Not too long ago, Stef sent me a couple pictures of a heavy-barreled AR-10 configured as a machine gun. He tells me these "Marinier's" models were capable of firing belted ammo.  In his own words, "It was able to use mags or beltfed both but not at the same time. You could hang a devise on the left side of the weapon after you opened the rifle and there was a slot on the left side of the upper and lower where the belt went thru. It had a metal handguard and a extra handle like the FAL mounted in front of the carryhandle because of the balance with the heavy barrel."




While discussing variants, he also mentioned that he has visited the Legermuseum (Dutch Army museum) and that they have an excellent collection of AR10's.  In fact, he said, "they have a collection of every model ever made. Around 30 different models and all prototypes. Also one that came from Stoner himself and had the special flashhider. Also one that has the charging handle like the AR15 and one in 7.62x39 and uses AK mags."

Well, that was enough to send me to the Legermuseum website to fumble around with their search engine. They don't have a lot of online photos, but I decided to share everything they do show, complete with my very humble translations of the Dutch descriptions and/or a few comments/observations.
Some of these may look similar to one another, but look closely and you'll see a lot of differences.

LEGERMUSEUM PICS:


10-01:  Automatic, center-fire rifle system, Armalite AR10, with bipod and bayonet lug.  Caliber 7.62x51.  Made by Artillery Inrichtingen (AI) from 1958 until 1965.

I don't believe those dates are accurate (all info I've found shows AI ended their AR10 production in 1960).
Notice that this bipod is similar in appearance to the M60, and check out the flash hider. Can't tell if it's a 3-prong like the AR15's or more like the later AR180, but it's definitely simpler than the longer flash hiders with the built-in grenade launcher rings.



10-02:  Notice the similarity in stock profile between this one and the "type A" for a 601.



10-03:  Automatic, center-fire rifle system, Armalite AR10, with wooden handguard and flash hider with grenade mount.

Note this does have the flash hider that works as a grenade launcher, but the front sight base does not appear to have the lug for mounting the grenade sight.



10-04:  Machine gun system, Armalite AR10, belt-feed, with "reserve barrel"(?), caliber 7.62 x 51. (Serial number 000884?)

Looking at the that bipod and flash hider, I sense an FAL influence––but that looks like a folding buttplate, a la M14.

My translation skills may be completely failing me here, but I'm taking a reference to a "reserveloop" to meen a "spare barrel" or replaceable barrel.  Looking at the photo, I think this could make sense because that forward vertical grip might have been an aid to a quick-change barrel and that barrel nut is definitely different than any other variant I've seen.
Here's the original Dutch, though, for the native speakers among us…please feel free to correct my transalation:  "Mitrailleur systeem Armalite AR10 voor bandvoeding, met reserveloop, kaliber 7.62 x 51. Exact gelijk aan 000884. Volautomatische versie van het AR10 geweer met bandvoeding en zware loop."



10-05:  Automatic, center-fire system, Armalite AR10, with collapsible support (bipod) and flash hider with grenade launcher, caliber 7.62x51.  So-called "Portuguese model" with bayonet mount on top.

Note the handguards are molded with grooves to accept the bayonet legs when closed (similar to bipod-equipped FALs).



10-06:  Automatic, center-fire system, Armalite AR15, American Air Force, caliber 5.56 x 45. First production model.  Maker: Colt’s Patent Fire Arms Manufacturing Company, 1960-1963.

Stumbled across this while searching the site for "Armalite".  Nice to know they have one in the collection. Definitely painted furniture (you can see a bit of wear at the edges), but I can't tell from this pic if it's black or green. Type B stock, and I'm a little surprised that's not a waffle mag.



10-07:  Automatic, center-fire system, Armalite AR10, "green implementation".

Notice the shaved carry handle and what appears to be a scope mount.  I'd love to get a closer look at that.



10-08:  Automatic, center-fire system, Armalite AR10, with flash hider with grenade launcher, caliber 7.62 x 39.  Note Russian caliber.  In 2006, provided with small-capacity magazine in .308 NATO (?? Original Dutch: "In 2006 voorzien van een klein-capaciteit patroonhouder (in kaliber .308 Nato).").

Stef mentioned that the 7.62x39 version of the AR10 uses AK mags and was produced at the request of the Fin government before they decided to adopt the Valmet.



10-09:  7.62x51, 1958-60

Note no bayonet lug or grenade launcher.



10-10:  Automatic, center-fire system, Armalite AR10, bayonet lug with adjoining flash hider/grenade launcher, caliber 7.62 x 51.  So-called "Sudanese model" with bayonet lug on bottom.



10-11:  Automatic, center-fire system, Armalite AR10, caliber 7.62 x 51.



10-12:  Automatic, center-fire system, Armalite AR10, caliber 7.62 x 51.



10-13:  Automatic, center-fire system, Armalite AR10, green implementation with accomodation for a scope.  Served at Prince Bernhard.

Perhaps someone can explain the link between the AR10 and Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands?



10-14:  Semiautomatic center-fire system, Armalite AR102 Sporter, with shortened mag well, caliber 7.62 x 51.

Note the lack of any flash hider on this Sporter.  Different than the ones in our previous thread.



10-15:  Automatic, center-fire system, Armalite AR10, with wooden handguard and flash hider/grenade launcher, caliber 7.62 x 51.

It also appears this one has a unique upper and completely different style charging handle––no "inverted trigger"!



10-16:  Automatic, center-fire system, Armalite AR10, original Fairchild prototype, caliber 7.62 x 51.  1958-1959.



10-17:  Machine gun system, Armalite AR10 with heavy barrel, caliber 7.62 x 51.  (Serial number 001146 ?) Full-automatic version of the AR10 gun with belt-feed and heavy barrel.

Note the extra FAL-type carry handle, forward of the AR carry handle. As Stef points out, it's a helpful addition since the heavy barrel moves the rifle's balance point several inches forward.




10-18 and 10-19:  Automatic, center-fire system, Armalite AR10, caliber 7.62 x 51, cutaway for instruction.



10-20:  Semiautomatic center-fire gun, Armalite AR10, caliber 7.62 x 51. Bolt is missing.  the weapon was built according to the Portuguese model, but the muzzle device is more correct for a "Sporter" version.

Along with the bolt, the charging handle appears to be missing.
While this flash hider does not have grenade launching capability, notice that the front sight base has the lug for a slip-on grenade sight.


...OK, so all of these add up to tell me a couple things.  First, the Ar10 family with all its variants may be the ultimate unobtanium collection.  And second, I have got to plan a visit to Holland!

Very cool!  Nice to see another one of those semi automatic AR102s

I'd like to see details of that last photo in the post, too. Another semi-auto, but without the angled mag well. From the description, it is an Armalite/AI, and the lower looks like a regular Portuguese design. But the pic isn't clear enough to tell if there was a sear pin hole so I can't be sure if it was originally a semi-auto or simply neutered.
Could be they made two semi-auto variants.

002477 has my heart.

Some AR102 Sporters were full-auto.  You can make out the sear pin.  Notice the colored indicators of safe, fire, auto.

Very nice, thanks for sharing, why do I find those far more exciting and any other AR10 in current offering?
Too bad they never saw wide spread use.  Our history books would be just that much more exciting!

Imagine, if Stoner had consolidated components of the 7.62 AR platform with the 5.56 AR platform many years earlier, à la SR25.

Tag for viewing on a real screen

Thanks Olgunner. Very nice.
About Prince Bernard. He was a very well known hunter and went to Africa many times to do some hunting.
At that time (1955-1965 don't know the dates excactly) he was also a big man in the dutch military and did a lot of lobbying for the army.
Because Artillerie-Inrichtingen wanted to sell the AR10 to the dutch army as the standard army rifle they probably gave the prince a few models.
I didn't know about the green Venzuela type (green furniture was made on request of Venezuela or was it guatemala in their trials) that it was part of the prince his collection.
What I know for sure is that he was given an AR102 sporter with SN 00033 And that number is not the 33th made.
I think they started at 30 or at 33.  (Don't know excactly)
A few years later he was to give up his post in the military because of a big payof afair with an airplane factory from the States.
If my memory is correct it was Nortrop or something.I might be wrong about that but they gave him a lot of money to make sure the dutch airforce bought their fighteryets.
This ended in parlement almost falling and big national disgrace and prince Bernard had to take of his uniform and was not allowed to put it on again even at parades or things like that.
Yaers later,when there were almost no elephants and rino's left, he became ambassador for the WNF. World Nature Foundation.
He traded his rifle for a camera.
Mid 90's a few of his weapons came on the market and were sold for hi prices.

That sporter with the full auto function looks like a normal portugese with the magwel cut by some one else than the factory.
The rollmark looks different than a normal sporter or is it just me?

Now about the 7.62x39.
The one I held in my hands was not like a normal portugese.
The magwel was just like the sporter or similar,to take the AK mags
The rifle was shorter also than the portugese version.
In my memory it was not much bigger than the carbine.
But then again ,that's my memory.

Olgunner, I will try to find that pic of the 7.62x39 and send it to you.

Very interesting pictures. Many I have never seen before. There is much to study. Thanks for sharing. The Portuguese military issued the AR10 to some units fighting in the colonies.

Those rifle's issued were the last variant made by Artillerie-Inrichtingen.
It had all the malfunctions taken out and was sold to the portugese in a batch of 1800.
Some other people say there were 3300 sold to them.
The price at that time $123,- or was it $125   I have to look at the bill I have for that.
But because these were sold to the Portugese , we now call those rifle's the Portugese type.
Same with the Sudan models. They were sold to sudan at that time.
The Portugese rifle's came back to Holland late 70's and early 80's.
A lot of them past by England to end up in Canada and the States, and a handfull found there way to civilian shooters in Holland.

What can you tell me about the Guatemalan model?

This is an original parts kit on a USA semi auto lower receiver.

The Guatemalan's are so much a mystery to the Dutch.  There are very few over there, most are here.  

I have heard many Dutchman call them Cubans or Nicaraguans.

Wow

Looking at the LMG HB variants it seems pretty clear now where the inspiration for the top HG for the XM148 came from... great pics.

Some great photos there, nice find. There are quite a few AR10s in NZ, where I live. Mostly Portuguese and Sudanese models. They've all been made semi but not permanently. Along with ex-army SLRs they were used for deer hunting.

This is mine. I shoot it at service rifle.

Wow!  Those are some fantastic looking rifles.  Both the museum pictures and the ones some of you lucky folks have.
Thanks for posting these.

The guatemala version is like the sudan but with a special request from the guatemalan goverment for ventholes in front of the flashhider.
Also the bipod is a bit different and looks like the m60.
They might call it Cuba because a batch of rifles was send to cuba just before Castro took over.
I heard something about finding those rifles on the body's of revolutionarys on beaches but I don't know if that was Nicaragua.
I thought it was the dominican republic  but not sure. oh oh my memory

My sentiments exactly.  Thanks Al.

Stef!


Have you ever seen the Guatemalan bipod?  I must see one!  I can not figure how it attatches since there is no smooth section north of the front sight. I have seen many Guats with bipod recessed handguards but they all have had plain (nonwinged) front sight bases.

A bunch of years ago, I had some correspondance with an AR-10 collector in the Netherlands who gave me some quantities.  I don't know if they were quantity ordered, produced or delivered.  But, his statement on the Guatemalan AR-10 was that 200-500 were purchased for the Military Cadet Academy, and sold through Interarms.

He also placed the number of 7.62x39mm rifles made for Finland at six to ten.

Here is a closeup.  It would be an interesting project to create an AR15 upper like this that would accomodate the typical Colt or clone scope in this same manner.
I plan to take it apart and might convince a certain lathe genius around here to make some reproduction captive nuts.


To have any chance of using this upper/lower combo I am in dire need of the elusive Sudan charging handle.

Man, you guys really make me want an AR10, or at least a few parts to start with. This is not going to end well for my checkbook.

This is of course not it, I don't think they were ever produced, there is an immediately recognizable flaw with the bipod mounting bosses welded to the bottom of the FSB, you can't rotate the rifle to change the  mag. All subsequent bipod designs are built around a sleeve that mounts over the early Dutch and Portuguese style flash hider/barrel shroud, I feel that the parts from these rifles were left overs thrown together to be available for evaluation, 'get it to the feild we'll fit it there' was the montra of the industrial complex in the fifties. The pic does illustrate how a Porto bipod and hand guard evolved over time. The Dutch pictures above illustrate how very many veriations of the rifle were explored with less than ten thousand produced including prototypes practically everyone is a prototype.

Then why so would many Guat handguards have recesses for the bipod legs?

Man, that is beautiful!

Hi Hhollow.
The bipod attatches to the fsb. see pic's 002308 and 002317.
In my memory they are almost the same but the Guatamalan goverment had some special request.
I think you can read about it on erik's site.
What was it.......hamar68@xs4all or the other way around

I think my previous pic is the 'Guat' bipod HG its origin being Dutch army first generation and test models, they made many more HGs than necessary. The FSB w/the bipod bosses welded on it were much earlier testing and development parts, they had many of those on hand too since they were esentially dead parts. (I do not believe they were intended to go together). Now all of a sudden the Guats are asking for a sample set for testing and a couple hundred are put together with parts onhand. The museum pictures illustrate how intercahngable the two basic designs are and what Armalite/AI was willing to do to get a contract. From a manufacturer's view point getting product out the door and using stock onhand are what make money. During testing and eval designs are improved and solderized to handle the demands of combat, the samples serve as a starting point, oh we want that, we don't want that, we like this but its got to be stronger... similiar to the evolution of the AR15 from Air Force to A4. The Guats while a 'variation' are mixmasters of a sort in my specualtion built with what was onhand. I seem to remember the production numbers including sales sample lots for the AR10 are listed in 'The Black Rifle' book since I don't own a copy maybe someone will post them here.

I believe it was the Dominican Republic as well.  When confronted by the Dominicans, Sam Cummings (Interarms) tried to turn it into a sales opportunity.

Here's what a Sudanese sniper upper looks like mounted on a rifle, sans the Delft Scope. I gave up on getting a Delft scope after looking for years, and bought a standard infantry upper from Pete Wilke. I sold the upper to HHollow. I sure hope he gets a scope for it!

Sudanese sniper build progress

Got these parts, in order of acquisition:
1. Already had a lower, was going to use it on a Portuguese but the pins were not right.
2. Sniper upper from fellow member Malysh
3. flash-hider, barrel shroud, buttplate, all from "Lance"
4. hinge pin and bolt catch traded from fellow member olgunner
5. rest of lower parts kit borrowed from Porto project
6. buffer assembly borrowed from Porto project
7. bolt-carrier assembly purchased on GB for arm+leg

Needed:
a) attempting to trade a fellow member for handguard
b) found barrel and nut, no deal yet,
c) Wiill use a Porto pistol grip although it will look like crap
d) Might have found a front sight base

Will probably never find:
e) No gas tube anywhere
f) No original buttstock
g) No charging handle anywhere

I still can't tell from the pics...is the "mount" a separate piece, or is it what's left after the rest of the carry handle is milled off?  Is that a screw wheel underneath it?
Any chance one of you has photos of the top of the mount?

The Sudan sniper carry handle has the crap milled out of it.  However, the remainder is actually thicker than a normal carry handle so a plain infantry upper can not simply be milled into a sniper upper.  The knurled nut is captive, held in place by a c-ring.  Some day I will disassemble the thing and beg my65pan to make me a few extra knurled nuts.  I think a NDS-32 would look great with such a mount and would load the upper out to nodak if they wanted to take a crack at it.

The sniper upper shown in the previous color photos is a very early version.  Below is a drawing of a later version where a small amount of carry handle was left in order to protect the rear sight.  The later sniper upper was used on Transitional AR10s and late Sudanese.  

I'm assuming a Delft scope would be correct? Cool stuff guys, thanks.

That would be nice but almost not to be found.
Delft Industries made a lot of those scope's under a nother name and they are to be found a little easyer.
It is called K.R.R 62 and officialy it's for the FAL.
The mounting of this scope is different but a mount could be made.
The scope itself is completely the same as the AR10 scope.

In over 5 years of looking I only saw 1 Delft scope made for the AR-10 for sale in the US. It went for about $3200. I seem to remember it had no mount, but I'm not sure after this much time.
Recently, a Delft scope for an early Mod 601 Colt/ArmaLite rifle was sold on Gunbroker. It is slightly different magnification than the AR-10 model, Of course, it had an AR-15, not an AR-10 mount. I also can't remember how much this one sold for. HHollow and I discussed it at the time.
Can you remember what it sold for?

The last Delft went for $1855.  It was for the Colt 601.

Link to old auction

So much awsomeness here!  

I love the Historical (Retro) forum here the most.  

How does that Fairchild era FH/MB thing work? I'm wondering it would be classified as a suppressor these days.

Hmmm...that's very interesting!

Aw, man!  This one just sold in December––and for "only" $820...and it even had the adjustment wrench I need for my Delft!

Great.  Another thing on my search list.  (Stef––let me know if you see one of these on the market over there!)

ETA more pics here. Different reticle than the Delft.

Such a nice scope - I never understood why they put them on that shitty receiver cover mount. I had no idea that they were the same scope as an AR-10 had. Great info!

It does not work. The purpose is to eliminate the flash completely. This works for let's say 2 or 3 mags.
Then the flashhider is so full of unburned powder as from residue that it will give flames almost 2 meters or yards long when fired.
It does not work as a surpressor so it would not be elegal.
But I was told it was a pain in the A to clean the thing and could not be done in the field.
The latest flashider (porto) also acts a little like a comp port to stay on target a little more easy.
Every one who ever shot that rifle knows how easy it shoots the .308 when shooting rappid fire. (not auto)
Even on auto the rifle doesn't kick like a FAL or G3

Fun photo here, taken at the Legermuseum circa 1993.  That's fellow boardmember Ar10Stef on the right, holding the "original rifle from Stoner".  In the middle, one of his buddies holds a Sudanese model, and on the left another friend holds the "real deal" 7.62x39 conversion.

Can you imagine going to a firearms museum in the States and asking if you can play with their prototypes on display?

Amralite is selling AR10B charging handles on their 'close out' page.
Not sure if it would fit or function in your upper.

No modern parts will fit the original AR10.  The closest thing that fits is the DPMS/SR25 magazines which will work in original AR10's after some minor modification. The present Armalite company started from scratch with their AR10, borrowing as many parts as possible from the AR15/M16 design.

(???)

Oh, look at me. Still young and handsome
Sadly it's not like you might think.
The AR10 collection is not part of the museums standard display.
There is one between the display's but that's all.
The AR10 collection is stored in the attick (did I spel this correctly)
We had to make an apointment with the museum to have a tour on the attick.
I wish I took more pic's.

oh crap...was in NLD this summer and didnt know about this collection

Are you kidding? I would rather get a tour of the attic of most museums than see what's on public display!
About the only way museums around here open themselves up like that is if you're a serious academic researcher with the right contacts...or a major contributor to the museum.

I'd love to take about a week's vacation and spend it in that attic with my digital cameras and digital calipers! There is information to be mined there!

Well maybe we can have a 50 years anniversary (Spelling?).
I can ask the museum to have a field day and ask the writer of the book we were talking about to suply us with info.
The last time we needed a group of at least 5 man.
Maybe if we make it a thread we can fil up a hole airplane.
Also invite some dutch AR10 owners and the next day make it a day to the range with some AR10's and end the day with a nice meal and lots of beer after a walk around at the old factory grounds.
This could be a nice tribute to Gene
Just a thought

Wow––I love this idea!
But I just popped over to the travel sites to check airfare to Holland!
The trip would cost me more than a nice early AR10  

Looks like this tour will have to go on my bucket list.