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I am new to AKs.   I picked up on auction a US assembled "on a Romanian" build kit M85 in 5.56x45 AK pattern under folder.   The small builder was F & A Firearms in TX, now no longer around.    It came with one Tapco mag that works great.

I ordered a batch of Zastava Arms ZPAP85, which claimed to fit a Romainian build.  But the mag release is too low, pushing the mag too high into the receiver.  Is there a way to ID what build this really is?

With Tapco shut down, is there another mag for the M85 variant that is similar to that one?   OR is it better to just modify the AK mag release to mimic what is needed for the mags that are available?

Input is appreciated!


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/377736/IMG_3777_jpg-2966364.JPG

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Tapco only made 223 galil mags, never any other kind of AK mag- depending on how the conversion was done (what markings are on the receiver?) if it is a Romanian 7.62x39 underfolder receiver with a welded up ejector to work with 223, it likely will take steel Galil mags or the polymer Promag Galil mags

I will see if I can take a quick look at my 223 AK mags compared to a galil mag tomorrow and see where the rear catch is located.

Sven
Manticore Arms

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If it will accept the Galil mag then it has a 7.62x39 mag well. The Galil mags have to be modified to fit into any other kind of mag well - too wide at the front for anything but a 7.62x39/AKM mag well.

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Yugo M85s will run Galil mags with no modifications to the magwell

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I am not sure I am following- how would the mag release being too low not make the mag too low, but rather put the mag too high into the receiver?  Or are you saying the tab on the rear of the M85 mag is too low, and that is causing the rear of the M85 sgteel mag to sit too high and the bolt to hit it?

Once I have a better understanding of the issue I may be able to give some advice, as I have a number of 223 caliber aks that take all sorts of mags.

Sven
Manticore Arms

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@helocat

Can you post some pics of the rifle and the ZPAP mags in the magwell ?

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If it will accept the Galil mag then it has a 7.62x39 mag well. The Galil mags have to be modified to fit into any other kind of mag well - too wide at the front for anything but a 7.62x39/AKM mag well.

I use the AC Unity magazines with my Saiga .223 without issue, and the Saiga .223 has a 7.62x39 mag well. Even though these mags are a little undersized for the 7.62x39 mag well, I have had zero function issue with them.

They will be a little bit hard to insert the first few times. The locking lugs will bite a little dimple out of the top forward edge of the front ribi. It's fine, cosmetic. The rear tab on the magazine then will either fit fine, or may need to be manually engaged with the catch a few times before it shaves a tiny bit of material off of the "alloy" (it's zinc) tab.

These are the least expensive 5.56 AK mag out there today and still great quality, so worth a try.

It looks like you're around Bend/Redmond... Too bad I didn't see this post earlier. I'm visiting family there right now and would have brought some stuff for you to test fit into it.

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serbian and romanian 223 aks are not compatible. its very common to misqoute the type of ak you need parts and mags for. verify its a 223 zastava made in serbia not romania is step one. or else help us id what you have.

heres the break down of 223 ak mags. the 762x39 and 5.45 ak mags are mostly all interchangable but 223 is opposite and country to country basis.

223 mags dont even interchange between polytech and norinco aks. norinco uses a magwell design where tromix used to easily modify bulgarian 223 mags to work.

polytech uses a 223 mag where both unmodified and slightly modified galil mags can work. valmet 223 mags are unique also. romanian 223 mags are copied from and fully interchangable with east german surplus weiger 940 series 223 mags which were surplused around the time of the design.

bulgarian 223 mags work in romanian 223 guns generally but if they fit too tightly just remove the excess overhand of plastic at top of mags as they interchange nicely. romy guns often have pinched mag wells from century and need loosened up with about 2 whacks with a 3/8 punch and heavy hammer to properly fit their factory mags.

ive seen south african galil mags made from plastic which were extremely rare and expensive before serbia copied them in recent years which are hard to tell apart.

i collected ak mags 20 years starting in 1991 so ive had every type of ak mag ever seen in western world just about up until i moved on to collecting other things decade or so ago. rarest 223 ak mag i ever had was made from a stoner 63 design. had some aluminum prototype designs from galils also.

if you get an ak i would personally stick with 545 or 762x39 and save the 223 caliber ammo for non ak designs. best 223 ak is said to be the m90/m95 yugo due to controlability accuracy etc. m85 is a shortened copy of that which is decent and fun.

the 545 and 762x39 were dedicated military main rifles for decades where as most 223 ak guns were caliber conversions of 762x39 guns where they left parts heavy and clunky and didnt put alot of work into in order to export or rush to service. not all but mostly.

yugo serbian not so much but its still not as fast handling, light and controllable as some more common 223 ar designs so thats why ak collectors and shooters often fight over the topic. one guy will say my galil is so awesome and another guy already moved on and says yeah whatever i had one like that.
2

Quoted:  serbian and romanian 223 aks are not compatible. its very common to misqoute the type of ak you need parts and mags for. verify its a 223 zastava made in serbia not romania is step one. or else help us id what you have.

heres the break down of 223 ak mags. the 762x39 and 5.45 ak mags are mostly all interchangable but 223 is opposite and country to country basis.

223 mags dont even interchange between polytech and norinco aks. norinco uses a magwell design where tromix used to easily modify bulgarian 223 mags to work.

polytech uses a 223 mag where both unmodified and slightly modified galil mags can work. valmet 223 mags are unique also. romanian 223 mags are copied from and fully interchangable with east german surplus weiger 940 series 223 mags which were surplused around the time of the design.

bulgarian 223 mags work in romanian 223 guns generally but if they fit too tightly just remove the excess overhand of plastic at top of mags as they interchange nicely. romy guns often have pinched mag wells from century and need loosened up with about 2 whacks with a 3/8 punch and heavy hammer to properly fit their factory mags.

ive seen south african galil mags made from plastic which were extremely rare and expensive before serbia copied them in recent years which are hard to tell apart.

i collected ak mags 20 years starting in 1991 so ive had every type of ak mag ever seen in western world just about up until i moved on to collecting other things decade or so ago. rarest 223 ak mag i ever had was made from a stoner 63 design. had some aluminum prototype designs from galils also.

if you get an ak i would personally stick with 545 or 762x39 and save the 223 caliber ammo for non ak designs. best 223 ak is said to be the m90/m95 yugo due to controlability accuracy etc. m85 is a shortened copy of that which is decent and fun.

the 545 and 762x39 were dedicated military main rifles for decades where as most 223 ak guns were caliber conversions of 762x39 guns where they left parts heavy and clunky and didnt put alot of work into in order to export or rush to service. not all but mostly.

yugo serbian not so much but its still not as fast handling, light and controllable as some more common 223 ar designs so thats why ak collectors and shooters often fight over the topic. one guy will say my galil is so awesome and another guy already moved on and says yeah whatever i had one like that.

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It's definitely a Yugo M85 kit, not Romanian.

Personally I'd replace the mag catch before I started grinding on 11 mags. But I'm not clear if the catch is too short or too long for the Zastava mags. I have the same rifle except mine has an ugly barrel extension attached. All I have are steel mags so no experience with the polymer Zastava mags

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I would have someone familiar with AKs check that thing over really well. Some questionable build practices can be seen. That welded magazine catch axle is sickening.

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I modified galil mags for my zastava85 until AC Unity came out with their poly mags.

Did a dozen or so.
The front tab will need welded up then milled/filed down to feed right on the bottom side of the lip facing the bottom of the mag.

Galil mags sit bullet point down in Z85 and won't really show until the last 5-3 rounds.

Get some dummy rounds and check 5 rounds in the mag when modding.

If all 5 feed without diving into the feed ramp/barrel and jamming the round into the case yer G2G
The other 25 stacked on top will feed fine.
Same with the 50 rnd galil mags.

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There are some interesting things going on with that build

Missing a front trunnion rivet on both sides

Something extra that some may have noticed

Not sure where this thread may go but good luck with the mags

Eta: nevermind I see that you are on the special persons list

Do the Zastava magazines lock in at all?

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Z mags do not lock in.  The mag catch is too long by about 0.100”.   Any feed back on how its built or missing things would be appreciated.   I already plan to take it down to raw components, sandblast the nasty rubbery cheep paint the receiver is coated in.  We have in-house commercial Cerakoting so will finish it that way.    That will be the time to cut/weld/rivet what ever gunsmithing blacksmithing is needed to get it set up right.  

Yes I have done all the registrations, inspections and applications for my business.  It does allow me to acquire transfers from other 07/02s that are closing up shop.  This is one.  But just becouse it was built and properly registered on the NFA list, certenly does not mean they built it correctly. So please any feed back is appreciated.

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Sorry yes the mag release on the Z magazine is pushing the mag up, so it caches the bolt going forward.





Newberg OR actualy.   However was just in Bend last weekend.

Here are some photos of the M85

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/377736/IMG_3796_jpeg-2966735.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/377736/IMG_3793_jpeg-2966736.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/377736/IMG_3790_jpeg-2966739.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/377736/IMG_3792_jpeg-2966742.JPG

Has some nasty paint build up on it.  Can't wait to strip it down and Cerikote it.  But it does run with no issues right now with the one Tapco mag.  (Its on a Form 3 I am a 07/02)

So cut down the z Mags?  I bought 11 of them and have  $230+ into them.  Its not much difference in the mag catch but enough to not seat.  

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at this point OP, you may think about doing a rebuild on this if you want to keep it. Missing rivets, welded parts that shouldn't be welded, magazines designed for it won't fit....I hate to think what else may be wrong with it when you do get it working. Or remove from registry, chop up and sell as parts.

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When it comes to AK stuff - I'd seriously listen to this man!

Bigger_Hammer

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Who manufactured the receiver?

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appreciate it man, but there are much more knowledgeable people than me here with more practical knowledge. I've failed so many times I've learned a few things, that's all I have.

For the OP, I'm not trying to be a defeatist, I just think that maybe whoever built it may have cut a lot of corners. There have been a ton of dicey AK builds posted here over the years, and if they haven't been chopped for parts, they've been rebuilt properly, except that 1 screw build, and that one made from a shovel.  Those were marvels of modern ingenuity that somehow kept on going.

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Mind mentioning who the original manufacturer was who did that build?  

(As I would like to stay away from them when acquiring stuff on my SOT…)

If it runs, I would probably just fix the mag catch issue.  Clearly they did not know what they were doing.  All the issues would bother me though.

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I was gonna say something about it just being an SBR until I saw the sear. If you have an SOT, you'd still be better off making a new one from a well built M85, but that's just like my opinion man.


My point is, if someone is willing to take the shortcuts that were made with that one, who knows what else they didn't do right. At a minimum,  find a new trigger guard with mag release, have an AK Smith install it, and that will probably solve your issue with the mags.

And no, that M85 is not in the same category as an old Bronco.

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Nodak receivers are good quality. Before Childers and Recreator rolled around, Nodak was the gold standard US made AK receiver.

They did have some issues with rust on the center support and rails at one point (and this wasn't on every receiver they made) due to lack of a full cleanse after oil quenching, but structurally they are sound and they are fully heat treated - important for a FA build.

Any of the assembly "errors" should be able to be resolved without cutting up the receiver.

My guess is that the builder thought that only two rivets were sufficient on the front trunnion given the additional thickness of the RPK type receiver used by many Yugo stamped AKs, but it would be an odd choice to make - never heard of anyone doing that. They also may have done it so that the barrel could be headspaced and pinned into the trunnion before assembly to the receiver, since the upper rivets can only be properly crushed with the barrel not installed or only partially installed. In either case it's a lazy shortcut.