The popular movie would have us believe that a Gothic Serpent-era carbine used by Delta might have looked like this...



...but having perused the 'real deal' and BHD threads, I have not encountered a single actual period photo of a weapon with camo paint applied to the gun.  The closest I can find is the gentleman on the left in the photo below, who clearly has painted his optic (maybe a piece of personal, as opposed to issued, gear anyways) but not his carbine.



I also seem to remember having read somewhere that painting of issued weapons was strictly verboten during this period, but I cannot recall the source of this claim.  It was said that special units may have been granted more latitude in this respect.  So I call upon the collective wisdom and memory of the retro hive: can anyone point me to an actual 80s/90s period photo of a weapon with camouflage paint, or is this strictly an anachronistic invention of movie producers and hobbyists?

I am specifically concerned with paint.  I've seen plenty of examples of green or tan tape, usually used to secure light switches to handguards.

The JFK Special Warfare Museum doesn't count.  And Jim Dietz's, "Valiant Stand", however well-researched, is still a secondary source.  I am looking for primary sources if they exist.  Examples from the same general time period, but outside of the Somalia mission, would be acceptable.

The troops in the pic are all Rangers, correct? I think Delta probably did paint them. (No hard evidence to support it)

Your probably right.Special Forces do their own thing.Back then the Army frowned on painting anything but the stock or HG's.I've seen quite a few painted rifles from special forces units.

Period photos of Delta operators don't seem to indicate painting, near as I've been able to tell, you are correct that the paint is generally anachronistic.  A lot of "BHD" builds (including the first iterations of mine) tend to be something of a mix between the movie versions (well documented, and usually what gets people interested in the first place) and more "period correct" versions.  Incidentally, the movie generally seems to depict 3-75 using M16A2s (with exception of CPT Steele and the medic) while Delta uses "727"s.  Period photos tend to indicate that 3-75 was using RO727s with "A1" forging lowers, while the few photographs of Delta operators seem to indicate RO723s with notched .750 barrels.  

My "BHD" clone started out as just that, based on the film; now, it's more of a RO723 clone.  Eventually I'd actually like to build a replica of the exact rifle you've got pictured, an SBRed RO727 clone with Leupold scope, but I've got a couple other projects to complete before I get around to that one.  

Some Gothic Serpent period photos showing 700-series carbines:















~Augee

As have I, but as far as I know they are generally post-2001.  Or at least post-1995.

Correct but I would imagine that they did it pre 1995.Tell you what,I will ask a retired special forces guy that I work with.He ran the supply room for a long time so I'm sure he would know.

Just spoke to a friend of a friend who knows a guy "who was there" from Aug 93-Mar 94. All the rifles he saw being carried by TFR (3-75 & CAG) as well as all other US forces who were in country (10th Mountain, 5th SF Grp, JSOTF, USMC, etc.) were NOT painted. There were a few M40A1's painted but that's it. The whole painting of black rifles didn't start until late '90's when the SpecOps guys started painting theirs. If I recall correctly, it started with the snipers painting there bolt guns and then slowly turned into a disease. Sorta like RBRD.

I also looked through the 200+ pictures I took while there and not a single rifle is painted.

BTW, of the pictures Augee posted, only the 1st and 5th is of a CAG operator. The rest are 3-75. Those two are of the same person, Jim Smith, owner of Spartan Tactical and Alaska Extreme Safaris. Augee cropped the 5th pic that shows Jim with a wart hog he dropped with that 723. If any of you guys reading this like to hunt or fish in Alaska, Jim is a top notch guide. If you're a SWAT cop and want a lesson on how to run a black gun he's also the guy you should be saving your money to attend one of his classes. He's a true Warrior.

Can anyone ID the painted scope in pic #2 (gentleman on our leftmost side of pic)
Looks like a Leupold M3 - can anyone see it better?

Thx

It's a 10x42 Leupold Ultra M3A telescope sight. Same as used on the M24.

I'm not doubting you, I just found this phrase amusing.  Seems like that's how a lot of craziness on the internet gets started...

But in any event I expect that you (and your friend of a friend who knows a guy) are right, since that seems to match the available photographic record.  Thank you for contributing to this thread.

Have you ever considered scanning and sharing any of your personal pictures?  From such things the historical record is established (and the Hollywood misconceptions are cleared).  As someone who works with the collection/inventory of a developing military history museum, I have to say that it is often the common snapshots and ephemera of servicemen that are most valuable in establishing the sense of time and place that makes military history accessible to young people, students, the general public, and even the collectors such as you find here in the retro forum.  Also, we have to work now to share and preserve the memory of our recent military history before the record begins to be lost.

Sorry, should have noted that in my post, I guess I figured everyone would already know by looking.  

Thanks for pointing it out, and absolutely correct.  Needless to say, photos of "The Organization Formerly Known as Delta" are not the most common thing out there.  Other photos I've seen seem to bear out that carbines were not commonly painted until the CQBR / SPR time-period (1999 - present).  

ETA:  Flatdarkmars- I betcha I have some of the very earliest pictures of pre-production Lancer L5 magazines being used operationally before they were released commercially.  Circa 2007.

~Augee

A member directed me to this photo of SFC Earl Fillmore Jr. (foreground, right) in Gen. Schwarzkopf's PSD circa 1990/91.



I am not 100% sure if that is well-worn paint on the receiver and fiberite stock, or if it is just really heavy wear on the receiver and an aluminum stock.  The fact that the suppressor appears to match makes me favor paint.  So perhaps it is rare but not entirely unknown.

ETA:  Other photos of Schwarzkopf's PSD make it clear that the practice was certainly not universal:



Now that XM177E2 above is retro!  And further confuses the issue by making it clear that aluminum stocks were still in use.

flatdarkmars

I've been considering scanning them for years. Just haven't taken the time to do it. Here are two pictures from the OP K7 depicting my sniper partner and me with our combat load for each mission minus food and water. Notice the only thing painted is the M40A1 and that was done pre-deployment. I don't even remember us having paint over there.




Here's another of us getting ready to do some aerial platform overwatch over Mog with an A2 and Colt 4x.


Someday I'll get around to posting more. Most of mine depict sniper rifles, not black rifles and definitely not what I would consider retro rifles appropriate for this forum.

I would say no, mostly based on the pictures of Jim Smith posted above, and others I've seen.  Exceptions might be, especially Shughart and Gordon since they were snipers.  There is a painting by Jim Dietz called Valiant Stand of Shughart and Gordon with Mike Durant that shows them with a painted Colt 723 and painted M-14.  COnsidering Dietz was accurate enough to show the C7 style upper of the 723 I surmise he got the fact they were painted right as well.

Thanks for sharing the great pics - it's interesting seeing typical sniper loadouts. Are those 2gal canteens or SAW pouches? What kind of a scope is that on the A2 in the second and third pic? It looks like a Colt, but longer.  Thank you for your service, and we'd love to see any links to other threads if you feel they are not right for this forum.

ETA: I'd love to see more pics and know more about your commo gear BTW.

"I would say no, mostly based on the pictures of Jim Smith posted above, and others I've seen. Exceptions might be, especially Shughart and Gordon since they were snipers. There is a painting by Jim Dietz called Valiant Stand of Shughart and Gordon with Mike Durant that shows them with a painted Colt 723 and painted M-14. COnsidering Dietz was accurate enough to show the C7 style upper of the 723 I surmise he got the fact they were painted right as well."

SSeric02,

FYI, Smith was also a sniper, onboard Super 61, the first to go down. Jim's carbine was not painted. As stated above, some of the sniper rifles (like the M-14) in Mog were painted but I'd say all of that was done pre-deployment so the guys would not be detected on training stalks.  At the time, sniper rifles were the only weapons I recall the command letting us paint. By the time Dietz did his painting (I think '99) that order had changed and a lot of the equipment and weapons were being painted. I'd guess that the examples given to Dietz were painted hence his representation.

Morg,

Those are SAW pouches we used for carrying (6) 30rd AR mags. The scope on the A2 is a Colt 4x20. The comm gear is a AN/PRC-77 w/KY-57 crypto.

Check. Even as late as 2002, the only weapons we got away with painting were the 40s, and a maybe a SASR.

Wow - they're still using the Prick 77? Thanks for the info.

We were in '93! It was our primary comm to the TOC. I just noticed there is a Motorola SABRE to the left of the crypto too. Forgot we had those. We did have SAT comm as well as a SAT phone we carried to all the OP's as well. They were rather large and we didn't always set them up.

What spotting scope is that?  Also notice the (ATB) magnifier on the NVGs and the laser range finder next to the binos?

Just gotta ask... Is that a paracord 'support' in the last pic?

I forget the model of spotting scope. It was an 60x or 80x if I remember correctly. Yes, it's a 5x magnifier on the NODS. After being assigned to JSOC, we were issued alot of equipment that was not organic to USMC Sniper Plts.

GolfCrow,

You ever tried getting first round hits from a vibrating UH1 or UH60?!?! Yes, it's 550 cord we would use to help dampen the rotor vibrations. Not as bad when on the skidds of a Little Bird.

OK, saw these on believe it or not a Japanese airsoft site, but I figured to post them since they kind of look period correct, maybe the first gulf war.  Not painted, but looks like period cammo fabric utilized.

I'd agree, 90-91 time frame. The two are wearing chocolate chip desert BDU's and same used to wrap stock and HG's with what appears to be green "100 mile-an-hour" tape holding it in place.

Well, they're in good company with the whole camo cloth thing.

Just LOOKING at all that stuff makes my feet, knees, and back hurt...

nevermind... thanks wikipedia