Posted: 10/8/2015 3:09:30 PM EDT
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Another aspect of our training progression is combat fitness. What do I mean by that? I'll give you an example. I recently did the MVT Rifleman Challenge. All the events are physical, to one extent or the other, but the real ball buster is the two mile ruck run. With a 30lb (min) dry ruck, and a rifle (in your hands), you have to complete a course up a terrain feature we christened Motherfucker hill. Now I could do this run in 22 minutes at home, but the West Virginia countryside got a vote in this one for sure. It took me 28 and some change. That was a real eye-opener for me, cuz I though I was in better shape than that. I have been doing tri's for the past few years, and thought all that training would work here too. I was wrong. Humping up a steep hill with ruck and rifle have nothing to do with swimming, cycling, or even running, without a ruck. So I have decided to get out of the tri game, and start training exclusively for combat fitness.
One of the first guys I remember stressing this in his training was Jeff Gonzales. Guys used to talk of the ball-busting PT he had them do before a string of fire. Nowadays, I think Pat Mac is probably the premier proponent of this concept, although they're many more I'm sure. And this impresses me, because I think this concept is very important, and I also think it's important for the instructor to walk the talk. This is also one of the reasons I like MVT. Max is a PT stud and leads the way, on the ruck run times, or pull-ups (with kit!) or whatever. So the question is, how is YOUR combat fitness? Do you do anything specifically to enhance your ability to fight, when the time comes? I know there is a certain amount of cross-over from any physical activity, but I also believe that to get really good at it, you have to train specifically for it. I am presently training on a MVT combat fitness program which stresses both cardio and muscular strength. With most folks, it's usually one or the other. Except the cross-fit guys, who come the closest combat fitness, but usually without any task-specific training such as ruck marching. Whatever plan you decide on, make sure it enhances your ability to fight, in whatever way your estimate of the sit requires. How close are you to your fighting weight at bootcamp or OCS? I'm within 10 lbs of my weight at OCS, back in 1976. It's not easy, and does involve a lot of lifestyle changes. But being able to handle your body weight is key. This is where diet comes in. I highly recommend the "Making Race Weight Cook Book" by Matt Fitzgerald. It has lots of good recipes in there to get you off junk food and eating right. The older you get, the more diet becomes key as well. In the interest of full disclosure: I am a mod at the MVT forum. I have taken all the courses over there, and paid for each one. Because I came over here to recommend MVT to others, I was offered a 50% discount on my next class. But regardless, I consider Max a friend and highly recommend his COI, and fitness plans (which I paid for too). . |
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This has got to be a CoC violation. You guys are making dozens of threads advertising his services. You may pay to take his classes but you admitted in another thread that you make gear for him and sell it. In my eyes that makes you an employee or at the very least affiliated in some way. After the first threads I was intrigued now with the basic spamming of the training sub forum I'm completely turned off to ever taking a class.
SPECIFIC TO SALES
Companies or individuals may not advertise or sell products and/or services in the forums without permission from an admin. (This includes siglines and titles.) Industry Partners are allowed to post sales or specials on a limited basis and also require admin permission. |
| I tend to limit weighted runs to an occasional event versus a regular workout for injury prevention. I'm currently 20 pounds heavier than I was in OSUT (Jan 96) but I'm stronger and have a much higher level of endurance than I did back then. The only place I've seen a decrease is in my mile time (was knocking down 4:50 miles back then and I'm at 7:30/mile 19 years later). My workouts bounce between gym time, time on the trails prepping for Ultra-marathons, and BJJ mat time. |
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Good on ya. I think every instructor in the industry should be doing this. Not to mention every student of the combat arts. One thing I had difficulty with in the past was showing up at some class, with a big, over-weight instructor.
On an unrelated note: I have never received a penny for any gear I designed for MVT. I have never received any discount on courses at MVT for "advertising" their services. I only received an OFFER of a discount for posting and defending MVT, from guys like you. I have NOT taken him up on it. I have paid for every class I've taken. Once again, I consider Max a friend and have done all I have done for him, for FREE. Yes, that's right, I haven't made a penny off of it. I am not, or ever have been, an employee of MVT. |
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Quoted:
Only time I'd have an issue with the physical fitness level of a trainer is if he was unable to teach me what I was there to learn ^^^ This. Not every trainer has to be a PT stud. A PT class, yes. however,i've learned from some great precision shooting skills from some very hefty benchrest shooters. I've had great discussions and medical classes from Trauma Docs that couldn't carry a patient 10 feet. The key is that they need to be able to demonstrate, or have someone else correctly demonstrate, how to do whatever skill they are teaching. Larry Vickers may not be able to run the fastest anymore, but are you going to question his thoughts on shooting under stress? |
| CF, GoRuck, 5'10" 175lbs = high school weight and best shape of my life. 55 years old. IDPA, 3-gun, SIG Academy Patrol Rifle and Shotgun instructor Grad. I think I'm doing pretty good. I would agree physical fitness is very important in improving overall performance. |
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Well since you bring him up, yes, I would not train with him, because he no longer has the combat fitness that is required for his former occupation.. Nothing on him personally, I'm sure he has much to offer as a SME, writing books and so forth, but as to actually training under him, or anyone else that's not able to maintain a good combat fitness, no. I would rather go to someone like Max, Pat Mac, or NC Patrol AR here, who is in really good shape.
It's a buyer's market. Why would I go to someone that is fat, and out of shape? I'd rather go to someone that is squared away, and sets the example, by leading from the front. Would you respect a fat platoon leader, or platoon Sgt? Coming from a former Ranger, I find this attitude rather curious. Why should we hold our tactical instructors to a lower standard? Don't you stay in shape for your students? I just assumed you would. Hey, maybe this is just me. I spend a lot of time and effort to stay in shape; I expect anyone that wants to train me to do the same. Maybe this is just another difference between square range and expanded range training? |
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What kind of class are you referring to?
Would I take a PT themed class from Vickers? Probably not. While undoubtedly a good source of info, he is not the best suited for that particular topic. Would I take a class on 1911 building or shoot house development? Absolutely. The level of fitness I maintain is not a requirement for those classes, nor is it for the instructor. |
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Granted. No argument there. I am referring to what I am most interested in, namely SUT, as it relates to the armed citizen in a WROL sit. If your instructor can't run the course with you, then he is not fit to teach it. I would go as far to say, if your instructor can't run Pat Mac drills (climbing a 20' rope, humping a 90lb seabag, etc) and shoot a drill, then he's really not in shape to teach you "tactical" shooting. It 's a very strenuous, stressful endeavor. If you add in movement, as you may see in a real gunfight, I would question someone's ability to be able to operate, if he is seriously over-weight.
Now if you want to sit down and talk about custom building a 1911, weapons manipulation, combat mindset, or other important attributes, absolutely, they still have much to offer. But, if a dude doesn't maintain the fitness level of a Ranger Batt, SF, or a special mission's unit, then I think, personally, that effects his credibility. I personally wouldn't stand in front of a group of folks I was supposed to be teaching combat or tactical shooting without having serious combat fitness. Just like the first time you stand in front of your platoon. You wouldn't be anything less than the best you could be, to rate leading those guys. Again, why should a tactical instructor be any different? This really becomes clear once you get off the square range and get into real terrain, be it rural or urban. |
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Quoted:
Granted. No argument there. I am referring to what I am most interested in, namely SUT, as it relates to the armed citizen in a WROL sit. If your instructor can't run the course with you, then he is not fit to teach it. I would go as far to say, if your instructor can't run Pat Mac drills (climbing a 20' rope, humping a 90lb seabag, etc) and shoot a drill, then he's really not in shape to teach you "tactical" shooting. It 's a very strenuous, stressful endeavor. If you add in movement, as you may see in a real gunfight, I would question someone's ability to be able to operate, if he is seriously over-weight. Now if you want to sit down and talk about custom building a 1911, or combat mindset, or other important attributes, absolutely, they still have much to offer. But, if a dude doesn't maintain the fitness level of a Ranger Batt, SF, or a special mission's unit, then I think, personally, that effects his credibility. I personally wouldn't stand in front of a group of folks I was supposed to be teaching combat or tactical shooting without having serious combat fitness. Just like the first time you stand in front of your platoon. You wouldn't be anything less than the best you could be, to rate leading those guys. Again, why should a tactical instructor be any different? This really becomes clear once you get off the square range and get into real terrain, be it rural or urban. That credibility hit is highly subjective and is indeed up to the individual. Having done several CQB classes with Larry, he's fitness level never bothered me. |
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Quoted:
Granted. No argument there. I am referring to what I am most interested in, namely SUT, as it relates to the armed citizen in a WROL sit. If your instructor can't run the course with you, then he is not fit to teach it. I would go as far to say, if your instructor can't run Pat Mac drills (climbing a 20' rope, humping a 90lb seabag, etc) and shoot a drill, then he's really not in shape to teach you "tactical" shooting. It 's a very strenuous, stressful endeavor. If you add in movement, as you may see in a real gunfight, I would question someone's ability to be able to operate, if he is seriously over-weight. 2 issues: -what standard then do you out on fitness for the instructor? Define "run the course." While I'm not disagreeing with you, it is a very subjective standard. -what if that subjective standard was placed on the STUDENT? What if, we as instructors, started the class with a PT test? Don't pass OUR standards and you go home. That is how federal courses are run... While you're not taking a class as a civilian for a federal position but why should someone be excluded, possibly considered discriminated against, for trying to learn? |
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Again, granted, this is very subjective. But why would you not hold your instructor to the same high standards that you set for yourself? I mean he'd be great to bring in and give his take on things, lots of wisdom to pass on, around the fire pit, so to speak. We had Vietnam POW's give us talks on E&E and such. But we also had badass instructors to actually teach us the COI.
Being a tactical instructor would be my dream job. But I wouldn't dream of doing it unless I was absolutely the best shape I could be in. Sure that's just my opinion, but wtf! OK fair point, what about the students. Yeah I would say there should be a base level of combat fitness, but bear in mind, the difference is they are now paying you for the training. But yeah why not publish certain prereqs a stud should be able to perform to be successful in class. |
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Quoted:
Again, granted, this is very subjective. But why would you not hold your instructor to the same high standards that you set for yourself? I mean he'd be great to bring in and give his take on things, lots of wisdom to pass on, around the fire pit, so to speak. We had Vietnam POW's give us talks on E&E and such. But we also had badass instructors to actually teach us the COI. Being a tactical instructor would be my dream job. But I wouldn't dream of doing it unless I was absolutely the best shape I could be in. Sure that's just my opinion, but wtf! Still, why shouldn't we hold the students to OUR level of fitness? We have shooting standards that must be met. Why not add subjective physical standards too? |
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Most of the courses I teach do require a PT test just to get in, as required by the clients. Most federal positions require the student to meet FLETC standards as well. I think for that purpose, it should be mandatory.
Here are the problems I see on the civilian side by requiring a PT standard of the students: -who mandates it? There is no law for a CCW course or a SUT course for PT standards. If enforced and you have to kick a student out, even if through no fault of the student (injury, external circumstances...) are you opening yourself up to a lawsuit? -who determines the standard? The instructor? Then what if you go to another instructor and they don't recognize that cert because it wasn't their standards? (this already happens with basic shooting courses...) -Liability: does the instructor's insurance cover it? does the instructor have the proper qualifications & training to administer a PT test? Does the Range allow it/covered for it? -How do you quantify the results of the PT test into improved performance? Can anyone improve their PT in a 1 day, even a 1 week course that will alone improve their shooting? For me, the answer for these is simple. .gov or the client have answered those questions. Applying them to a civilian class, I don't know. |
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Hmmmm. True. No easy answer there. Other than to say as instructors, you should hold yourself to the highest standard, that your studs will aspire to.
Also as a voluntary initiative, you could offer PT courses, like Max does, through training peaks. I'm doing one now and its kicking my ass. But I know when I show up for the RC this spring, I'll be bringing it. |
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He's been mentioned here before and I'm a fan of his methodology. Pat Mac's Combat Strength Training is a great program. http://combatstrengthtraining.com/
He's just really started dedicated time into running this class and the book. I can't find a better approach to combat fitness than this. Even the Ranger Athlete Warrior program, while designed specifically for their mission set & optempo, has its flaws. Mac does mix PT & shooting with the Stratus Events. https://se2a.splashthat.com/ (I don't know if HE designes them or just a consultant/supporter) One year I'll make it to one. |
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If you want to discuss the virtues of a class you took or the value of a certain training, that is OK. When you work as a mod/staff in the company's website and come here to do this is sure doesn't pass the smell test as unbiased and objective.
This, along with the number of threads started by MVT, is in my opinion spamming and advertising for your company. Please, refrain from posting any more similar threads for MVT |