I'm currently working in Afghanistan.  It looks like I may have the opportunity to buy antique weapons at the bazaar at Camp Eggers that are legal to ship back to the states.  

What are the clues to tell if the weapons are authentic vs. Khyber Pass copies?  I remember seeing an article someplace (perhaps Shotgun News?) that showed what to look for.  Anyone have a copy of that article they could pdf & send me, or is there anything on-line?

Thanks!

The only real way, if it's an option for you, is to take your terp/handler and go down town or better yet, get out of the city and have them take you to a real arms dealer (gun store) in a smaller town.  Additionally, all of the foreigners are paying way too much (as in relative fortunes) at the bazaars, but since they will, that's the market price.

After putting significant effort (with stateside, AF and PK help) into identifying the fakes from "real", I've come to the conclusion that unless you are truly an expert/collector in the type of firearm you are looking for, real from fake cannot be determined.  Even if you find an information source for all of the proofmarks found on a weapon, the smarter manufacturers know this as well and make sure their copies have all of the correct marks.  Obviously I'm talking about good fakes...the Enfields with backwards "N"s are obvious fakes.

That, and the 'ghans can make a decent copy of just about anything.

I've dug around in a lot of weapons storage "yards" (with everything from sabres to FROG missiles) and even in the weapons siezed from the warring factions when the Northern Alliance and AMF were dissolved you often find fakes.  In other words, guys were carrying whatever they could bet their hands on, "real" or otherwise, and they all got scooped up.  I once went in a yard with a British LTC who was looking for some Enfields to make a plaque for his general and after going through a couple of conex boxes of them he gave up and just picked the two best looking ones.

Be certain of what you will be allowed to ship; when the 82nd rolled in a year or so ago they significanlty curtailed what can/not be shipped...no more Enfields, Martinis, etc.  You are basically left with the flint locks/muzzleloaders.

My advice would be to haggle down to a good price on something you like the looks of and hang it on your wall as a souvenir...after all, "real" or otherwise it came from Afghanistan.

You might want to send an IM to RustedAce here on ARF, he knows a bit about a-stan.

get copies of skennerton's martini booklets and study carfully. When I was there the keys to finding the fakes(the majority were or at least 50-50) the proofs on the left side of the barrel should be from the same maker- all e for enfield or b for birmingham a barrel with a mix of b and e proofs signals a fake.also there is a website that helps look up kyber pass and you'll find it

Sounds like a great approach, but not really an option.  I'm a contractor, and our PSD team takes a hard line on where we're allowed to go - basically our villa or whichever base we need to go to for work-related requirements.  I only get to see the outside world from behind a window.....

"khyber pass" guns in reality are few and far between. Even "gun valley" in pakistan couldnt meet the demand. Hajji doesnt live in a vacuum. he knows he can charge more by saying a gun is a khyber pass model. Its mostly bullshit. American Joe can't tell one shitty pakistani gun from another so don't pay too much and don't come home telling all your friends about your incredibly rare, handmade "khybar pass" gun...you know, hand made in the mountains for poor villagers to fight oppression. Bullshit. It was crudely made in a factory then "thrown down the driveway" because Joe parts with his money a lot easier if he can imagine a swashbuckling story to go with it.

The real bargains in the stan are weapons that filtered down there from other places. Back in 03 Me and a buddy went to a gun merchant out near Salerno. he bought a real no shit M1 tommy gun with 3 mags in the leather bandolier for $200. Then played hell getting any .45acp ammo for it. I bought a Sterling SMG for $100 with 3 mags and ran NATO ball through it like a champ. They were F/A so we couldnt bring them back but we handed them of to our replacements who were overjoyed.

go here

good british linky

forum is a bit slow,
but lots of good info in the british flint section,

Well, I threw myself out there.  I'm guessing it's a copy, all the stamps seem decent and mostly matching, but the bore is terrible.  For the price ($60) it's a great wall-hanger....

That rug is so ugly.  I love it.

Never let a woman give you grief over that.

That rug is for the floor of my room here in the 'stan - after that it's destined for the man cave.  There's *no* way my wife would ever let it out in the rest of the house.......

There was an article awhile back in the Shotgun News about telling the difference between the real deal & a Khyber Pass knock off.





They had pics comparing real British Martinis & KP copies & the stampings on the KP made ones were sloppy looking, while the British rifles had stampings that were clean & straight (Your receiver stampings look like the British example in the article). But then again, there may be KP rifles that have clean & straight stampings on them for all I know, since I've never been there....

 

a clue is the ICI stamp- on a true martini carbine(only saw one or two real ones while there) on a true  carbine it should be IC1 -so yes a kyber. and avoid the jingle guns like the plague- with all the extra decor this devalues them worse- 60 bucks for a wall hanger is ok I guess- I bought all of mine with the intention of shooting them and have shot them with no problems- (no kyber pass fakes) . look on the opposite side of the gun on the frame and barrel I bet you will see a mix of the b and e under crown "proof marks" I mentioned above. If you want a good gun to shoot look for a good condition french lebel 8mm lebel is fairly easy to get and reload in the states and the rifles shoot pretty good. The barrel date is what was used when I was there to dfeetermine antique status- so make sure a barrel date of 1898 or earlier is present- if the area looks ground or scrubbed with uneven numbers/letters it is likely a post 1898 rifle with the original barrel date removed and a new one restamped -very common. also arms and the man had a good article about afghan guns in the last year or so.

ps relating to what killeb6 said- I disagree- reading and understanding the history of and markings of british small arms of the colonial era is going to help you most- most of the gun dealers.terps and bazaar vendors there don't understand much except they are making a killing on old guns. there are a few that know  more and can get more genuine items or unusual stuff. Most of my purchases- all genuine french or british stuff fullly functional no kyber copies- were all under 200 bucks except for 3 all correct snider mkIII rifles that went to the 300 range and a choice pattern 53 rifled musket all original with like 60% blue for 350. when you get the good stuff- all correct matching- olny buy from a vendor who will let you disasemble and inspect the gun on the spot-these guns are still a bargain!- a decent p53 for example in the states will run you 800 bucks plus.with the muzzle loaders you have to be careful about fake relacement mainsprings and fake barrels as well as fake lockplates.
a couple of the crazy things I saw there- one guy had a real london address colt 1851 navy revolver in fair to good condition-but wanted 1k for it- can get better condition guns in the us for about the same or less. Another vendor told me he had a winchester- so I am thinking old 73, 76, or 1892-what does he show me but a recent production 1894 angle eject carbine probably made within the last 15 years but looked like it had been dragged behind a truck for 50 miles!

Is it easy for you guys to import them back to the US?

Hard for me to say this but I like it.  The rifle not the rug.  

the story I have currently is that a command subsequent to when I was there in 2008 made it a lot harder. When I was there in 08 we got a sign off form from the jag and mp's. we filled them out the mp's stamped it and we went to the post office and mailed them back.Someone there currently would have to comment on the rules in force right now-Anyone?

Anything made before 1898 is not a gun, in the ATF's eyes.



So all that's needed, is .mil approval to take it home...