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Posted: 1/2/2010 5:13:45 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I mean come on why wont any of the big ammo companies get off their asses and start pumping some out? it isnt like there isnt a huge demand for the stuff? Just my rant for the night, sorry if I sound like a little bitch. Oh by the way I was looking over my Gemtech manual the other day and they say IMI makes some but is it still being imported? and yes I know Fiochi makes 158 im talking about the other companies. Cheers Austin I don't know about the Fiochi, but the IMI 158 gr is a little on the high pressure side. HK in days gone by have said to never use any Israeli made ammo in their guns (specifically the MP5), and this was not simply xenophobia. I have not performed chamber pressure measurements, but when shooting the 158 IMI, I found that the web at the base of the case was blown out about 0.015" and would no longer go in a shell holder after firing (I reload). The stuff was actually made for open-bolt subguns. I also understand that in Europe, special locking pieces are available for use in the MP5 with the 158 IMI. The 147 is pretty standard. Virtually all stays subsonic in a pistol-length barrel. For longer barrels (7+inches), you may need to experiment and pick your brand. In the past, I have handloaded some 158 (actually 160 gr) RN, but without running it through a pressure barrel to make sure it meets SAAMI specs, I would hesitate to share my actual load. It is possible to cook up some bullet/powder combos that will really shorten the life of your weapon, and some of these weapons today are worth too much –– more than trying to save a little on iffy ammo. Just my opinion. |
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Posted: 1/2/2010 6:45:50 AM EDT
[#2]
From an energy perspective, 147gr is better. I tested IMI and Fiocchi 158 grain over 3 years ago compared to 147 Gr loadings. See my post here: http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21667
From a historical perspective, note that years ago 9mm was considered to be ineffective to be suppressed since 147 and 158 grain 9mm didn't exist yet. Ciener's UZI suppressor was considered the first successful UZI suppressor since he used a ported barrel w/ standard velocity ammo. This bled the gasses into an expansion chamber and slowed the bullet down to subsonic velocities. The Israeli's were the first to come up w/ a heavy 9mm load which was swaged .38 special rounds.....hence the 158 grain. Later other manufacturers came up with the 147gr projectiles. Since the Israeli's were already setup for 158 grain, they continued to use that loading. Again, looking at my thread I posted above, if you calculate the weight of the 158 projectile and the velocities obtained in those loadings by IMI and Fiocchi they both yield lower energies than 147 grain loadings. |
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Posted: 1/2/2010 7:58:38 AM EDT
[#3]
Maybe a dumb question but I'll ask it. Why 158gr ammo? Is there anything special about it? Or is it just a heavier round? I understand the whole debate about heavier rounds and just wondering if this just that.
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Posted: 1/2/2010 8:36:27 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Maybe a dumb question but I'll ask it. Why 158gr ammo? Is there anything special about it? Or is it just a heavier round? I understand the whole debate about heavier rounds and just wondering if this just that. I think he's looking for subsonic rounds in 9mm. I use 147 exclusively because I only shoot 9mm suppressed and I can load them up to fly subsonic VERY easily with a variety of powders. I've never even looked for anything heavier because the 147 projectiles are cheap and easy to find. cheers, Benji |
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Posted: 1/2/2010 1:47:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Maybe a dumb question but I'll ask it. Why 158gr ammo? Or maybe a follow-up on that question: does that extra 11 grains make any appreciable difference? What is the intended purpose? Is it hunting? Paper punching? Animal control? Super-duper high-drag / low-speed operator type? I've shot a few hundred of the Israeli stuff, and a few hundred of the Fiocchi stuff. I can't tell any sound difference between those and the 147 gr. stuff. After all, they're both subsonic. I've only got one box of the Fiocchi left, and I'm thinking I should shoot some of it over the chronograph to see just how fast it really is going. It may be that the 147 gr. stuff does have more energy, as Amphibian suggests. FWIW, I found that Berrys Bullets makes a 150 gr. plated RN for the .38 Super that works great in all of my subguns and handguns. |
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Posted: 1/3/2010 9:42:04 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
I've shot a few hundred of the Israeli stuff, and a few hundred of the Fiocchi stuff. I can't tell any sound difference between those and the 147 gr. stuff. After all, they're both subsonic. I don't notice any difference either, but 158gr Fiocchi will cycle my 92FS with a fixed-mount T9, while the factory 147gr loads I have tried do not. Fiocchi 158gr is the only factory subsonic I care about due to its performance - I just load my own 147gr subs otherwise. |
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Posted: 1/3/2010 1:02:06 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Maybe a dumb question but I'll ask it. Why 158gr ammo? Is there anything special about it? Or is it just a heavier round? I understand the whole debate about heavier rounds and just wondering if this just that. That question was answered, in great detail, in the post above yours. |
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Posted: 1/3/2010 3:12:30 PM EDT
[#8]
I have a 170 grain 9mm that was specially made for the Beretta m9, the guy making it did it for a military contract and he went out of business afterwards.
I also got a 200 grain 9mm from him also. Both cycle the beretta just fine. It can be done and it has been made but it is doubtful anyone has tried to reproduce this load. It would be nice though.....it took me nearly 4 months to get it from the guy who was selling it. |
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Posted: 1/3/2010 4:16:10 PM EDT
[#9]
All in all 147 does just fine in my Sbr AR but I find that it goes super sonic from time to time in my buddies 16 inch AR. Im new to class 3 for the most part and talking to guys that have far more experience 158 stays subsonic regardless of barrel length. I just felt like ranting a bit. I just find it odd that more mainstream companies don’t produce it when fiochi cant keep it in stock.
Cheers Austin |
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Posted: 1/4/2010 12:11:11 AM EDT
[#10]
What is the appeal of the 158?
It seems like 147 works fine and is cheaper because everyone loads it. |
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Posted: 1/4/2010 5:03:47 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
What is the appeal of the 158? It seems like 147 works fine and is cheaper because everyone loads it. I think the appeal is that you can be sure that 158's will be subsonic in almost any barrel. For instance, I tried some Winchester Ranger 147's through my 9" TROS with a can. They were not subsonic in the longer barrel. 158's probably would be. It's really not an issue if you reload since it's easy to make subsonic 147. That's what I do. If you are enough into shooting to drop $$ on a can and tax stamp, sooner or later you are going to reload so I'm not sure how big an issue it is. Even if all you want to do is make subsonic 147 you can still get a Dilon Square Deal or something and get set up without breaking the bank. |
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Posted: 1/4/2010 8:41:12 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
I think the appeal is that you can be sure that 158's will be subsonic in almost any barrel. For instance, I tried some Winchester Ranger 147's through my 9" TROS with a can. They were not subsonic in the longer barrel. 158's probably would be. Winchester Ranger is rated as a +P+ loading, and so is much hotter than standard 9mm ammo. If it is a matter of trying to find 158 gr. ammo vs. finding subsonic 147 gr. ammo, it is going to be easier to find a variety of 147 gr. stuff that stays subsonic in an individual barrel. If you are concerned, buy a box of ammo try it out before buying a whole pallet of the stuff. 
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Posted: 1/4/2010 8:51:31 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think the appeal is that you can be sure that 158's will be subsonic in almost any barrel. For instance, I tried some Winchester Ranger 147's through my 9" TROS with a can. They were not subsonic in the longer barrel. 158's probably would be. Winchester Ranger is rated as a +P+ loading, and so is much hotter than standard 9mm ammo. If it is a matter of trying to find 158 gr. ammo vs. finding subsonic 147 gr. ammo, it is going to be easier to find a variety of 147 gr. stuff that stays subsonic in an individual barrel. If you are concerned, buy a box of ammo try it out before buying a whole pallet of the stuff. Fortunately I had only one box of the non-hollowpoint truncated cone stuff. I didn't realize it was +P+ and if it was marked so I didn't notice it. That would certainly explain why it was loud! |
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Posted: 1/4/2010 3:44:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Winchester Ranger is rated as a +P+ loading, and so is much hotter than standard 9mm ammo. RA9T - the most typical Ranger 147gr load - is a standard-pressure 147gr JHP. It is NOT +P or +P+. |
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Posted: 1/5/2010 8:06:11 AM EDT
[#15]
Some reason you can't/won't reload your own?
BTW - 9mm can be loaded with up to 180 grain bullets. I know because I have done it. Bob King was selling them for a while - they were hardcast 180 rns intended for .357 mag & resized to .356". Its been a few years (bob's been out of business for a while) but we loaded them over ultra-fast powder at about 1.160" - they function & fired fine from the locked-breach guns we use in USPSA (ipsc) and IDPA. As far as pressure, the 9mm in a locked breach gun can take TREMENDOUS pressure. Factory Hirtenberger L7A1 9mm 124 gr will go faster than 1330 FPS out of a locked breach pistol. We used to load 124s faster than 1400 FPS for USPSA - and locked breach guns CAN take it (certain ones anyway) - so the cases certainly CAN take it. Blow-back guns change everything. Follow the books if you load for a blow-back. Here is the thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17864 Anyway here is a thread about loading 160s: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90041&hl= Stop complaining & start reloading. |
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