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Posted: 9/12/2012 2:30:45 PM EDT
[#1]
I've read that the 6mm round is very accurate and flat shooting but I don't have any personal experience with it, although I've kicked around the idea of building a 6mm upper in the future.
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Posted: 9/12/2012 2:42:35 PM EDT
[#2]
You do realize .25MOA @ 100 yards is .25in, and that the diameter of the projectile is .223in...
You are basically asking for something that probably would need a bolt gun, and probably still more than $1500. Unless in absolute perfect conditions inside of a vacuum, would it maybe be possible to get a .25in group using .223in projectile. In theory of course, probably not ever in application. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 2:56:51 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
blah, blah. Can an AR platform shoot this good. Yes. But not with regularity. My budget is 1500 can I do this for 1500? Not likely. If not how much more do I need to spend? A least $2000 more including good glass, but not including the ton of ammo you will need to practice with. blah, blah. Additionally, can somebody give me some advice on the parts that I need to use to achieve this kind of accuracy? The finest barrel, bolt carrier assy, upper receiver, trigger, scope and rings you can find. Custom handloads that are proven in your rifle. blah, blah. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 3:00:29 PM EDT
[#4]
As stated, .25 MOA is pretty ambitious for a AR. Assuming you handload and that your budget doesn't include the cost of a good scope, .5 MOA is a reasonable goal. A first-rate barrel and trigger need to be the heart of your build. Talk to the fine people at Rainier, Larue, ARP, or Noveske. I'm sure they can put you on the right track. While I'm certifiably afflicted with BRD, I'm no precision marksman. I'm sure someone will be along shortly with more helpful info.
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Posted: 9/12/2012 3:01:18 PM EDT
[#5]
You might get .75MOA if you are that good but depends on how good the numb skull behind the rifle is. 1MOA is the standard I would say for which an AR is considered very accurate.
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Posted: 9/12/2012 3:07:02 PM EDT
[#6]
I would get a barrel (or 5) made by Krieger or Bartlein and chamber it in 6mm PPC.
I also wouldn't suggest drilling a gas port in it. At which point you basically have a magazine-fed, straight-pull bolt-action rifle. 
OP, can you load ammo consistently enough to produce .25 MOA? |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 3:33:32 PM EDT
[#7]
Eh. .25" with consistency is going to be a stretch as others have said.
What you are going to have to do is buy 10 or so Kreiger's from Compass Lake, Shilen's maybe from Rainier (UltraMatch), or Lothar Walther's either from Spikes or direct and test them all out and see which one is the best of the batch and then sell off the rest. Seriously. You could be promised a .5MOA barrel (probably) from buying just one of any of those barrels... but wanting a guaranteed .25MOA shooter the first try is probably going to cost you quite a bit and you'll probably have to have a shop build it for you with that sole requirement. I don't know of any factory rifles that come with a .25MOA guarantee, but Larue has been known to put them out in their Stealth uppers, OBR's, and close to it in their PredatARs. A quick google image search of "Larue test target" brings up this thread http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=2&f=219&t=160538&page=25 .182" 
My PredatARs target was only .417"
Also if we are talking about 3 round groups its within the realm of possibility, 5 round groups it'll be rare, 10 round groups good luck buddy. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 3:40:52 PM EDT
[#8]
The Colt CR rifle I handled at my LGS had a quarter inch 100 yard group with it. Not sure how common that is, and it was Pro Model (2000ish bucks retail)
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Posted: 9/12/2012 3:42:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Eh. .25" with consistency is going to be a stretch as others have said. What you are going to have to do is buy 10 or so Kreiger's from Compass Lake, Shilen's maybe from Rainier (UltraMatch), or Lothar Walther's either from Spikes or direct and test them all out and see which one is the best of the batch and then sell off the rest. Seriously. You could be promised a .5MOA barrel (probably) from buying just one of any of those barrels... but wanting a guaranteed .25MOA shooter the first try is probably going to cost you quite a bit and you'll probably have to have a shop build it for you with that sole requirement. I don't know of any factory rifles that come with a .25MOA guarantee, but Larue has been known to put them out in their Stealth uppers, OBR's, and close to it in their PredatARs. A quick google image search of "Larue test target" brings up this thread http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=2&f=219&t=160538&page=25 .182"
My PredatARs target was only .417"
Also if we are talking about 3 round groups its within the realm of possibility, 5 round groups it'll be rare, 10 round groups good luck buddy. This. And those groups are benched 3 rounds in a shooting rig. Most shooters wont be good enough to get that accuracy even if their rifle is capable of it. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 4:03:49 PM EDT
[#10]
$1500.00 should cover the optics.
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Posted: 9/12/2012 4:20:15 PM EDT
[#11]
Yea, don't we all. Ain't gonna happen.
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Posted: 9/12/2012 4:24:28 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Yea, don't we all. Ain't gonna happen. Bullshit !! My ONE shot group can do it all day long.
But I agree, it aint getting done with a 1500 dollar budget , even the best rifle in the world still needs perfect conditions to match that type of shooting over and over again, your talking shooter, weather, humidity, atmospheric pressures, etc etc. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 4:40:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
The Colt CR rifle I handled at my LGS had a quarter inch 100 yard group with it. Not sure how common that is, and it was Pro Model (2000ish bucks retail) Easter bunny, Santa, Bambi.....get my drift... 
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Posted: 9/12/2012 4:46:12 PM EDT
[#14]
OK so .5MOA is about the max for AR-15?Based on http://www.precisionfirearms.com/14.html they offer several uppers that are .5 or less capable. I need to expect to pay 1100-1300 for just the upper. Or around 2200 for a complete rifle. Is there a better value for a .5 MOA rifle?
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Posted: 9/12/2012 4:47:53 PM EDT
[#15]
There's far more to shooting .25 MOA than owning a gun capable of that accuracy.
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Posted: 9/12/2012 4:47:53 PM EDT
[#16]
I've had a Remington 40XBR, chambered in .222 Remington for about 40 years. It is built as a benchrest rifle with a free-floating 20" barrel that's 1 inch in diameter at the muzzle. The rifle is topped with a 20X Unertl target scope that's adjusted for no parallax at 100 yards.
I can shoot approximately 3/8" groups at 100 yards all day long with my rifle. I have shot 5-shot 100-yard groups measuring as tight as .160", but I wouldn't even guarantee my rifle as a 1/4 MOA rifle. I seriously doubt that the AR platform could do nearly as well as my 40XBR. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 4:51:24 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
OK so .5MOA is about the max for AR-15?Based on http://www.precisionfirearms.com/14.html they offer several uppers that are .5 or less capable. I need to expect to pay 1100-1300 for just the upper. Or around 2200 for a complete rifle. Is there a better value for a .5 MOA rifle? I bought a M&A upper with Larue mount and a Millet TRS for 748 delivered off the EE. Coupled with a Stag lower, WOA LPK and A2 stock, Geissele SSA.......... survey says.....................1184.....plus 75 bucks for a Harris bipod......1/2 to 3/4 all day long with PMC bronze at 100 Point is .....shop around and save !!!!!!!! |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 4:56:29 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
OK so .5MOA is about the max for AR-15?Based on http://www.precisionfirearms.com/14.html they offer several uppers that are .5 or less capable. I need to expect to pay 1100-1300 for just the upper. Or around 2200 for a complete rifle. Is there a better value for a .5 MOA rifle? I bought a M&A upper with Larue mount and a Millet TRS for 748 delivered off the EE. Coupled with a Stag lower, WOA LPK and A2 stock, Geissele SSA.......... survey says.....................1184.....plus 75 bucks for a Harris bipod......1/2 to 3/4 all day long with PMC bronze at 100 Point is .....shop around and save !!!!!!!! Half MOA with a M&A upper and PMC Bronze all day eh? 
Quoted:
OK so .5MOA is about the max for AR-15?Based on http://www.precisionfirearms.com/14.html they offer several uppers that are .5 or less capable. I need to expect to pay 1100-1300 for just the upper. Or around 2200 for a complete rifle. Is there a better value for a .5 MOA rifle? Here you go - http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-stealth-sniper-system-lt011 who knows, you might even get lucky and wind up with a .25MOA capable one after all. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 5:04:39 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
OK so .5MOA is about the max for AR-15?Based on http://www.precisionfirearms.com/14.html they offer several uppers that are .5 or less capable. I need to expect to pay 1100-1300 for just the upper. Or around 2200 for a complete rifle. Is there a better value for a .5 MOA rifle? I bought a M&A upper with Larue mount and a Millet TRS for 748 delivered off the EE. Coupled with a Stag lower, WOA LPK and A2 stock, Geissele SSA.......... survey says.....................1184.....plus 75 bucks for a Harris bipod......1/2 to 3/4 all day long with PMC bronze at 100 Point is .....shop around and save !!!!!!!! Half MOA with a M&A upper and PMC Bronze all day eh?
Quoted:
OK so .5MOA is about the max for AR-15?Based on http://www.precisionfirearms.com/14.html they offer several uppers that are .5 or less capable. I need to expect to pay 1100-1300 for just the upper. Or around 2200 for a complete rifle. Is there a better value for a .5 MOA rifle? Here you go - http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-stealth-sniper-system-lt011 who knows, you might even get lucky and wind up with a .25MOA capable one after all. You read well..., but I posted 1/2 to 3/4 MOA...EH??? |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 5:09:00 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
You do realize .25MOA @ 100 yards is .25in, and that the diameter of the projectile is .223in... You are basically asking for something that probably would need a bolt gun, and probably still more than $1500. Unless in absolute perfect conditions inside of a vacuum, would it maybe be possible to get a .25in group using .223in projectile. In theory of course, probably not ever in application. When measuring a group, you SUBTRACT the diameter of the bullet..... so, if your group measures .400 ( at widest point... to the outside of the bullet holes ) and you subtract .223, you get a .177" group. Entirely possible with a .223 in a bolt rifle and is done/ has been done many times. Getting that accuracy out of a AR 15 will cost some bucks and the shooter would have to be very good. I would not count on that kind of accuracy to show up often and 5 shot groups would be the minimum to judge it and 10 shot would be much better. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 5:18:10 PM EDT
[#21]
Here it is. Larue OBR
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Posted: 9/12/2012 5:59:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Here it is. Larue OBR Does anyone have pics of their obr with 1moa or less groups at 100 yards? Just wondering not trolling. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 6:14:17 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
There's far more to shooting .25 MOA than owning a gun capable of that accuracy. Especially in the AR15 platform! |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 6:19:37 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: I want to buy or build an AR-15 that can shoot .25MOA @ 100 yard.
We all would. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 6:40:36 PM EDT
[#25]
Why settle for .25 MOA?
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Posted: 9/12/2012 6:49:08 PM EDT
[#26]
1/4 MOA is a race car territory for a nice bolt gun with hand tailored ammunition and a great shooter. It can probably be done but not for $1500, like others have suggested. It would take countless hours to work up a load that will do consistent 1/4MOA and that's not including the rifle build itself. From 3/4 MOA and down, you are getting into lots of money, from 1/4MAO and down is a bench rest territory which is a whole new ball game that service/battle rifles cant really go into.
May I ask the reason for such a accurate weapon? |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 7:14:26 PM EDT
[#27]
It can be done easily for a whole lot less than $1500.
John Feamster, a writer for Precision Shooting and a US Army Marksmanship Unit ammo loader shot a benchrest match and won an "Official Screamer" patch for shooting an itty-bitty group in a formal match (I believe 5 shots in anything less than 0.100 inches is called an "Official Screamer"). Get a quality barrel chambered and mounted right, use a 50-grain flat-base benchrest bullet, good sandbags, and good form, and you will probably surprise yourself. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 7:53:44 PM EDT
[#28]
i can OCCASIONALLY get that with my bolt action rifle at 100 with my handloads but i would think to get that with an ar you'd have to spend quite a bit. larue with a custom barrel maybe? for 1500 i don't see it happening
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Posted: 9/12/2012 7:58:09 PM EDT
[#29]
I put 30 rounds of Wolf into the SAME HOLE at 200 yards. I posted it on the internet, it must be true.
Okay, in seriousness, 0.25 MOA? That's going to be pushing the limits of physics and you will have to be an amazing shooter. I would shoot for 1MOA and push yourself below that as you get better and as you develop your loads. It will probably take you years to get to 0.25MOA and you'll have to spend thousands of dollars... And you probably will have to have a single shot like someone else in the thread said. In my opinion, not worth it, but go for it if that's what you want. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 7:59:24 PM EDT
[#30]
For that kind of consistent accuracy with an AR, you'd have to LIVE for it. $1,500 wouldn't cover the reloading equipment, because you'd have to totally manicure the brass, one piece at a time, so that every single piece is identical to every other one. $1,500 wouldn't cover your testing and analyzing equipment, as you would require a decent chronograph, boroscope, and a long list of other gadgets and gizmos.
Start your budget at more like $15,000 if you really want repeatable .25 MOA with an AR, and dedicate ALL of your time to it. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 8:42:49 PM EDT
[#31]
Look up David Tubbs. for $5200 you can get an AR that will do what you want. I also recently read the AR record is something less than .2 inches at 300 yards, set in 1996. So it can be done by great shooters with great guns.
With a $1500 budget I recommend Superior barrels. I bought my AR 223 wylde upper from them for $650 and it shoots 0.375 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards and less than one inch groups (3 shot) at 200 yards. Two weeks ago I went cold bore at 200 yards, I just about died with happiness. Dead middle of bullseye first shot. Shot 8 other rounds at dime sized bullseyes and had two less than one inch and the rest less than 1.5 inches from bullseye. |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 9:12:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Good luck with your wants.
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Posted: 9/12/2012 9:21:23 PM EDT
[#33]
No RIFLE shoots .25 MOA. Only very few SHOOTERS do. Get my drift there, OP? Anything is possible, but that level of precision takes YEARS of refinement through not only superb equipment, but a TON OF PRACTICE.
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Posted: 9/12/2012 9:21:45 PM EDT
[#34]
I recently read an article in Guns And Ammo Magazine about the inherent accuracy of the AR platform.
Im no expert, but it made sense to me, and makes me wonder why everyone assumes a bolt gun can do better than an AR. AR's are very easy to free float. Easy to drop in a good trigger Match Grade barrels are available (Douglas, Shilen, Pac Nor, ect...) So at this point, just like a bolt gun. The article also stated something about the bolt locking directly into the barrel (extension) of an AR, and how that benefits accuracy. And if you go so far as to get a match bolt with your barrel thats another step in the right direction. Just something to chew on..... |
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Posted: 9/12/2012 10:31:38 PM EDT
[#35]
I don't want this to sound like an insult but the biggest problem will be you. You could be a natural, though.
Shooting with that kind of accuracy takes a crazy amount of skill. when you get down to that level of accuracy skill plays just as much of a role as the stick. Other then one hell of a reloading set you never made mention of, your gonna be the biggest puzzle piece till you get good. Hell you may never get that good. Also, At the ranges you talked about high bc bullets like you find in 6mm or 6.5mm Arnt really needed. 600-1000 yards? Heck yes. 300? Not so much, .223 will do fine. |
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Posted: 9/13/2012 3:49:12 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
It can be done easily for a whole lot less than $1500. John Feamster, a writer for Precision Shooting and a US Army Marksmanship Unit ammo loader shot a benchrest match and won an "Official Screamer" patch for shooting an itty-bitty group in a formal match (I believe 5 shots in anything less than 0.100 inches is called an "Official Screamer"). Get a quality barrel chambered and mounted right, use a 50-grain flat-base benchrest bullet, good sandbags, and good form, and you will probably surprise yourself. Can you please post a link to that article? I'd like to see the set up, not trying to start a fight, just really interested in seeing his rig and ammo components. I'm sure on occasion you can wring out a .100 group, but to do it consistently is what one would be after. |
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Posted: 9/13/2012 4:02:53 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Yea, don't we all. Ain't gonna happen. No way, i can do it all day with my Aimpoint! I thought everyone around here could? 
www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/584800_Enough_of_the__5moa___100yards_with_your_AR_all_day_long_talk_BS________Time_to_walk_the_walk_.html |
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Posted: 9/13/2012 4:10:15 AM EDT
[#38]
OP, you just need to work with the right custom shop. If I were you, I would call Will Hayden at Red Jacket. I think this build would be right up his alley, because a.25 moa AR-15 for $1500, well, that is a game changer....it has nevah been done befo.
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Posted: 9/13/2012 4:21:00 AM EDT
[#39]
I'd like to buy a car with 600hp that gets 65 miles per gallon and costs $15,000, but that isn't going to happen either!
In all seriousness, what you are asking isn't reasonable; and it's not just due to cost. You can buy a gun capable of shooting an occassional .25moa group, but to do it consistently is in the realm of unicorns and lepricans. There would have to be no weak link in the entire system (rifle, scope, scope mounts, ammo, and shooter). .50 moa would be a more realistic goal which would still be exceptional. |
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Posted: 9/13/2012 4:36:04 AM EDT
[#40]
I didn't have time to read the entire thread, but here is my view on this.
The rifle is only part of the equation, ammo and of course the shooter are other factors, not to mention the hundreds of variables that affect accuracy. So question number one, Let's just say that you build a rifle that is capable of .25 MOA , are you capable of shooting like this? Not trying to be a wise guy, but the type of shooting you are speaking of is a very difficult level to reach. Our top snipers can have a hard time doing this. Anytime I see someone claiming accuracy like this just makes me go to another thread, I have no time for couch commando's and BS. Unless I see it happen, it didn't happen. I don't believe you can obtain .25 MOA with a semi auto rifle. Maybe .5, but most would say .75 MOA is a excellent group at 100 yards for a semi auto rifle. $1500 won't come close to building a rifle like this. I would at least double that, and it will probably be well over triple by the time you buy the proper optic. Good Luck.
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Posted: 9/13/2012 4:57:18 AM EDT
[#41]
Didn't see in thread. OP why did you set the mark of .25 MOA? Just curious...
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Posted: 9/13/2012 5:38:11 AM EDT
[#42]
As others have said getting .25 ALL the time is hard even with something like a Larue AR and hand loads. Possible with a bolt gun
but what is the point. An AR is for hitting something fast and hard. Needing .25 all the time is for a competition bench rifle. You can build an AR for less than $1000 and get .50 - 1 inch with money left over for optics and be pretty happy with that. |
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Posted: 9/13/2012 5:53:14 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
You might get .75MOA if you are that good but depends on how good the numb skull behind the rifle is. 1MOA is the standard I would say for which an AR is considered very accurate. This... I'm for sure not a .25 MOA shooter...wait...this is the internet YES I AM!!! |
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Posted: 9/13/2012 5:58:58 AM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 9/13/2012 6:05:05 AM EDT
[#45]
I think it's pretty amazing that people can outshoot their garbage ammo with rack grade components.
eta: How about some 5-10rd groups too? I thought that was always a better measure of accuracy and precision. |
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Posted: 9/13/2012 6:21:05 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
I think it's pretty amazing that people can outshoot their garbage ammo with rack grade components. eta: How about some 5-10rd groups too? I thought that was always a better measure of accuracy and precision. It is, 3 rounds is for zeroing. 5 is the minimum for starting to see accuracy potential a d 10 rounds is the true test of rifle, ammo and man. |
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Posted: 9/13/2012 6:38:11 AM EDT
[#47]
Take a look at some of the smaller manufacturers that make guns for the competeition shooters. I have a JP Enterprises PSC-11 with 3.5 lb trigger, 18" stainless match barrel. This rig is outfitted with a Leupold VX-3 6.5x20 scope and Harris bipod. When I do my part, good breathing technique, good trigger control, no cafeine, etc., I have shot several .25 MOA 5 shot groups at 100yds using Federal Sierra MatchKing ammo. When I have an off day, 0.5-0.75 MOA is normal. This setup isn't cheap and would cost you a chunk over $4k. Ths is not a setup for most shooters out there, but if you want to play the game, you need to pay for the cost of admission. My other 4 ARs are carbines or SBRs using well known components, but can't come close to the performance of this target setup.
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Posted: 9/13/2012 6:38:50 AM EDT
[#48]
Roger Billy, I was being a little disingenuous.
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Posted: 9/13/2012 6:47:33 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Roger Billy, I was being a little disingenuous. I was just agreeing
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Posted: 9/13/2012 7:02:50 AM EDT
[#50]
I wish I could shoot half as good as the internet
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