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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:51:16 AM EDT
This
Or this 
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:52:17 AM EDT
[#1]
Which one's less expensive?
«tc2k11» |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:52:40 AM EDT
[#2]
In for info
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:54:29 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which one's less expensive? «tc2k11» The vice |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:55:58 AM EDT
[#4]
Reaction rod. More expensive, but no stresses on the upper reciever
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:56:22 AM EDT
[#5]
If you're installing one of those key mod or other style hand guards, use the vise. You start torquing on that nut using a reaction, it's possible you could spin the receiver, shearing the bbl ext pin.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:59:07 AM EDT
[#6]
I used reciever blocks for my last two builds. Seemed to work out ok. Barrel nuts seem to like between 30 and 40ft lbs or torque. That's really not that much, just a decent grunts worth. If you have a vice the reciever blocks should be fine. Just my two cents.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:59:47 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you're installing one of those key mod or other style hand guards, use the vise. You start torquing on that nut using a reaction, it's possible you could spin the receiver, shearing the bbl ext pin. Truth. I've done it before. That said, you're probably not gonna do it at the recommended torque limits. I sheared my pin off because the barrel nut was *almost* there and I was being a dummy. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:05:04 AM EDT
[#8]
The vise is for barrel installation/removal.
The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:06:59 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The vice is for barrel installation/removal. The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. Please go on. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:09:01 AM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:09:35 AM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:13:41 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryNo, not this! |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:15:45 AM EDT
[#13]
I use the set up on the top, the upper receiver blocks in a vise.
BTW, it is a VISE not a vice, a vice is a bad habit. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice Vice is a practice, behavior, or habit generally considered immoral, sinful, depraved, or degrading in the associated societyWikipedia |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:16:16 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please go on. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The vice is for barrel installation/removal. The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. Please go on. The vice stabilizes the whole receiver as you're torquing on the barrel nut to prevent damage. The reaction rod clamps into the star chamber to prevent the barrel from torquing on and damaging the receiver as you're installing a flash hider. The receiver vice is the better choice for installing a barrel. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:16:37 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, not this! Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, not this! Definitely not. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:23:05 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please go on. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The vice is for barrel installation/removal. The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. Please go on. I'll help. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/633558_.html http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/661208_Just_broke_an_indexing_pin.html |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:26:03 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reaction rod. More expensive, but no stresses on the upper reciever There has been a rash of people shearing their barrel index pins off using this method. Makes sense why if you think about it. FWIW, I've used the block with the receiver insert in the first picture for numerous uppers without any issues. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:26:58 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The vice is for barrel installation/removal. The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. Please go on. I'll help. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/633558_.html http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/661208_Just_broke_an_indexing_pin.html Thank you!! |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:33:27 AM EDT
[#19]
"Star chamber" cracks me up. It is called the barrel extension (and fyi that mother is on there if the barrel was made right). Max barrel nut torque is 80 ft*lbs so "get both". You would have to exceed that by a bunch to shear off an index pin. Dang.
I use the original A2 clamshell for installing/removing barrels on A2 (carry handle) uppers like for Highpower service rifle comp, the Block Worx vise set made for flat-tops for (duh) torquing barrels on/off flat-tops. I have a GRR but have not used it yet. Frank White was the first I saw to use a rod-style device, and this was like over 10-15 years ago. It was his own tool he made for building uppers, it was sort of like a barrel wrench clamped in a vise, which held the barrel nut (or float tube barrel nut more usually), and a rod with bolt lugs that fit into and torqued from the barrel extension, putting no torque on the receiver at all. I was going to make a copy but never got around to it. I heard the AMU used something similar but will not repeat unconfirmed info. I know hardly anyone has ever made uppers that won more awards and set more records than those 2 outfits. YMMV |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:40:29 AM EDT
[#20]
When you are torquing a barrel, the threads you are torquing it onto threads on the upper, so it only makes sense to clamp the upper.
When you are torquing on a muzzle break, you are torquing it onto threads on the barrel, so it only makes sense to hold onto the barrel. Or, in other words, the professional who does this every day for a living who answered the question above is probably right. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:48:09 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you are torquing a barrel, the threads you are torquing it onto threads on the upper, so it only makes sense to clamp the upper. When you are torquing on a muzzle break, you are torquing it onto threads on the barrel, so it only makes sense to hold onto the barrel. Or, in other words, the professional who does this every day for a living who answered the question above is probably right. You are correct of course, but the barrel index pin "fixes" the receiver to the barrel extension. You can hold either one and get the same result. One method transfers the torque to the receiver, one does not. I don't build them every day, but mine are as good as anyone's. For muzzle devices always clamp the barrel or use the RR. A vise block is not the correct tool for this. ETA: and skip the blocks that use the receiver pins to hold the receiver. Those are good for installing sights or lights, not building. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:59:00 AM EDT
[#22]
Vice for the barrel/barrel but install.
Reaction rod for muzzle device install. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 2:03:17 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The vice is for barrel installation/removal. The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 2:06:44 AM EDT
[#24]
How about both? Hold the receiver and barrel while tightening the barrel nut.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 2:08:31 AM EDT
[#25]
This one never touches the receiver.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 2:15:44 AM EDT
[#26]
The receiver vise blocks work just fine.
Here's a tip: When torqueing the barrel nut, don't chase after a specific torque value. Lube with the correct grease. Tighten the nut and loosen at least 3 times like normal. Set your torque wrench to 35, and stop after the click on the 1st notch that lines up with the gas tube hole. I've found that the low end of the torque value tolerance, the more accurate the upper is for me. YMMV, and all that. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 2:17:05 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are correct of course, but the barrel index pin "fixes" the receiver to the barrel extension. You can hold either one and get the same result. One method transfers the torque to the receiver, one does not. I don't build them every day, but mine are as good as anyone's. For muzzle devices always clamp the barrel or use the RR. A vise block is not the correct tool for this. ETA: and skip the blocks that use the receiver pins to hold the receiver. Those are good for installing sights or lights, not building. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
When you are torquing a barrel, the threads you are torquing it onto threads on the upper, so it only makes sense to clamp the upper. When you are torquing on a muzzle break, you are torquing it onto threads on the barrel, so it only makes sense to hold onto the barrel. Or, in other words, the professional who does this every day for a living who answered the question above is probably right. You are correct of course, but the barrel index pin "fixes" the receiver to the barrel extension. You can hold either one and get the same result. One method transfers the torque to the receiver, one does not. I don't build them every day, but mine are as good as anyone's. For muzzle devices always clamp the barrel or use the RR. A vise block is not the correct tool for this. ETA: and skip the blocks that use the receiver pins to hold the receiver. Those are good for installing sights or lights, not building. Which is why you risk shearing either the upper or pin if you torque on a barrel nut using a reaction rod. You don't actually get the same result. If you hold the receiver in a block, you are not placing anywhere near the same amount of torque on the index pin compared to using the reaction rod (when torquing on the barrel nut). There will be some torque imparted by the friction between the barrel and the nut, but it should be much less. Hence the stories of folks who sheared a pin using a reaction rod listed above. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 2:17:21 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Definitely not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No, not this! Definitely not. How to install a barrel on a billet or Vltor upper then? These receiver blocks have their place. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 2:28:02 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How to install a barrel on a billet or Vltor upper then? These receiver blocks have their place. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No, not this! Definitely not. How to install a barrel on a billet or Vltor upper then? These receiver blocks have their place. I put my Vltor upper sideways in the vice between 2 blocks of wood  .
It worked just fine, not that I would recommend it. But if I had to do another like that I would. Or use the magpul tool that I posted. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 2:31:19 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Definitely not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No, not this! Definitely not. Only use this if you want a cracked receiver. I would go with the vise. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 2:40:01 AM EDT
[#31]
Ive always managed to bend the lugs slightly on uppers using vice blocks. Tried two so far, different brands. Only torquing to 35-40lbs.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 3:03:13 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ive always managed to bend the lugs slightly on uppers using vice blocks. Tried two so far, different brands. Only torquing to 35-40lbs. What lugs? |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 3:13:19 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The vice is for barrel installation/removal. The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. This. It's not rocket surgery.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 3:17:47 AM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 12/3/2014 3:22:24 AM EDT
[#35]
I see no point in using the reaction rod, but no reason to stop people from using them. Like anything, when they are used wrong things fail. Same with the receiver vises out there.
Me personally, I prefer to use a receiver vise, and a barrel vise. If all I was doing is AR work, I'd probably buy one. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 3:25:20 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What lugs? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ive always managed to bend the lugs slightly on uppers using vice blocks. Tried two so far, different brands. Only torquing to 35-40lbs. What lugs? Holes where the takedown pins go on the upper. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 3:28:03 AM EDT
[#37]
What do manufacturers use?
Is JoAnn from Maine or Connecticut using anything like these things? |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 3:32:48 AM EDT
[#38]
I use a reaction rod.. Never sheared a pin. I torqued one to 83lbs once (first build, got real nervous), but all was well (Noveske barrel, Seekins BAR). All the handguards I've used since then did not require indexing the gas tube through the barrel nut (except one, which indexed at about 40lbs), so minimal torque was all that has been required. I can't imagine shearing a barrel indexing pin at 30-35lbs. Could happen I guess, but the reaction rod is all I have, and it's quick and easy.. So I'll continue using it.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 3:35:17 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Holes where the takedown pins go on the upper. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ive always managed to bend the lugs slightly on uppers using vice blocks. Tried two so far, different brands. Only torquing to 35-40lbs. What lugs? Holes where the takedown pins go on the upper. That style of vise block is not to be used for barrel installs because it places all the load on the lugs and bends or breaks them. Use the clamshell style that clamps over the entire upper to do barrel installs. The lug type block is really only usefull for holding the upper still while installing the ejection port door and maybe forward assist or installing optics. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 3:38:28 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reaction rod. More expensive, but no stresses on the upper reciever Not to mention more and more upper receivers are non standard AR15 spec. Of course you have things like the DPMS Panther Claw block but I do like the reaction rod a lot as a very good "one size fits all" solution. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 3:42:18 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. It's not rocket surgery. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The vice is for barrel installation/removal. The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. This. It's not rocket surgery. Why wouldn't the rod work for torquing a barrel nut? The DOD method grips only the barrel with vice blocks. Either way immobilizes the barrel to produce the exact same effect. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 3:42:23 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you're installing one of those key mod or other style hand guards, use the vise. You start torquing on that nut using a reaction, it's possible you could spin the receiver, shearing the bbl ext pin. This, I had that happen on a build and haven't used the thing since. Vice for me for std style uppers and for thicker walled ones etc, I use a fixture from Accuracy Speaks |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 3:47:55 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This, I had that happen on a build and haven't used the thing since. Vice for me for std style uppers and for thicker walled ones etc, I use a fixture from Accuracy Speaks Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you're installing one of those key mod or other style hand guards, use the vise. You start torquing on that nut using a reaction, it's possible you could spin the receiver, shearing the bbl ext pin. This, I had that happen on a build and haven't used the thing since. Vice for me for std style uppers and for thicker walled ones etc, I use a fixture from Accuracy Speaks Were the barrel nut and receiver threads properly greased? |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 4:06:35 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That style of vise block is not to be used for barrel installs because it places all the load on the lugs and bends or breaks them. Use the clamshell style that clamps over the entire upper to do barrel installs. The lug type block is really only usefull for holding the upper still while installing the ejection port door and maybe forward assist or installing optics. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ive always managed to bend the lugs slightly on uppers using vice blocks. Tried two so far, different brands. Only torquing to 35-40lbs. What lugs? Holes where the takedown pins go on the upper. That style of vise block is not to be used for barrel installs because it places all the load on the lugs and bends or breaks them. Use the clamshell style that clamps over the entire upper to do barrel installs. The lug type block is really only usefull for holding the upper still while installing the ejection port door and maybe forward assist or installing optics. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Right, i know that. Ive only used clam shell blocks though, and they always end up, somehow, bending those "lugs". I can tell because before i do any torquing, they're tight fits into my lowers. After, theyre sloppy and loose by a good 1-2mm. Basically, plastic clam shell blocks fucking suck. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 4:09:42 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Right, i know that. Ive only used clam shell blocks though, and they always end up, somehow, bending those "lugs". I can tell because before i do any torquing, they're tight fits into my lowers. After, theyre sloppy and loose by a good 1-2mm. Basically, plastic clam shell blocks fucking suck. If they were bent from rotational force the upper wouldn't mate with the lower, or it'd be a much tighter fit. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 4:20:14 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryI've used a setup similar to this for quite a few years, works extremely well. There is a block made, I believe by PRI that has pins for AR-15 and AR-10/LR-308 on the other side, that's what I use. Zach |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 4:23:07 AM EDT
[#47]
I have the block worx thing from Spikes Tactical. I've changed one barrel nut with it and it seemed ok. I'm sure there are much better options out there for the price.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 10:29:11 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What do manufacturers use? Is JoAnn from Maine or Connecticut using anything like these things? Here's what the Maine folks supposedly use: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/618735__ARCHIVED_THREAD____upper_receiver_vise_clamp_or_block_for_barrel_install_.html&page=1#i6114465 I suggested the same thing to Geiselle some time ago, along with a couple other machine shops. The key on top that fits into the charging handle slot is the crucial difference. I've seen photos from another manufacturer where the Peace River/Brownells style clamshell blocks are clearly visible. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 10:57:47 AM EDT
[#49]
Again with this.
You're playing Russian Roulette if you install a barrel using a reaction rod. "Well, it hasn't happened to me yet" is exactly the kind of logic I'd expect from GD. Go to the tech forums, all sorts of threads there about sheered indexing pins. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:01:20 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you are torquing a barrel, the threads you are torquing it onto threads on the upper, so it only makes sense to clamp the upper. When you are torquing on a muzzle break, you are torquing it onto threads on the barrel, so it only makes sense to hold onto the barrel. Or, in other words, the professional who does this every day for a living who answered the question above is probably right. Yep. I'll take ADCO's word over pretty much anyone's on this. When I have to remove/install a barrel or barrel nut, I use the receiver vice. |
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