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Posted: 2/2/2011 5:18:07 PM EDT
OK...a typical newb question.
Just purchased my 1st AR and from what I've read, staking the gas key properly is very important. My rifle has very small marks on the gas key but from looking at other AR pics, mine could be improved. Since I only own one rifle, is there another procedure/option instead of buying a $75 tool I'll only use once? Appreciate any help. Thanks JP |
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Posted: 2/2/2011 5:29:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Apparently you can stake it with a chisel and hammer but I have never done it.
I would probably try to sell the carrier on the EE for $40-50 and just put that money toward a new carrier from BCM or Colt (the latter from Apex Gun Parts). |
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Posted: 2/2/2011 6:15:59 PM EDT
[#2]
Regardless of what some of the zealots on here say, as long as metal is displaced to the point that it touches the knurling on the screws it is adequately staked.
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Posted: 2/2/2011 7:15:06 PM EDT
[#3]
If you dont think they look like there staked enough, I would recheck the torque, and if one moves, replace the screws and THEN restake. If they dont move, your probibly good.
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Posted: 2/2/2011 7:19:05 PM EDT
[#4]
Hit it with a center punch at the edge of each carrier key screw. Some do it twice per screw.
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Posted: 2/2/2011 7:20:33 PM EDT
[#5]
If nothings wrong why fix it? I've had bcg in the past w/o staked carriers, and they worked fine.
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Posted: 2/2/2011 7:59:59 PM EDT
[#6]
Logan, I'm with you. if the gas key stays tight who cares.
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Posted: 2/2/2011 9:01:44 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Since I only own one rifle, is there another procedure/option instead of buying a $75 tool I'll only use once? Sure. Using a 1.99 pointed tip punch and a hammer, ding the gas key about 1mm away from the screw head, just a typical nail driving hammer blow. Staking is done. All staking does is provide extra friction to the screw head to prevent the screw from unthreading due to vibration and thermal cycling. |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 5:11:12 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Logan, I'm with you. if the gas key stays tight who cares. Who's to say the screws will stay "tight" if they're not staked? |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 5:38:05 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
OK...a typical newb question.
Just purchased my 1st AR and from what I've read, staking the gas key properly is very important. My rifle has very small marks on the gas key but from looking at other AR pics, mine could be improved. Since I only own one rifle, is there another procedure/option instead of buying a $75 tool I'll only use once? Appreciate any help. Thanks JP 
Here are good samples of properly staked gas keys made by a staking tool from the factory, Colt at left and the rest are LMT with vintage pre MIM gas keys Proper Staking of Carrier Key Screws - content link Ref: Properly Staked Gas Key ... - Archives link for team members |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 7:11:49 AM EDT
[#10]
^^^^Those are staked that way because it is easy and quick for a machine to do all four staking points and do it consistently at production volume. In reality those are overdone. If you're doing one yourself, a prick punch and a hammer are quick, easy and perfectly adequate.
That's a Daniel Defense carrier that I did. DD does not stake them. Notice that the key isn't greatly deformed or any such nonsense, but there is metal displaced to the point of touching the screw cap in all four stake points. |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 7:37:10 AM EDT
[#11]
Very simple centerpunch (check) Hammer (check) use both to re enforce existing holes. Done, now go have a sammich
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Posted: 2/3/2011 7:58:59 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
^^^^Those are staked that way because it is easy and quick for a machine to do all four staking points and do it consistently at production volume. In reality those are overdone. If you're doing one yourself, a prick punch and a hammer are quick, easy and perfectly adequate.. BINGO! 
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Posted: 2/3/2011 8:20:48 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Logan, I'm with you. if the gas key stays tight who cares. Who's to say the screws will stay "tight" if they're not staked? If there properly torqued they shouldn't come loose. I had a young manufacturing carrier that wasn't staked(And they don't stake theirs) and it was fine. |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 8:27:54 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Regardless of what some of the zealots on here say, as long as metal is displaced to the point that it touches the knurling on the screws it is adequately staked. This. |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 10:17:38 AM EDT
[#15]
I got one of my BCGs from YHM, they staked the un-holy bee-judas of out of it. Wish I had a way to post a pic (my camera isn't working)
They will never come loose! The stakes are slots like this –– four on each screw! |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 10:29:30 AM EDT
[#16]
I always like this advice..........
Staking the gas key on the AR-15 and M-16 carrier.
There has been a lot of talk about the pros and cons of staking the gas key on the carrier. Here is our opinion and why Young Manufacturing will not stake keys. We have been making carriers since 1991. The US Mil Spec. assembly drawing requires the carrier key to be staked. Contrary to some popular opinions staking does not “SEAL” the gas key. Staking keeps the screws from backing out Period. If you do not properly torque the screws to 56 inch pounds you will be staking a screw that is loose or one that is over torqued and prone to breakage. We have seen plenty of staked screws that are loose or broken. The Mil Spec. also calls for the gas key bottom surface to be “SEALED” with Permatex gasket sealer. Something no one does to our knowledge. Here is our procedure for installing a gas key. First clean the oil from the gas key and the mating surface on the carrier. Then clean the oil from the screw threads. We use break cleaner for this. Next use a very light coating of Permatex high strength thread locker gel on the bottom of the key. PN 27010. This is much easier to use than the Permatex gasket sealer. It comes in a plastic twist dispenser. Make sure you don’t use so much that it squishes into the gas port hole. The cure rate is 60 minutes. Next coat the screw threads with the same gel. Install the key and torque the screws to 56 inch pounds. Should you decide to remove the key for some reason don’t use the old screws when you put the key back on! You will most likely break them during installation or when you fire the rifle. Go to the local hardware store and buy new 10-32 x ¼” SHCS. If you feel the need to stake the screws spend the money and get one of the staking tools from Brownell that uses a screw type system to swedge the material into the top of the screw. Don’t use a hammer and a punch! You can stretch the thread on the screw and now you have a loose screw that will eventually break if the gun even fires. We will not warrantee a carrier with a staked key no matter who staked it. You will be charged for a new key and any labor required to remove broken screws. Good Shooting! Daniel H Young President Young Manufacturing |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 10:38:45 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Regardless of what some of the zealots on here say, as long as metal is displaced to the point that it touches the knurling on the screws it is adequately staked. Regardless of what the zealots say, I have numerous carriers that have no staking whatsoever and none have ever come loose. I just don't understand why folks are so anal about this staking issue. |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 11:10:04 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Regardless of what some of the zealots on here say, as long as metal is displaced to the point that it touches the knurling on the screws it is adequately staked. Regardless of what the zealots say, I have numerous carriers that have no staking whatsoever and none have ever come loose. I just don't understand why folks are so anal about this staking issue. Well good for you. If you don't want to stake yours then don't stake them. But you don't need to go around labeling folks "zealots" for choosing to stake them. The military has learned a thing or two about the platform over the past 50 years or so, and calls for them to be staked. Not to mention thta Colt and every other major mfg stakes them. I see absolutely no reason why you would choose not to stake them and take the chance of the screws backing out. Maybe you know more than the military and Colt. Myself, I'll be a zealot and go with the staking. |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 11:26:00 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Regardless of what some of the zealots on here say, as long as metal is displaced to the point that it touches the knurling on the screws it is adequately staked. Regardless of what the zealots say, I have numerous carriers that have no staking whatsoever and none have ever come loose. I just don't understand why folks are so anal about this staking issue. Well good for you. If you don't want to stake yours then don't stake them. But you don't need to go around labeling folks "zealots" for choosing to stake them. The military has learned a thing or two about the platform over the past 50 years or so, and calls for them to be staked. Not to mention thta Colt and every other major mfg stakes them. I see absolutely no reason why you would choose not to stake them and take the chance of the screws backing out. Maybe you know more than the military and Colt. Myself, I'll be a zealot and go with the staking. Apparently you missed the one or two post towards the top that started the "zealot" comments. I run YM carriers in two of my rifles. Never had a problem. I've also never had a problem with my staked keys of other manufactures either. I've seen several posts on here throughout the years of guys having problems with their "staked" keys from various manufactures. I've never seen anyone post a problem with their un-staked YM keys. |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 11:35:28 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Regardless of what some of the zealots on here say, as long as metal is displaced to the point that it touches the knurling on the screws it is adequately staked. Regardless of what the zealots say, I have numerous carriers that have no staking whatsoever and none have ever come loose. I just don't understand why folks are so anal about this staking issue. Well good for you. If you don't want to stake yours then don't stake them. But you don't need to go around labeling folks "zealots" for choosing to stake them. The military has learned a thing or two about the platform over the past 50 years or so, and calls for them to be staked. Not to mention thta Colt and every other major mfg stakes them. I see absolutely no reason why you would choose not to stake them and take the chance of the screws backing out. Maybe you know more than the military and Colt. Myself, I'll be a zealot and go with the staking. Apparently you missed the one or two post towards the top that started the "zealot" comments. I run YM carriers in two of my rifles. Never had a problem. I've also never had a problem with my staked keys of other manufactures either. I've seen several posts on here throughout the years of guys having problems with their "staked" keys from various manufactures. I've never seen anyone post a problem with their un-staked YM keys. I've seen YM's statement regarding the staking of carrier keys many times before. It is basically his explanation for why they don't stake their keys. I don't agree with him. Neither do the military, Colt, etc. Like I said, if you don't want to stake, then don't. Just don't try to suggest that it is unnecessary, overkill, etc. When done properly it makes a whole lot of sense. Just because YOU'VE never had a problem doesn't mean that others have not had problems. I suspect that the reason that we hear so little about the screws backing out is because most mfg's stake them. The majority of issues that I hear about come from those mfg's who do not stake them well. |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 11:55:57 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Regardless of what some of the zealots on here say, as long as metal is displaced to the point that it touches the knurling on the screws it is adequately staked. Regardless of what the zealots say, I have numerous carriers that have no staking whatsoever and none have ever come loose. I just don't understand why folks are so anal about this staking issue. Well good for you. If you don't want to stake yours then don't stake them. But you don't need to go around labeling folks "zealots" for choosing to stake them. The military has learned a thing or two about the platform over the past 50 years or so, and calls for them to be staked. Not to mention thta Colt and every other major mfg stakes them. I see absolutely no reason why you would choose not to stake them and take the chance of the screws backing out. Maybe you know more than the military and Colt. Myself, I'll be a zealot and go with the staking. Apparently you missed the one or two post towards the top that started the "zealot" comments. I run YM carriers in two of my rifles. Never had a problem. I've also never had a problem with my staked keys of other manufactures either. I've seen several posts on here throughout the years of guys having problems with their "staked" keys from various manufactures. I've never seen anyone post a problem with their un-staked YM keys. I've seen YM's statement regarding the staking of carrier keys many times before. It is basically his explanation for why they don't stake their keys. I don't agree with him. Neither do the military, Colt, etc. Like I said, if you don't want to stake, then don't. Just don't try to suggest that it is unnecessary, overkill, etc. When done properly it makes a whole lot of sense. Just because YOU'VE never had a problem doesn't mean that others have not had problems. I suspect that the reason that we hear so little about the screws backing out is because most mfg's stake them. The majority of issues that I hear about come from those mfg's who do not stake them well. I am suggesting that it is unnecessary, overkill etc. for most, not all, applications if you set the key and bolts properly, as suggested by YM, there shouldn't be a problem. I offered real world experience by mentioning my use of YM carriers as opposed to the "I read about it one time on an internet forum" crowd. I've also never had a problem with my factory staked carriers either. Those being mostly Colt and Denny's Superduty set ups. As I mentioned before I've seen a lot of posts over the years of guys having problems with their "staked" keys. I've never seen a single post of anyone having a problem with an un-staked YM key. Not saying it's never happened though. |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 12:31:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Regardless of what some of the zealots on here say, as long as metal is displaced to the point that it touches the knurling on the screws it is adequately staked. +1 Bingo I happen to have several Armorer manuals hat show 3 different ways of doing a Key |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 12:37:11 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
^^^^Those are staked that way because it is easy and quick for a machine to do all four staking points and do it consistently at production volume. In reality those are overdone. If you're doing one yourself, a prick punch and a hammer are quick, easy and perfectly adequate. http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7572/carrierkey.jpg That's a Daniel Defense carrier that I did. DD does not stake them. Notice that the key isn't greatly deformed or any such nonsense, but there is metal displaced to the point of touching the screw cap in all four stake points. Another +1 |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 1:22:43 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: Regardless of what some of the zealots on here say, as long as metal is displaced to the point that it touches the knurling on the screws it is adequately staked. Regardless of what the zealots say, I have numerous carriers that have no staking whatsoever and none have ever come loose. I just don't understand why folks are so anal about this staking issue. Voodoo perpetuated by technical documents and the cult fanboy "tier chart". When the rifle is fired rapidly, the carrier heats faster than the screws, leading to the screw being stretched. When the rifle cools, the screw loses its torque and can back out. Filling the screw holes with heat transfer paste will end the thermal differential, preventing this problem. It is the front screw which has all the problems. |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 1:35:37 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
When the rifle is fired rapidly, the carrier heats faster than the screws, leading to the screw being stretched. When the rifle cools, the screw loses its torque and can back out. Filling the screw holes with heat transfer paste will end the thermal differential, preventing this problem. It is the front screw which has all the problems. Unless the alloys of the carrier, key and screw are all the same or have exactly the same thermal expansion properties (a "no" and a "no") this won't make a difference either. |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 1:38:17 PM EDT
[#26]
Call me a zealot. I have personally witnessed an unstaked carrier key (Bushmaster) come loose during qualification, making the rifle non-functional. Fortunately it was during qual and not a more serious situation. I'll continue to insist on staked carriers. You do what makes you feel comfortable. To each his own.
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Posted: 2/3/2011 1:46:02 PM EDT
[#27]
There is factory staking from the build procedure, and there is "Field" staking from the 23&P
The Colt/LMTs are factory, the Daniel Defense is IAW the 23&P, which is really just supposed to keep your gun in the fight till the bolt carrier can be replaced with a IAW factory build procedure staked Gas key |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 1:46:37 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Call me a zealot. I have personally witnessed an unstaked carrier key (Bushmaster) come loose during qualification, making the rifle non-functional. Fortunately it was during qual and not a more serious situation. I'll continue to insist on staked carriers. You do what makes you feel comfortable. To each his own. ?? you did read helotaxi reply ? |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 1:50:41 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
There is factory staking from the build procedure, and there is "Field" staking from the 23&P The Colt/LMTs are factory, the Daniel Defense is IAW the 23&P, which is really just supposed to keep your gun in the fight till the bolt carrier can be replaced with a IAW factory build procedure staked Gas key I have another manual that show the head of the bolt/screw being staked as well |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 1:56:35 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Call me a zealot. I have personally witnessed an unstaked carrier key (Bushmaster) come loose during qualification, making the rifle non-functional. Fortunately it was during qual and not a more serious situation. I'll continue to insist on staked carriers. You do what makes you feel comfortable. To each his own. ?? you did read helotaxi reply ? I was referring to the other "zealot" reference: "Regardless of what the zealots say, I have numerous carriers that have no staking whatsoever and none have ever come loose. I just don't understand why folks are so anal about this staking issue" |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 1:58:44 PM EDT
[#31]
The chicken or the egg. Why not do what most other newbies do and read this BS over and over and realize it is a dead horse and we don't need yet another thread about the subject. Will staking prevent a properly torqued bolt from backing out? Maybe. Is it worth it to swag the bolts of the gas key? There is no clear cut answer. Have I ever seen one back out? NO, do I believe it can happen? Hell Yes!!! That is why all mine are properly torqued and swagged. But why does it need to be brought up over and over and over again? 
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Posted: 2/3/2011 2:41:10 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: When the rifle is fired rapidly, the carrier heats faster than the screws, leading to the screw being stretched. When the rifle cools, the screw loses its torque and can back out. Filling the screw holes with heat transfer paste will end the thermal differential, preventing this problem. It is the front screw which has all the problems. Unless the alloys of the carrier, key and screw are all the same or have exactly the same thermal expansion properties (a "no" and a "no") this won't make a difference either. Both are ferritic steel. Now if the screws were austentic steel (300 series stainless), you might have an issue. But rest assured, the differences between 8620 steel (carrier) and chrome-moly steel (screws) is a BB in a boxcar difference. The differential thermal expansion from brief rapid firing is what causes the problems. |
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Posted: 2/3/2011 5:06:22 PM EDT
[#33]
I see people remove the carrier for cleaning. Problems come from reusing the carrier screws, they needs to be replaced if removed for carrier cleaning. When the new screw is torqued to 40 in lbs it is stretched and pre-loaded. The heat cycles have little or no effect on the pre-load. The staking provides "witness marks" so you have a visual indication of carrier bolts moving.
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Posted: 2/3/2011 5:18:01 PM EDT
[#34]
I had the carrier key (unstaked) come loose on a $2,500.00 (Dealer price) JP Enterprises Grade III rifle. It came from JP that away, it was a manual operated rifle until I tightened the screws and properly staked them!
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Posted: 2/3/2011 5:39:31 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 2/4/2011 7:35:25 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
The staking provides "witness marks" so you have a visual indication of carrier bolts moving. Staking has nothing to do with witness marks. Witness marks require both the surface and fastener to be marked. If that were the goal, a scriber would be the tool of choice with a simple scratch across the carrier key and screw head. If the staking has deformed the screw heads, the screws have been compromised. Staking works just like a heat resistant lock nut. The screws won't come loose from vibration, nothing more. If the carrier key isn't properly installed to begin with, it won't do a thing. |
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Posted: 2/4/2011 8:00:30 AM EDT
[#37]
This is the answer...it works 100% of the time and gives you a factory job. See Psywar's post above...he knows of what he speaks. |
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Posted: 2/4/2011 8:03:36 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Call me a zealot. I have personally witnessed an unstaked carrier key (Bushmaster) come loose during qualification, making the rifle non-functional. Fortunately it was during qual and not a more serious situation. I'll continue to insist on staked carriers. You do what makes you feel comfortable. To each his own. ?? you did read helotaxi reply ? I just don't understand why folks are so anal about this staking issue" I AGREE |
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Posted: 2/4/2011 8:12:22 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
This is the answer...it works 100% of the time and gives you a factory job. See Psywar's post above...he knows of what he speaks. Thanks! Are you a former student of mine? 
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Posted: 2/4/2011 10:48:00 AM EDT
[#40]
Spring loaded punch works good for me. Same thing I use for staking castle nuts.
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Posted: 2/4/2011 11:52:49 AM EDT
[#41]
As I stated...I am a newbie to AR's. I figured this subject has been posted & beaten to death previously. My AR (Sabre Defence M5 Flat Top) looks like it has been lighlty staked but was not sure if I needed to enhance it.
Appreciate all of the replies guys. Even the ones who rolled their eyes.
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