thread (with flaring the end), but you'll need a custom piston turned for you. AEnemaBay I tried sending you a PM but I don’t believe it’s going through, if you wouldn’t mind helping me out a bit more I’d appreciate it. |
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Posted: 9/10/2020 1:33:10 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AEnemaBay I tried sending you a PM but I don’t believe it’s going through, if you wouldn’t mind helping me out a bit more I’d appreciate it. Yeah, I didn't get anything. If you want to get someones' attention you can also "@" them. Like this: @Jnull That should send them a message that you mentioned them. But I'll drop you a line. |
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