I know in PA we dont have to do a background check on pistols if your father gives you one. The thing is I was told that you cannot CCW the pistol unless you go through a PICS check. Is this true? If so sure be damned if I can find the law that says it.



Anyone in the know? TIA

http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/PA/18/II/G/61/A/6111/sale-or-transfer-of-firearms/



(c) Duty of other persons.––Any person who is not a licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or county sheriff's office, the latter of whom shall follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and grandchild.



If it's legal to be given the gun by your father I don't see why you would need to transfer it for use as a CCW. You legally own it.

Thats what I thought. I couldnt understand why you would have to do a PICS transfer if you already legally own it. I mean what if its left in a will right? Oh well got to love gunshop lawyers.

as someone who just was involved in a case involving a father to son transfer and the police sucking complete dick on knowing any law.... dont do it.

Care to elaborate a bit?

No details=useless post.

to the op - NO pics check is required to possess a pistol in PA.
                   
                  NO pics check is required for Father to son transfers.

                  NO firearms are linked in any way to a PA CCL.

Obviously when you apply for a CCL they do a background check.

Father to son transfers in PA are 100% legal, and no paperwork is required. Provided of course the person receiving the firearm is able to legally possess the firearm.

There is no requirement for the firearm to be transfered to the other person before it can be carried.

I will remain somewhat vague but lets start out with i am the son in what was a father to son pistol transfer.

I was 19 when this whole situation occurred, including the transfer, I am 20 now. Actually it was like a year ago last week.

I was detained for carrying without a license, the weapon was not on me but in my girlfriends residence where i was spending the night.

One event led to another with the police showing up, no i did not hit my girlfriend nor was she in anyway involved.

The police officer who arrested me claimed and insisted that i was not allowed to have the weapon, or transport it in anyway. Furthermore he said it was registered to my father, something the state has no right to do, and i called him on it.

Let's just say the police do not like being told they are wrong by a 19 year old kid, and like to think the are the highest form of authority.

I now have 18 months of ARD probation for doing something which was completely legal, because one of here roommates was possibly corrupted by that cop who detained me that night.

While it is not illegal, i would recommend that you don't do it mainly because of the lack of knowledge from everyone else not on this forum.

Owning and possessing a handgun are two different things if you are under 21.



You can own it, but your mistake was taking it to your girlfiends house. If it were in your place of residense there would have been no problem.



You should have figured this out by now.



A post on the PAFOA:

1. You can purchase and possess a handgun at age 21 (State and Federal law)



2. You can own and possess a handgun at age 18 (no transfer required if a gift from parents or grandparents)



3. You can own but not possess a handgun under 18 (no transfer required if a gift from parents or grandparents, or inheirated) unless accompanied by legal adult at a range, during hunting, etc.



4. You can own and possess a handgun at age 18 if given as a gift (see #2) but a transfer is required if given by anyone else. If the 18 yr old is doing a private purchase (not buying OTC at a shop) this is still not allowed as it is a purchase and you have to be 21 to purchase. This is where it confuses many FFL's.

I'm not trying to nit pick or argue OlCrow, but your post has contradicting information. Statements 2 and 3 are almost completely the same, however one says you can do one thing and the other something completely different.

In my defense her house was my temporary place of abode, something which is listed as an exception in PA law, i just don't feel like finding it right now.

I mean when it comes down to it its all in the interpretation of the law, and the man with the gavel. I still stand behind what I did as being legal, but I'm just looking out for someone else who might have the same thing happen.

I'm not worried about the forum members here, but the assholes who think they "know" the law and what they know is right.

I don't think stopping at your girlfriends house qualifies as a temporary abode, although it could possibly be argued as such. Lacking a PA LTCF the places a person can transport an unloaded firearm are quite limited.


(4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with a firearm, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the firearm is not loaded.

8) Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair, sale or appraisal or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police), or to a place of instruction intended to teach the safe handling, use or maintenance of firearms or back or to a location to which the person has been directed to relinquish firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a licensed dealer's place of business for relinquishment pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S § 6108.2 (relating to relinquishment for consignment sale, lawful transfer or safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a location for safekeeping pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108.3 (relating to relinquishment to third party for safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm.

True. However seeing as I was staying over night and she was in the center of the state on my way to MAAC in Harrisburg, the housing thing should have held.

It would have been much like staying at a hotel, where that temporary abode falls into place mainly

 Assuming this is all accurate and true , everyone here has great sympathy for you.
You were RAILROADED.

That said, this injustice will affect you for the rest of your LIFE , unless you fight it.

I urge you to find some people with a good public reputation to write to The PA ATTORNEY GENERAL'S office on your behalf.

And perhaps someone on this board could put you in touch with an Attorney?

You were not in your home and you were not accompanied by legal adult at a range, during hunting, etc..



There is your problem. You are not allowed to have it in a motel or your girlfriends home if under 21. I didn't write the laws, just trying to explain to you why you had troubles.

I'm following what you are saying OlCrow. I will still say that it goes to the individual interpretation of the law though and this one is tricky.

And AksRule, i had a lawyer, the DA of the county was hellbent on screwing me over and word for word what he said to my lawyer as he tried to work a deal the first time...

"This kid just screwed his whole life."

I am on ARD probation now which will be expunged, and I will go on to get my commissioning in the Marine Corps and hopefully it will disappear forever.

I tried reading this reference from PAFOA but I can't determine when the law went into effect which is important to me as my father gave me a handgun several years before he passed away. This was quite a few years ago but does that even matter?

At this point, no.  The transfer was and is legal under the law.  Assuming you are currently over 21, this would not be relevant.

Sheriffs are the LAST people in PA to ask about firearm laws.

Once again, there is no need to explain anything. The handgun does NOT, nor is it required to be registered to the person carrying it. As long as my wife has a LTCF, she can carry any firearm that I bought or own. Nothing will come back to her. You can also lend a firearm to another person as long as they too have a LTCF. There is no "proving" who its registered to as the database is NOT one of ownership.

What if they person moved into PA from another state. None of the handguns would be in the "database".

As long as you were both residents of PA, there is no transfer requirement between parents/grandparents and children/grandchildren.

Ah you better look up lending a pistol to someone in PA.





EDIT My bad I missed the part about the lendee having a permit.

Here they seem to have to straighten people out when it comes to the laws. In PA they are supposed to be the agency that you go to for firearms related law. That may well vary throughout the state.



Trust me when I say the PSP dont always know what their ass when it comes to the gun stuff. I had an issue 15 years ago and had to wait for them to send a trooper from the next county because he was their "firearms" guy.

Father/sons come into my shop all the time to transfer to each other. Being the honest guy I am... I tell them they are not legally obligated to perform a transfer... but I'd gladly take their $25 if it makes them feel better.

In most states you can sell ANY firearm with out a background check.  When I move back to PA I am not going to "register" i.e. transfer any of my handguns I bought legally while I was a serving abroad.  I have a couple handguns i bought that cannot be traced back to me and its 100% legal.  If my roommate buys a pistol doesn't like it and sells it to me nothing wrong with the law about that...

PA is only messed up gun law wise in this one and only aspect.

You don't "register" any firearms in PA.

However, any sale of a handgun in PA must be done through a FFL. If your room mate sells you his firearm in PA, it must go through a FFL. If you don't....you've committed a crime. Actually, you've both committed  crime.

The whole point of having the ability (not the obligation) to transfer a firearm from person to person is to pass "liability" on that other person buying the firearm (that and it's required by law).  In PA long guns (or shotguns) can be sold or given away without any form of paperwork.  This is great and all, except that if that person goes nuts and kills people, guess who's getting arrested for straw purchase? Especially if your name is the one the S/N # comes back to off that long gun/shotgun.  That transfer paperwork at a dealer is worth at the very least that much and then some considering the headache you may have.  Its like insurance.

Nope no crime happened, we live in AR.  Most states you can sell anything you want (minus NFA) without transferring it.  I just stop by this forum every now and then, I am a PA resident and try to spend 30 days a year back there.

Not true. Transfers of handguns in Pennsylvania can also be done by county sheriffs, who are not FFLs. See 18 PA C.S. §6111 (c) below.



(Bold added by me.)

"Firearm" is defined in 18 PA C.S. §6102:

Yes, I know sheriffs can do the transfers, but most will not. So I'll stick with my answer than any transfer of ownership that takes place within PA (except for spouse to spouse, parent to child or grandparent to child) must be done through a FFL.

If you bought the firearm in State "X", bring it to PA then decide to sell it to someone in PA, it must be transfered.

I'm fully aware of the definition of  a firearm. Actually there is more than one definition of a firearm, but for our purposes here a firearm is a handgun.

A straw purchase is one person buying a firearm (rifle, shotgun, handgun) for another person who cannot legally buy/possess/own a firearm.

If you buy a firearm (rifle/shotgun.....no transfer needed), and give it or sell it to someone, that is not a straw purchase.........provided........the person was not prohibited from owning said firearm.

Also, while no transfer is need for a rifle/shotgun, the current owner must still make sure the person getting the firearm is not a prohibited person.

Sorry for bringing up an old post but I'm curious.  According to this post, it is legal to own AND possess a handgun beginning at age 18.  Am I missing something?

I may not have been clear, if the person you "sell" the rifle/shotgun to goes out and commits a crime, and the S/N# comes back to you, you will be charged will straw purchase.

That would be why a simple bill of sale would be a good idea.  Not required, but you could at least show that someone took possession of an old gun of yours, be it a handgun to a parent or a long gun to someone from the hometown forum.

I gave my dad a 1911 I had for his birthday and just wrote up a quick document stating neither one of us was a prohibited person, and we both agreed to the transfer of xxx gun with yyy serial number described as zzz on the date of transfer.  Both of us signed and dated two copies.  I got one and he got one.

Not only legal, but provides proof the handgun is not legally mine any longer as of the date of the agreement.  That way I can't claim he stole it from me later on, and he can't claim he never bought it if something were to happen with it.

Why would it be a straw purchase??? Your not understanding what a "straw purchase" is. The fact that the person commits a crime with the firearm does not make it a straw purchase. If I want to buy my son or brother a firearm for Christmas, I can legally do that. They are both permitted persons, in that they could have legally bought the firearm on their own. The fact that they commit a crime some point after they receive does NOT make what I did a straw purchase.

A straw purchase is one legal person buying a firearm for another person who cannot buy/own/possess the firearm on their own. That is the definition of a straw purchase. Whether or not this second person commits a crime with the firearm has no bearing on what a straw purchase is.